wait for it...
6 - 4KS21 Rolls FLA batteries.
Tough decision and seems like whatever you choose still has more cons than pros. Got about 12 years out of our last FLA batteries so thought this would be the safest way to go.
I really wanted and tried to get a decent deal on some Crown 2v batteries, but up here in Canada they want your first born too. I would have gladly done that, but the surgeon said it wasn’t possible. Up here, Crowns are way way way more money than the Rolls/Surrettes. I wanted to like the tubular Davidsons, but they have a soft case that requires wooden boxes, which made me think they were too hokey. The other tubulars sold by the local dude, come from Europe, and don’t seem to have any customer help lines, etc. Looked at just about everything else, but kept coming back to the Rolls. Partly because they are made in Canada and ‘seemed' to have very good customer assistance for the batteries.
Anyway, ordered them on August 7’th. I have no idea where they are, other than the dealer saying they have been shipped. Rolls won’t tell me if they have been shipped or when they were shipped or even if they were made. Rolls says they have to protect their dealer confidentiality.
Gawd, what a bunch of bs. Sometimes living off grid, with crappy logistics, and companies / dealers that really don’t care other than getting the $$$ in their jeans sucks.
But it could be worse... apparently. Just ‘Roll’ with it, right?
:-)
that is some lousy customer service !
Hope they show up soon.
Yeah I would want them not older than 6 months from date of manufacture
Larry
Does Rolls ship them 'wet' or 'dry'?
Quote from: Westbranch on September 14, 2018, 08:48:32 PM
Does Rolls ship them 'wet' or 'dry'?
My experience with Surrettes, is, that they are shipped Wet, unless otherwise requested.
Have had very good experience with Surrette batteries, and all of their Customer Support.
If the decision needed to be made today for the off-grid battery replacement used here, guess that it would be Surrette FLAs. Li is looking interesting ...
Good Luck Al. All indications are that Surrette usually builds Flooded batteries to order. Vic
Yes they are shipped wet. I am sure they are on their way... Even though I am way more patient now than before moving off grid (cause things just move slower in this world) I do wish I knew where they were in order to organize their last (and expensive) leg of the journey. :-)
I have had nothing but good luck with Surrette and I think you made a good choice in a FLA battery manufacturer. If you want to know where your batteries are consider asking the person you bought them from. They should be able to tell you or find out.
Will
Hi Will
Yes I have asked them, and all they get back to me with, after apparently making some calls, is ‘they have been shipped.’ I haven’t pushed them yet, but after this week, if they don’t show up, I will become a PITA and will contact Rolls directly too. :-)
Just doing some reading here...
In order to compute the new set points for the new batteries (hopefully soon to arrive), I require the Magnum Remote and the Midnite charge controller ‘nominal charge currents.’
For the Magnum MS4024PAE I currently have the parameter set at 100% . I believe the charger puts out 105 a. So the formula they provided is;
C20 (1104) / 105 x.42 = 4.4 hrs in absorb / for generator.
For the 2 Midnite / 1 Apollo controllers what nominal charge current do you use to plug into the formula ??? Should I assume about 70 a and derate it a bit as there are three controllers in use?
Hope that makes sense...
I think from what it says you have for solar and the amount of batteries you have you do not need to current limit the charge from your PV. It will give all available power to your battery in Bulk and when the voltage climbs to the Absorb voltage then the Classic will taper off the current to keep the voltage constant until you get to either the Absorb Time of ending amps ( if you have whizbang and have ending amps set ) . I am sure Rolls has all the recommended setpoints for your Classic. If you want to set up ending amps there is a tutorial on how to do it in Knowledge Base - this topic " Frequently Asked Questions
All Categories » CLASSIC CHARGE CONTROLLER - Features and Programming
CLASSIC - ENDAMPS - How do I figure what ENDAMPS should be? "
http://www.midnitehelp.com/
Larry
Thanks Larry.
How do I know or calculate what ‘power’ in amps the three controllers can produce under optimum conditions? That’s the number I need in order to figure out the absorb time needed when charging by solar.
I think you could do one of two things .
One would be set them all to the same setpoints and they should all do similar regulating .
Or the other option would be to set two of the controllers with lower Absorb setpoint than your Classic array - and then those other two will drop out first and the Classic will finish up the charging . If you use more power then the voltage would drop and and the other two controllers should then contribute the power you need.
I have no experience with the other controller types. I guess you will just have to experiment some to find what works best. I think I would set the two other controllers one volt lower and one half volt lower than the Classic and watch and see how they behave.
You could just watch them and see how much amps each contributes on a sunny day and the you will know what to expect from them. They may put out more power if it gets colder out in winter. Seems like you could set them all for the same absorb time .
Larry
Copy thanks. Yes I will try to get a reading on a cold sunny day. I know those formulas for determining the absorb times are just ball park numbers. I will have to be way more disciplined with the hydrometer readings this time round... :-)
Quote from: alyaz on September 19, 2018, 04:26:47 PM
Just doing some reading here...
In order to compute the new set points for the new batteries (hopefully soon to arrive), I require the Magnum Remote and the Midnite charge controller ‘nominal charge currents.’
For the Magnum MS4024PAE I currently have the parameter set at 100% . I believe the charger puts out 105 a. So the formula they provided is;
C20 (1104) / 105 x.42 = 4.4 hrs in absorb / for generator.
For the 2 Midnite / 1 Apollo controllers what nominal charge current do you use to plug into the formula ??? Should I assume about 70 a and derate it a bit as there are three controllers in use?
Hope that makes sense...
Hi Al,
These formulas originate from the use of on-Grid chargers. The Magnum, running from a genset probably could use the same formula.
But, of course, it is generally poor use of fuel to do a complete charge using a genset, unless it is absolutely necessary. Often, even in Winter, one can run the genset into the Absorb stage, and try to let the PVs finish the charge. Realize that at your location this may not work in the deep, dark depths of Winter. Also Inverter gensets are more efficient than conventional ones, during Absorb, and so on.
If you are looking at the similar Absorb time formula from Surrette, it might not do a great job of estimating the Absorb time setting for PV-charged batteries.
The available charge current from PV varies considerably, often from one day to the next. The required Absorb time to fully-charge your Flooded batteries varies depending upon the Depth Of Discharge that the batteries experienced in the previous discharge. This, too, can vary considerably, from day-to-day (at least for most of our off-grid systems).
Using WB End Amps can help, but it would be ideal, if all of the Solar chargers were Classics, so Follow Me could control ALL PV chargers.
Just some opinions, good luck with that new battery bank, Vic
Thanks Vic.
You got me thinking... I do have a Midnite Classic 150 on the shelf (for a backup) and a WB that came with that Classic that I never installed. So I could re and re the Apollo controller for the Classic and have three Classics at work. However, with each Classic running a separate array (each is a different orientation, they could not be in ‘follow me’ mode anyway right? And if that is the case then I would need three WB’s (one for each Classic)? Or does One WB allow for separate runs to each Classic? Thanks.
Al
Hi Al,
In Follow Me, there is a Master Classic, with THE WbJr/Shunt. Each of the other CCs have their battery and PV negatives on the non-battery side of the Shunt. This allows the Master Classic to monitor all of the current coming from and going to the battery.
The battery accumulates charge current (less any discharges during charging). Irrespective of the PV array azimuths, when the battery charging current, as measured by the Master Classic remains below the set EA (with the CCs in Absorb) for about 30 - 60 seconds, all CCs go to Float.
There is a way for the Classics to Limit the total charge current into the battery, and that (at this stage) would require a Shunt and WbJr for each Classic that you wish to Limit the current -- depending on things, often not every Classic in this Limiting scheme would need a Shunt/Wb, only those that would have the ability of increasing the maximum charge current capability of the battery (IMO).
More opinions, hope that your new batteries arrive soon, and in great shape, Vic
Well still no sign of the batteries... Have been trying to at least appear patient. Will call before the end of the week to see if anyone happens to know anything... 7 1/2 weeks so far. At some point they may be keeping their batteries or getting sent back :-)
I wouldn't have been as patient as you -- someone should be able to tell you the progress of your order .
Larry
Quote from: alyaz on September 25, 2018, 08:40:48 PM
Well still no sign of the batteries... Have been trying to at least appear patient. Will call before the end of the week to see if anyone happens to know anything... 7 1/2 weeks so far. At some point they may be keeping their batteries or getting sent back :-)
It's not that simple with Rolls... Obviously, you didn't choose the right dealer. 7 1/2 weeks..., lol!
A+,
Erik in QC
Obviously... thought I was keeping things simple.
Hi Al,
Believe that Surrette does build-to-order. For batteries that are produced in larger volumes, there could be some factory-stock. Some Distributors/Dealers, might have volume purchase agreements to buy a certain number of specific batteries, over a period of time. Such arrangements can reduce the lead-times for specific batteries.
Historically the lead-times have been quoted as 6 - 8 weeks. Some models might need a bit more time, but, by this point, they, or your Dealer owe you an answer on WHEN.
Would guess, that perhaps the 4KS21s may not be a large volume item -- this would probably increase lead-times, particularly if your Dealer has not been selling a large number of these batteries.
IMO please Contact Surrette Sales, at:
•Phone: 1.800.681.9914
•Fax: 1.800.681.9915
•Sales: sales@rollsbattery.com
You might want to try to also find out if there is any Distributor that is involved with this order, as this might help Surrette find where your order is in the process.
Some years ago, Jamie Surrette was the person who helped Expedite orders, and/or help give ship dates, etc. This may not still be the case.
You DO deserve getting a fairly accurate ship date.
Beat on your Dealer to get any info that Surrette needs to help you get this info.
Why not try contacting Surrette, today? And ask them what info they would need to get you this ship-date.
Again, they have always been very helpful to me, (both Sales and Tech Support).
Good Luck, Vic
Thanks Vic
I have contacted Rolls directly and they told me they could not breach their manufacturer / dealer confidentiality. ???
I did call the local place I ordered them from again this morning. Told them I wasn’t trying to be difficult but needed either a tracking number or some accurate information. I told them I wanted an answer back today. If not I will call tomorrow and likely cancel the order.
Will keep you posted.
Just an update.
Rolls contacted the ‘dealer’ and then told me that someone from the ‘dealership' would contact me today. Rolls would not tell me if or when the batteries were ordered. Secret stuff I guess.
I waited until closing time and then called the ‘dealer.’ The guy that was supposed to call me had left for the weekend. Surprise.
I spoke to the owner who said he would call me back, which he did. It is his belief that the order was not put in initially (as they do it through a solar place in the Lower Mainland) and he is thinking that the batteries should be here next week, from what information he could learn.
If Rolls would just tell me something, anything... it would clear a lot up.
The owner seems to get it and was apologetic that the ball got dropped... Said he will get a proper update this coming week.
So that’s the latest gang.
Hi Al,
Hope that you get the info that you need, Monday, and that what you hear is good news.
Also hope that you can hang in with Surrette and your dealer.
In addition to getting very good support and service from Surrette, all of the Surrette battery banks here have been in service for 13 years. The two main banks are 4KS25s, which have give predictable behavior and continue to serve well. One bank has been a bit abused, and will probably be the first to begin to fail, but, still, have all been good work-horses.
Good luck, and please do let us know how things are going. Thanks, Vic
Hey Vic
Yes I know the Rolls are a good product and my queries with the Rolls techs leading up to my order was excellent. I do feel that their tech assistance is solid so that was one of the reasons I wanted the Rolls.
The local place I ordered them went through a dealer who says they shipped last week, however the ‘freight tracking number’ isn’t showing anything further... My last email(s) to Rolls asking the date they shipped has been ignored. Guess I am the bad guy now.
Hopefully I hear more next week. I missed a ‘free transport’ from a friend who was heading this way and the electrician on island has finished up and left. Complicates things but nothing I can do about it. Kinda freaked out about doing the battery hookup myself but I will worry about that when the time comes.
sorry to hear about the hassle you are having .
I don't understand though why Rolls would not tell you if they shipped your batteries or not.
Seems like someone is covering something up or why wouldn't they just tell you ?
Some of us o the group here can probably give you some free advice on wiring up your batteries . Photos of your system would help so we know what you have there.
It probably wouldn't hurt to start checking with some other battery suppliers too !
Larry
Hi Larry.
Copy on the ‘back-up plan.’ :-)
Was advised this morning that the batteries landed in Vancouver. Next leg of the trip is a barge ride up the Sunshine Coast...
Great news, Al. Good luck when moving them. Vic
QuoteGreat news, Al. Good luck when moving them. Vic
The arrow is supposed to point up ?
Ha. If there is an arrow I will make sure it points up. Batteries made it to Powell River today... getting closer.
They finally arrived today. Hiab’d them onto the concrete so they can be slid to their final spots. Look like they survived the journey. Date of manufacture on them is Oct 27/2018. So looks like someone forgot to place the order in a timely fashion. Oh well... Saturday is hook up day :-)
Quote from: alyaz on October 17, 2018, 08:09:00 PM
They finally arrived today. Hiab’d them onto the concrete so they can be slid to their final spots. Look like they survived the journey. Date of manufacture on them is Oct 27/2018. So looks like someone forgot to place the order in a timely fashion. Oh well... Saturday is hook up day :-)
It isn't October 27 yet ha ha - do you mean a different month ?
I looked back and see you ordered them on Aug 7
Glad you got them finally !
Larry
Haha... meant sept. ::)
Congratulations on those new batteries.
Glad that you stuck with Surrette, and your dealer.
Am sure that you have the Surrette Battery Manual. Follow the new battery bank Commissioning guide in that manual. This procedure will give you a baseline for later reference, and should allow you to refer back to your battery Logbook to see any trends that might be developing. That new Logbook, and a trusted Hydrometer/Refractometer will probably add life to that bank.
Good luck, and please do let us know how things are going. Vic
Glad it has worked out. Following for the connection update.
Thanks gang.
I have downloaded and printed out the manual, the install guide and a recent guide (short cheat sheet) that Steve at Rolls has put together. Filled out the info sheet and recorded all the SG’s etc. I have calculated all the set points for both solar charging and inverter charging and confirmed them with Steve.
Then I called HES (the solar distributor where the local place ordered the batteries through) and asked them where my real Rolls Battery Manual was. Got the run around and then after checking further they finally said, oh you are right, we are supposed to include one with new batteries. Anyway, they are sending one out asap. Just be nice to have the real battery manual.
* Have any of you found a better way to see the electrolyte level under the vent tube? It’s supposed to be 1/2†below the vent tube, which it appears to be. I used a small clean wooden dowel to measure how long the vent tube is (about 3 1/2â€). The length of the vent tube makes it kinda hard and a lot of glare when looking into the battery. My last batteries had those little pop up fill caps, which made it pretty easy. Just wondering if a headlamp / flashlight is the best way or if maybe a different coloured light etc works better?
Vic, do you just record the ‘4v’ voltage readings or do you take the top covers off and record the ‘2v’ voltage readings too on your 4 volt Rolls?
Thanks.
Hi Al,
This Link should work for the latest Surrette LA Battery Manual:
http://www.rolls-battery.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf
Personally, use a small LED Flashlight to view the electrolyte, works well here.
Surrette specifies that the Reserve Electrolyte is 3.75 inches for these batteries, IIRC. This is probably to top of the vent tube.
If you are up for it, you could remove the top battery covers to measure individual cell voltages. At the same time, you could check/re-torque the bolts/nuts that connect the two cells in each battery. If the batteries are still made in the same manner, removing the top covers would require using Silicone I to seal the terminal-to cover seal at each battery terminal. Perhaps the terminals and seals are a bit different now. Seems that it would be your choice on weather to do this or not.
Measuring and recording the SGs of each cell would probably be sufficient, in lieu of removing the covers to measure each cell's voltage.
Just my opinions ... back to burning dinner, Vic
Thanks Vic!
WARNING
A word on flashlights or any other bare metal tools dangled over or above or anywhere around LIVE VOLTAGE TERMINALS...Any bare metal is a HUGE DANGER POTENTIAL!!!
Rubber Insulated items can prevent short-circuit,melting/burning and vaporizing them right before your eyes, face and hands.
All done. Had a sunny day today too so got some good absorb time in as a bonus. Only scared the shyte out of myself once.
Also put the Whizbang shunt on and the light on the shunt board is blinking correctly and the information is showing up on the controller it is hooked to but only when you toggle 3 screens in. It’s not blinking on the main screen every five or so seconds... Hmmm. Will post that over on the Whizbang board. Otherwise all seems good so far.
Sorry for the crappy picture as the sun was shining in through the windows...
Questions about reading the SG’s...
I have two hydro-volts. Since we live off-grid full-time, with two electric fridges and a chest freezer etc., it is difficult to read the SG while in rest. So I have been taking the readings after a couple hours in absorb.
I have a few cells that read up around 1.280, so have been dropping my absorb set points by .2 v and currently am at 29.2v on my charge controllers. Steve at Rolls suggested keeping them at or below 1.275.
The calculations that Steve / I did suggest that the solar absorb time would be about 6-7 hours for these batteries/bank. So can’t see how I could or should reduce the absorb time when I have only been in absorb for a couple hours when reading the SG. That’s the reason I have slowly been reducing the absorb set points by .2 v
Any advice on what else I should be looking at, looking for, or missing here... etc?
Or is taking the SG readings while in absorb causing a higher than normal reading? I understood that hydrometers didn’t get fooled by surface charges.
Thanks.
usually the battery companies give a range to the absorb voltages. My thinking is you start at the bottom of the range for newer batteries an then can raise it as the batteries age or otherwise need raising.
Are you using end amps to stop absorb ? If so instead of changing the absorb setpoint you can raise the ending amps if you need less charge or lower if you need more .
6 or 7 hours in absorb seems like a very long time . It really depends on how far you are taking your batteries down. Take them down a lot and you don't get as long a life span out of them.
Probably better to have a cell or two little higher than the others rather than having most of the cells too low an the high cells right on.
Larry
Thanks ClassicCrazy. I haven’t been taking the batteries down much in part because they are new and trying to do everything right this time... ha. With not much sun this time of year, I run the gen for about an hour and a bit in the a.m. when getting up. That usually takes them up to what I suspect is about 90%. If I get any sun during the day that is bonus. At night I often run the gen for another hour and a bit while watching some TV and doing some wash etc.
Not using end amps at this point. I have been watching and logging the amps thru the WB on days there is sun to see where it is dropping off. What I have noticed though is that I must not have nailed the set up parameters cause my WB % has dropped down to about 84% now, even though I suspect that my SG readings are telling me the batteries are fully charged.
So I haven’t taken the time yet to straighten that out.
If your batteries are cold the SOC will show lower since it temperature compensates and takes some of the capacity off of the battery pack to reflect that in the SOC calculations.
Larry
Thanks. My batteries are in the basement which stays pretty constant at about 59 degrees F.
Can you point me to any info on how to try to reset the WB Jr. Maybe I will try a lower efficiency rate. Last time I put in 1105 a/hr (this is what the bank is rated at 20 hr) and I put in 90% efficiency. Some of the stuff I had read from Steve Higgins suggested that no FLA bank is more than about 80% efficient.
If the WB Jr % rate drops slowly over time - a few months ... contrary to one thinking the batteries are being charged fully, is that possibly because the efficiency rate was set too high?
The Whizbang does not get reset.
The SOC calculations are only dependent on the capacity you put in and the efficiency ( the battery temperature as I said will make the battery capacity less if the batteries are colder ) The SOC are just estimates but can be fairly accurate once you tweak everything like capacity and efficiency.
Yes Vic often says that flooded lead acid efficiency is lower than 90% - look for some of his past posts or don't know if he commented before on this post about it - I didn't go back and read all the past posts.
I wonder if you are taking into account some of the SOC things - like it will show 100% when the batteries go from Absorb to Float. There are a couple other settings for SOC I believe but I don't remember what they are now - has to do with AH resetting.
Larry
take a look on the Knowledge base for help to questions too .
One thing they say is that if your SOC is always going down is you might have the Whizbang installed backwards ?
http://www.midnitehelp.com/
Copy thanks.
Hi Al, and Larry,
As Larry noted, the SOC that is calculated from the WbJr data is approximate. Obviously, the Gold Standard for SOC of Flooded batteries is from measurements taken from an accurate Hydrometer (or Refractometer). The longer period between full charges, the less-accurate is this SOC calculation. Assume that your Classic Resets SOC to 100% upon its transition from Absorb, to Float.
There are many factors that reduce the accuracy of Wb calculated SOC, like rate of discharge (and probably even rate of charge), battery efficiency variations, etc.
Agree with Larry about battery efficiency for FLA batteries. Would start at 80% for a new, but broken-in FLA, and be ready to reduce this setting, as needed. MN Engineering recommends 94-ish percent for FLAs, but this setting seems more appropriate for Sealed batteries (AGM, Gel), than FLAs, IMO.
Hydros need to be RINSED, RINSED, AND RINSED YET AGAIN with Distilled Water after each measuring session (would not let the Hydro sit, unrinsed for more than a couple of hours). Rinsing preserves the Hydro accuracy.
IMO, Flooded batteries should be fully-charged at least twice per week, perhaps once per week may be OK. The deeper the Depth Of Discharge, the more frequent should be the full-charge -- do not let a deeply discharged FLA sit, without beginning a full charge.
Fully charging FLAs from a genset is usually not desirable, BUT for off-gridders in Northern climes, there little choice. It must be done when the battery bank needs it.
One or two Pilot Cells should be chosen early in the lives of FLA batteries. Usually, these cells would be chosen from the cells that have the lowest SG, when the bank is fully charged. This will allow a quick way to measure the SOC of a FLA bank.
Al, what are the SGs of each cell in your bank, when fully charged?
How are you generally fully-charging this battery bank -- Solar, or Genset?
Agree that 6 - 7 hours of Absorb is very long. But in Winter, perhaps this is OK, as you are unlikely to have this long a Solar day for the Classic to charge. Perhaps this is in reference to the Absorb time setting in the Inverter/Charger ...
A bit of a minor nit, is that the advertised Ah Capacity of 1104 should really be reduced to 1050-ish Ah, as Surrette specs Capacity for 1.280 SG electrolyte, instead of the most-common fill electrolyte of 1.265. Will make little difference, as actual C varies a bit from cell-to-cell.
FWIW, the Surrette 4KS25 banks here have the Efficiency set to 77% IIRC. It really should be set a bit lower, at that ... they are in their 14th year of service (and we do Skip one day on one bank, and three days on the other).
More later, FWIW. Good Luck, Vic
Thanks Vic.
Some of the SG’s are as high as 1.280, which Steve has suggested I should be either reducing the absorb time or absorb voltage by .2v at a time. I have reduced my charging voltage down to 29.4v now, and had started up at 30v (as per Steve’s suggestion).
Today they were at 1.275, so maybe the 29.4v is better. My weakest cell is usually around 1.265, which it was at today after a full absorb cycle. I have my controllers set to end amps at 12a now.
This time of year I have been running the gen a bit in the morning to take it into absorb and a bit at night, while watching an hour or so of TV.
Ya, that 6-7 hrs is what Steve calculated (in solar absorb) but watching the SG with the two Hydro-Volts I have, it seems that would be overkill. Maybe if I had the batteries down to 24.2v they make take that long?
I have been keeping the batteries above about 24.8v, so in the morning an hour or so of gen time takes it from bulk and into absorb and a bit of sun during the day (2 hours in absorb today) got the batteries to the 12a end amps and into float. That’s when I checked the SG with the Hydro-Volt and all seemed to be good.
I will reduce the a/hr for the bank to 1050 and leave the efficiency at 80% for now.
Thanks again.
Hi Al, thanks for the added info ... little time now,
But, on a day that you believe that the batteries are fully-charged,
What is the Net Ah reading (this would Ah Removed) early on the following morning? This is good info, and could be confirmed by SG readings. If the over night discharge is considered your typical, this would give you a good idea of your approximate average DOD.
You could try to confirm the accuracy of the other WB status readings.
FWIW, Vic
Thanks Vic.
I will start watching that.
:)
I have wondered for a while now just how long good batteries last if taken care of. Surette had just confirmed that my Surette S-530's were built in 2005. Date code 5265, decoded as 5 day of week, 26 week of year, 5 last digit of year...14 years old and still strong as ever. They preform better than my 6 year old Interstates. ONE MEAN BATTERY!
David
Edit......These are L-16 batteries, The Interstates are traction batteries also L-16
Wow! Nice work you are definitely doing something right. :)
If you have enough PV to fully charge the bank well before sundown, you could do a 110V opportunity load (DHW) or like with the excess..... ???
I got a follow up call from Steve Higging @ Rolls and he told me that the date code stamped into the top edge of the cover is the "born on date" , on the bottom of the label is the shipping date coded as a 9 digit number , " the shipping date". Labels are applied as the batteries ship. Mine were shipped June 26 2005 , decoded from the label 2262005. So that is a clue as to how fresh they are. I have heard that Rolls builds what you need, especially in the larger format batteries. So my L-16 S-530 bank is 13 going on 14 years old.....they were trashed by the former owner and sold to me as scrap for $5.00 each........I've got 6 years out of them allready and they still test good. Steve did suggest that in lower my s.g.'s a bit to 1.260 or 1.255 as batteries don't need so high an s.g. when well broken in this well. He also advised me not to charge them in parallel with my interstate L-16 set. That I have been doing since I've had them. I basically have two systems side by side that can be paralled when using large loads. No fail is very important to me....100% redundancy.....never had a low voltage cutout.
I do take s.g. Readings and log them monthly.
One key piece of information that Steve told me is to use a FLIR gun to look for hot spots, mostly at the bottom and top of the plates from the side of the cases. Hot spots point to a problem.
I do that with my AGM cdtecnobatteries that I get free from cell site maintaince crews. The bad cell will be 20-40 degrees hotter than the good cells.
Do this towards the end of a absorb or e.q. Charge
Some of the cdtecnobatteries show hot spots show hot spots within 20 minutes of charging, mind you that these batteries are not maintained well. Federal law requires automatic change out of cell tower batteries. I agree to recycle them, signed, to relieve the service crews of doing that. It gives me access to the recycled laptop and power tool batteries which I weed out and have several hundreds of good Sony and Sanyo 18650 cells. Very useful for projects.
David
An aquintence of mine is the longest running recycler in Santa Cruz county so I have access to city and county recycle programs. Their interest is recycling and I agree to return them to recycle or recycle them into another use. ...free batteries with only an agreement to not dump them.
That is a great battery source ! Good deal.
Larry
Quote from: tecnodave on February 13, 2019, 03:29:36 PM
I got a follow up call from Steve Higging @ Rolls ... Rolls builds what you need, especially in the larger format batteries. So my L-16 S-530 bank is 13 going on 14 years old ..
.....Steve did suggest that in lower my s.g.'s a bit to 1.260 or 1.255 as batteries don't need so high an s.g. when well broken in this well ... David
Steve Higgins @ Surrette does know his stuff. He has a great background, having been in Tech Support at Outback Power. He seems to be very responsive, and knowledgeable.
Am sure that Surrette generally builds batteries to-order. Perhaps on their highest-volume batteries, they might build some for stock (and perhaps does not finish them).
One good reason to reduce the target SG for FLA batteries (particularly Lead Antimony FLAs), is due to electrolyte loss -- electrolyte spatter and leakage from caps, and acid vapor that exits the batteries on every cycle. We do replace the water loss of Gassing, but not the acid.
This acid loss results in the electrolyte acid content being diluted when we add distilled water. Lower SG electrolyte requires lower charge voltages (and of course, the need to lower our SG target for full-charge).
The S-530 12 V bank here is also in its 13th year. Shipped directly from Surrette to us, in 2005. These batteries still doing great!
All-in-all we have been very satisfied with the three Surrette battery banks in use here, and with Surrette's great support.
Just opinions, FWIW, Vic
Man, that’s sure a good lifespan for those types of batteries. But I gotta give you kudos as it is obvious you know what and how to care for them properly! 8)
Vic,
I just emailed NAWS for a quote on Rolls-Surette S-550's and they quote shipping in two days from Arizona or I can pick up in San Jose, CA with a 5-6 week lead time, so you are correct, some high volume dealers do have stock on shelves, but most suppliers have quoted that 5-6 week lead time.
Interesting to note I also emailed Interstate Battery in Salinas,CA for a quote on interstate L-16 and their local pickup price was less than $200 less than Rolls-Surette price delivered here.
No deal on that, the Rolls batteries are far better than Interstate (Johnson Controls) batteries. I might consider Interstate if they were half the price, but at $1300 vs $1560 no deal, I have both batteries in my set and they are not equivalent.
I have 14 year old S-530 and 6 year old Interstates and the Rolls have maybe 20% more capacity,
Both formats are L-16's
Please note I do not run these batteries in parallel sets, I have two systems almost identical and run them separately unless I am in a high energy situation where I am welding/fabricating all day and the loads would be too large for single system, at that point I parallel both systems, but when big loads are done systems are separated so the batteries can recharge properly. Works well for me and I have 100% redundancy, if anything fails I can throw a few breakers and switches and have full power.
My generator is getting lonely, haven't used it in almost a year!
David
You ‘Rolls’ FLA guys... Are you only doing EQ’s when the difference in readings between cells are over .025-.030? That’s the way I read the manual, but wondering about my interpretation. I have been monitoring my cells at least once a month (since installed) and I often have a difference up to .020 between cells. Thanks.
Hi Al, very little time just now.
But why not EQ now, after a full charge?
Use an EQ voltage in the low end of the range.
Note the WBjr battery current, once the Veq has been reached, and note that WB current when you are very near the end of the EQ, and record these in your Logbook.
More later, Vic
Thanks Vic
Are we looking for anything specific, or just wise to note this stuff, regarding the Whizbang Jr current once the voltage EQ is reached and near the end of the EQ? Thanks.
Alayz,
Yes definitely do an e.q. now and do not let the s.g. readings deviate that much. One thing to note on tall batteries like yours is that stratifaction does occur in the acid mixture. It is important to let the batteries rest with little or no load after thorough charging before taking a s.g. reading. Readings taken too early will show a deviation from the norm. My training in FLA batteries is that .020 variation in s.g. is you are headed for trouble..... .050 difference you are in trouble now and immediate action will be required to save batteries.
I rely solely on s.g. readings to determine state of charge and log s.g. readings every two weeks including daily average usage figures to determine needed action. I do not try to achieve "full charge" every day but do plan on "full charge" twice a week. I e.g. weekly depending on weather but I do keep a regular cycle.
My Rolls-Surette S-530's were shipped out the door June 26, 2005 and now are 14 years old and doing just fine. I picked them up on the way to the scrap yard 6-7 years ago, dead at 0.05 volts for set of 4 and s.g. so low did not register.
I do have whizbang Jr.'s and Bogart Engineering battery monitors and their data is valuable and is logged as well.
My other main bank are L-16 traction batteries from Interstate and they are 6-8 years old now and doing just fine.
It's all about maintaince. Most Batteries die from LOM! Lack of maintaince.
David
Thanks gang. I cleaned and re-torqued all the battery connections this morning and will do a solar EQ after I get to float. I have been getting a full charge at least once a week and have been monitoring SG levels often. That #2 cell has always been lower than the others right from the factory. Anyway, I have been logging everything and have been keeping in touch with Steve at Rolls. I am sure he cringes every time he sees an email from me... Definitely a helpful and patient person :)
Hi Al,
The earlier reference to noting the WB current at EQ begin (after the Classic/s no longer show EQ-MPPT). and close to the end if just for future reference. This current will depend upon the EQ voltage (Veq) . These could be of future interest for future EQs. The higher is this current, the greater the need that the battery needed EQing. As in Absorb, this current tapers, as the EQ progresses.
We have always Temp Compensated the Veq on all banks here, but for the past couple of years, Surrette has implied that this voltage NOT be comped. Not compensating Veq could well mean that the WB current could actually increase during the EQ, as the battery heats. You might ask Steve Higgins about comping Veq (I have not).
There always will be cells that differ a bit from others made on the same date. This is just the way things go when doing basic manufacturing processes, it seems.
It is good that you re-torqued connections and are monitoring SGs often. Monitoring Flooded batteries and looking for differences in behavior and trends is about the most important factor in long battery life, as you know.
One of the large benefits in using Surrette batteries is their historically great customer support. Am sure the Steve appreciates that you are paying attention to your batteries, logging data, and asking intelligent questions, as you are.
Your batteries are large and tough. They have thick plates, and can tolerate reasonable EQing. It is far better to EQa bit too often that not often enough. The >result< for EQing less often than required is usually hard sulphation. Then a Corrective EQ might help remove some of this, but this process is very hard on batteries. You know all of this anyway.
Enjoy the Spring, better solar days, and the great new battery bank!
FWIW, Vic
Awesome info Vic. Thanks!