My batteries will ship next week. Eight "solar industrial" SIND 06 920 flooded lead-acid batteries at over 300 Lbs each (140+ kg). They will come on a tractor-trailer truck operated by Trojan. Depending on day and time they get here I might have lots of help plus heavy equipment to move them something over 250 meters to the basement door or I might have to use a hand truck for a fair distance. In either event there will be no lifting.
The weight would be OK on a hand truck if I can lean back to the balance point, but they'll be seriously awkward if I try to keep them more upright on the gravel surfaces. I'm concerned about leaking electrolyte while tilted to the balance point.
Any ideas or experiences?
While typing this, I realized that I can probably put a piece of tape over the caps' vent holes for the 10-minute journey. I'd put a polyurethane circle directly over the hole to reduce the amount of adhesive that the electrolyte would dissolve. Problems with this idea?
I've moved other batteries, but never bigger than an L-16.
Thanks for any help or guidance.
modified this to say the batteries are NOT on a truck operated by Trojan. That's what the person at AltE store said. They are on a regular trucking company truck.
I don't think you would have to worry about adhesive from the small vent holes in the caps since they are pretty small. Instead of a hand truck maybe you could put some movers dollies under the batteries so you don't have to tip them so much
? Like these https://www.harborfreight.com/30-in-x-18-in-1000-lbs-capacity-hardwood-dolly-61897.html
they say they handle 1000 pounds but would probably have to lay down plywood or boards if you have to go over gravel or dirt .
Larry
Hi DEinME,
The main battery banks here use a very similar battery, by weight and dimensions: 24 3/4" tall, 315 Lbs. The height really helps one reasonable human to have quite a lot of leverage to tilt the hand truck back to the balance point.
Have always used a hand truck to do so, but replaced the industry-standard caps with Water Miser (tm) caps, which have small vent holes at the top, rather than on the sides. Used these caps for the same reason that you stated -- there was no spillage at all.
We needed to move one battery bank to a different part of the property, and was able to push the hand truck up an eight foot ramp from the ground into the bed of a full size pickup, easy, peasy.
Hope that the ground (road ?) over which you will be moving these batteries is fairly level, as rough terrain, or slopes could make for some difficulty in controlling the hand truck.
FWIW, Vic
Thanks both for your replies.
The dolly could be a good idea for some places but my driveway is not groomed to a standard that would allow those little wheels to pass easily. With a heavy battery, it would be nerve-wracking. Plus there's better than 50% chance that the tractor with forks will be here, so I'd rather not purchase stuff just in case.
The driveway is not steep. In the first 100 meters it declines about 1.3 meters then over the next 100 meters it climbs those 1.3 meters again. Then there's another gentle decline then incline to the basement door. The batteries on hand-truck tires would make for some exercise but shouldn't get out of control if I can tilt to the balance point.
I have wondered recently how much distilled I'll use each quarter for this larger battery bank. Water Miser caps may be a good idea for the handling too.
Again, thanks to both of you.
Hi DEinME,
FWIW, I have found Water Miser vent caps to be of absolutely NO use in reducing water consumption -- although the caps that we are using are of the short variety. That was the only model that our suppliers offered. One of the main battery banks here has had WM caps since their move, as noted above. Ran half of the other bank with WMs and the standard caps on the rest -- no noticeable difference. Did NOT try swapping one half for the other, but really have seen no difference ...
Have read, elsewhere, that there are three heights available, at least as a direct order to the manufacturer. It is possible that taller WM caps could (possibly) result in some reduction in water consumption.
One other thing about the WM caps here, is, that they seem to get plugged a bit, and some whistle at times during late Absorb, and in EQ.
I DO believe that they will help eliminate spillage during a hand truck battery move.
Have seen reports that a number of Trojan RE and IND batteries are "reluctant gassers". Meaning, that Absorb and EQ voltages may need to be at the upper range of recommended Absorb and EQ voltages, or beyond, with Solar charging (fewer charging hours, verses Grid charging).
Good Luck, Vic
Thanks for your experience with the caps. Reading other reviews online I've decided not to buy any yet.
The spec sheet for these batteries says bulk or absorb charging should be at 2.4V per cell (or 14.4 for 12 volt nominal or 57.6 for 48 volt nominal). That's lower than other batteries I've seen.
The longer water miser caps are for bigger batteries I think because they bubble more vigorously under charge so higher height to the top cap. They don't have any different amount of catalyst in them. They do get all black grungy and plugged over time - but if you read the specs it says to not leave them closed during equalize - which is a pain to have to open them especially if you have auto equalize. I think leaving the caps closed during equalize it what plugs them up faster. The other thing I found bad with the taller caps is that the draw tube on my battery wasn't long enough to reach the electrolyte unless they were topped off way up near the top.
These are the taller ones - they also have two other shorter sizes.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Miser-Caps-Extended-Height-For-Solar-Energy-Batteries/320866528607?hash=item4ab522ad5f%3Ag%3A-UsAAOxy1VlREz5U&_sacat=0&_nkw=water+miser+caps&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0
Also make sure you push them hard to close them to make sure they snap shut tight. Another thing is you really need a flashlight to see in the cells when watering to see that the distilled water is to the top of the split rings when you have those tall caps on. An investment in one of those battery watering cans that only put in the right amount might be a good investment .
I am not convinced they are worth the money even though I used them on my last two sets of batteries. A friend had acid splattering all over the top of his cells and it was because the holes in the top of his hycrocaps were plugged and not venting right. He got new ones and all that splattering went away.
Just some things I noticed using water miser caps . I now have gel batteries and gotta say it is nice I don't have to mess around with all the watering and acid and taking SG readings. I am just hoping they last as long as they are supposed to - performance better in very cold weather is part of reason I got them - they are lead crystal type and not supposed to sulfate. Time will tell I guess.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on July 22, 2018, 10:44:56 PM.....I now have gel batteries and gotta say it is nice I don't have to mess around with all the watering and acid and taking SG readings. I am just hoping they last as long as they are supposed to - performance better in very cold weather is part of reason I got them - they are lead crystal type and not supposed to sulfate.......
If they are GEL, you are up the creek, Gel batteries need a slow trickle charge. For UPS, exit lights, that sort of thing.
If they are AGM and you are erroneously calling them Gel, call them by their right name. AGM can be recharged fast and hard, up till a certain voltage, and then they start madly gassing, cases swell and H & O2 vent (causing an irreversable loss of capacity)
Gel is electrolyte that has silica added to make it like jello. Fast charging causes gas pockets to form and they never go away, reducing capacity.
AGM is stuffed full of fiber glass mat material, and then liquid acid is added. The glass keeps the liquid from flowing out of a cracked case, but charging, gasses can vent to the top of the case where some re-combiner catalyst drips it back down as water.
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on July 22, 2018, 10:44:56 PM
The longer water miser caps are for bigger batteries I think because they bubble more vigorously under charge so higher height to the top cap. They don't have any different amount of catalyst in them. . . .
I've read that Water Miser caps have plastic beads in them, not strictly "catalyst", mostly to keep liquid acid from splashing out from bubbles popping. Hydro Caps have metal catalyst in them to recombine H2 and O.
I am curious to see how much these batteries bubble. There will be more volume and plate area in the much larger 48V system, but the charge voltage of 57.6 is far lower voltage per cell.
Is the lower charge voltage how Trojan achieves (or claims) over 3,500 cycles to 50% DOD?
Quote from: mike90045 on July 23, 2018, 01:15:55 AM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on July 22, 2018, 10:44:56 PM.....I now have gel batteries and gotta say it is nice I don't have to mess around with all the watering and acid and taking SG readings. I am just hoping they last as long as they are supposed to - performance better in very cold weather is part of reason I got them - they are lead crystal type and not supposed to sulfate.......
If they are GEL, you are up the creek, Gel batteries need a slow trickle charge. For UPS, exit lights, that sort of thing.
If they are AGM and you are erroneously calling them Gel, call them by their right name. AGM can be recharged fast and hard, up till a certain voltage, and then they start madly gassing, cases swell and H & O2 vent (causing an irreversable loss of capacity)
Gel is electrolyte that has silica added to make it like jello. Fast charging causes gas pockets to form and they never go away, reducing capacity.
AGM is stuffed full of fiber glass mat material, and then liquid acid is added. The glass keeps the liquid from flowing out of a cracked case, but charging, gasses can vent to the top of the case where some re-combiner catalyst drips it back down as water.
Okay they do not claim to be gel - but when I have read up with them they share many of the same characteristics. Here is info on what I have
http://soneil.com/wp-content/uploads/Advance-Technology-Battery-Brochure.pdf
Larry
Hydro Caps: platinum re-combiner catalyst H / O2 gas recovery back into water. 3-5 year life
Water Miser: tiny plastic beads in a cap, designed to capture the acid mist and let it drain back into the battery. Lifetime
Water Miser caps are a waste of money. They don't work !!!
IMHO save your money and invest in a good watering system for filling you batteries. Always filled to the correctly level, no spillage, no overfilling.
According to the Trojan FAQ, their batteries can tilt as far as 22 degrees. https://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/faq/
I am frustrated right now. I ordered and paid for these batteries on June 22. That's over 6 weeks ago. Since early Thursday morning they've been about 100 miles away at an XPO Logistics terminal. They're sitting there waiting for PAF Transportation to pick them up to deliver them. According to the XPO tracking site, PAF once again didn't pick them up last night. I don't know if that's accurate or not.
In the opening of this thread I mentioned the possibility of having a tractor with forks here. It is here. I'd really like to use it and return it. I'd really like to be able to schedule activities without having to plan around an unknown delivery date that COULD be today. I'd really like to test the chargers and inverter which arrived in a damaged crate. The damage LOOKS superficial so these tests have some cliffhanger resolution for me. That also makes me wonder if PAF is not picking up the batteries because of obvious damage to the batteries. Wouldn't another 6 weeks waiting for replacement batteries be a great way to extend the suspense?
Did you try calling that transportation company ? Maybe if you talk to someone they will understand the urgency of it.
Larry
I've talked to people at both companies. The story has been that moving things along is routine and the batteries will move along. Today I got an agreement from the company that's not picking up will find out why they're not picking up.
Quote from: DEinME on August 07, 2018, 03:47:51 AM
... I am frustrated right now. I ordered and paid for these batteries on June 22. That's over 6 weeks ago. Since early Thursday morning they've been about 100 miles away at an XPO Logistics terminal. They're sitting there waiting for PAF Transportation to pick them up to deliver them. According to the XPO tracking site, PAF once again didn't pick them up last night. I don't know if that's accurate or not.
...
It is not uncommon for Industrial type batteries to be built-to-order. So, eight weeks lead time, or more is not uncommon.
If Lift gate service is needed, many times, this is sub-contracted out to a smaller local company. Often, these folks seem to delay handling the PITA type jobs (like deliveries to remote sites, or, jobs that are a bit more difficult, etc).
Would suggest that you lean on the party that accepted your funds for these batteries and the delivery charges to GET YOUR BATTERIES DELIVERED. The freight carriers that haul for your supplier, look to them for continuing business (not to you, the ultimate customer). They need to satisfy the folks that you paid.
Personally, would not assume that your new batteries have been damaged, because of this delay, although this might be the case. Guess, that the drayage company may well just be handling the easiest cargo ... assuming a lot.
I would guess that the similar Surrette batteries noted above, needed a tilt that was greater than 22-ish degrees, to reach the balance point..
Good Luck, and give 'em hell ! Vic
Thanks for everyone's comments on this. After my last post, the local company called. They don't "pull" freight from the long-distance company, the long-distance company "pushes" freight to the local company.
So I called the long-distance company again. I explained again that I don't need a liftgate and he said they'd have it here next day (today). I called the local company to thank them for their help and say they wouldn't be delivering them. I.e. no need to follow up on why they're not being delivered.
The batteries are in place. The tractor and forks made moving them easier although there was still a lot of perspiration moving them the last 10 feet and down 4 feet.
While I read the dimensions many times and checked and rechecked them to bulid 5/7 of the battery box, I was still not prepared for the large presence of these batteries. The polyethylene case does make sliding them around pretty easy.
Modified message because I should be able to write English.
Hi DEinME,
Good work! Those batteries look proud. Nice, clean install.
Please let us know how these batteries are doing, as some that we know who use the Trojan IND batteries report that they seem to need a relatively high Absorb voltage to reach target SGs, in off-grid service.
Please label each battery, and cell with a felt-tip pen -- battery number, and cell (1A, 1B, 1C, etc). Measure and record the SGs now, in a new battery Log Book. Also measure battery terminal voltages and record those.
Generally, it is a good idea to check electrolyte level, top up any cells that are very low with Distilled water, and perform a Commissioning EQ on a new battery bank, using an EQ voltage in the lower range of recommended EQ voltage.
Believe that the target SG for fully-charged cells is 1.260 for these batteries.
Once again, some have reported that these Trojan IND batteries need a higher than recommended Absorb voltages for Solar-Charged (off-grid) systems.
Thanks for the update. Please let us know how these batteries are doing, Vic
I hope there is a lid that goes on the box, to keep the acid fumes away from the electronics.
I assume a front panel will be bolted on to the front of the box after the spill cloth is gathered up.
Started charging today. Alarming when both classics started charging at 1200W then one just put out less and less then just rested. To a Midnight noob, it looked like the 2 lower strings on the roof had declining amperage then nothing. I looked at voltage and whatnot and restarted that classic. No dice; no charge. I was starting to plan debugging the whole path from the roof but eventually I turned off solar to the other classic and the dead one sprang to life. I'm sure it's in the manual somewhere, but I'd been reviewing mostly startup procedures, collecting the data I wanted to program in right away, and making sure I tested the necessary functions.
Quote from: Vic on August 08, 2018, 08:13:41 PM. . .
Please let us know how these batteries are doing, as some that we know who use the Trojan IND batteries report that they seem to need a relatively high Absorb voltage to reach target SGs, in off-grid service.
. . . and perform a Commissioning EQ on a new battery bank, using an EQ voltage in the lower range of recommended EQ voltage.
Believe that the target SG for fully-charged cells is 1.260 for these batteries.
Once again, some have reported that these Trojan IND batteries need a higher than recommended Absorb voltages for Solar-Charged (off-grid) systems.
While the target SG is low at 1.260, the recommended absorb voltage is also low at or 57.6V (data sheet) or 56.4V (Industrial Line User's Guide). The User's Guide recommends a "boost" charge once a month and before using new batteries. Boost voltage (61.92V) is lower than the recommended equalize voltage (64.8V). I wonder if the monthly boost is to correct for declining SG from the low absorb voltages.
Today the classics went to float and I changed the setting for equalize voltage to the recommended boost voltage and started a manual equalize (now boost). After a minute it stopped. Started again and a minute later it stopped again. Read the manual which said it should continue all day. I tried several things before figuring out that I need to start manual equalize on both classics for it to continue longer than one minute.
In the end it's all working great. Still have to test charging with the generator through the MagnaSine. The sun went behind clouds during the boost charge and will apparently stay there for a week, so I can probably test charging from generator too.
Hi DEinME,
Couple of things ...
When using multiple Classics on a single battery bank, using "Follow Me" (FM), will coordinate the transition to Float, and cause all Classics in follow me to go to EQ at the same time. Sounds like you are not using FM, yet (?). It only requires a few short phone cables.
EDIT: Normally, multiple charge sources will each contribute their maximum current available in Bulk, and other MPPT modes. But, in stages like Absorb, Float, and EQ, it is difficult to set separate chargers to equally share the amount of power delivered. In these cases, like in Absorb, one Classic could even Rest, while the other carries all of the task of charging. There are voltage Offset settings in the Tweaks menu, that can help balance this variation in the output currents<.
And, as was noted above, you may well find it to be very useful, if each battery/cell is numbered/lettered with a felt-tip pen, and battery voltages, SG readings, EQs, charge voltages, water consumption amounts, etc are recorded in your new Battery Log Book ... if you have not yet done so.
This system may not be your first, but you will also want a high quality Hydrometerf (or, perhaps a Refractometer). Would suggest the glass tube/glass float type. A Hydrovolt is also good -- having several Hydros can be useful, if there is ever a question about validity of SG readings.
Be certain to RINSE, RINSE, AND RINSE again, the Hydro, with distilled water, after a measuring session. DO this without exception, in order to keep the SG readings accurate.
You probably know much of this, but sure is a great time to start as much of this as possible, as soon as possible, with a new system ...
And so on. Later, Vic
Quote from: Vic on August 11, 2018, 05:36:08 PM
When using multiple Classics on a single battery bank, using "Follow Me" (FM), will coordinate the transition to Float, and cause all Classics in follow me to go to EQ at the same time. Sounds like you are not using FM, yet (?). It only requires a few short phone cables.
Follow Me was on before I tried the manual EQ. Even with Follow Me turned on, I had to start the EQ on both Classics or it would last only a minute.
Already have hydrometer and log.
Modify message. Follow me was on for classic 1, but not on for classic 2. The phone cable was installed by Midnight and follow me was turned on for classic 1 by Midnight. But not for classic 2. The manual is silent on if the follower needs to have follow me turned on or if only the leader says follow me.
OK, one Classic needs to be set as the "Master", and the other/s as "Follow", IIRC. Believe that the BTS can be on any of the Classics, but needs to selected on the Classic with the BTS.
And on the phone cables, unless you have a MidNite pre-wired system, have never seen any FM phone cables installed on factory-fresh Classics. The MNGP does have a very short phone cable twix it and the Classic control board. ...
So it is customary to have a short phone cable from the master, to each of the Following Classics, and from the last follow Classic, back to the Master.
Behind the vertical vents of each FM Classic, are blue LEDs, which flash every few seconds. Look for a short-ish flash from each Classic in the FM string. Wire these FM phone cables, as shown in the latest Classic manual.
Later, Vic
Quote from: Vic on August 11, 2018, 06:59:29 PM
OK, one Classic needs to be set as the "Master", and the other/s as "Follow", IIRC. Believe that the BTS can be on any of the Classics, but needs to selected on the Classic with the BTS.
And on the phone cables, unless you have a MidNite pre-wired system, have never seen any FM phone cables installed on factory-fresh Classics. The MNGP does have a very short phone cable twix it and the Classic control board. ...
This is a pre-wired system.
Did you change subject from "follow me" to temperature sensor?
For "follow me" I can only find on and off. The classic that came programmed with follow me "on" has always had quick flashes. The other one had no flashes until I turned follow me "on". Now it has slow flashes. I'll check the phone cable in the morning.
The options master and follow are the options for BTSNET and both classics were set by Midnight to "Master" but they don't both have temperature sensors. The explanatory text also doesn't make sense "Master = temp-comp plugged in". Surely it should be "Master = temp sensor plugged in". I've changed one of the classics to follow.
I've let this wander pretty far from questions about lead-acid batteries. I'd better look in the Classic area for more info.
I had thought that the Master needed to have the BTS, but after looking at the Menu Map in the manual, it looked like which Classic has the BTS was selectable.
Do not have a set of FM Classics right handy to look at them. But, it the Following Classis does not have its blue LED blinking, then it is not following.
From the 2056 Manual, " ... to enable Follow-ME. To do this, go to the Tweaks Menu. Press the ―Main Menu‖ button repeatedly until ―Charge‖ is highlighted. Scroll to the Right until ―Tweaks‖ is highlighted and press ―Enter‖. Now press the right soft key (Upper right button) 4 times until you see the screen with ―Follow-ME‖ and ―BTSNET‖ on it. Here you need to highlight Follow-ME and turn it on using the up arrow. You will also need to highlight BTSNET and turn it on if you want to share battery temperature data. After enabling these press Enter to save this data.
... "
Please check the FM cables to make sure that they are still fully seated, in the correct jacks, and not pinched by the cover, etc.
Recently set up FM on a Classic pair, and it works, but forgot about the BTS detail.
Some Subject drift is OK, it IS like a conversation, but the Classic Topic has a lot of detail about these things.
Good Luck, Vic
There is a lot of info on how to hook up and test the stuff on the knowledge base ( I only found out about this recently)
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/index.php
Larry
Hey, thanks for that Knowledge Base link. Looks like good info there.
Quote from: Vic on August 11, 2018, 06:59:29 PM. . . So it is customary to have a short phone cable from the master, to each of the Following Classics, and from the last follow Classic, back to the Master.
Behind the vertical vents of each FM Classic, are blue LEDs, which flash every few seconds. Look for a short-ish flash from each Classic in the FM string. Wire these FM phone cables, as shown in the latest Classic manual.
This morning I started an EQ from the Classic that has a slow flash. The Classic with fast flash followed. Then I switched the positions of the 2 phone cables for following and that reversed which Classic has slow flash and which has fast flash. The Knowledge Base that ClassicCrazy so kindly pointed me to has a bit about leaving off the return path so that follow me becomes master/slave. But I think I want to fix the hardware so that following in a circle would work.
Now I just need to retrieve my crimpers and cable tester from the fellow who's working on an electric car conversion. I can return his hydraulic crimper for large diameter cables.
Before 9 AM with heavy cloud cover it's charging at over 250W. This is not like having a 400W array.
You might have to cycle those new batteries deep ( 50% ?) a couple times before they start acting properly like you would expect a deep cycle battery to.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on August 11, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
There is a lot of info on how to hook up and test the stuff on the knowledge base ( I only found out about this recently)
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/index.php
Larry
Hi Larry,
Thanks for reminding me of the Knowledge Base ... this is a great addition to the Forum.
73, Vic
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on August 12, 2018, 10:05:26 AM
You might have to cycle those new batteries deep ( 50% ?) a couple times before they start acting properly like you would expect a deep cycle battery to.
Larry
From the Trojan Industrial Line User's Guide: "Trojan batteries take 50 - 100 cycles to work up to providing full amp-hour capacity."
Quote from: Vic on August 12, 2018, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on August 11, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
There is a lot of info on how to hook up and test the stuff on the knowledge base ( I only found out about this recently)
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/index.php
Larry
Hi Larry,
Thanks for reminding me of the Knowledge Base ... this is a great addition to the Forum.
73, Vic
Yeah I like it ! Saves us a lot of explaining doesn't it !
Larry
Hi DEinME,
Am curious how those new Trojan IND batteries are doing.
Are you able to achieve full-charge, measured SGs, using the standard Absorb voltage?
Any other observations on these batteries?
Thanks, Vic