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Charge Controllers and Clippers => The "KID" charge controller => Topic started by: jbeecher on December 06, 2017, 05:40:25 PM

Title: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: jbeecher on December 06, 2017, 05:40:25 PM
Hey everyone new here searched for this topic didnt find my solution so thought I would start a new thread. I am having the hardest time finding a portable generator that has a 2 wire electronic start with kill switch. Any recommendations on what portable generator will work with the kid I only need 25 30 amps.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 06, 2017, 08:38:37 PM
The KID will control an AGS ! But the AGS is a separate unit that can be tailored for different engines (Benzine / Diesel /CNG /LPG ) All have a different starting & shut down sequence .
The kids AUX wires to start a genset without a AGS won't work .

If I missing what your asking , ?
VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: jbeecher on December 06, 2017, 09:18:16 PM
According to Midnight they say as long as it has a 2 wire start and stop switch it can be wired in With an open close relay . If that is the case that I need a seperate module what kind do I get that will easily wire in. And what generator would work well for that configuration I am looking to use an lp generator I already have a Champion duel fuel generator model 76533 but midnight said I could not use it because the switch was too complex it has 5 wires protruding from the starter switch that has an on off start function. The off is an off just for the electric start feature and does not kill the motor. The manufacturer made it where you have tp switch off fuel to cut the engine.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: ClassicCrazy on December 06, 2017, 10:37:22 PM
Quote from: jbeecher on December 06, 2017, 09:18:16 PM
According to Midnight they say as long as it has a 2 wire start and stop switch it can be wired in With an open close relay . If that is the case that I need a seperate module what kind do I get that will easily wire in. And what generator would work well for that configuration I am looking to use an lp generator I already have a Champion duel fuel generator model 76533 but midnight said I could not use it because the switch was too complex it has 5 wires protruding from the starter switch that has an on off start function. The off is an off just for the electric start feature and does not kill the motor. The manufacturer made it where you have tp switch off fuel to cut the engine.

I suppose you could try putting in a solenoid on the fuel line if you can figure out the wiring for it . 
Larry
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 07, 2017, 02:06:56 AM

I suppose you could try putting in a solenoid on the fuel line if you can figure out the wiring for it . 
Larry
[/quote]
Yea & cause a fire with a starter that won't stop cranking !
Glow plugs , don't get heated , the list just go's on&ON . B4 posting
THINK IT THRU ! B4 posting help that some might take to heart.
VT

an AGS is a Automatic Generator Start  (SYSTEM) Now for real A kid uses DC , So now you need a trimming Gen not to fool with the KID & Voltage .
Real Inverters can Sync in ACV or if your a real DC generator , then a battery monitor that can work with a AGS might work .

Your in a manual system as I see it jbeecher

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: jbeecher on December 07, 2017, 09:42:36 AM
Yeah wasn’t planning on following Larrys advice. So I looked up a trimming gen and found no results on google so confused by that. I dont see why this has to be so complicated. The kid has a feature built in now I dont know about older models but the new on can detect your batteries voltage you can set your generator to start at a certain voltage and run a minimum or maximum amout of time. And then when a certain voltage is reached it will close or open the circuit of the relay you attach to the 2 wire start. This application does not have to work with my current generator just want to know like midnight claims it does on page 41 of the.manual. Has anyone done this successfully with a generator? Or does this whole thing thay midnight claims thier charge controller can do is false. 
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: ClassicCrazy on December 07, 2017, 10:02:32 AM
ha ha - it was just an idea if a guy wanted to hack it to work - of course you would need appropriate safeties ( like if solenoid is closed then don't try to start !)   

Here is a device gen start box
http://www.atkinsonelectronics.com/manufacturing/product_pdfs/gscm-mini-i.pdf

Larry


Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 07, 2017, 11:55:42 AM
Quote from: jbeecher on December 07, 2017, 09:42:36 AM
Yeah wasn’t planning on following Larrys advice. So I looked up a trimming gen and found no results on google 

Good on that !
Trimming Gen is a DC generator that has a voltage /currant regulator  on it.
Large semis 18 wheeler type had them years ago .
http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_products/alt_search.php

As Larry posted , that AGS Module is wired as shown there with an outback , same as the KID will do.
It is much more than the KID closing a switch , some Honda units & Yamaha i do believe have a 2 wire built in system (ags is built into there electronics)

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: jbeecher on December 07, 2017, 12:14:45 PM
I did look into Honda and called them and they told me that none nof their generators are capable of ags but that does not mean someone didnt do it with an after market ags module I did some research and found that magnum has a stand alone that will work with Honda. Only problem is the price point for a Honda 3000is is pretty high you mentioned Yamaha fo you know of a portable uniy yhat will work having a hard time finding one.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: ClassicCrazy on December 07, 2017, 12:25:36 PM
Roy built his own
https://youtu.be/BlaOlflKqXM

Larry
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 07, 2017, 08:32:11 PM
Roy did a Nice Job & it was pretty cool

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Shade on December 18, 2017, 10:47:15 PM
have u seen morningstar relay. can be programmed with computer.

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/8912555/morningstar-corporation/charge-controller-accessories/morningstar-corporation-rd-1-relay-driver
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 18, 2017, 11:10:58 PM
Quote from: Shade on December 18, 2017, 10:47:15 PM
have u seen morningstar relay. can be programmed with computer.

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/8912555/morningstar-corporation/charge-controller-accessories/morningstar-corporation-rd-1-relay-driver

Why pay 150 for a maybe , or 160 for a AGS

https://www.solar-electric.com/schneider-electric-auto-generator-start.html

These have controls for over temp  or cool down time  ETC : Info to read https://41j5tc3akbrn3uezx5av0jj1bgm-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Conext-AGS-Owners-Guide975-0307-01-01_Rev-G_ENG.pdf

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Shade on December 19, 2017, 12:17:55 PM
Quote from: CDN-VT on December 18, 2017, 11:10:58 PM
Quote from: Shade on December 18, 2017, 10:47:15 PM
have u seen morningstar relay. can be programmed with computer.

https://www.wholesalesolar.com/8912555/morningstar-corporation/charge-controller-accessories/morningstar-corporation-rd-1-relay-driver

Why pay 150 for a maybe , or 160 for a AGS

https://www.solar-electric.com/schneider-electric-auto-generator-start.html

These have controls for over temp  or cool down time  ETC : Info to read https://41j5tc3akbrn3uezx5av0jj1bgm-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Conext-AGS-Owners-Guide975-0307-01-01_Rev-G_ENG.pdf

VT

schneider uses Network ports for there controller.  morningstar is more universal any1 can use as gen start or a relay.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 19, 2017, 07:11:59 PM
I reread the manual on that RD-1 Relay Driver
I have a few Morningstar SS300 & a few charge controls , with the meter bus adapter .
I found the menu system hard to work with & reading the RD-1 it falls in the same area for me.
I have learn't Midnite / Outback & now  Schneider systems .

I see what you mean about the RD-1 , but if the genset hasn't got a remote function built in , then Im thinking Diesel first (cuz Auto chokes only on fuel injected Gas) adding one is $$


Right now Im on a genset since 04:30 this morning ..
It couldn't wait till  over Westbranch to drop the white stuff !! Trees down & 8" so far.

VT 
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Shade on December 20, 2017, 02:17:31 PM
Quote from: CDN-VT on December 19, 2017, 07:11:59 PM
I reread the manual on that RD-1 Relay Driver
I have a few Morningstar SS300 & a few charge controls , with the meter bus adapter .
I found the menu system hard to work with & reading the RD-1 it falls in the same area for me.
I have learn't Midnite / Outback & now  Schneider systems .

I see what you mean about the RD-1 , but if the genset hasn't got a remote function built in , then Im thinking Diesel first (cuz Auto chokes only on fuel injected Gas) adding one is $$


Right now Im on a genset since 04:30 this morning ..
It couldn't wait till  over Westbranch to drop the white stuff !! Trees down & 8" so far.

VT

im thinking propane as he has a Champion duel fuel. some gens using propane no choke is needed. still collecting my solar parts but have it worked out what i want an duel fuel gen is one.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 20, 2017, 10:26:15 PM
Well my Propane ones do have chokes .
One has it's own AGS system Genorac

http://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guardian-series/22kw-7043-whole-house-switch

They have a choking  system under the air filter .
As for my Yamaha
https://pumpbiz.com/ef3000iseb-inverter-generator-3kw-ef30isebj-power-boost-3000w

It was before the AGS system they had , so I pull a choke & it starts .

That system with the AGS has internal auto choke & temp sensing .

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: RossW on December 22, 2017, 07:09:42 PM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on December 07, 2017, 12:25:36 PM
Roy built his own

Ross did too. It was only ever meant to be a "short-term" thing. Genset was supposed to be replaced with a fuelcell inside 5 years, but... well history tells what happened to that technology.

http://house.albury.net.au/genset.htm (http://house.albury.net.au/genset.htm)
My controller, built almost 13 years ago now, is still running quite happily. Takes a 2-wire control from my inverter (pretty much anything will do it). It also sends back a "Generator available" line to the inverter so it knows when it's unavailable due to (for example) being serviced.

Based on an AT-MEGA (was readily available in the day). Does all the sequencing, fuel control, cranking control, monitoring engine RPM, output frequency, oil pressure, water temperature in 3 places (in, head, out), controls the water circulating pump, etc. Also conveniently keeps track of accumulated hours, number of starts etc.

There are controllers on ebay etc for $peanuts that do most of this stuff too now. (They weren't back then)
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on December 22, 2017, 11:20:55 PM
@RossW

Got any line from the E-bay sellers
It would be good for the thread

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: KevinSalyer on September 04, 2018, 03:07:44 AM
My experience is that people want (a) easy and (b) cheap.so I'll focus on portable units.
Where are you going to (1) store your generator (2) set up the generator to use it? Remember, it may be severe weather so, where could you put it to keep it safe and be able to refuel it easily? If you're using power cords, will they be dry and as far out of the way as possible?
Small generators (less than 5500 watts) or portable trailer type generator (https://www.dieselgeneratortech.com/trailer-genset/) can only do so much. If you overload the unit and damage it, you won't have any power at all. So be smart! Portable units are made up to almost 20k watts but they're not for people on budgets.
The bottom line is to add up the load (watts) you plan to connect and size your generator at least 25% higher. When motors like the compressor in the refrigerator start up there is a sudden draw of power higher than the normal running load and you want to compensate for that.
Small appliances will have the wattage marked on them. Lighting circuits will be less than 1200 watts each. Water heater is 4500 watts alone.
Also,you'll truly get what you pay for...unless you buy from one of those guys selling from the back of their pick-up truck (don't do that). Don't wait till the last minute or you'll be stuck with whatever is left in the stores.
Oh, and the "trick" with connecting the generator to the dryer outlet to backfeed the house? DON'T YOU DARE!! It will result in damage and/or injury...


Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on November 10, 2018, 09:16:47 PM
Im currently using the AGS feature of one of my Kid controllers. I wired in a cheap, Chinese dual fuel generator- any gen will work with this controller. I used a Datakom gen controller ($100) in conjunction with the AGS featureI also made an automatic transfer switch for less than 20 bucks. If anyone is interested I can post pics and a diagram. I posted pics a year ago and it gained no interest.  I run propane only and it absolutely must be choked at cool to cold ambient temps to start. The datakom controller I use has a choke feature that can be programmed how long it is applied. I used a Cummins shutdown solinoid as a choke actuator.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on November 10, 2018, 09:19:53 PM
I've been using this set up for over 3 years with 0 failures. I live completely off grid.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: ClassicCrazy on November 11, 2018, 12:02:35 AM
Quote from: Rwbain on November 10, 2018, 09:16:47 PM
Im currently using the AGS feature of one of my Kid controllers. I wired in a cheap, Chinese dual fuel generator- any gen will work with this controller. I used a Datakom gen controller ($100) in conjunction with the AGS featureI also made an automatic transfer switch for less than 20 bucks. If anyone is interested I can post pics and a diagram. I posted pics a year ago and it gained no interest.  I run propane only and it absolutely must be choked at cool to cold ambient temps to start. The datakom controller I use has a choke feature that can be programmed how long it is applied. I used a Cummins shutdown solinoid as a choke actuator.

Sure I would be interested in seeing your AGS controller set up - thanks !

Larry
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: grgdgreek on November 11, 2018, 05:17:04 AM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on November 11, 2018, 12:02:35 AM
Quote from: Rwbain on November 10, 2018, 09:16:47 PM
Im currently using the AGS feature of one of my Kid controllers. I wired in a cheap, Chinese dual fuel generator- any gen will work with this controller. I used a Datakom gen controller ($100) in conjunction with the AGS featureI also made an automatic transfer switch for less than 20 bucks. If anyone is interested I can post pics and a diagram. I posted pics a year ago and it gained no interest.  I run propane only and it absolutely must be choked at cool to cold ambient temps to start. The datakom controller I use has a choke feature that can be programmed how long it is applied. I used a Cummins shutdown solinoid as a choke actuator.

Sure I would be interested in seeing your AGS controller set up - thanks !




Larry


Me 2!
George
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on November 13, 2018, 12:58:17 PM
I have to hike to a better area for service today , but the pics I posted are still on here. I can post more of the "build" or details of the wiring if anyone would like. If you look under the Owner Installed section (or whatever it's calked) I still have pics up. Under Rwbain or Sagle, I'd I believe. 
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Vic on November 13, 2018, 01:35:12 PM
For some reason,   previous Posts from Rwbain,   in other Threads do not appear when uses the "Show Posts" button under that username.

Link to the previous Thread,   FWIW:
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=3708.0

Vic
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on November 13, 2018, 01:56:49 PM
I can view the pics from my old account under the owners pictures section..? I'm getting ready for a snow so i won't be able to do much in the next couple days!
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on November 13, 2018, 02:02:24 PM
Sagle, Id. under Owner Installed Systems..sorry I lose Internet every 10 seconds. .
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on November 23, 2018, 09:30:20 PM
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=3708.0

Nice work !
VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on November 27, 2018, 11:54:50 PM
Thank you very much! Larry and George I will put up more detailed pics of the actual wiring and diagrams if you'd like. Datakom makes some really neat, affordable components.  This does way more than the Magnum generator controller and costs less than half the price.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on November 29, 2018, 01:56:25 AM
Please  Sir .
We all learn here

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on December 17, 2018, 02:30:42 AM
Ags
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on December 17, 2018, 03:13:13 AM
Hopefully the image went through. The genset drawing is on the left and the Datakom controller to the right. Obviously the 3 relays are Bosch cube style at the lower portion of the image. The generator key switch is called "ENGINE SWITCH" in the drawing (I copied and pasted a section of the manual's schematic ). I don't use the FUEL  SOLENOID valve on mine. It's nothing more than an ANTI DIESEL or ANTI BACKFIRE valve that closes only during shutdown. Mine hardly farts when it shuts down without it being activated so no big deal. the generator I installed this on is a Smarter Tools ST-GP7500DEB. It's a cheap , Chinese dual fuel 7500 watt electric start generator. I actually wired mine a little different.  I used a time delay relay and an audible alarm that flashes for 3 seconds prior to cranking. I also use the Emergency Stop circuit with 3 latching push button switches (mushroom style) . You don't have to spend a bunch of money on a generator or generator controller to use the AGS function of your KID. The Datakom controller pictured is now a little over $60.00 US. Hopefully someone can use this. I can answer any questions if anyone needs. It's obviously very simple. I connected my wiring before I knew I had a schematic in the manual by ringing out the wires- point being, it will work on darn near ANY  cheapo gen and even the overpriced ones (generac or genercrap  as mechanics in the EPG field call them).
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on December 17, 2018, 03:26:14 AM
Also a mag pickup isn't needed. It stops cranking when it senses very little AC current from the line voltage of the generator itself. My starter drops out immediately after it fires.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: tecnodave on December 28, 2018, 10:36:31 AM
Ray,

Thanks for sharing generator starter info. I went to Datacom but can't quite figure out which model you are using. The best one is not for sales in USA or Canada?



Someone asked if the battery charge current can be set on the MagnaSine ,and someone else suggested that this can be done through the AC input current limit.  Yes it can be done that way but this will limit the total output ( pass through) power as well as the battery charge current. A much better way is to set maximum battery charge current through the ME-ARC controller. It does not accept an amps value but rather a percent of full capacity. I need to do this as my MagnaSine can output 105 amps when run with a split phase input but only 52.5 amps when energised with 120 volts.

I use dual generators , primary is Onan Emerald 4,  120 volt 4.0 kW  gasoline burner
  Big boy is a Onan MH-3  6.6 kW 120/240 volt   Burning wood gas (methane)

I need to reset max current down to 50 % when using 120/240 input as 105 amps is a bit much for L-16 format batteries, unless I have both banks connected.

David
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on December 29, 2018, 09:36:01 PM
I'm using a Datakom DKG-116 . They make several versions including Automatic Transfer Switches, Synch. Switches, etc. AMAZON.COM - The DKG 116 is under $75.00 now. It is a 12 volt unit, but they have many others too. AMAZON is also where I purchased my Cummins shutdown solenoid that I use for a choke accuator.
-Rw
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on January 04, 2019, 10:39:24 PM
Trying to post pics of how i made a Transfer switch from a DPDT contactor with 120v switching coil and a SPDT with 12v switching coil. The "ATS" is controlled by manual switches in the cabin(toggle and timer) and by the Aux contacts of the KID . Works great for years now. Im only switching one leg of the gen (120v) and the neutral. I didnt include the A/C grounds for ease of viewing. The DPDT contactor (relay) was about 4 bucks (i bought a bunch for spares) and the SPDT is a high amp bosch style that was about the same price maybe less. The second Contactor in the picture i installed in the grey box , is to open the PV circuit to the charge controller when the generator is charging. I thought maybe there would be an issue if the battery charger and the kid were charging at the same time.My battery charger is an Iota 55 amp if i remember correctly . It could be 45 Amp but ive seen it go over 60 with my Ammeter/shunt set up. hopefully it posts ok. This Transfer switch is used in conjunction with my Datakom generator controller. Havent had any issues in several years with its operation.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on January 04, 2019, 10:48:48 PM
Pics of ATS & contrlr
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on January 04, 2019, 11:03:55 PM
pics
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: CDN-VT on January 05, 2019, 12:27:03 AM
Thanks Ray

VT
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: grgdgreek on January 05, 2019, 02:11:08 PM
Nice!! Thank you:-)
George.
Title: Re: AGS and generators that work with it.
Post by: Rwbain on January 06, 2019, 05:29:05 PM
Oh...i was just looking through the Midnite Kid's manual and it shows the AUX terminals as being pos(+) and neg(-).. I thought these contacts were "dry contacts" and isolated. My original schematics i drew in pencil and honestly i kinda did them sloppy. It would have made a lot more sense if the contacts were dry, and i could have swore they were! But only slight chsnges would be made from my diagram from the kid portion to make the connections (Obviosly).