Have mentioned this several times, in the past -- at least in Legacy P&O Mode (L P&O), when going from the Float stage, just after Absorb just finished, to Manual EQ, the Classic will not Sweep, ever.
FW 2186.
Set manual EQ, Classic was in Float, but delivering little power, due to the Surface Charge of the FLA batts. Went to do a chore, returned twenty minutes later to check EQ progress. CC was delivering 315 Watts, stage was EQ MPPT. EQ V set to 62.8-ish temp comped. Vin was 115.4, Voc about 117.8V, battery volts = 51.4-ish.
Air Con was running, and the battery was discharging at about a 15 A DC rate. Pressed Enter, nothing happened, pressed it again, again, again .... and again, and no new Sweep.
So pressed the Left Soft button about thirty times, and that got the Vin, to about 85 V, and the CC was making about 3800 Watts.
This seems to always occur for the above set of parameters, and actions.
IMO, it seems that in L P&O Mode, that the CC does not (possibly EVER), make a new sweep, after entering Float on its own, at least, when a Manual EQ has been initiated.
Have also seen this happen when switching from Solar Mode, to L P&O when EQ has been initiated :
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4211.msg41338#msg41338
I am saying this to, perhaps, help others, AND, also if the MPPT Tracking routine is being ported to the new lines of MN CCs -- also, it is quite possible the neither the Hawkes Bay, nor the Barcelona, have the L P&O function ... but, just in case ...
We often use L P&O, when there is smoke from wildfires, or some cloudiness.
FYI, Thanks, Vic
Thank you Vic ! Sorry you have had to mention this yet again.
We are looking at taking care of a few bugs and/or annoyances in the Classic and MNGP.
This bit of information will help a lot !
boB... In rainy Ocean Shores and Washington state. Even Phoenix, AZ has a bad solar day today with rain that is needed.
Hi boB,
Thank you very much for the reply, appreciate all that you do.
73, keep dry, very little chance of any rain here in the next ten days. Have fun TU again, Vic
legacy mode, 12V system, parallel with victron 100/50
the midnite classic often doesn't start to work after switching over to float. it is just resting forever. just stays in resting mode. even though the V bat goes down to 13.2V. the only way to get it to work is to force absorb for a while and then force float again.
Quote from: australsolarier on October 02, 2021, 05:56:53 PM
legacy mode, 12V system, parallel with victron 100/50
the midnite classic often doesn't start to work after switching over to float. it is just resting forever. just stays in resting mode. even though the V bat goes down to 13.2V. the only way to get it to work is to force absorb for a while and then force float again.
Have you looked at the battery temperature compensated target voltage in the VIEW sub-menu under charging ? The battery voltage that the Classic sees has to fall below that target before it will try.
I would be surprised if it did not work but would like to know why, if it is doing this, AS
.
that voltage you are talking about seems to be 14V. that is the V absorb.
i am the bloke with the lifepo4 batteries and no temp compensation needed. the midnite seems to drop into resting mode, 38 if i remember. i think the problem has to do with the stiff voltages of the lifepo4. it doesn't do it in the 48V system. it has 4 midnites though, so not so visible if one does it, however i have never noticed it there.
i have tried solar mode, it does not do that symptom there. however it tends to half its output after an hour or so. which can be reset by turning off and on, but then does it again. the power room is airconditioned.
as i see it it might have something to do with the small voltage range , 14V absorb, 13.2V float.
Yeah... The Classic should just go to Float when Vbatt drops below that setpoint or target.
Not sure what is up. So, what is 38 ? Is that RFR ? Reason for Resting number ?
yes, resting 38 shows, if i remember correctly
RFR 38 means another charging source is pushing the battery voltage above the Classic FLOAT setting so I assume the classic is in FLOAT, this is normal. The Classic will not make/help charging unless the battery voltage falls below the float setting. Two high power charge modes are in the Classic, FLOAT MPPT and BULK. FLOAT MPPT won't kick in if VBATT is sitting > FLOAT setting.
If you want the classic to help and the other charger is the one pushing the battery volatge up then you need to use the Classic setting "REBULK" to make it go back into BULK and help.
The downside to this is it starts another ABSORB Time unless you setup and use correct ENDAMPS to terminate it when the battery gets full.
Here is my list of RFR numbers...
ReasonForResting = 1 Wake state, (Vpv < PreVoc AntiClickSenstvty (MB 4236)
ReasonForResting = 2 Insane Ibatt on WakeUp state RFR
ReasonForResting = 3 Negative current on WakeUp state
ReasonForResting = 4 dispavgVpv < (dispavgVbatt - 10) Now -25 (RestartTimerms = 1500)
ReasonForResting = 5 Too low power and Vbatt below set point for 90 seconds
ReasonForResting = 6 FETtemperature >= 98.4 (always at start ?, Main) Hot
ReasonForResting = 7 Ground Fault
ReasonForResting = 8 Arc Fault
ReasonForResting = 9 (IbattDisplaySi < -15) (negative current) (MB 4200)
ReasonForResting = 10 (dispavgVbatt < LBDlowV) Battery less than 8 Volts
ReasonForResting = 11 Vpv >= 90% of Voc but NOT fast enough. Low Light #1
ReasonForResting = 12 Vpv < 90% of Voc and taking too long. Low Light #2
ReasonForResting = 13 Vpv > (Voc + 10V) in PV_Uset || Solar1_OandP
ReasonForResting = 14 Vpv >= 90% of Voc but NOT fast enough. Low Light #3
ReasonForResting = 15 Vpv < 90% of Voc and taking too long. Low Light #4
ReasonForResting = 16 Normally because user turned MODE OFF... Disabled
ReasonForResting = 17 Vpv > HyperVocV150
ReasonForResting = 18 Vpv > HyperVocV200
ReasonForResting = 19 Vpv > HyperVocV250
ReasonForResting = 22 Average Battery Voltage is too high above set point (RestartTimerms = 2000)
ReasonForResting = 25 Battery breaker tripped (Vbatt shot up high)
(If RFR = 25 on Wakeup, check modbus register 4200)
ReasonForResting = 26 Mode changed while running, Vabsorb raised more than
10.0 Volts or Nominal Vbatt changed by modbus command
AND MpptMode was ON when changed... Otherwise, OK.
ReasonForResting = 27 bridge center == 1023 (R132 might have been stuffed)
ReasonForResting = 28 NOT Resting but RELAY is not engaged for some reason
ReasonForResting = 29 ON/OFF stays off because WIND GRAPH is insane
ReasonForResting = 30 PkAmpsOverLimit (will change somewhat 1-23-2013)
ReasonForResting = 31 AD1CH.IbattMinus > 900
ReasonForResting = 32 Aux 2 Logic input is high. Aux2Function 15 (Conflict with OCP in Solar and Uset 1-9-2013)
ReasonForResting = 33 OCP in a mode other than Solar or PV-Uset (1-10-2013)
ReasonForResting = 34 AD1CH.IbattMinus > 900 Classic 150,200 newer than 1-23-2013
ReasonForResting = 35 if(dispavgVbatt <= LBDlowV + 5) // state 0 11-27-2013 (Vbatt < 8.6 V)
ReasonForResting = 36 Battery temperature is Greater than reg address 4261
ReasonForResting = 136 Battery temperature fell below MB reg. 4161 - 10 C
ReasonForResting = 37 12-10-2014 SanityPwrChkDis LOW POWER CHECK <50W
ReasonForResting = 38 8-4-2015 External charger. zero watts @ set point 90 sec
ReasonForResting greater than 100... 100 + PowerOnReset, WDT, etc...
ReasonForResting = 104 Watchdog WDT reset (only at boot until first RFR)
ReasonForResting = 111 Normal Power up boot (only at boot until first RFR)
100 + 1 = POR, 2 = Ext. Reset 4 = WDT 8 = Brown Out
POR, WDT, External Reset (from the reset pin), Power On Reset, Watch Dog Timer,
wizbandit,
yes, i agree with you are saying.
the V float setting is 13.4V. however, like described above, sometimes the midnite just doesn't wake up even though the midnite reading of V float goes down to 13.2V. and i turn off the external source.
so, it seems to me that "reason for resting 38" seems to have a timer built in that sometimes does not end. (like maybe that timer is too short?)
usually when after the float change the midnite kicks in quite early, so to say parallel with the victron.
it seems to me it also has something to do with the stiff voltage of lifepo4 batteries.
as for rebulk, ah yes, i described that above, i "force bulk" , wait till it settles in, then "force float" and then it also works. (if you rebulk you might get the same problem again)
anyway it is a minor issue
investigating closer,
the midnite swtiches to float. the batteries are discharging. but too slow for the classic. after a minute or so he switches to "resting (38: unknown)
the battery voltage showing on the classic shows 13.3V (float it is supposed to be 13.4V.
the battery now slowly discharges. the voltage on the midnite goes down to 13.2V after about a 40 amp discharge.
now then, he switches to float,
but now the classic is pissed off because the victron is all the time working. even though in float he only contributes 1 or 2 watts.
ok, we wait to see what happens.
after so 50amps discharge of battery he ramps up somewhat, but the voltage is down to 13.1V (on the classic read out)
the battery is less discharging, though but never the less keeps on discharging.
force bulk, the midnite by now is really angry. slow work protest. only 50-% of capacity
i had to do a bully reboot to get him out of the lethargic state.
as far as i concerned that "resting" timer should be prolonged to 10 minutes or so. i don't quite understand why the timer to resting is only 60 seconds or so. obviously the night takes hours to switch to bulk in the morning
AS, sounds like it is just too close to Float voltage ?
The Classic, in any particular mode like Absorb or Float will let the voltage fall slightly below the actual set point (couple tenths) before it will return to the MPPT mode for that voltage. Maybe what you are seeing is related to that ? Haven't thought about this but for a minute so maybe something else.
RFR #38 means there is another charging source. In your case, it went to Float after being up at Absorb voltage and the battery had to bleed off a bit.
I'm not sure what you mean by staying off for 10 minutes rather than 60 seconds ?
At least you had a 2nd charging source so not really a need for anything to bring the voltage up ?
What we did at OutBack was to let the battery voltage fall below Float until a Re-Float voltage was reached and then it would come back to life and Float for a while. That was to reduce unnecessary wear on the batteries. I know you are not wanting this to happen here. Just thought I'd give you a positive point for that
Now, I am not sure what happened when you rebooted the Classic ? It should have come back up with a brand new bulk/absorb charge.
Did you force a new Float ? Was there lots of sun ?
Not battery temp compensation modifying the set point ? I seem to remember in a previous posting that this was not the case but just checking.
well about that timer : when it switches from absorb to float: the charge status says float, the classic does not produce, after ca 60 seconds it drops into that resting 38 status. so there must be a timer in there that decides : aha nothing happening i go to sleep. (that is the timer i am talking about.)
the day i described above was totally sunny. the load was about 1.5kw. the victron produces max so about 710w. so, capacity, should bleed of to the 13.4 float set point. the victron recognizes that and slowly starts to ramp up. now as you can see we are using 1500w and producing 700w, at some time you would think the classic will kick in again and not keep on sleeping. i mean, the classic does NOT know there is another dc source, unless that dc source is larger than consumption.
in the winter the panels of the victron are much reduced as they are horizontal for cloudy weather gain. then, it seems the classic kicks in before that 38 timer kicks in and stops everything. input is then pretty much balanced half and half between the victron and classic. except when the victron maxes out. so at the moment victron has 268 and classic 276w.
to get the classic to work again, i have to force bulk, wait till the sweeps stop, then force float. then the classic usually behaves.
i should here also mention i have lifepo4 batteries, 800ah. and the solar controllers are totally over powered.
no temp compensation.
and ah yes, it comes back to the difference of lead acid and lifepo4 batteries. there does not seem to be that problem with the 48V setup. (4 classics and a large victron) the voltages of the lifepo4's are quite stiff. there is a big difference in 13.3 and 13.1 V somewhere near 80%.
i might set the float V of the victron lower to see how that works.
anyway, thanks for listening, urs
bob,
i have now proof that that there is a timer to switch from "float" to "resting 38:Unknown" status after switching from absorb to float.
i reduced the the float V of the victron by 5mV. so the victron kicked in a bit later. that 38 status appeared before the victron started to feed current. (slowly ramping the current up)
so i remain convinced it is that timer switching from float to 38 that creates the problem.
so now the classid sits there sulking and protesting that it does not want to work with a lithium battery. because, i want to work with lead acid. i hate lifepo4. i protest.
ohhh, as a matter of fact, as i am writing this, the classic decided to spite me and kicked into float. the ratio is of currents are 1 to 2 now with the classic doing the bigger part.
yes maybe the problem is the classic just doesn't want to work 50/50 with the victron impostor.
i keep you posted
AS, How do you change the Victron's set point by 5 mV ? That is VERY small.
What happens if you turn OFF the Victron ? Does the Classic ever come back to Float voltage ?
boB
Bob,
sorry that was -50mV on the victron
ok, so i turned off the victron. which as expected did not change anything.
it seems, after switching from absorb to float, once it turns to 38 resting (also do get 8 negative current) it does something to the software in the classic. the V at the classic goes down to 13.1 and it does turn in float again, but does not charge, just a few watts (45) and fluctuating. turning on a heater then pulls down the voltage. float mppt appears with the same fickle low wattage. 12.8V is rebulk, it will then turn into bulk mppt and does full power.
so, in my humble opinion, just observing, once it falls into resting 38, it is buggered. if it happens not to fall into that resting 38, it works normally. (so that timer should be put to 10 minutes) it shouldn't even switch to resting 38 ( a relay is clicking)
it has done this since i had that classic, off and on. this is in legacy.
solar seems not to do this, though testing now, but that brings other problems.
now i agree, this might not show up with lead acid batteries.
Set your REBULK voltage to .5v less than FLOAT and ABSORB TIME=5min
And if that doesn't work set REBULK to .1V less than FLOAT
wizbandit,
i am not sure you understand the problem.
what you are suggesting is an indefinite cycle of rebulk, then not faling in float properly and rebulking again, etc etc.
and! rebulk is already set to 13.1V (float is set to 13.4V)
this problem cannot be solved by rebulking. the problem is after switching from absorb to bulk due to the longish discharge of the lifepo4 battery, the classic enters a resting mode. and then from there on it will never recuperate, until the rebulking sets in.
if it happens not to fall into resting 38, it works normally.
to me the problem is, the classic was originally designed for lead acid. and they never much experimented with lifepo4 batteries.
Yes, I understand. The Classic was never designed to charge lithium batteries and most likely never will have the necessary code to accommodate them. We can only do what we can with lead battery settings. There is no timer on RFR38, most timers in the Classic are 90 seconds or less. If you want RFR38 to go away, set the other charging source to less voltage than the Classic or turn off the other charger or upgrade it to another Classic. One issue is the 12 volt system coupled with the fact that the Classic only has a + or - .1V resolution due to the fact the data is store in a signed integer register and calibration being off by this amount and wire resistance can be + or = -.2 to -.4V according to current flow. All of this contributes to the effects you are seeing. I personally have 4 Classics charging a big lithium battery and everything works perfect. Now if you think your Classic is "busted" I can open an RMA for you to send it back to us for evaluation and/or repairs. That would be covered if it it still in warranty.
the classic is not "busted"
and yes in my 48V system i do not have that problem. and there are four classics and a victron hooked up also.
there is no timer for 38 resting >>> so what makes the classic turn over to resting 38 after float? it is certainly probably your 90 seconds. i don't understand why it even drops into resting 38. i understand when there is no PV.
you will also find in my situtation where it goes to resting 38, there is no current flowing so therefore no voltage loss, at least from the busbar to the classic.
Quote from: australsolarier on October 13, 2021, 11:42:17 PM
there is no timer for 38 resting >>> so what makes the classic turn over to resting 38 after float? it is certainly probably your 90 seconds. i don't understand why it even drops into resting 38. i understand when there is no PV.
Two things are causing RFR38, 1-The terminal voltage after charging a lithium is > FLOAT and <= ABSORB settings.
Terminal voltage of a full 12V Lithium is always > the Classic FLOAT setting. When your lithium voltage is lower than the FLOAT setting, I would guess its SOC is down 10-20% or more.
So, what is keeping the lithium voltage > the Classic FLOAT setting? The Lithium itself OR another charging source.
Lithium's don't need, like nor require a FLOAT voltage. Lead needs a 3-stage charge, bulk, absorb, float. Lithium battery needs a new setup without float.
Like this. Classic lithium MODE, one charge setting, "FULL", so FULL setting = 14.5V, stop charge, switch mode to read FULL instead of FLOAT. During charging set mode to CHARGE (not BULK,ABSORB or FLOAT)
Using the lithium terminal voltage to determine SOC is problematic, unlike lead the terminal voltage of lithium stays relatively high until a certain level of discharge.
So that being said, the ONLY way for the Classic to know when to kick back on is to monitor the battery current SHUNT. Have a user setting for SOC% or measured AH taken from the battery.
So a needed setting would be say, set 1 or 5 or 10Ah Mr Classic please help charge my battery when this much energy is removed and not restored by another charger. Classic switches from FULL to CHARGE until the setting for FULL=14.5 is reached again.
The ONLY thing we can do a present is NOT let the Classic go to FLOAT.
Cycling between ABSORB & BULK using REBULK is the best we can do, this keeps the Classic out of FLOAT and since the lowest CHARGE TIME we can set in ABSORB is 3 minutes (yea, why not 0?, engineer set it to minimum 3min for some reason)
there is little chance this "Lithium programming" will be added to the Classic or KID chargers, if it is concdered look at about 6 to 24 months.
.
why are you giving me lectures about lifepo4 batteries?
besides many of the points about lifepo4 i do not agree with you.
naming "float" and "absorb" different names does not change anything one iota. they are just words to describe a state of a charger.
i agree with you however that the classic was designed with lead acid in mind. and midnite somehow missed the boat with lithium. bob himself mentioned they do not have the time nor the money to test the classic with lithium.
Quote from: australsolarier on October 14, 2021, 04:04:49 PM
why are you giving me lectures about lifepo4 batteries?
besides many of the points about lifepo4 i do not agree with you.
naming "float" and "absorb" different names does not change anything one iota. they are just words to describe a state of a charger.
i agree with you however that the classic was designed with lead acid in mind. and midnite somehow missed the boat with lithium. bob himself mentioned they do not have the time nor the money to test the classic with lithium.
The Classic has worked well for many people using Lithium batteries of different sorts.
Normally, as far as I have seen that needs to happen is that the Classic needs to charge up to a voltage... The Absorb voltage... and then either stay there for a while, or until Aux2 input is told to stop by the BMS logic (which was added to the Classic exclusively for Lithium), OR just reach the Absorb voltage and then turn OFF. No Float. Or, in that case, setting FLOAT voltage to some very low value that would never occur so same as off.
What is your BMS want when it gets "charged"
As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "Float" stage for Lithium batteries.
Your BMS would be the first one I had heard of, AS.
OR, I am missing something ?
boB
bob,
my BMS is a passive one. it does not tell anybody or anything outside what to do or not do. it does however disconnect the battery if something is amiss, like over current, over V/under V, low or high cell. (the classic alone decides when the battery is fully loaded. that is how almost all the systems work using classics)
yes, a lifepo4 has a float voltage. generally V absorb is 3.5V, float is 3.35V the recommended charging is thus:
charging full steam up to 3.5V then the current flattens out. when the current is down to 0.02C (with the help of the whizbang jr) and after the timer, it switches to float. this is how most lifepo4 owners do it. (there are some very verbose newbies that need to learn out of their own experience, but most will eventually come down to this.)
now there are, mostly were, people that made their own battery banks with lion (like old laptop cells) and they have different voltages, V absorb 4.2V and they did not have float for some reason.
bob, the reason for the 3.5V absorb has something to do with the speed of charging. you can set the V absorb/float to 3.35V. but it would take hours or days to get a full charge. also, as you probably well know, the SOC meter resets at the absorb/float switch to 100%.
what i do not understand is why after switching to float, after what i strongly suspect, 60 or 90 seconds, the classic switches to that fabled resting 38 state, a relay is clicking, and from there on usually no recuperation. if the voltage falls fast enough, before that 38 resting appears, everything is honkey dory.
now compare this to the victron, as the voltage starts to drop it slowly kicks in, just as the classic does if this happens before it commits suicide with 38. now i do not understand why it needs to drop into that 38.
bob, we talked before about lithium not having float before. you were talking about years ago when they first appeared and who knows what chemistry that was. most people that build their own systems are using lifepo4 chemistry. the reason for that is they are a fairly safe chemistry fire problem wise and they are also cheap and readily available.
sorry now, my turn for unwanted lecturing
OK, so the Absorb would (or should) be complete when battery ending amps falls below your 0.02C setting.... While sitting AT the Absorb voltage of course. This makes total sense.
I understand that if the voltage falls below Float voltage set point before 90 seconds it works fine.
Did I hear what happens if you disable the Victron charger ?
I'm sure the "float" voltage that is talked about would only be applicable when sun is available to hold that voltage when the system is loaded.
Otherwise the batteries will have to power the loads without any help.... Like at night.
But I would like to know what happens when RFR 38 is happening and when it is not happening when the Victron is disabled from helping out.
Does the Classic not start up again at any voltage or time after RFR 38 ? Do you ALWAYS have to restart the Classic ?
hi Bob,
disabled the victron yesterday with the same result (getting 38 )
more testing with victron enabled, cloudy conditions, the classic actually switched float, but more due to reduced generation in absorb. (this sometimes happens, the classic does not know why 0.02C happens, just measures current), this time the classic started to produce current before falling into resting 38. (you will also find doing many bulk sessions in short order things go much faster than just normally when it happens once a day)
that whole situation also is dependent on the seasons. like in summer more likely than winter.
and yes, there is always heaps of solar power available to keep the float set point V.
Quote from: australsolarier on October 14, 2021, 07:46:45 PM
hi Bob,
disabled the victron yesterday with the same result (getting 38 )
The Classic NEVER charges again ? I guess that THIS is what I do not understand regarding this whole deal.
Quote from: australsolarier on October 14, 2021, 07:46:45 PM
more testing with victron enabled, cloudy conditions, the classic actually switched float, but more due to reduced generation in absorb. (this sometimes happens, the classic does not know why 0.02C happens, just measures current), this time the classic started to produce current before falling into resting 38. (you will also find doing many bulk sessions in short order things go much faster than just normally when it happens once a day)
that whole situation also is dependent on the seasons. like in summer more likely than winter.
and yes, there is always heaps of solar power available to keep the float set point V.
So, you are not using a Whizbang Junior ? That would tell the Classic when 0.02C happens.
the system has the whizz bang jr
just saying, when in absorb 0.02C can be reached when cloud cover reduces the power. so say in sun there are still 40A going into the battery. but cloud reduces the current to the trigger.