Hi, I've got two MidNite Classic 250 charge controllers networked together with my SMA Sunny Island SI6048 via a MidNite MODBUS/Canbus SMA communications adaptor.
I'm having a weird issue = both Classic 250's MNGP's display the info for the primary Classic 250.
I can 'fix' it but that causes other problems. If I leave the MODBUS address on the 2nd unit set to the default of 10 (like the primary) then it displays it's own info but my Sunny Island can't see it. When I change the MODBUS address on the 2nd unit to 11 (like it is supposed to be) then it shows the display of the primary Classic 250, not it's own - BUT the Sunny Island can see it just fine (as can the local app either way).
What am I missing? This didn't start happening (or I didn't notice it) until my primary 250 went down - now back from warranty service (thanks guys) it still does this.
Can anybody help?
Oh my. That is weird (I think)
Have you tried hooking up the MNGP to the "other" Classic instead ?
Or maybe trying to swap the addresses, 10 and 11 to 11 and 10 for the two Classics ?
I would try moving the MNGP first.
What do you mean, swap the covers between the two units? I must be mistaken but isnt that where the memory resides - will I then have to reprogram BOTH of them AND reroute the network cables - or am I overthinking this?
I've tried the other way around with the MODBUS addresses and unless the last Classic in the chain (that is attached to the MODBUS/Canbus com deal) is set to 10 then the Sunny Island can't see either Classic on the network. As it is the MODBUS/Canbus is MODBUS 9, the primary Classic attached to it MODBUS 10, and the other Classic is supposed to be 11.
The Sunny Island is reading both of them perfectly, and so does the local app - it's just both of them have the display of the primary.
The Classic 250 on the Left should be named West and have a totally different set of numbers displayed.
South array has produced squat today thanks to our blanket of smoke overhead.
I can display different screens at the same time, but they are both of the Right Classic 250 'south'
West has the temp sensor and Whizbang Jr which both look fine on the local app but don't show up on these MNGP displays.
Ya know, I can't remember but it MAY be that this is normal ? Or did you say that this used to work as expected ?
The MNGP display (cover) is not where the memory resides. That resides inside the Classic itself.
The MNGP is actually just a window into the Classic's settings but it can auto-program the Classic with the 2-finger vulcan mind meld usually done when setting up a new system. A "terminal" is what the MNGP is.
Have you asked anyone in our support group about this ? This forum is a good place to start though of course and the support folks will eventually see this (hopefully)
If not, I can prod them 😁
boB
Are these Classic set up in follow me mode?
Something isn’t configured or wired correctly as they both show the same Serial Number.
Can you provide a drawing of how the Classic cables are connected inside the top cover?
If I change the MODBUS address back to 10 then the unit displays properly but the Sunny Island can't see it. Not follow me - SMA - these are controlled by the SMA SI6048 via the MODBUS/Canbus adaptor.
Left most unit 'West' MODBUS address 11 is connected to the Right most unit 'South' MODBUS address 10 by a phone line that goes from 'slave out' on 'West' to 'master in' on 'South.' A CAT-5 cable then goes from the 'slave out' on 'south' (MODBUS 10) to the RJ-11 connector 'MODBUS IN' on the MidNite Solar MODBUS/Canbus Comm Adaptor for SMA. Another cable goes from the Canbus port on the Comm Adaptor to the RJ-45 marked 'COM SYNC' on the SMA Sunny Island SI6048 and a 'bus terminator' in the RJ-45 marked 'COM SYNC OUT' on the SI6048. Both Classic 250's are set to 'SMA MODE.'
Quote from: Resthome on September 12, 2020, 12:18:51 AM
Are these Classic set up in follow me mode?
Something isn’t configured or wired correctly as they both show the same Serial Number.
Can you provide a drawing of how the Classic cables are connected inside the top cover?
SMA mode works a bit differently than the normal RS-232 MODBUS networking mode for this setup.
CANBUS from the SMA Sunny Island goes into our box that translates SMA speak to Classic speak.
We do a bit extra than what normal RS-232 MODBUS does. The Classic has the two RS-232 ports (not including Ethernet and the MNGP port) that normally will pass packets through if the modbus address (10, 11, 12 etc) does not match. This is normally bidirectional too.
In one mode, the packets flow only one direction and that is why you have to have a loop for Follow-Me mode. Also, in F-Me mode, the address is given as not 10 or 11 etc but as address 255. Another no-no for the modbus spec but we use it anyway. When a Classic see an address of 255 come in, it takes it as its own, even if its address is programmed to be 10 or 11 etc. That packet is not passed through also. Each Classic's neighbor in Follow-Me mode is addressed as 255.
In the regular Classic mode, the packets can go either way and pass through but I think that Follow-Me itself just makes it go one direction so the MNGP should still work to address a neighboring unit.
In SMA mode, it is different and I am trying to remember what that difference is. I MAY be that the packets only go in one direction and that an MNGP can not address a unit down-stream. Or the unit down-stream may see the MNGPs packet but that MNGP can not receive the packet from the downstream Classic.
I have to look to remember how that works. I will try to look for that this weekend.
This is the manual (flyer) that tech support told me (quite rudely) on the phone last year had everything I needed to know.
Remove all COMMBOX routing cables before trying the address the Classics. You are re-addressing #1 to address 11 across the cables.
Quote from: Wizbandit on September 12, 2020, 05:30:55 PM
Remove all COMMBOX routing cables before trying the address the Classics. You are re-addressing #1 to address 11 across the cables.
I did readdress them before connecting back to the MODBUS/Canbus combox, and they appear in the local app to be addressed correctly, but I'll try that again.
Quote from: Wizbandit on September 12, 2020, 05:30:55 PM
Remove all COMMBOX routing cables before trying the address the Classics. You are re-addressing #1 to address 11 across the cables.
Ok, I did it that way and now the 'West' unit (MODBUS 11) never has it's own display - it displays a mirror of 'South' (MODBUS 10) MNGP and if you power down 'South' the display on 'West' changes to zeros and 'GOT COMM?' You can go thru the menus but can't save anything. I changed out the MNGP cable and same thing. Also displays 'GOT COMM?' if the master/slave cable isn't hooked up. Numbers show up OK on local app, and the SI can see both of them on the SMA network so this just may be an annoyance I can live with... but it wasn't like this for almost a year so I fear it's a harbinger of doom.
Oddly if 'West' is set to (MODBUS 10) it has it's own display but doesn't show up on the SMA.
GOT COMM?
I guess I could try swapping positions of the Classics out and see what happens?
Have you tried changing the cables ?
I think that's a last ditch effort question though since I'm not sure why it would still work like it is working.
It IS full-duplex RS-232 though so maybe ?
I only mention this because you said it worked as expected for a year so I am wondering what changed ?
Quote from: boB on September 12, 2020, 09:49:20 PM
I only mention this because you said it worked as expected for a year so I am wondering what changed ?
The primary unit 'South' died 3 or 4 weeks ago and this was one of the weird things I noticed when it did. The unit 'South' was repaired under warranty and just came back a few days ago. When it died was when I first noticed this.
Quote from: Trukinbear on September 13, 2020, 01:45:33 AM
Quote from: boB on September 12, 2020, 09:49:20 PM
I only mention this because you said it worked as expected for a year so I am wondering what changed ?
The primary unit 'South' died 3 or 4 weeks ago and this was one of the weird things I noticed when it did. The unit 'South' was repaired under warranty and just came back a few days ago. When it died was when I first noticed this.
AHA ! OK. Then you will probably have to take one MNGP and plug it into the repaired Classic. THEN change its address to 11 or 12 or whatever it needs to be set to.
You cannot change a Classic's modbus address over the network if I remember correctly. This would be because the MNGP that is plugged into the Classic will be sent using modbus address 255. Sending through address 255 tells the Classic to stop there and not forward over the network cable.
So, if the MNGP is plugged into a Classic that is set for address 10 and the MNGP is talking on 10, they will take together fine OR at address 10 or 255. If that MNGP tries to change its Classic and the MNGP changes to address 11, the the Classic it is trying to change will not see the command because it is still at address 10. But if the MNGP talks over address 255, then the Classic it is connected to will see the command to change to address 11 but using address 255. Address 255 is a catch-all address for a Classic for this and other purposes.
You should not have to change the address in the MNGP to 255 though. The function of changing the modbus address automatically should do that. But the MNGP or any MNGP needs to temporarily at least be plugged into the classic needing the address change. Then the MNGP can be moved back to the original Classic and its MNGP address changed back to 10 or whatever it was at before.
The repaired unit is the primary so its MODBUS address stays at the default 10, and the other unit is sitting on 11. The SMA COMM MODBUS/Canbus seems to see both of the units where they need to be, and they show up on my Sunny Island as charge controller one, and two, and I can directly read PV Volts, PV Amps, KWh totals and battery voltage from either of the Classic 250s from the Sunny Island, and I can see on the Classics where it says SMA MODE and the charge setpoints have been set by the Sunny Island. At this point this is more of an annoyance than anything else preventing me from seeing WhizBang Jr data while at the Sunny Island. These units (Classic 250V) can operate without a MNGP attached? Just curious.
PS: the last selection on the last screen on the Local App 'CONFIG-TECH' allows changes the MODBUS address - it does work, I've changed it both ways.
Quote from: Trukinbear on September 14, 2020, 03:12:19 AM
PS: the last selection on the last screen on the Local App 'CONFIG-TECH' allows changes the MODBUS address - it does work, I've changed it both ways.
Yes, it probably does. But it is talking to the individual Classic over Ethernet with its own TCP/IP and MAC address. That is why that works.
Not quite the same over modbus.
Ok, I'm lost now - I didn't have to do anything that was very different than the instructions indicated last year when I set these all up other than figuring out that each Classic had to have it's own ethernet connection as the MODBUS 'network' wasn't really a network they could use for outside communications (to the world). But then both Classics were new and it was a fresh setup. I wish there really WAS a way to reset these to original factory defaults - the VMM with the arrow keys only resets MODE, BAT VOLT, and BAT CAPACITY - and the VMM with the jumpers on the board no better. The units still have all their cumulative totals, voltage targets, unit names, addresses, WhizBang Jr, and network settings the same and aren't cleared. That to me seems to be a big design flaw of some sort. I find it hard to believe these units really can't be reset... but they sure can't be reset with the VMM. I'd love to be able to start from a clean slate, even the 'South' unit that came back from warranty repair was still full of my data, settings, and history (and still knew it's name was South).
For the networking using the MNGPs, I would suggest calling tech support and see if they can talk you through that. One of them should know more about that.
What are they walking me thru? As far as the Sunny Island is concerned the network is correct, it is doing what it is supposed to do... what it has always done. I've just got this weird issue where no matter what Classic is connected to MNGP it displays the data from only one of them. I could move the WhizBang Jr to the one that does display and then I wouldn't even give a fart. My fear however is this is a symptom of some upcoming failure, or there is something else that doesn't work right that I just haven't discovered yet. I've already had the networking conversation with them, and Ive got the same flyer that they referred me to last time (last updated in 2013). I'll save that frustration thank you. I appreciate what they do, but phone doesnt seem to be their forte - or it sure wasn't when I called last year. I guess if nobody has ever heard of this happening before, it must be normal? Or nothing? I do appreciate your effort - I guess if one of these IS dieing when it does I'll do a trouble ticket. Thank you
Well crud, the MNGP on the 'West' unit just stopped displaying - unit appears to work, and I don't miss seeing a mirror image display of the 'South' unit. What usually dies next after the MNGP?
So the SMA comm adapter requires each connected classic to be addressed.
By default the classics are on ten and the MNGP is on 10. What you have to do is set the upstream Classics and displays to 11,12 and 13 (If you had 4)\
Now if you addressed the classics but NOT the MNGP you would have all MNGPs looking at address 10 so they would all display the same thing in theory.
The issue here is the upstream classics can not see around the loop as there isnt the last loop cable like there is in follow me so it could result in that MNGP showing all 0s
I think what boB was suggesting is you call in to support and walk through this with Todd or Jim and get the adressing set up properly. The fact you are seeing a mirror image tells us the addressing isnt set up correctly
Here is a detailed write-up on Classic Motherboard and MNGP Addressing:
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=123
Quote from: FNG on September 21, 2020, 02:13:36 PM
So the SMA comm adapter requires each connected classic to be addressed.
By default the classics are on ten and the MNGP is on 10. What you have to do is set the upstream Classics and displays to 11,12 and 13 (If you had 4)\
Now if you addressed the classics but NOT the MNGP you would have all MNGPs looking at address 10 so they would all display the same thing in theory.
The issue here is the upstream classics can not see around the loop as there isnt the last loop cable like there is in follow me so it could result in that MNGP showing all 0s
I think what boB was suggesting is you call in to support and walk through this with Todd or Jim and get the adressing set up properly. The fact you are seeing a mirror image tells us the addressing isnt set up correctly
Yeah, oddly it worked right for a year. That the MGNP doesn't work at all now makes me suspect a potential hardware issue in addition to MNGP addressing. Neither MGNP will display anything (just blank) with either cable on the 'West' unit now... The Sunny Island still sees it, and it's putting out power.
Quote from: Wizbandit on September 21, 2020, 02:44:41 PM
Here is a detailed write-up on Classic Motherboard and MNGP Addressing:
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=123
I did that, without the networking cables installed - set the MNGP to address 11 to match the unit. It DOES display for the correct unit, but give 'UNUSED ADDRESS' errors, and (I didn't know this had a buzzer) makes a sound every now and again that sounds like the 'emergency tones' at the beginning of some show about firefighters back in the 80's on TV. The first 3 notes of a major cord arpeggio.
Quote from: Trukinbear on September 27, 2020, 12:17:22 PM
Quote from: Wizbandit on September 21, 2020, 02:44:41 PM
Here is a detailed write-up on Classic Motherboard and MNGP Addressing:
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=123
I did that, without the networking cables installed - set the MNGP to address 11 to match the unit. It DOES display for the correct unit, but give 'UNUSED ADDRESS' errors, and (I didn't know this had a buzzer) makes a sound every now and again that sounds like the 'emergency tones' at the beginning of some show about firefighters back in the 80's on TV. The first 3 notes of a major cord arpeggio.
Oh, THAT sound ! I hate that sound ! That, I think, was an unwanted software "feature". You can disable the sounds by going to the MNGP menu and under MNGP menu, turn off the sound.
That one I think you are talking about is kind of annoying. There may be a newer software revision for the MNGP that stops that from happening while keeping the rest of the sounds and talk working OK.
Quote from: boB on September 27, 2020, 02:29:42 PM
That one I think you are talking about is kind of annoying. There may be a newer software revision for the MNGP that stops that from happening while keeping the rest of the sounds and talk working OK.
It TALKS? I didn't know it could make a sound - first I've encountered in a year of use. I was sitting by myself in the quiet machine room without the generator or fans running and quite frankly it startled me quite well - glad I wasn't working on the hot side of the panel. What does it say, when?
I think you said you sent in one of your classics and got it back - they probably updated and loaded the voice firmware in it . The older Classics you had to upload a bunch of voice files to make it talk .
You will know if you go into the Mngp menu Misc and then Audio and turn on Chatty Cathy and then press Test it will start talking.
I know what Bob is talking about - there was some firmware version where if you pressed a button it made a loud noise but they fixed that in one of the firmware updates.
I have the talky stuff turned off on my Classics - fun to play with but not a lot of value for me here.
for your info my firmware is 2197 MNGP 2245 Classic
Larry
Yeah, no it is the unit that I didn't send in that is giving me problems. Firmware is current, or seems to be - I remember updating it last year. It has a setting for voice, but when it says it's testing it I hear nothing. I can get it to beep, and adjust the volume of the beep. I'll look at the one that came back to see if it has 'chatty cathy.' I was wrong about the arpeggio, it is more of a European police siren dual alternating tones. Is making the noise, and displaying unused address 11 while it does. My Sunny Island sees it... it IS 11.
If firmware isn't the same as the one I posted above try that one to get rid of siren noise - or maybe shutting off audio in mngp will work.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on September 27, 2020, 10:24:05 PM
for your info my firmware is 2197 MNGP 2245 Classic
Larry
Where did you get that?
I've got 2193 - which is the latest and only one listed on the Website (2193 - Feb 06, 2018)
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pages/classic/firmware.php?firmwareProduct_ID=1
Are you addressing these using the local app?
Quote from: FNG on September 28, 2020, 03:18:28 PM
Are you addressing these using the local app?
Yes, the MODBUS address on 11 was originally set via the local app for the Classic itself - and with all the networking cables disconnected with the MNGP as in the link above to set MNGP address to 11.
Otherwise I've tried 'hey you, and hellooo are you working' with only mixed results. :-)
Ok the issue with addressing the classics using the local app is it does not address the MNGP. You dont want to use the local app for addressing on classics only classic lites.
What I would do is unplug the follow me - SMA cables between the classics and follow the directions on addressing from th MNGP and set them for 10 and 11
I'm sure I must have once set the MODBUS address from the MNGP for the Classic when I set this up originally, but right now I'm having trouble locating that function.
Quote from: Trukinbear on October 01, 2020, 03:43:51 PM
I'm sure I must have once set the MODBUS address from the MNGP for the Classic when I set this up originally, but right now I'm having trouble locating that function.
Misc menu / Comm
Larry
Actually to address the classic is done from the home screen. On page 21 of this manual
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Classic_ClassicSL_Manual_10-001-1_REV_L.pdf
To address a Classic simply use the MNGP that is plugged into that Classicor plug the MNGP into that Classic and hold the LEFT ARROW keydown and tap the UP or DOWN ARROW key. The normal default address is 10 so going up will take you to 11 and down to 9. When you get to the unused address you want for that Classic, hold the LEFT and RIGHT ARROW keys for a second until “Data Sent and Saved†shows up. Now this Classic has been re-addressed to the new address.
Thanks, yes that is the way I did it with the arrow keys. The network agrees it is 11, the Sunny Island agrees it is 11, and about two thirds of the time this unit's MNGP shows the data I would expect, and one third of the time the screen just says 'Unused Address 11.' It did set off an obnoxious alarm every time it did that but I've got the volume down to zero now so I can't hear it.
Ok so what you are explaining is a loss of comms between the display and the classic. If this is more than a few seconds say 15-30 seconds and it selfs rectifies this could be several issues:
1- Bad cable between the classic and the MNGP (Try a new cable)
2- Corrosion on the cable or jacks, I have seen this in humid areas if the silicone gell isn't used on these jacks (To fix please clean with contact cleaner and apply silicone dielectric grease)
3- Bad cable between the classics for SMA mode or between classic and SMA Commbox, The issue here becomes traffic and prioirities. Sending info to view on the MNGP is a lower level of priority than sending charging data across the network. (Try a new cable)
4- Corrosion on any of those jacks, See #2 above
5- Firmware mismatch. While each classic can be on different firmware versions the MNGP and Classic have to be on the same. If the classic and MNGP are not on the same firmware the Classic can get lost trying to right data to registers that arent present. I have seen this where the covers get confused and the wrong MNGP gets put on the wrong classic
6- An issue with a control board or mngp. (Reach out to our support team for an RMA if all the above is exhausted)