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General Category => New Product Ideas and Discussion => Topic started by: nigel on June 15, 2012, 11:17:27 AM

Title: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: nigel on June 15, 2012, 11:17:27 AM
Im not aware of Midnite considering a unit but it would appear to be a logical step, whether now is the time to spend heavy on R&D
is questionable ? but I thought there is no harm in allowing people to air views. Im an Outback Inverter Charger Fan 95% of all my Inv Chg sales or  installs are OB . So there may be some cross over on my wish list.

Firstly Must be a Bug Free Case design, leads to longer life less warranty claims .
On site serviceable. modular repair boards.
3 Wire Gen Start. (Could be a plug in module upgrade to keep base units cost down)
Easy Internet - Lan Conection again could be a plug in module.
Allowing a PC to replace the display like upcoming Classic Lite
PFC Charging.
If a research stage is penned for the future maybe a questionnaire for members would be benifical.

Nigel

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on June 16, 2012, 01:18:53 PM
Gee, if H bridge, then it's 85% of the way to being an inverter too !

if it had user selectable 120 or 240 output taps, and a fine tune adj for the Freq Xtal, to keep the off-grid clocks straight.......    Sort of a clone of the generator support part of the XW inverters with their nice PF chargers....
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 23, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
We have been working on an inverter design for many years. It has not been a large priority, but that is about to change. We still have a long ways to go though. Selectable 120/240 taps are not simple. It would complicate the product to no end, so I do not think this will happen. 50/60Hz selection is a possibility though. Hmmmm. if we made a 240VAC 60Hz unit, it wouldn't be too much trouble to also allow 230VAC 50Hz operation. Going from 120 to 240 is a lot more than just adding a tap. Think about charging and stacking. Gets messy real quick.
PFC charger would be a must.
Generator support would also be a must. (not easy though).
Three wire start is something we did at Trace on the SW inverter. Guess what most of our issues were? Three wire start generators! That is why we decided to do only two wire start at Outack. My feelings are that three wire start generators are portable units that have wheels and handles. I HATE generators with wheels and handles. They are not intended for unattended operation. They are also not intended for remote starting. They were designed for the operator to be there turning a key until the engine starts. I do not think we will be adding this as part of the inverter. Like Nigel said, possibly a plug in attachment. Internet is a good thing to add. PC for the display on an inverter is OK too. Don't know for sure on that one, but it may make sense. We would also need something like the display on the Classic. Maybe it will be the display on the Classic. That little device is very powerful.
Repairable and replaceable boards would probably happen. I designed the OutBack inverter to do that and it was the right decision. No reason to change on a new unit. We will be starting with a small inverter. A large 4 to 5KW inverter will take more time.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: nigel on June 24, 2012, 01:47:29 PM
A valid point on the 3 wire generator start system. Ive fitted 2 wire systems to mine and other large generators with the manufacturers
built in auto start (two wires for off or on)
They are expensive additions to the generators over all cost but then they do interface and monitor a lot of parameters.
With hindsight of your post, and my professional choice of not selling  generators for installs I can see why you made this decision.

Only three things are certain with generators !
They cost a lot of money to buy
They cost a lot of money to run
They cost a lot of money to repair. 

Nigel
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on June 27, 2012, 12:25:54 AM
If possible it would be great to make the charger a bit more flexible ie to handle lower AGM batt charging V limits and be in the 50A range and invert in the 2000W range, eh? piece of cake he says...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on June 27, 2012, 01:33:57 AM
Quote from: Westbranch on June 27, 2012, 12:25:54 AM
If possible it would be great to make the charger a bit more flexible ie to handle lower AGM batt charging V limits and be in the 50A range and invert in the 2000W range, eh? piece of cake he says...


Yes and don't forget to charge them  for a piece of inverter cake !



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: vtmaps on June 27, 2012, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 23, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
We have been working on an inverter design
<snip>
PFC charger would be a must.
<snip>
I designed the OutBack inverter
Robin, I'm curious... why did you not make PFC charger on the Outback?  --vtMaps
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on June 27, 2012, 03:09:39 PM
Quote from: vtmaps on June 27, 2012, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 23, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
We have been working on an inverter design
<snip>
PFC charger would be a must.
<snip>
I designed the OutBack inverter
Robin, I'm curious... why did you not make PFC charger on the Outback?  --vtMaps

That wasn't Robin's decision.  It was the engineer's.

We would have preferred for it to be PFC.

boB



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on July 05, 2012, 02:07:05 AM
Just a quiet voice from out here in the ether,

three wire start is a *bad* (fsvo bad) idea. And that's a period at the end of the declarative statement.

Folks who are so inclined, can kludge up their own bad idea three wire start from a two wire start if they MUST run
a portable genset as if it were a proper unattended genset, another less-than-optimal idea.

wheels and handles are handy for that size genset, because you can wheel it over to the neighbors and run their fridge/freezer for
an hour or so every now and again, very handy. But they are not continuous duty back up and never were intended to be such.
Folks insisting that manufacturers integrate stuff that isn't meant to be integrated, , , , errr, , , okay. nuff said. I know it's a popular
idea. Kinda like push button windows in cars. :)

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: unicornio on October 18, 2012, 07:44:21 AM
awesome thread! ... hoping you come back for years to do it! ... an good inverter/charger (another good inverter/charger) can be something  strategic for midnite, so I encourage you! ...;-)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ChrisOlson on October 24, 2012, 12:47:25 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 23, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
My feelings are that three wire start generators are portable units that have wheels and handles.

Ummm.... no.  There's a lot of really nice diesel gensets out there that are three-wire start and require a Glow/Stop relay because they don't have a built-in controller on the genset.  Failure to do three-wire support will only be as infuriating as it has been with the Outback stuff and having to buy a $450 Atkinson controller.  It's only one little tiny extra relay to provide three-wire vs two, along with some additional programming to operate it.

Trace/Xantrex has always been the Gold Standard when it comes to being able to support virtually any generator for auto-start right out of the box - at way less money than it costs if a person has an Outback system.

Sure - Outback always recommended the GSCM-Mini (which is cheaper than the Real Deal).  But the Mini is a joke - basically a starting battery killer and starter drive wrecker with its default 20 second crank time.

There's several reasons the XW pretty much kicks the FX-series' butt every way from Sunday.
--
Chris
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: unicornio on October 24, 2012, 06:16:42 AM
I think the automatic starting system with three wires is outdated, although it is still used today, which is being manufactured now is the remote start with only two wires ...

I believe that the manufacturer of an inverter perfectly fulfills its function with a simple relay contact to start the genset.   the complete maneuver to starting a diesel generator is very complicated and varies greatly from one to another genset, and is very difficult for an inverter manufacturer sells a system that fits all ...

for that, there are many equipment manufacturers that sell very cheap, (as deepsea electronics), and complete contol, which makes fully configurable modules to start any generator and make complete control of the maneuver and the protections needed ...

but only this is necessary if the genset itself not includes its own controller, which are now the most ...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Surfpath on October 30, 2012, 09:41:44 AM
Hi (adding to the inverter discussion),
I'm probably representative of the "plug and play" customer who is unlikely to run to the nearest volt-meter when the lights dim.  But here's my thought....

Over the last year after reading countless forum & blog entries, what seems missing in the off-grid market is a relatively small, simple unvented puresine inverter that is just large enough to start a fridge.  Say 1,800-2000 watts peak.  The Suresine300 is a good example of what I mean, but something larger that would capture the small house/cabin crowd that need a little more 'juice'.

I'm surprised the MStar folks haven't come up with that already.

2 cents.
SP   
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on October 30, 2012, 06:40:59 PM
Quote from: unicornio on October 24, 2012, 06:16:42 AM
I think the automatic starting system with three wires is outdated, although it is still used today, which is being manufactured now is the remote start with only two wires ...

I believe that the manufacturer of an inverter perfectly fulfills its function with a simple relay contact to start the genset.   the complete maneuver to starting a diesel generator is very complicated and varies greatly from one to another genset, and is very difficult for an inverter manufacturer sells a system that fits all ...

for that, there are many equipment manufacturers that sell very cheap, (as deepsea electronics), and complete contol, which makes fully configurable modules to start any generator and make complete control of the maneuver and the protections needed ...

but only this is necessary if the genset itself not includes its own controller, which are now the most ...


Maybe something like the Magnum MMS series of inverter/chargers ??

http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MMSseries.htm



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 28, 2012, 03:23:37 AM
We want Midnite Lites! 8)

OK, I want a Midnite Lite! What is it? A 500W TSW 120V inverter/charger. Stackable of course! Right now I'm using a VFX 3524 to power the electric blanket at nite when the grid fails here in the city at my small condo mancave. 60W load....OK, + a few other "Lite" loads like the TV, PC etc. All total under 500W. I know, OVERKILL, but it's a spare and it may as well get some use now and then.

Long term grid failure is rare in the city here and running a genny is not really an option even short term. I'll keep using the VFX until boBin comes up with some "Midnite Lites"  :) The Magnum MMS looks good but the next inverter I get will be made by MS, no exceptions! So here I sit patiently waiting........ ;D





Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: phonetic on November 29, 2012, 06:14:14 AM
Its in the DNA of Midnite solar..to produce a Inverter Charger.
North West Pacific is the epicenter of where Inverter Chargers are born   ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on November 29, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
Quote from: onanparts on November 28, 2012, 03:23:37 AM
We want Midnite Lites! 8)

OK, I want a Midnite Lite! What is it? A 500W TSW 120V inverter/charger. Stackable of course! Right now I'm using a VFX 3524 to power the electric blanket at nite when the grid fails here in the city at my small condo mancave. 60W load....OK, + a few other "Lite" loads like the TV, PC etc. All total under 500W. I know, OVERKILL, but it's a spare and it may as well get some use now and then.

Long term grid failure is rare in the city here and running a genny is not really an option even short term. I'll keep using the VFX until boBin comes up with some "Midnite Lites"  :) The Magnum MMS looks good but the next inverter I get will be made by MS, no exceptions! So here I sit patiently waiting........ ;D


Until then, have you tried heavier blankets ??


Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 29, 2012, 07:21:07 PM
I think we should call it the Inver-Lite and
it could be modulized (?) so that if Comm's are wanted , add them, or use the Local App (modified)
if is the prime mover it is ROBUST,  as they say about a good wine (even if it is called Lite) and
beefy enough to run a fridge, 600W min? never mind that electric blanket...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on November 29, 2012, 07:29:45 PM
@westbranch;

Yes, yes and of course.

Modular, rugged, tightly restrained magic smoke, More communication options than a class room  full of teenage girls. Stackable, multiple input voltage capable.

And, of course, less cost than a Ferrari.

I could go on but perfection is not achieved when nothing more can be added but rather when nothing more can be removed and accomplish the goals.


And the monkey clicks the button..

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 01, 2012, 04:28:56 AM
Quote from: boB on November 29, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
Quote from: onanparts on November 28, 2012, 03:23:37 AM
We want Midnite Lites! 8)

OK, I want a Midnite Lite! What is it? A 500W TSW 120V inverter/charger. Stackable of course! Right now I'm using a VFX 3524 to power the electric blanket at nite when the grid fails here in the city at my small condo mancave. 60W load....OK, + a few other "Lite" loads like the TV, PC etc. All total under 500W. I know, OVERKILL, but it's a spare and it may as well get some use now and then.

Long term grid failure is rare in the city here and running a genny is not really an option even short term. I'll keep using the VFX until boBin comes up with some "Midnite Lites"  :) The Magnum MMS looks good but the next inverter I get will be made by MS, no exceptions! So here I sit patiently waiting........ ;D


Until then, have you tried heavier blankets ??


Yes I did. But when I tried flashing a custom ROM it said "Go to jail, Go directly to Jail, Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.00 :( Rooting an electric blanket is a pain even with a miniSDK.....


back to the original story...that 500W Midnite Lite should have room in the box to add a second 500W module. Now the refridgeadeezer can join in the fun. Could be used series or parallel. Not much need for 240VAC@1KW around here in the US but them thar foreign country's with lots of small 240VAC 50Hz appliances would be happy.

But when you add a second Midnite Lite with dual modules.... :) Is auto sensing input asking too much? 12V-48V.



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: nigel on December 08, 2012, 04:33:16 PM
Hmmm 500 watt 1000 watt inverter charger........very small market place IMHO.
In 3 years Ive sold one MS Suresine  300w inverter (emergency get me by purchase)
95% of my sales on Off Grid installs are OB 3 Kw inverters across Spain
Online sales across Europe very similar ! The next 3% are OB 6Kw systems
 
I currently run a OB VFX3048E in a 3 double Bed House, all lifes luxurys Big Tv,s & Air Con heating and cooling . So  3 Kw if managed correctly covers every thing easily. This years generator fuel bill is looking around $120 plus we pay a lot more for our gas per gallon than you guys do !!!

The cost difference between a 2KW OB FX  and a 3 KW VFX is about 8 to 10% retail, for a 50% power increase. Thats a eye opener !  :o

I suspect MNS want to cover the largest market with there first inverter! So close to  3 Kw is my suggested choice in EU form of  230v @ 50Hz .
Outback has a good strong reputation over here and rightly so, extremely reliable, field servicable  with minimum down time when
things go wrong.(very few and far between )  Thats why I like them !!!!  If I had one or 2 bugs to say about OB  it would be the Mate Menu System (2 series) is not end user friendly,  and the plastic mount for the surface mate is a joke, consider like Magnum do a very cut down version of the digital display which lets the end user have minimum JEEP functions that  they need. It can be a full Blown controller with a locked out JEEP option for the end client

Im soon to go to a SMA 5 Kw inverter charger not because I need the extra power but so that I can move to 2 Classics with a proper
interface with my complete system

The only advantage i can see initially of the extra 2Kw is I can leave the aircon full power on when I make a expresso with my 1800 watt coffee machine. Not the biggest chore in the world . Plus I can use my mig welder at full power  :o 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on December 08, 2012, 04:51:40 PM
Quote from: nigel on December 08, 2012, 04:33:16 PM
Hmmm 500 watt 1000 watt inverter charger........very small market place IMHO.

Nigel;

That is where the "modular" bit I mentioned comes in. One "master" unit and as many power modules as you need. If your needs change, you add more power modules. Be really neat if you could stack or parallel the power modules for flexibility too. It provides a bit of redundancy, as well.

Just my wild off the wall out of left field thought. And as long as we are dreaming.  :o

Lots of folks, myself included, start small and grow a system, usually by replacing the first inverter.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: nigel on December 08, 2012, 05:06:46 PM
Tom I agree modular is good, but if a 3 kw machine is 10% more expensive that  a 2 kw machine, my sales patter is made pretty easy.
Linking 2 OB units is not cheap you need a Mate and a Hub. Ok  so I know its been around a while and newer systems need less kit for modular use like the Classic , but I suspect the most of  that extra 50% power that a VFX has over an FX is more down to ventalation and cooling and maybe a slighly larger transformer  than electronics. The price difference seems to suggest it ?

Also I was really excited when OB launched the baby GFX 1400 w @ 24 and 48v 1300 w @ 12v its very competitive price against the EU competitors watts wise  for € (euros) but Ive sold 2 in 12 months against 40+ VFX units and several FP1 3kw systems  and a couple  of FP2 6kw systems .  By the way its about 25% cheaper than a VFX with less than 50% output and charger  capability ! 
I suspect that its failure to catch on in the market place  is for its relative power delivery you need to spend 25% more  on a Mate to fully utilise its ample  capabilities !

I will add that my main customer base is people buying off grid properties and land and are usually coming  from a on grid former home and except that they have to make compromise to there former on grid life..........but if 3kw of power reduces there sacrifices greatly for probably  less that 2% of the over all install cost...batteries,turbines, solar.... then it is never going to be an issue. But I appreciate my demographic is not a universal fit, but its where Im seeing increasing sales in bear markets across the EU at least.   

The 500w to a 1000 watt inverter charger market is a wash with cheap throw away products most with seriously poor charging capabilities and programming limits, I cant see why MN would want to compete at this level , buying a 500w or 1000 watt Inv Chg with ability to add modules slot in or plug in in an expanded case seems folly to me.

Also a final point where in the MN family product line up does a 500 watt or 1000 watt inverter charger marry up to the Classic 150 @ 96 amp MPPT  charge controller input capacity blend...blend..............blend   ??? it just doesn,t.   I assume the new non LITE Inverter Charger from Midnite will be a perfect blend to its current product portfolio ? 

A well balanced off grid system design thus  marries loads to battery capacity.. renewable input capacity ... generator input capacity and at present a 500 w or 1000w inverter charger is not a family member IMHO !
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 08, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
Nigel, Yes we are developing a series of 500 watt inverters. We do not plan on these being a product for your market though. That would be something much larger. We want to get the bugs out of the design at this lower power level. The 500 watt battery based inverter matches the other two inverters also under development that create a "guys toy". I'm not sure we have disclosed the whole project yet? The inverter will be stackable using a simple phone cable and it will have PFC charging and two inputs and grid tie and communications, but it will not be capable of 12,24 and 48V selectable operation. That is too much of a compromise. We certainly could do a 120/240 50/60Hz switchable version though, but that would require a lot of thought and engineering. It is not a bad idea though. Maybe second generation? I do not know what compromises would result from such an animal. Their ain't no free lunch. It would cost something and would be more complicated. The compromises may not be that bad depending on how smart we are. Some of our engineers really enjoy beating their head against the wall to solve tough problems. This would be one of them.
The real off-grid/grid tie inverter that I envision would be modular if we can make that affordable. The affordable thing is a big "if".
We would like to make a mainframe that would accept multiple plug in modules. Each module would be around 2000 to 3000 watts. The Mainframe box may be too expensive. I just do not know yet, but if we can figure out how to make it cheap enough, the modular concept has a lot of merit. Unfortunately everyone would be stuck with the overhead of a mainframe. I have not had much thought on this subject though as we are still just working on the electronics. Suffice it to say we will be incorporating pretty much every feature imaginable. I am not convinced about adding three wire start though as most of those generators have wheels and handles. Another way to spell wheels and handles is "telephone support with customers too cheap to buy a real generator where they want the inverter manufacturer to fix their stupid POS generator problems that won't work due to horrible regulation and such". There, now do you know how I feel about cheap generators?
We will have to research deisel generators. I do not know what they are up to these days. If we have to support three wire generator start, then we are opening up ourselves to the wheel and handle guys. We will do what the market requires of course, so even though I do not want to support 3 wire start, that doesn't mean we won't do it. We can always hang up if they say they bought the generator at Home Depot I guess?
No, not really, we wouldn't do that, but after having been in this business as long as I have, I know the types of questions people have regarding generators. We would probably need to charge another fifty to a hundred bucks on each inverter if we did a 3 wire generator start. How does that sound? I don't like it much myself.
Hey this is totally off topic, but I thought I would mention it. Bob came up with a way to make a real battery status monitor like the Magnum BMK, Outback FNDC and Trimetric. It would be pretty complicated to hook up. It would have exactly one wire! Oh yeah, it would also retail for $59. It would hook up to a 500 amp shunt and the Classic (with its one wire). If there is a bunch of interest in this, we should probably start a different thread. I do not know how to do that?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 09, 2012, 01:32:22 AM
robin,
i'm curious why the 500w rating on the inverter? that seems a tad low for most applications. i'd probably say 600-700w would cover most requested items that need to be run and allows headroom for some surge.

maybe i missed it mentioned, but i have to ask, what battery voltages are you going to set up the inverters for? if they are stackable you would probably want them all at 48v as the battery bank could get very large with high currents with paralleled batteries. at the same time it might be a pain to need 4 12v batteries though for just 1 inverter at 500w or even a few hundred watts higher as i proposed.

that battery monitor sounds very intriguing.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: vtmaps on December 09, 2012, 07:49:28 AM
Quote from: Robin on December 08, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
Yes we are developing a series of 500 watt inverters.

I am looking to buy an inverter now (500 watts would be fine).  What I want to see is a very low no-load draw.   It will be a second inverter that is on 24/7 (I'm offgrid with outback vfx3524).  I only need the outback's power a few hours per week.

I like the specs on the Victron Phoenix inverter:  24 v DC, 800 watts pure sine wave, 5 watt no load draw (2 watts in search mode).

I would buy one today, but as far as I can tell they have outlets and are certified for marine use.  I want something (with a midnite logo) that I can hard wire to my ePanel.

--vtMaps
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: nigel on December 09, 2012, 11:07:22 AM
Ive started a new topic for the Classic based battery Monitor.

On the Generator 2 Wire 3 Wire Start. In relation to Diesel generators over here which are fit for purpose ie skid mount or canopy covered
The auto start option ie two wire off-on is a upgrade choice on most manufacturers standard control panels .Doesnt matter if  your buying a Single Cylinder Aircooled Diesel like mine at 5kw. Or a 4 or 6 cylinder water cooled 25 kw unit  the price is the same around $600 to upgrade.

As these manufacturers AGS unit has enough channels to accommodate the various sensors fitted to the said  generator unit such as Oil Level, Oil Pressure  , Water Temp and so on it safely monitors the gen unit and can shunt it down if a problem occurrs.  Also I would imagine anyone fitting a non manufacture 3 wire start system with or without hooking up to all the gensets sensors  would probably invalidate the Genset manufactures warranty. Plus on a further note we are lucky enough to know a Mechanic who has the automotive diagnostic equipment who told us that all the latest ( 5 years or more) Diesel Generators made over here are fitted with the same system as cars and trucks so fault codes and servicing data can be read. We called him out for a Gesan 13kw Diesel with an intermittent start fault, he pluged in his automotive based system and immediately diagnose a faulty temp sensor, but also told us that this particular genset  had not been serviced since new by a authorized and trained technician. 

Back to the new inverter guess Ill be waiting a little longer for my main market  :'(
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on December 09, 2012, 01:59:00 PM
Just wanted to lend another voice to the '500w is fine by me' crowd.

I already have a bigger inverter, as do a lot of folks. There are plenty of large inverters out
there, but pretty much nothing in a true sine at this scale.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vern Faulkner on December 09, 2012, 06:29:02 PM
Add me to the list of folks who would want something like this. I've looked at the Suresine brand, and I'm just not quite comfy with 300 watts.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 11, 2012, 05:22:02 AM
500W Continuous with 1KW surge for 5 minutes.... 8)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 11, 2012, 07:40:12 PM
i have no problem being outvoted on the 500w, but the dilemma of the battery voltage still remains as with many inverters being stacked one would want the higher voltage. if just one or 2 500w inverters then 12v is certainly fine.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 11, 2012, 08:57:43 PM
Quote from: niel on December 11, 2012, 07:40:12 PM
i have no problem being outvoted on the 500w, but the dilemma of the battery voltage still remains as with many inverters being stacked one would want the higher voltage. if just one or 2 500w inverters then 12v is certainly fine.

This is the "New Product Ideas and Discussion" thread so it's not about being outvoted Niel. It's VERY rare for any company to actually listen let alone consider possible product ideas AND input from a super small fraction of it's market.  :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on December 12, 2012, 12:28:06 AM
Like VTmaps and Onan et al I am waiting for a small 24V 500W+- inverter to run all my small loads and leave the Big one in 'sleep mode' rather than burn up lots of Watts to run a few lights etc.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 12, 2012, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: onanparts on December 11, 2012, 08:57:43 PM
Quote from: niel on December 11, 2012, 07:40:12 PM
i have no problem being outvoted on the 500w, but the dilemma of the battery voltage still remains as with many inverters being stacked one would want the higher voltage. if just one or 2 500w inverters then 12v is certainly fine.

This is the "New Product Ideas and Discussion" thread so it's not about being outvoted Niel. It's VERY rare for any company to actually listen let alone consider possible product ideas AND input from a super small fraction of it's market.  :)

thanks as i'm very aware of what the topic and thread category is. i guess i'm not allowed to give my 2 centavos worth on the products and then concede to a majority opinion? i wasn't all that worried about it either ftr as it was just talk, wasn't it?

i'll shut up.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on December 12, 2012, 04:22:25 PM
Quote from: niel on December 12, 2012, 09:14:36 AM
Quote from: onanparts on December 11, 2012, 08:57:43 PM
Quote from: niel on December 11, 2012, 07:40:12 PM
i have no problem being outvoted on the 500w, but the dilemma of the battery voltage still remains as with many inverters being stacked one would want the higher voltage. if just one or 2 500w inverters then 12v is certainly fine.

This is the "New Product Ideas and Discussion" thread so it's not about being outvoted Niel. It's VERY rare for any company to actually listen let alone consider possible product ideas AND input from a super small fraction of it's market.  :)

thanks as i'm very aware of what the topic and thread category is. i guess i'm not allowed to give my 2 centavos worth on the products and then concede to a majority opinion? i wasn't all that worried about it either ftr as it was just talk, wasn't it?

i'll shut up.



Niel, opinionate away as much as you like !  We listen to everybody !

boB

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on December 12, 2012, 04:55:42 PM
I just think of it as tossing stuff at the wall and see what sticks. No good or bad just ideas. Ideas are funny, one idea can lead to another completely unrelated idea like hitting a rack of balls on the pool table.

Just my personal opinion. Think of post it notes. Almost every business uses them and they originated from a failed adhesive.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: jim k. on December 12, 2012, 07:37:45 PM
rather trying to invent a new wheel why not say take my 3000  watt inverter and re-engineer it so that it would come on in phases as demand increases ,I have to keep that thing turned up because lighting is to small of a load to turn it on, maybe there is one like that and I didn't spend enough in the first place. I guess that would be a new wheel when you got done.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 18, 2012, 06:05:02 PM
Must have an optional electric cooled pony harness with fuel injection. ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 20, 2012, 01:05:29 AM
this is just thinking out loud for the interest of fine tuning an inverter product for the crew at midnite. i would say the input voltage is a dilemma being you can't have multi voltage unless you come out with multiple models with their own fixed input voltages. i can definitely see a 48v model as there aren't any low cost quality inverters in this area and added modules would allow expansion. (reason for high cost being they are almost all 2kw and up) the 12v crowd is the most common and you'd have need to keep the market open to them and of course 24v is the middle of the road compromise between the 2.

for 12v i can't see going beyond 3 500w-600w modules due to wire gauge sizing and breaker sizing. having the extra costs to bring it up to 1500-1800w constant on a 12v system may not make much economical sense as one may pay way far more than just buying an inverter at the rating they really wanted in the first place. too many 12v inverters out there, but who knows, modules here may still fly. you do know there will be many wanting to parallel up in the ridiculously high wattage areas like 4kw or even 8kw from 12v. this isn't smart or practical and would present an avalanche of trouble for you expanding too high as end users will wonder why your inverters aren't working.

with the 48v end of things you could add many modules to reach better power levels, but the power incrementation could wind up too small and too costly to reach the full abilities this input voltage area can offer. i can't see going 8 500w modules to get a 4kw inverter system going. i can say that a quality 500w-600w 48v inverter would be rare item.

maybe the answer might be small to begin with like 500w-600w for the 1st or primary inverter and then add modules that have even higher wattage like 750w or 1kw?

now here's an idea on the input voltage variable, can they be series stacked to come up with other input voltages? ie., 2 12 models in series with maybe some coordinating electronics if needed to arrive at a 24v input inverter capable of double the wattage of a single 12v inverter? in other words input voltage seriesed and output voltage synced and paralleled. this would directly allow expansion to other voltages, but leaves out the paralleling of modules for more initial power.

another aspect extra modules presents is the aspect of fusing and circuit breakers. do you add 1 to each module output or keep changing 1 master fuse or breaker size?

i can appreciate the tasks before you in trying to innovate something for marketing and this may prove more difficult and time consuming than may suit you or your many devote customers. as such, it may be good to just come out with good inverters without the innovative frills in the meantime?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on December 20, 2012, 01:58:16 PM
Lots of interesting thoughts and ideas in this thread. I am sure my wish list includes  unrealistic wishes with technology as I know it today. But, if you think about it, in the design phase you are taking a wing shot so you have to lead your target a bit  and have to design your product to intersect the future course of technology and not what is available here and now.

Just look at computers and other microprocessor based devices. Computer speed increased exponentially and they literally ran into the speed of an electron wall on how fast a processor could run so they had to develop parallel processing and massive RAM support to keep getting more horsepower into the machine.

It is no trivial task to see and intersect that timeline on technology and even tougher to have the faith to pursue the unknown. But, that is how we humans push things forward from not believing you will sail off the edge of the earth and going into the unknown. I wish I had a look into what is in store for technology in 10 years. Electricity as we know it may not even be used in "electronic" devices in a decade or so. They recently discovered a way to control photons similar to semiconductors and electrons. It didn't get a lot of press but it is a major breakthrough in technology, I think. Other things like crystal lattice storage of data are on the horizon

It all starts with tossing ideas on the wall and seeing what sticks.

Great stuff, sorry for the rant.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on December 30, 2012, 03:21:38 PM
For some strange reason,

I keep thinking of Bob Carver's Amplifier.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on December 30, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
Quote from: cpm on December 30, 2012, 03:21:38 PM
For some strange reason,

I keep thinking of Bob Carver's Amplifier.


Which one ??
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on December 31, 2012, 09:23:50 AM
Quote from: boB on December 30, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
Quote from: cpm on December 30, 2012, 03:21:38 PM
For some strange reason,

I keep thinking of Bob Carver's Amplifier.


Which one ??

The Cube. (m400)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on December 31, 2012, 07:12:13 PM
Quote from: cpm on December 31, 2012, 09:23:50 AM
Quote from: boB on December 30, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
Quote from: cpm on December 30, 2012, 03:21:38 PM
For some strange reason,

I keep thinking of Bob Carver's Amplifier.


Which one ??

The Cube. (m400)


I traded a van for an M400 a long time ago.

Had to fix it first after we broke the amplifier when we were evaluating it.

boB


Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cdog on February 11, 2013, 11:34:44 AM
Because this is just a suggestion thread....is there anyone other than me that would have a use for....
4kw
120/240
That's it....no charger...no options....no talking to the mother ship....no gen start etc etc...
Just a plane Jane one button bare bones box that will last forever and not cost a fortune...
Am I alone here?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on February 12, 2013, 02:57:58 AM
cdog,
from my way of thinking, they do exist, also with thoughts of an m&m commercial coming to mind. take a look at the magnum ms4024pae or the magnum ms4448pae. although they have a built in charger, you should know it really didn't add too much in costs to put in it as it pretty much is the inverter in reverse. the other bells and whistles usually come with the remotes or add ons which are an extra expense not included with the inverter itself.

my situation is one that i don't need 4kw right now and have a magnum mms1012 which is a 12v 1kw inverter. i have about 400ah in agm batteries paralleled  to run it and really wished i had more battery capacity and wanted to put more in, but i had to restrain myself as 4 12v batteries in parallel is pushing things a bit. now if these were for use in a 1kw-1.5kw inverter with a 24v or 48v input, this gives better flexibility with the batteries and anybody who runs anywhere near the capacity of the inverter i have for long knows it will suck it out of the battery bank. having a full days worth of battery capacity is not realistic in my case, but i am stuck in not being able to expand too much with the batteries i have without scrapping the whole thing and getting bigger batteries and all else that encompass that change. i figure that with the type i have i could've gone with 2 more batteries to fit inside the battery box, but 6 in parallel is asking for trouble. at 24v this would be feasible as then i'd have 3 strings of 2 in series and i'd have still upped my capacity by 50%. now i can't expand due to the batteries being at about 2yrs old now and i don't want to mix old and new batteries.

my point is that at the time an inverter at 24v, or better yet 48v for a single series string of batteries, when i was first going with this at 1kw it would've worked better for more as i could've expanded upon my battery bank much more readily. the series arranged batteries are best over the paralleled and would accommodate the battery capacity expansion very well with a minimum of paralleling. in my case i really wouldn't have much need beyond around 1kw very often, but in my case it is trying to go for any real autonomy, which isn't as easy to come by as you think with a modest budget ability. with midnite's proposed modular design the inverter capacity would've been possible in addition to a battery capacity expansion as i need for our loads can increase or sometimes one miscalculates their loads as peaks can sometimes be worse than figured upon. that would save from buying another whole inverter and having that one that's now under rated just laying around.

babbling here, but i wanted to give a perspective that lower wattage higher voltage inverters are a good thing as there is a real need there and expandability on inverter capacity could save on total replacement costs involved with a sudden need to draw more power than the inverter is initially capable of down the road.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cdog on March 21, 2013, 07:37:15 PM
Thanks...
Is something like the exeltech rack system with the individual modules along the lines of what this may turn out to be?
Or stand alone inveters that could be stacked later?
Sorry for the newbie questions!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on March 22, 2013, 09:04:41 AM
that i can't answer as i'm not a midnite employee and i don't know if it would be fair to ask them to answer that question as it is still in development.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 22, 2013, 06:48:24 PM
Quote from: cdog on February 11, 2013, 11:34:44 AM
Because this is just a suggestion thread....is there anyone other than me that would have a use for....
4kw
120/240
That's it....no charger...no options....no talking to the mother ship....no gen start etc etc...
Just a plane Jane one button bare bones box that will last forever and not cost a fortune...
Am I alone here?

No you are not alone.  I also want the plain Jane having no interest whatsoever in battery charger, or any 'features' or stacking capability . Just clean sine wave, goes forever and is a 'black box'.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on March 22, 2013, 08:21:13 PM
Quote from: dgd on March 22, 2013, 06:48:24 PM
Quote from: cdog on February 11, 2013, 11:34:44 AM
Because this is just a suggestion thread....is there anyone other than me that would have a use for....
4kw
120/240
That's it....no charger...no options....no talking to the mother ship....no gen start etc etc...
Just a plane Jane one button bare bones box that will last forever and not cost a fortune...
Am I alone here?

No you are not alone.  I also want the plain Jane having no interest whatsoever in battery charger, or any 'features' or stacking capability . Just clean sine wave, goes forever and is a 'black box'.

dgd

Works for me,

Shall I make a motion?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 23, 2013, 03:35:32 AM
Motion good but I'm not sure anyone would take notice  :-\

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on March 23, 2013, 07:15:56 AM
Oh trust me Robin and crew are keeping an eye on this as well as other input we get. This will for sure help them mold the product in the best possible way to satisfy the most people.

Ryan
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cdog on March 23, 2013, 03:38:57 PM
That's great news.....a "lite" version perhaps?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 23, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
good idea to have the capability built in but it's not necessary to use it
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 23, 2013, 05:55:18 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on March 23, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
good idea to have the capability built in but it's not necessary to use it

good except that you are still paying for something you don't want.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 23, 2013, 06:51:57 PM
I was thinking along the lines of the "Lite" where a part (MNGP) is not included yielding a lower selling price but can be added later to get the 'full meal deal', benefit is a lower entry cost, but more 'core' product is sold >>> lower production costs for both models :D.  Just  like cars, it is the added bling :o that really costs you dearly.. :'(

or like an I-phone, basic model but look at all 70,000 or ?? Apps not all of which are free.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 23, 2013, 07:17:50 PM
yes  makes sense..
I was thinking of a real basic almost featureless sine wave inverter, 120/240v 60Hz, 230v 50Hz.  4Kw 24v/48V DC in (so thats 4 different models?), on/off soft switch, leds for power,DC too low/high and not much else (LITE).  External add on options for any bells or whistles needed. Stackable, AC in, battery charger, bypass relays, gen start, fancy lcd displays, internet access etc.. in another model (FEATURED).
I'm not really a fan of 'modular' devices where additional features mean inserting additional bits. Often this capability adds significantly to the cost of the basic device.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 23, 2013, 07:37:11 PM
Its the Off  grid that is the problem...ever since you went OG you started getting those tickets,   obviously has nothing to do with having a RED sports car...http://ca.autoblog.com/2010/10/19/road-myths-do-red-cars-attract-more-tickets/

I haven't looked inside any of my inverters but is it possible to build them like PC motherboards? with lots of empty slots so we can add on features we want when we need it.  Seems like most RE goods have a 8 year or longer model-run-life, I know my venerable MX is still being sold
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 24, 2013, 02:44:03 AM
..yes true again.  Going OG was a goal for years, so was driving a 911 250K+, now if the Classic was  Red instead of just black (also white,cream,yellow green blue options)...  it would be faster too  :P

IMO an inverter with plugin slots for modules is just somethng else to work loose short out corrode go high resistance heat up  burn out and PO me. Give me monster copper conductors, massive soldered wires and connectors, wide pcb tracks with soldered on wire to beef them up and 5/16inch bolt down lugs and not a plugin module within 100metres of the inverter   ::)

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on March 24, 2013, 09:20:23 AM
i'm not following why some of you are so against the built in charger. it really isn't a big savings to eliminate it and those off grid can still have need to hook a generator up to add to the charge of the battery bank. you act like this will be a $200 thing to have it in the inverter. it really is the inverter. you are thinking of separate chargers and that would add that kind of cost in that case, but not this case as nearly all the same components are involved. maybe one of the guys at midnite can fine tune for you guys what the real bottom line difference would roughly be.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on March 24, 2013, 09:30:14 AM
In reality there is like 0 cost associated with making the inverter a charger as well. I guess there is some cost as there is another lug or 2 to hook the AC to. The reason most of the smaller less expensive inverters do not charge as well is mostly do to the fact they want to save time on writing code. So to have 2 identical inverters one that charges and one that doesn't would be the same cost.

What I do see though is a simple inverter that runs and works out of the box with no display or what not. If you want the advanced functions buy the remote?

Ryan
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on March 24, 2013, 09:37:36 AM
Quote from: niel on March 24, 2013, 09:20:23 AM
i'm not following why some of you are so against the built in charger. it really isn't a big savings to eliminate it and those off grid can still have need to hook a generator up to add to the charge of the battery bank. you act like this will be a $200 thing to have it in the inverter. it really is the inverter. you are thinking of separate chargers and that would add that kind of cost in that case, but not this case as nearly all the same components are involved. maybe one of the guys at midnite can fine tune for you guys what the real bottom line difference would roughly be.


Well, ,

I've had good luck with the morningstar sunsaver mppt charge controllers. Last I bought one it was just shy of $250, and it's very inexpensively made, and I'm unaware of any competitive product out there. I'd like to see something like this made by
a company I trust. I'd also like a small -as in 500w/1kw- inverter along the same lines.
No frills, just a brick with circuit protection.

One looks around at some of the, , ummm, ,, garbage, er, crap, ah, , stuff out there that gets sold under the guise of 'solar generator'. one could well imagine that there is a market for respectively low power PV stuff.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vern Faulkner on March 24, 2013, 10:27:59 AM
Reading along and pondering my future - my needs are all around a 24-volt battery pack, which can provide a robust amount of off-grid juice, really.

My ideal package? Charger (for those days when sun don't shine for days on end - see also "winter," something we Canadians seem to specialize in), sine wave output, hard-wire-able enough juice to power a vacuum cleaner - so 1,200 watts. A load-sensing option would be nice, too.

What would be even better? A two-part inverter/chargers.
Part 1: 300-500 watts load-sensing, hard-wire-able, pure-sine output
Part 2: user switchable 1+ kw pure-sine output

The low-energy, load-sensing 300-500w output would power things like AC LED lights, small occasional-use kitchen gadgets like blenders and hand-mixers, computers/laptop chargers, and even washing machines (mine draws 190 watts after the initial surge).

Big things like, well, the vacuum cleaner could be plugged into the inverter directly into the 1+ KW outlet, but that would be switched so that when done, it turns off, and stays idle - not drawing power.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on June 12, 2013, 01:06:15 AM
MidNite, any updates available on what is happening with an MN off grid power inverter?
I would be extremely happy if MN were just to start manufacturing the Trace 4548E, I could use a half dozen of them quite soon  :)

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on June 12, 2013, 01:48:08 AM
Quote from: dgd on June 12, 2013, 01:06:15 AM
MidNite, any updates available on what is happening with an MN off grid power inverter?
I would be extremely happy if MN were just to start manufacturing the Trace 4548E, I could use a half dozen of them quite soon  :)

dgd

No, but here's an 18 year old video we did at Trace Engineering that kinda shows how
it was to make them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW0gTVMZaD4

boB


Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: vtmaps on December 14, 2013, 05:02:57 AM
Now that the WhizBang Jr is shipping it's time to ask:  Will the forthcoming inverters be able to use WB Jr data to control charging?  If so, could the WB Jr connect to the inverter without a classic?

More broadly, how will generator charging integrate with solar charging?  (follow me?)

Let me give an example of what NOT to do.  The example is Outback's system: 

The Outback controller knows the battery current (through flexnet DC) and has a 'Global Amps' setting so that it will limit its output (during Bulk).  The Outback inverters do NOT regulate based on battery current and do NOT have a 'global amps' setting.

Therefore if I am running my generator (bulk charge) and the sun comes up, I may want to limit the overall current to the batteries.  With the Outback system, the controller will cut back on its output.  That is just the opposite of what should happen.   The generator charging should be scaled back and the solar charging maximized. 

--vtMaps
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: laszlo on December 21, 2013, 08:08:20 PM
Fun fun fun.  "Invert till it Hz"  haha. Like the part where the lady is trying to jack up the pellet -- do you all  remember how heavy these Trace's were? 

But this was dfferent technology which used  heavy tranformer(s) in the inverter, I think the newer designs are tranformerless. Still, a lot to be said about how clean the sine wave was  despite the fine "stepping".


Quote from: boB on June 12, 2013, 01:48:08 AM
Quote from: dgd on June 12, 2013, 01:06:15 AM
MidNite, any updates available on what is happening with an MN off grid power inverter?
I would be extremely happy if MN were just to start manufacturing the Trace 4548E, I could use a half dozen of them quite soon  :)

dgd

No, but here's an 18 year old video we did at Trace Engineering that kinda shows how
it was to make them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW0gTVMZaD4

boB
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: laszlo on December 21, 2013, 08:33:33 PM
Typically there is transfer switch also, so when the shore power kicks in, then the transfer switch takes all the loads and transfer them to the shore power, and remaining  part of the shore power to charge.

But I am not crazy about this transfer switch solution.

In wintertime I actually use one of my two inverters for charging from generator so there is a nice even load on the generator and no power blips.

Quote from: Halfcrazy on March 24, 2013, 09:30:14 AM
In reality there is like 0 cost associated with making the inverter a charger as well. I guess there is some cost as there is another lug or 2 to hook the AC to. The reason most of the smaller less expensive inverters do not charge as well is mostly do to the fact they want to save time on writing code. So to have 2 identical inverters one that charges and one that doesn't would be the same cost.

What I do see though is a simple inverter that runs and works out of the box with no display or what not. If you want the advanced functions buy the remote?

Ryan
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on January 05, 2014, 11:10:15 PM
Quote from: niel on March 24, 2013, 09:20:23 AM
i'm not following why some of you are so against the built in charger. it really isn't a big savings to eliminate it and those off grid can still have need to hook a generator up to add to the charge of the battery bank. you act like this will be a $200 thing to have it in the inverter. it really is the inverter. you are thinking of separate chargers and that would add that kind of cost in that case, but not this case as nearly all the same components are involved. maybe one of the guys at midnite can fine tune for you guys what the real bottom line difference would roughly be.

I guess, in my case anyway, it's because I just want a simple, easy to use in the field, (as in portable) true sine wave that just works.
PV(or whatever variable DC source)->charge controller(maybe, maybe not)->battery(ies)->inverter->JOY!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: DMJ72 on January 23, 2014, 04:56:04 AM
For the Caribbean market :

120/240v split phase @ 50/60hz switchable
Internal transfer Switch
High Surge capacity
48V

Basically if you guys could do something along the lines of the Conext SW, with Midnite's engineering expertise = A winner! :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: animatt on February 21, 2014, 07:21:18 PM
Well the context sw has a nice price point and some nice features, but idle powed consumption is horrible.  The big el tranformer i am sure does not help.  If going transformer route i would imagine a toroid transforming increasing efficiency and decreasing idle power consumption. Although as i understand it would need more filtering.

Any update from midnite on a future inverter?  Just came to the forum after a while of being away to check.

Matthew
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: zoneblue on February 22, 2014, 09:14:29 PM
Did you actually measure the new SW idle? The spec is huge almost 40W AFAIK
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: animatt on February 28, 2014, 11:33:53 PM
No.  Just from reading here and from wind and sun forum. Although i believe it was tbesame poster in.both cases.

Kind of makes sense they would a low budget system with some tradeoffs.  I think if idle power consumption was smaller it could eat in xw line sales.

I would definately want something like a sw in all specs except maybe 50% lower idle power consumption.  I would buy in a heart beat. Like I mentioned i believe it is possible with torodial transformers.

Matthew
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: cpm on July 20, 2014, 07:44:42 AM
Quote from: Robin on December 08, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
Nigel, Yes we are developing a series of 500 watt inverters. We do not plan on these being a product for your market though. That would be something much larger. We want to get the bugs out of the design at this lower power level. The 500 watt battery based inverter matches the other two inverters also under development that create a "guys toy". I'm not sure we have disclosed the whole project yet? The inverter will be stackable using a simple phone cable and it will have PFC charging and two inputs and grid tie and communications,
SNIP


Soo, that was almost 2 years ago.


What news?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on July 20, 2014, 11:52:29 AM
IIRC  in another thread, I believe Robin mentioned it is still in play but not at the top of the list so a while yet.  The turbine project had to get finished etc...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 08, 2014, 04:53:21 PM
there is an interesting discussion on NAWS about using a small inverter to 'fool' a larger one into thinking the smaller one was the Grid.  http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?24565-Paralleling-inverter-chargers-with-generator-quot-boost-quot-quot-support-quot-function

Post #5 is most interesting in that 'Coot talks about an inverter that could be 'modular' as we have talked about earlier.  Here is the key paragraph, to me:

It would theoretically be possible to build a modular inverter with a 'control unit' that can operate and sync multiple 'power units' much the way stacking inverters do, only without the redundant control units. You could then have flexible sizing of, say, 500 Watt increments and/or the ability to turn on only as much power capacity as needed. But would it be practical? The money spent on the more complex design could simply be used to up the system power capacity to handle greater losses from a conventional inverter.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 09, 2014, 02:36:45 AM
It was fun reading through all the posts here. A lot has changed since we started the inverter project. Let's suffice it to say that most of the questions and suggestions will turn out to be pretty much what is wanted. There will be a bunch of inverters, not just one.
We still have a ways to go, but you can expect more real news about the project in a few months. The MidNite Inverter (s) are not going to be  like anything on the market. We are a long ways off from having a shippable product, so hang in there. Perhaps we can start a beta test list for those of you who might want in on the fun, but give us some time before doing that.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on September 09, 2014, 01:46:54 PM
Very interesting thread on little inverter/big inverter.

As boB pointed out to me there is a model which has a smaller inverter inside. ( We were discussing the Dynamote Brutus inverter)


This from the manual for the Vanner Tru-Sine 4500

<quote>
The inverter consists of two sine wave inverters built in one unit. A "low power" high efficiency 70 watt inverter supplies power for the small loads. The "high power" 4500 watt main inverter supplies power when AC loads over 70 watts are present.
<end quote>

This inverter is apparently the evolution of the Brutus Tru sine as Vanner bought Dynamote.

interesting concept

td
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: zoneblue on September 10, 2014, 03:54:06 AM
Well hopefully the takeaway for midnite here, is,  WE WANT LOW TARE. Hint. Hint. Why make solar energy and just thow it away. And we arent talking about sleep mode, which is next to useless, either.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Surfpath on September 14, 2014, 10:48:04 PM
I am glad to see that the Midnite inverter discussion has resurfaced.

With the success of the wee Kid it's high time that Midnite enter the 'wee' inverter world.

I vote with Nigel about the availability of a 50hz model.  Here's why:  Like many small house/cabin offgridders around the world, I have moderate to low consumption (3kwh/d), but a hulking hungry OB inverter that sits there turned on all day only for my fridge to 'surge.'   >:(

Given my other appliances, if it wasn't for that fridge surge I'd be fine with a much smaller inverter (OK, I'll run the 800w washing machine on a new Honda briefcase generator - that I need anyway).  But wait.....

Inverter fridges are now very much available on the international 230V market (Animatt, another midnite user who posted on this same thread earlier, is running his inverter fridge quite easily using a MS Sursine PS300):  See link FMI:

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?24550-suresine-running-unmodified-refridgerator%28inverter%29

.....so

Us 50hz 230v folks are primed for these smaller, less power-hungry, pure sine inverters (a little bit bigger than the MS 300 - all due respect Morningstar - and in the 24/48v battery bank range that the MS300 doesn't account for).


Can I be a beta tester please?? :D
-Surfpath 

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on September 15, 2014, 02:48:31 AM
Quote from: Surfpath on September 14, 2014, 10:48:04 PM
I am glad to see that the Midnite inverter discussion has resurfaced.

With the success of the wee Kid it's high time that Midnite enter the 'wee' inverter world.
.....so
...
Us 50hz 230v folks are primed for these smaller, less power-hungry, pure sine inverters (a little bit bigger than the MS 300 - all due respect Morningstar - and in the 24/48v battery bank range that the MS300 doesn't account for).[/b]

High time maybe but it would seem unlikely this year or even next, no info on possible MN inverters is available and we are only told MN are listening to suggestions.
In any case there is a plethora of small to 1KW pure sine wave inverters already available. Leaving the chinese multiple inverter offerings aside there are many europeane and Australasian high quality sine wave inverters (230v 50Hz) with extremely low tare and high conversion efficiency, available right now.
My personal favourite is the Oz SEA Bolero 1.1Kw 24v (1kw 12v) pure sine, well built and just keeps working flawlessly  ;)

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 28, 2014, 09:40:38 PM
dgd is correct. There are plenty of inverters out there now.
That doesn't mean that they won't be obsoleted by something more advanced someday.
The Dynamote Brutus with the small co-inverter was done due to the horrible high tare loss of the regular Brutus. It was a compromise design for sure. When we got tare losses down to 16 watts on the Trace 4000W SW inverter, the co-sine inverter became obsolete. You all are kinda sorta on the right track though talking about methods to achieve low idle. that is just one of many things that would be desirable in a new inverter Tee, Hee.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on April 27, 2015, 10:08:28 PM
Any update Robin?

its been nearly 8 months.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on June 12, 2015, 07:50:16 PM
Now this is a real  inverter transformer, a very interesting construction series of postings on otherpower from Oztules.
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148717.0.html (http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148717.0.html)

I have two of these $99 Inspire grid tie inverters that were sold cheap on EBay when the company went belly up. Another project in the planning  :)

This is something I would expect to see in the new Midnite power inverter,6Kw, 8kw surge BIG Toroid with a few (metric) Kgs of solid copper. Given MNs expertise in winding those inductors for the Classic then I expect this would be a 'stroll in the park'
Can we expect to see something of the MN inverter more sooner rather than later?  or should I start unwinding all that copper and tape?

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on June 13, 2015, 01:24:42 AM
Quote from: dgd on June 12, 2015, 07:50:16 PM
Now this is a real  inverter transformer, a very interesting construction series of postings on otherpower from Oztules.
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148717.0.html (http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148717.0.html)

I have two of these $99 Inspire grid tie inverters that were sold cheap on EBay when the company went belly up. Another project in the planning  :)

This is something I would expect to see in the new Midnite power inverter,6Kw, 8kw surge BIG Toroid with a few (metric) Kgs of solid copper. Given MNs expertise in winding those inductors for the Classic then I expect this would be a 'stroll in the park'
Can we expect to see something of the MN inverter more sooner rather than later?  or should I start unwinding all that copper and tape?   dgd   
Well, that's the slick way to do it.   Thanks for the insight
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: SolaRevolution on June 19, 2015, 11:44:14 AM
2 or 3 cents here:

I'd like to see a small inverter sized with consideration of a whole system, including matching to a CC and a convenient PV array,  BOS equipment, available generators, common battery sizes... the whole works.

The KID CC  is an awesomely capable little whelp.  Matching it with a fairly "dumb" and little inverter charger can make a very nice little system.  The trouble is most of "dumb little" inverter chargers are 12 volt and just a touch too small for many applications. At 12 volts, the KID is limited to <500 Watts of PV. :(

Now, if you guys made a small (same physical size as the MMS) 24volt, 1800w, 120vac inverter/charger, match it with a KID:

*The system would have all of the KID functions.
*With up to 1kw PV,  3 large 60cell mods would fit perfectly in a 90volt single string.
*It could use the MNEDC breakers for the entire system. (GFCIs too.)
*Perfect fit for (4) L-16s or similar size battery but could also fit smaller AGMs etc...
*Perfect fit for a 2-3kW generator. (Very common size)
*Easily upgradable by adding a second KID.
*AC in and out on 20 amp circuits.

With the capabilities of the KID or the Classics, there is little need to make the inverter very complicated. You could keep it small.  If you wanted to keep it really simple, a few dip switches or an optional display (removed after programming) would be all you need, or even make it so the KID could be a full function controller... then add the dream of making a smartphone comm/control app via bluetooth or wifi.... :o


This would be able to run anything you'd need for a cabin or small home and be emergency power for most domestic needs. It could run any Grundfos SQF pump, most pressure pumps, washers and dryers, almost any fridge...

For now I'll just have to match the KID with the MMS1012 or the ...oh nevermind.

Longing for more Midnite magic. ;)

Alex A.





Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: zoneblue on June 21, 2015, 03:44:05 PM
Also a fan of smaller inverters. You can do an awful lot with 1kW. Theres 1kW kettles on ebay, 1kW irons if you hunt around. Inverter fridges, washing machines run on 1kW, and so on.

Problem is the small inverters tend to punch a hefty price tag. For brand name in 24V sub 1kW try Victron, or Steca. Powermaster also make some.

Ditto on the dipswtiches. Inverters are dumb in my world too, dont need fancy display/controls. WbJr can tell you most of what you need to know about what the inverter is doing.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boomadge on June 30, 2015, 10:52:24 PM
Quote from: SolaRevolution on June 19, 2015, 11:44:14 AM
2 or 3 cents here:

I'd like to see a small inverter sized with consideration of a whole system, including matching to a CC and a convenient PV array,  BOS equipment, available generators, common battery sizes... the whole works.

The KID CC  is an awesomely capable little whelp.  Matching it with a fairly "dumb" and little inverter charger can make a very nice little system.  The trouble is most of "dumb little" inverter chargers are 12 volt and just a touch too small for many applications. At 12 volts, the KID is limited to <500 Watts of PV. :(

Now, if you guys made a small (same physical size as the MMS) 24volt, 1800w, 120vac inverter/charger, match it with a KID:

*The system would have all of the KID functions.
*With up to 1kw PV,  3 large 60cell mods would fit perfectly in a 90volt single string.
*It could use the MNEDC breakers for the entire system. (GFCIs too.)
*Perfect fit for (4) L-16s or similar size battery but could also fit smaller AGMs etc...
*Perfect fit for a 2-3kW generator. (Very common size)
*Easily upgradable by adding a second KID.
*AC in and out on 20 amp circuits.

With the capabilities of the KID or the Classics, there is little need to make the inverter very complicated. You could keep it small.  If you wanted to keep it really simple, a few dip switches or an optional display (removed after programming) would be all you need, or even make it so the KID could be a full function controller... then add the dream of making a smartphone comm/control app via bluetooth or wifi.... :o


This would be able to run anything you'd need for a cabin or small home and be emergency power for most domestic needs. It could run any Grundfos SQF pump, most pressure pumps, washers and dryers, almost any fridge...

For now I'll just have to match the KID with the MMS1012 or the ...oh nevermind.

Longing for more Midnite magic. ;)

Alex A.

I have been looking for such a gem for the cabin, I don't need 2000W plus constant (nor would I use it)but would like more than 1500.. And 21v-30v +/- .4 not adjustable for 24V invertor's under 2000W is just ridiculous IMO.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on October 19, 2015, 06:41:14 AM
i've been debating whether to post again or not as i do need another inverter to replace my mms1012 and i'm still saving toward a new inverter. after 2 failures with faulting i don't consider these as available options and would like a good inverter, aka midnite magic. so without the midnite magic research gave me the outback gfx 1424 as a near similar inverter. 2 problems here as 1 this is not ul approved in the u s and 2 going to an approved inverter means going >$1600 with much higher wattages than necessary. i use the inverter as a backups as well as optionally for off grid in the 1kva area, but the sell back would be a nice option just as the 1424 and other outbacks can do. yes, i want to up the battery voltage as 12v gives a very limited time of operation with most wattage ratings seen on inverters. i don't know if you guys will come out with an inverter to suit, but in spite of the rhetoric of it's out there already, i contend that it really isn't out there as much as you believe or we wouldn't be asking for something from midnite. we respect the quality from midnite and recognizing that the outbacks' very existence is due to the gudgels. something of quality from the u s competing with others that may be out there is a plus for the end users. maybe we should have your feedback on what you want to present to the public besides something different as how different can an inverter be? make it quality, u s made, and competitively priced. start somewhere even if it is simple off grid inverters of various voltages and wattages and go from there afterward. i would prefer not having to save this much just to replace an mms1012. note here that i also would need to replace the door on my e panel to match the new inverter and the outback would need the extra electronics aka the mate for my agm battery settings adding more costs yet. is there an answer or do i need to still go with overkill?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: zoneblue on October 20, 2015, 03:35:17 PM
Thanks for keeping this thread alive Neil. Rereading it i noticed this:

Quote from: Robin on September 28, 2014, 09:40:38 PM
When we got tare losses down to 16 watts on the Trace 4000W SW inverter, the co-sine inverter became obsolete. You all are kinda sorta on the right track though talking about methods to achieve low idle.

So what happened after that? Modern inverter tare seems to be growing if anything. VFX3024E datasheet says ~20W, i clocked it the other day pulling nearer 26W. Schneider stuff pulling over 40W etc.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 13, 2015, 03:10:01 PM
My Oztules inverter project reached a major milestone yesterday as I fired it up for the first time and closely monitored the power jack boards and especially the Fets. And it all went much better than I expected, nothing caught fire and no magic smoke escaped from anywhere. The BIG toroid just hummed rather unimpressively, the smaller toroid as an output choke made more humming. I was too chicken to load it up over 6Kw (it uses 12Kw boards, output is 230vAC at 50Hz) but it let the 4Kw oven run to reheat my Hell Pizza large Gluttony, yummy!
Its all spread over my workbench (the inverter components not the pizza) so next stage is to get it all boxed up and sort out a simple arduino CPU to monitor everything (mostly temps)
I realize its probably wishful thinking but I sorta think that it would be a cakewalk for Midnite to manufacture this inverter (and its 110V version etc) if only any aversion to using Chinese electronics could be overcome and a deal done with PowerJack.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on November 13, 2015, 04:46:06 PM
Congratulations,  David,

Impressive project.  Know that if it were mine every single part would be smokin' !

Have fun with.    Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: australsolarier on November 13, 2015, 05:05:39 PM
dgd

have you ever tried to deal with chinese?

the slightest suggestion or criticism and they clam up, because of their losing face thing.
they will just ignore you if they think you want advice or something.

this is one of the reasons i bought two midnite classics. the blokes making and designing them are actually approachable and when something goes wrong they stand to it and undertake to correct it.

have a look at this and they are taiwanese:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4E9xbTqH8

there are some more videos about it.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 13, 2015, 06:12:02 PM
Thanks Vic. This inverter project sure was interesting.
My fingers are still sometimes sore from all of the copper wire unwinding and efforts to straighten it to get the kinks out.
But the all up cost was low, two AU$99 inspire solar GTIs, USD90 Powerjack 12Kw power board and USD45 Powerjack control board, NZ100 for assorted 35mm/50mm cable, fibreglass resin, tape etc..

Australsolarier
you are correct but this was lowish cost component purchase needing zero support, I bought two sets just to have spares.
I would need to be pretty desperate to buy more complex electronic devices such as complete inverter or charge controller since I know support is about non existant.
Just had a Fangpusun FM60 (Outback FM60 clone) to play with and in the chenglish docs it redirects to OB forum for support  ???

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: australsolarier on November 13, 2015, 06:50:15 PM
dgd

i understand your project. i meant it in relation with midnite solar teaming up with PJ to make an inverter. the chinese are also in the habit of changing things without informing the overseas manufacturer. (i suppose they do not know what some of the parts are for, like a small capacitor for interference suppression)

how did that fm60 clone go?  just wondering.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 13, 2015, 07:34:47 PM
Aus,
I was suggesting an MN/Powerjack liason as it would hopefully get an MN grunt inverter available sooner rather than way-in-the-future later timescale. I also thought that with the proven inverter design expertise extant in MN would mean improved  replacement Powerjack control boards would soon appear.
But as I said before its wishful thinking.  Won't happen   :(

The Fanpusun FM60 is AFAIK a 100% OB clone with just the new name on the front casting. Didn't do much with it but along with my borrowed (from Able Solar in NZ) MX60 I am using it to get a server connected to the mate port.
It looks like I will be inheriting a Fangpusun FM80 after I complete a Classic150/arduino web server upgrade for a new customer site. I also ended up with an MS MPPT30  the same way  ;D

Not sure what I will do with it as I only supply MN controllers

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 13, 2015, 08:26:43 PM
Quote from: dgd on November 13, 2015, 07:34:47 PM
The Fanpusun FM60 is AFAIK a 100% OB clone with just the new name on the front casting.
dgd

How does that saying go.... imitation is the best form of flattery???  >:(
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 13, 2015, 10:52:52 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on November 13, 2015, 08:26:43 PM

How does that saying go.... imitation is the best form of flattery???  >:(

I think somewhere someone said the Wenzhou Xihe Electric Co Ltd (China) was contracted by OB to manufacture the FM controllers. Perhaps the arrangement  is finished, or not, and now they decided to use the OB specs to make their own version of the FM series since they probably had everything they needed.
Seems they also do the same with other manufacturers' controllers.
I hope they don't produce a Classic or Kid clone

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on December 27, 2015, 07:27:06 AM
I see dgd has posted here..... Hi dgd.

I like Midnite products and they work well for me, and infact the charging regime is so good I am using it with my OzInverter when its back charging to my batteries, well that's the plan. see....... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1111.0.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1 (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php/topic,1111.0.html?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1)

How is the Midnite Inverter coming along?

I saw on this forum a comment that said the SMA Sunny Island was doing everything and why would Midinte make something similar?

However, I have had a Sunny Island 6 for a year from New, and finally its going back to SMA after Trading Standards of the EEC, have got involved with Engineers reports and the Like, I am just getting my $3000 back.

Why, because of 2 main reasons,......
Firstly to get it to function for AC coupling and backcharging, (AC coupling is where the Inverter creates a Mini ac Grid and you connect GTI's, Grid Tied Inverters, PV installations etc into the created Mini Grid), and DC coupling where DC controllers are connected directly connected/feeding the batteries, SMA now specifies that you MUST use only SMA equipment and interfaces. But this is not in their published specifications.

SMA sunny Island use the HZ frequency increase to back off the GTI's when backcharging through the Inverter to the batteries. Without the extra SMA connected DC charging interfaces/controllers, the Sunny Island goes nuts and bangs up the HZ to stupid levels so domestic appliances fail.

Again No mention of this absurd HZ increase level in the SMA Published technical specifications.

Secondly, it is now believed either SMA have written some sloppy software around the Sunny Island Charging regime or that SMA have deliberately written software that deliberately sends the Inverters Frequency high if the DC coupling device/controllers are not SMA. ?

I trust this personal information from me is helpful with your new Inverter design.

All In all, I have had a most horrible experience with SMA Germany.
But on the Positive side when SMA just started ignoring me, I made my Own 'OzInverter' for a material cost of about $800.



 

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on December 27, 2015, 07:58:07 AM
My OzInverter.

6kW to 15kW, 48vdc to 230vac, Pure Sine Wave 50HZ. AC Couples to connected GTI's about 8kW and backcharges, we use the slight voltage rise when the batteries are full to bang off the GTI's. DC couples with out any issues if DC controllers are independently charging the batteries.

Concept from 'Oztules' John, Flinders Island Austraila. We discussed the design and build here....

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148717.0.html
and.......
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,148827.0.html

I am the apprentice......
This all came about because of the Failure of the Sunny Island to do what it is supposed to.

The heart of the machine is the Toroid. Its a double stacker laminated core at about 240mm OD, 100mm centre hole and 140mm high.
118 turns of secondary at 1.8mm diameter 4 off/4 in hand. Importantly each of the 4 secondary windings is epoxied before the mylar tape goes on each time. Primary is 50mm/2 cable 14 turns through the centre hole.

Normal commercial toroid winding machines struggle with the high core, so winding by hand is the only way, but still feasible. The beauty of this toroid is cooling and no noise. Add a choke of 3 turns on the primary and the idle use is down at 40w.

Control board, here we are using Chinese PowerJack, low cost, but poor QC, but robust and hard working. There are now several other boards available at very low cost and they are being looked into.

Power board, again PowerJack, low cost, but again poor QC, but very robust and the design is hard to beat.
Again its possible to put a Power board together, but the Chinese cost at present can not be argued about.

Here is a few picks of mine......
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on December 27, 2015, 08:07:42 AM
My OzInerter weighs about 50Kgs that's about 110 lbs.....

Cooling is very important, so forced cooling ducting fans are used, here I am using 5off. After only 30 minutes running at 4.5kW my OzInverter PCB and toroid was at 42c degrees. We are using a soft ramping up depending on temp circuit for fan control.

I trust my input helps? and you make a World beating Inverter.

Inside my OzInverter, The control meters etc are a mess and I await a more simple and compact arrangement......



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on December 28, 2015, 04:46:04 AM
Hi Clockman,

I enjoyed your posts on Otherpower with detailed inverter constuction steps and Oztules excellent advise and directions.
That encouraged me to build an Oz inverter since I already had several GTIs with the big toroids.
Those posts were excellent. I used your idea of three parallel smaller cables from the 50mm at toroid to power fet board.

I just got it all wired and tested recently but its still all spread over my workbench. I want to use the two Inspire Solar cases bolted together, boards in one and toroid in other. Problem is front panels overlap original case so won't fit. A new front panel needs fabricated.

However, my efforts now are to get an arduino with 4 line LCD and small KB on front panel. Sensors for everything, I have 6 temp sensors, DC current/voltage, AC voltage, current and Hz. For DC current I am using a 500A.50mv shunt and a WBjr which also has a temperature sensor included.

I really want to get some remote reporting done using a web page to report all the inverter data and maybe include inverter on/off using small ssrs to toggle the control board. Web page similar to the one I posted here in Arduino section, for monitoring the Classic.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 30, 2015, 02:22:58 AM
I have been reading a little bit on the more recent posts here. MidNite has not and will not use a Chinese manufacturing firm to build our electronics. That didn't work out so well for the OutBack guys. They never should have done what they did.
All the talk about the MidNite inverter is well heeded. We have ten engineers working on the battery based inverter and two other engineers working on two different wind turbine grid tie inverters.
I can't talk about them much, but will see if this forum will allow me to upload a sneek peek of one of them.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on December 30, 2015, 04:01:26 AM
Cheers dgd,

Yes those 50mm/2 cables from the toroid to the power board heatsinks, even though they are tri-rated, (very flexible), doing the calcs and my general experience, they are just to heavy for one direct connection to a 3mm thick alli heatsink, yikes 200 -300amp, yep its better split into 3.
Also that large PCB board has only 6 attachment fixings, but oztules said it should do?

That big toroid really pulls, so watch out on initial battery connection!.........

Have fun, any pics?.......
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on December 30, 2015, 04:39:45 AM
Hi Robin,

Good to here about the Midnite Inverter coming along, yes, I loved your tantalizingly small brief glimpse of the New......

Wind turbine Grid Tie Inverter, good to here. 
As I understand it, the big manufacture that was doing the WB has pulled out of that Wind GTI area. With the way they could not understand the need for keeping turbine loaded, or dumping excess, with my system, I am not surprised.

The awkward hassle with my OzInverter, is a more precise backcharging to the batteries regime.
At present I bang off the GTI's with a slight voltage rise or a relay that operates from the Midnite Classic when it goes to float.

I would be interested to see how Midnite control the charging regime DC backflow.

The Chinese do what they do. One day, probably a generation away, they might get QC and honour confidentiality agreements.
But one thing they did do, was to help PV become a cost effective solution around the World for normal folk, so hats off to them for that....

If you do a Midnite 6kw Battery Inverter for under $3000, now you are talking............... :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on December 30, 2015, 05:12:20 AM
Hi Robin,

Thanks for that small peak. More?

Quote from: Robin on December 30, 2015, 02:22:58 AM
I have been reading a little bit on the more recent posts here. MidNite has not and will not use a Chinese manufacturing firm to build our electronics. That didn't work out so well for the OutBack guys. They never should have done what they did.

hence the rise of FANGPUSUN, FM controllers and associated network bits all at about 66% price of Outback branded stuff.
So is there really any difference in QC between China and India manufacturing?  High QC must be attainable in China, dont Apple, IBM etc get all their stuff made there?

Quote
All the talk about the MidNite inverter is well heeded. We have ten engineers working on the battery based inverter and two other engineers working on two different wind turbine grid tie inverters.

Battery based inverter range, any product availability time estimates?
I would be very happy with a Midnite version of the Trace 4548E inverter  :P

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on December 30, 2015, 02:27:58 PM
dgd      Please do let me know when you start a new topic somewhere, regards doing a LCD display, SD card, etc, with an arduino for the OzInverter.

You might have to hold my hand a bit, ...... as I will probably ask simplistic questions, well simplistic for you that is!.

Thanks

Here's a pic of my old BMS for 36 batteries, i now have 46, arduino, SD card, and display, would this be any good?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on December 31, 2015, 04:38:42 PM
Clockman,

I intend to post on Otherpower the Arduino mega based LCD display and web server for my Oz inverter.
Right now I'm sorting out the two Inspire GTI boxes, getting holes made for the fans and generally following the layout and fitting that Oztules has posted in Part 2. Have located a nice sheet of aluminium for front cover, seems almost a shame to punch holes in it for lcd displays and switches, leds etc, also trying to decide if the line filters recovered from Inspire can re-used (schaffner fn2030-10-06 and fn2090-10-06)

I was thinking of getting the Mega to handle the fan control but the fan control board looks the way to go at least initially.
With the Arduino boards I was looking at small DIN rail in lower box to left of toroid, maybe screened off but mounted so that the ethernet and the rs232 serial were through the side of the box. The DIN rail could also mount a small DC to DC converter 48v to 5v for power and any fuses.
The screw terminal proto board is so that wires from various sensors do not need soldered and its easier to change about input pins in use. I will also get the WBjr interface on the protoboard.

Anyway, I suppose this is all getting off topic in a Midnite forum, I should get this to Otherpower  ;D

dgd

The Arduino parts/specs (ex sensors) I will use are:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEGA2560-R3-Board-ATmega2560-16AU-CH340G-Free-USB-Cable-for-Arduino-/261901186104?hash=item3cfa86f438:g:zcQAAOSwkNZUqluP (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEGA2560-R3-Board-ATmega2560-16AU-CH340G-Free-USB-Cable-for-Arduino-/261901186104?hash=item3cfa86f438:g:zcQAAOSwkNZUqluP)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ethernet-Shield-WizNet-W5100-R3-2012-for-Arduino-UNO-Mega-2560-Duemilanove-PoE-/291547954847?hash=item43e19cbe9f:g:MI8AAOSwq7JUEX66 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ethernet-Shield-WizNet-W5100-R3-2012-for-Arduino-UNO-Mega-2560-Duemilanove-PoE-/291547954847?hash=item43e19cbe9f:g:MI8AAOSwq7JUEX66)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OE-MAX3232-RS232-Serial-Port-To-TTL-Converter-Module-DB9-Connector-With-Cable-/221850004544?hash=item33a74a6c40:g:bXoAAOSwT6pVyedu (http://www.ebay.com/itm/OE-MAX3232-RS232-Serial-Port-To-TTL-Converter-Module-DB9-Connector-With-Cable-/221850004544?hash=item33a74a6c40:g:bXoAAOSwT6pVyedu)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIN-Rail-Mount-Adapter-Prototype-PCB-Kit-For-Arduino-UNO-Mega-2560-etc-/201227678125?hash=item2eda1ab1ad:g:5JUAAOxyHIlTXQOa (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIN-Rail-Mount-Adapter-Prototype-PCB-Kit-For-Arduino-UNO-Mega-2560-etc-/201227678125?hash=item2eda1ab1ad:g:5JUAAOxyHIlTXQOa)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prototype-Screw-Shield-Board-Kit-For-Arduino-UNO-R3-0-1-Mini-Terminal-Block-/131686005367?hash=item1ea918fa77:g:UUMAAOxy~dNTHygV (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prototype-Screw-Shield-Board-Kit-For-Arduino-UNO-R3-0-1-Mini-Terminal-Block-/131686005367?hash=item1ea918fa77:g:UUMAAOxy~dNTHygV)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on January 01, 2016, 03:15:38 PM
Robin,

It's good to read your post that ten engineers are currently involved with inverter design.
I hope that you can get a human interface (HID) design software engineer involved in there somewhere, someone who can move upwards from the, seemingly, industry 1990s standard of a front panel LCD display with a few buttons for display data selection and limited configuration.
I'm thinking of the inverter using a simple processor to provide an Ethernet interface and make available a web based display. Doesn't need to be anything too complicated, just a page or two of running data info, exception conditions detected etc.
At least for the larger 3Kw+ inverter range.

Since MN has invested in the Modbus standard then maintaining a modus stack would also be nice for those wanting to develop a more sophisticated HID.
The only things I would ask the programmer doing this is to avoid encryption of any type in data Comms, don't get sucked into the  MyMidnite scheme of data protection and proprietary handshaking supposedly to protect MN investment when all it really does is deny owners of data the right to use it, see it and ensure there is no security issues from bad people trying to access user networks.

Please also implement a proper Ethernet stack, the solitary TCP connection to the Classic is probably, along with Ethernet connection unreliability, the single largest negative feature of the Classic charge controller.
It's taken 4 to 5 years to get the Ethernet connection issues sort of sorted out and still nothing has ever been done to sort out the single TCP connection limitation (not counting the unusable TCP connection reserved for MyMidnite).

Please, please, please do not even remotely consider a similar TCP setup limitation for the new range of inverters

Just all IMHO, no offence intended, FWIW

Dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: laszlo on January 07, 2016, 02:42:14 AM
Yes, there needs to be a more accessible interface, and I would recommend Macintosh style minimalism instead of  bells and whistles we have now,  but on security front, I welcome anyl security that I can get.

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on January 11, 2016, 06:13:20 PM
dgd, we have a couple of guys working on the networking part.  All of  your wishes will come true for this one.
Maybe or maybe not exactly as you would expect but, the hardware and code will be there.

As for Chinese production quality and, like you mentioned, the iPhone and Apple products that, in MHO
are very good, those guys have a LARGE production outfit doing their work which is top notch.  That is
because of the large quantities involved.  Not as easy for stuff like ours that isn't millions of quantities.

Even Xantrex had (has ?) their own facility in China that were VERY good at what they did.  Robin was at
that factory during the late 1990s when we were merged.  Wish we still had some of the video
that Robin took of that place.  Incredible.  I remember in one part of the video, there was one girl that
would peel off a sticker and hand it to another gal that would stick it on the Prosine inverter.

boB
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: zoneblue on January 12, 2016, 03:34:37 PM
So i guess you guys are keeping the specs under wraps until release? FWIW, i doubt that competitiors stand to gain anything from that, because, as you know, we'll buy midnite anyway ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Cniemand on January 12, 2016, 04:06:43 PM
An entire line of Midnite gizmos... That would be something. If you could network the Inverter/charger in with the Classic so you could use the same display to change the voltage set-points on the inverter.... I would love having that!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on January 13, 2016, 03:55:01 PM
Quote from: Cniemand on January 12, 2016, 04:06:43 PM
An entire line of Midnite gizmos... That would be something. If you could network the Inverter/charger in with the Classic so you could use the same display to change the voltage set-points on the inverter.... I would love having that!

:) :) :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: zoneblue on January 14, 2016, 07:07:45 PM
Well while we are on the subject, as well as low idle tare, a special request from me is for teh aux en/disable to have lower power consumption as well. The VFX uses several watts in "off" mode. Im sure that 6W is doing something but im blowed if i know what it is.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on January 15, 2016, 03:34:38 PM
Thanks for your reassuring comments boB.
Forgot to request that the range of MN inverters include one or more USB power sockets (5V at >=2A) and perhaps even a 12V DC power provision. Very useful to power miscellaneous non-AC devices near the inverter.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on January 15, 2016, 06:07:35 PM
I am glad that Zoneblue mentioned idle power. You just set the project back a bit. We had not taken care of idle power during times on non use. There are 10 different auxiliary power supplies on the EGO inverter. We will be shutting all but one down at night if there are no loads on. This is essentially off mode. We are also now going to redesign the aux power supply on the control module to use less power. I do not think we will be adding a USB jack on this 10,000 watt inverter. We will be doing that on the 1000W version though.
Here is another small peek.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on January 15, 2016, 07:42:50 PM
Obviously the count down is on...  this is Peek #2, the previous one Peek #3,

Obviously there is still small Peek #1 to come.... :) ???

Come on Eh?   :-\  Pretty pretty PLEASE, just one more?  :D

so....WOW!..... now we know:
It's called the EGO inverter.... (ah, how do you invert an EGO?);
10,000W and 1000W versions at least, some with USB and multiple power supply outlets;

it has at least 3 gauges, one of  which has an X/Z coordinates and is scale-able;
a POWER button'
an AC bypass built in, (hmmm  what about the one in the  E-Panels, redundant?)'
a gauge showing AC Out xxxxxxx'
and a switch to choose AC Current or Volts or BB  Light (?) ;
and probably another variable gauge or LED readout...

Robin, you must have studied the fine  art of  'how to seriously taunt someone...'    :-X
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on January 16, 2016, 03:12:58 PM
So from the glimpses so far it appears the inverter is a modular design, those captive front panel bolts appear to be securing a module into a frame. Sort of like that modular inverter design that Exeltech produced.
So I'm guessing a chassis with  basic supervisory module then one to several power modules to make up the total power output required. Perhaps a power saving scheme that only enables power modules as the output current required
Front panel analogue gauges, whether real or digitally simulated look novel (retro?)


dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Cniemand on January 16, 2016, 03:22:41 PM
And the suspense tightens.... :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on January 16, 2016, 04:54:59 PM
Taunting you guys is fun. The "BB" stands for "Bomb Bay light".
We have been calling this the Ego inverter for a couple of years now. We do not want that to become the official name though.
The goal here is to have something that looks like it came from a B-17 bomber. I think we are achieving that.
We are open to anyone that has a better name for the inverter. I have wracked my puny brain and haven't come up with a cool name yet. I do like the WW2 airplane type of flair though. Don't really know why?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on January 16, 2016, 05:17:30 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on January 15, 2016, 07:42:50 PM
Obviously the count down is on...  this is Peek #2, the previous one Peek #3,

Obviously there is still small Peek #1 to come.... :) ???

Come on Eh?   :-\  Pretty pretty PLEASE, just one more?  :D

so....WOW!..... now we know:
It's called the EGO inverter.... (ah, how do you invert an EGO?);
10,000W and 1000W versions at least, some with USB and multiple power supply outlets;


a POWER button'
an AC bypass built in, (hmmm  what about the one in the  E-Panels, redundant?)'
a gauge showing AC Out xxxxxxx'




Power button? Hmmmm, I don't think we have one of those.
E-Panel AC bypass: What E-Panel?
"A" gauge showing AC out? Should we have a guessing game on how many of these supposed meters we have?
We call those front panel screws "thumbscrews" We are having the first proto batch chrome plated right now.
Where are all you guys from anyway. Once we quit letting the smoke out of the EGO, we will want to do some testing. I know a couple of you are Kiwis. What part of NZ are you all from? We are thinking this may work for North America and internationally just by moving a jumper although this is asking a lot. We pretty much know what Canada needs for power.
Like the Exeltech? Not even close! What we are doing has never been done before.
One more peek, then I better cool it for a while. This part moves. I did not plan on this looking so art deco. It just turned out that way.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: RossW on January 16, 2016, 05:43:01 PM
Quote from: Robin on January 16, 2016, 05:17:30 PM
Where are all you guys from anyway. Once we quit letting the smoke out of the EGO, we will want to do some testing. I know a couple of you are Kiwis. What part of NZ are you all from? We are thinking this may work for North America and internationally just by moving a jumper although this is asking a lot."

I'm in Australia - SouthEastern part, on the NSW/Victoria border, about 150 miles inland.
I do hope you were able to include some of the suggestions I made to Bob a year or two back. One in particular that is a feature NO OTHER INVERTER HAS (AFAIK) - you'll have network connectivity, so will have NTP available, meaning a good, accurate clock. Counting cycles is trivial for a decent inverter. Since so many of us have devices that use the mains as a timebase, how about making the inverter count cycles and drift ever so slightly to ensure exactly 4.32 million cycles per day (50Hz, 5.184 million for 60Hz devices)? If (when) you make it generator-interactive, this will be a MAJOR selling point - let the inverter tweek the total cycles over time to counteract the inevitable generator frequency errors!

On the subject of networks, please, please, please put enough grunt in the box that it only needs a web browser to use, configure, control and monitor. We don't need yet another device with dedicated software that only runs on windows!

Give us a decent network stack, something we can scan from time to time using simple http requests (or modbus, or snmp, or something "standard") to monitor our systems; and something we can use our computer remotely or our mobile phone, to see what's going on when we're not there. Something you can "unpack, bolt on the wall and point a browser at" to configure it.

Quote
We are open to anyone that has a better name for the inverter. I have wracked my puny brain and haven't come up with a cool name yet. I do like the WW2 airplane type of flair though.

Well, I was wondering about names that are sort-of related to the B17 and its ilk. This is a powerful beast. Grunty, completely new ideas, a change to the landscape. A bit like the atomic bombs were to chemical explosives of the day. Forgive me if this sounds insensitive, but there are lots of interesting sounding names of thermonuclear devices that could be an entire family name...

"Trinity" was the codename for the first test in 1945, I believe the device there was "the Gadget". Of course there were the ones we'll never forget - "Fat Man" and "Little Boy".

Just thinkin' out loud....
RossW
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on January 16, 2016, 06:09:43 PM
I seem to recall the B-17 was nicknamed "Queen" during development at Boeing. I wasn't there but knew some old timers who were.

Just more useless info bubbling up.

Those planes were (are) a class act and apparently built like an anvil.

That's it call it "Anvil" It was the code name for one version of the remote controlled B-17 "Bomb" project which failed in WWII.

I digress

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on January 16, 2016, 08:09:04 PM
Quote from: Robin on January 16, 2016, 05:17:30 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on January 15, 2016, 07:42:50 PM
an AC bypass built in, (hmmm  what about the one in the  E-Panels, redundant?)'

E-Panel AC bypass: What E-Panel?

Hi Robin, I guessed that there will now be a MN Inverter specific E-Panel and that, ie. as the Outback model has an AC by pass, (well mine did at least) the MN inverter friendly version would also have the same goodies in it...

"The Midnite E-Panel integrates high voltage PV input, charge controller outputs, inverter over current protection, DC load circuits, AC input disconnect, AC input/output bypass, AC load circuits......"

Names?  What about the Gudgel Grunt Gadget Line-up? ;)  No, can that one...  :'(

The Juggernot Line,  "a huge, powerful, and overwhelming force or institution"

Or tying in to some Star Wars airplanes (Jets?) lots of good ones, http://www.starwars.com/databank

or some names like Nautilus, etc.,  nautical sounding names ....
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on January 16, 2016, 08:20:11 PM
I always liked Jules Verne's Nautilus. I also wanted to build one, but don't think I will live long enough to see that project through.
We may have trouble selling the "Fat Man" to countries like Japan.
When I was much younger I actually worked at Boeing on 707's with an old guy who built B-17's right there at the Renton plant.
I am happy that I have confused you all about the need for an E-Panel.
As far as the clock counting correctly when running with a generator. How does the Classic MNGP work as a clock?
I believe a built in webserver has been talked about. There are other things being worked on also. The communications guys will see this.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on January 16, 2016, 08:46:29 PM
Robin
Ross is asking that we keep track of the frequency so if the generator runs for 2 hrs at 58hz we can then run the inverter after that for 2 hrs at 62hz to correct clocks. SMA does this and it is part of the ac coupled frequency dither algorithm

Ryan
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on January 16, 2016, 08:52:22 PM
lots of products use different names in specific countries, so  the "Fat MAn " could be "the Sumo".... 
''a form of wrestling in Japan in which a contestant ..... usually being men of great height and weight''
sounds like a hunker to me
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: zoneblue on January 16, 2016, 09:24:58 PM
Anvil has a certain ring to it. Going the other direction from Kid. 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on January 17, 2016, 02:15:07 AM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 16, 2016, 08:46:29 PM
SMA does this and it is part of the ac coupled frequency dither algorithm

Ryan

SMA have got themselves in a mess regards the AC coupling HZ frequency shifting. I know because it don't work in the real world.

Nothing worse than a supposedly Off Grid Inverter that's so messed up with continues tweeking of the software/frequency, that the machine now has to be locked to equipment from the same manufacturer.

After years and years of using Off Grid Inverters, all I want is a SD card function just in case I need to look at data, other wise I couldn't care less about seeing continues streaming stuff.

Think 10 years time, will Windows even exist, will tablets still be around.

Please, please  just keep the New Inverter simple, especially for simple folk like me!

Name, how about a Female name?  All good machines are Female, I even talk to mine......

Here's my 'babe' as I wrestle with her 30kg/60lb Heart....
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Cniemand on January 17, 2016, 06:50:08 PM
I'm in the Rocky mountains of Colorado. :-) Plenty of sun out here to test inverters.

I would be happy to have an inverter that can have its voltage set points adjusted on the fly with either using the Classics LCD screen on one you already own or have the ability to communicate with it through the LA so we do not have to purchase a separate programming unit (mate - style)

This would be important for those of us that opt to go against the tradition of lead acid but rather try different cell chemistries that comes along. So far LFP cells.

Cloud
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on January 23, 2016, 04:58:21 AM
A couple of possible names for the new inverter series:

Comet (50's retro motif + a streak of light in the (Mid)Nite sky...)
Knight (an extension of the Brat/Kid trajectory + a play on MidNite Solar).  You could also use subdivisions such as "page", "squire", "hedge", etc.

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on February 19, 2016, 05:19:13 AM
i'm trying to do a bit of catching up here so forgive me if i've overlooked anything or assumed something. if it has a military look to it, then possibly give it military names or ranks. something like major  or even sub it to major boB or captain robin and so on. new models or upgrades you can just change the name rather than the rank like major tom or colonel klink. the promotions are possible too so one could keep the name and upgrade the rank.

or even call it b-17, b-52, f-15, etc. if you really like the planes.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on February 19, 2016, 01:03:57 PM
Neil, I really like the "Major Bob" name, but we have ten engineers working on this full time. There will be a couple of versions though. I am going to kick this around.
Thanks,
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on February 19, 2016, 04:52:23 PM
Seeing the inverter should be a fantastic product with mucho power and reliable I suggest "Solar Storm".
I will hold my hand up to test the unit in australia if that is an option.
I am mainly 24 volt here, but I can run a 48 volt inverter if needed  :)
Will there be a variety of voltage input ranges?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on February 19, 2016, 04:59:04 PM
personally Im looking forward to stepping up to 48 volts and hope its a MN , will be patient .
I do like the ranks/name idea, It leaves room to expand.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on February 20, 2016, 04:53:52 AM
I am still looking forward to the New Midnite Inverter.

Meanwhile I am doing a new 10kW OzInverter.

Here's a pic of the new Toroid, that's 4 commercially wound silicone iron cores, stacked.

This new bare core is 35kgs (about 70lbs) as is.

The toroid is important, but there are Inrush problems, I have tech specs.

The biggest of the Midnite breakers seems to cope, with a phut!, although on this New 10kW Inverter I will do a small standby circuit, and timer that allows a 50r resistor with small wires to initially charge my Power Board. Before the Midnite breaker is allowed to be switched on.

New Toroid.

1.  We stack the cores, keeps the copper loss down, but increases the core mass so its cooler and can handle more. But, now’s here the sting, the core centre is now too small, because of its double/quadruple  stacked height, for a normal commercial toroid manufacturing winding machine to get in. Therfore, this design has to be hand wound, so we use a cut out winding table/bench for easy handling.

2.  After each secondary winding, we Epoxy the winding before putting the next layer of Mylar insulating tape on. Its not to heavy coating, but this stops the windings from vibrating, rubbing together and eventually failing, it also helps with cooling.

3. As this design is hand wound, the Primary small number of turns can be the full size big diameter cable. 50mm/2, AWG 0 (1/0),  or 75mm/2, AWG 00 (2/0) .  This also helps significantly with keeping the toroid cool as this winding is open, and air flow can easily circulate around and through the toroid.

Trust this helps.....


 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: qaggaz on February 25, 2016, 06:02:07 PM
Curious if there are any plans for integration with AC coupled microinverters (to better enable 3 stage battery charging), or DC optimizers (to better support module level monitoring)?

(As far as testing goes, if you are looking for any Alaskan volunteers, sign me up!)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 03, 2016, 10:57:26 PM
We have talked about micro inverters. I don't think we will be able to compete with anything made at MidNite, but we will eventually work with some micro company just like Magnum and OutBack are doing. I used to think we might be able to compete at the 600W level, but the micro inverter companies have gotten soooooo cheap, that is doubtful now.
As far as optimizers go, we are definitely looking at that. There are 8 different types of inverters we are going to build. Three of them are supposed to ship by the end of this year. That is a tall order though, but I am optimistic.
I am not sure how we are going to handle beta testing. Two of these inverters are wind grid tie to go with our own turbines. The third is the EGo. The EGo will be the most revolutionary inverter in history! It is not small, nor cheap, so I do not know how to handle beta testing. I suppose we could offer screaming deals to willing participants, but they are too costly to just give away. We will talk more about this inverter/charger all in good time.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on March 04, 2016, 02:55:52 AM
Quote from: Robin on March 03, 2016, 10:57:26 PM
The EGo will be the most revolutionary inverter in history!

That will be interesting.

Are you Going the High Frequency way without a transformer or Low Frequency with a good transformer.? If its a charger as well then it sounds like a Low Frequency, more robust which is good.

It will be interesting to see how you handle the back charging through the EGo Inverter, or are you going to make it Prime,? with Charging parameters, and use software to link to the PV, Etc, DC charge controllers and the AC coupled GTI's.

I have just published my booklet, A4 size, 76pp, 167 colour photographs and drawings, describing the construction and tech stuff of the 6kW & 10kW Inverter.
Its whizzing out all over the World for review at present, however its very obvious to me that most folk want an off the shelf Inverter, I tell them that Midnite is on the Case.

Building you own for most folk it seems, even with my instructions, is a step too far.

Give us a good Inverter, and please don't let your engineers get bogged down re-inventing the wheel.!

Bon Courage.



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 04, 2016, 05:40:21 AM
Quote from: clockmanFrance on March 04, 2016, 02:55:52 AM
Quote from: Robin on March 03, 2016, 10:57:26 PM
The EGo will be the most revolutionary inverter in history!

Are you Going the High Frequency way without a transformer or Low Frequency with a good transformer.? If its a charger as well then it sounds like a Low Frequency, more robust which is good.

I hope its low frequency with a BIG toroid containing a few dozen KGs of copper  :)

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 05, 2016, 12:18:04 AM
You guys are far off base. This is like nothing the world has ever seen before.
Title: Secret under cover photo of new inverter !
Post by: ClassicCrazy on March 05, 2016, 12:30:56 AM
Sorry Midnite ,
We can't wait so a little espionage was done of the new inverter.
This is a photo of the inside .
(//)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on March 05, 2016, 04:49:52 AM
that could be an expensive fan to run and I really don't think you will be able to count on it when the inverter heats up ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on March 05, 2016, 06:51:49 AM
Quote from: Robin on March 05, 2016, 12:18:04 AM
You guys are far off base. This is like nothing the world has ever seen before.

Lets see........   A mechanical Inverter, (electroplaters use).

                       A latest chemical direct battery to battery Inverter.

                       A super capacitor Inverter.

                       A pulsed Inverter.

Either way, its going to get very interesting...............

Hamsters have a Union nowadays, I am told.............LOL
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 05, 2016, 04:33:14 PM
No, it isn't that radical, but it is really different for sure.
I think I added a CAD picture of this before, but this one is more real.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 05, 2016, 06:39:49 PM
Robin, you Tease!  same old, same old...

Can't remember what or when it was but that outline is causing my brain to say...'I've seem that before',

no copyright infringement going on is there?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 05, 2016, 06:55:21 PM
I seriously doubt there is any copyright infringement going on. The features you are looking at began due to things happening behind that part. The springs and latches dictated most of the features on the front. When I looked at the front side, it kind of looked like an art deco space ship, so I just added to it little by little. I am not aware of anything out there that looks like this. If there is then it is pure coincidence. Wish I could show you more. All will happen in good time. You do not even see this part on the EGo most of the time. The part you do see is not art deco at all. It looks like it came out of a B-17.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on March 06, 2016, 07:45:19 AM
Ha guys, Im really interested in your inverters, any idea as to when the 48 volt would be available? I want to step one system I have going up to 48 volts and prefer the mn as you make a great product so if it will be at a point within reason for my system I will wait on the upgrade.
Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 06, 2016, 01:08:15 PM
The large 48V battery based inverter called the Ego is expected to ship at the end of this year. We still have a long ways to go before it is ready for sale, but we have ten engineers working on this project. I have worked on lots of inverters over the past 26 years, but the Ego is by far the largest project to date, so when I say end of the year, be aware that there are a lot of issues we will need to overcome. That said, we are trying get our first beta units ready for in house and very limited field testing in three months. Once the Ego is on the market, we will be able to quickly come out with smaller derivatives of the Ego.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on March 06, 2016, 01:29:22 PM
Quote from: Robin on March 06, 2016, 01:08:15 PM
The large 48V battery based inverter called the Ego is expected to ship at the end of this year. We still have a long ways to go before it is ready for sale, but we have ten engineers working on this project. I have worked on lots of inverters over the past 26 years, but the Ego is by far the largest project to date, so when I say end of the year, be aware that there are a lot of issues we will need to overcome. That said, we are trying get our first beta units ready for in house and very limited field testing in three months. Once the Ego is on the market, we will be able to quickly come out with smaller derivatives of the Ego.

Thank you Robin!
Patience is not always my best trait but Ill try to hang in there as I have never been disappointed with any product Ive received from you Folks!

Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 06, 2016, 08:30:49 PM
If you can wait, I can promise you that you will not be disappointed. This is nothing like anything you have ever seen or used. Yah, ok it does invert and charge, but it is just so cool, it will make you want to instantly sell your old stuff and get one on order. I have never said anything like this about the other 2 dozen inverters I have been involved with. I do the mechanical design, not the electronics, but I do steer the electrical guys to do it right. Many of those inverters went on to become the inverters that all others were judged by. This has been happening for a long time. This one is in a class by itself.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 06, 2016, 09:59:05 PM
So will a 50Hz 230Vac version be released at the same time?
Any info of the likely weight and physical size dimensions?
Also the DC input cable connectors - are they decent size ring lug connectors rather than stick bare cable end into receptacle with tightening bolt (as in Classic)

dgd

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on March 06, 2016, 10:49:21 PM
Quote from: Robin on March 06, 2016, 08:30:49 PM
If you can wait, I can promise you that you will not be disappointed. This is nothing like anything you have ever seen or used. Yah, ok it does invert and charge, but it is just so cool, it will make you want to instantly sell your old stuff and get one on order. I have never said anything like this about the other 2 dozen inverters I have been involved with. I do the mechanical design, not the electronics, but I do steer the electrical guys to do it right. Many of those inverters went on to become the inverters that all others were judged by. This has been happening for a long time. This one is in a class by itself.

Robin
I believe all you have to say and will wait for your inverter, I don't wish to do my system twice and feel that the MN inverter is well worth waiting for!
walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 07, 2016, 12:01:00 AM
 :)  ::)  ::)  :-\
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 07, 2016, 12:54:11 AM
Bob White, I see you have 2 Brats that have problems. You also have one Classic resting?
Is there something we can help with?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on March 07, 2016, 04:12:07 AM
Quote from: Robin on March 07, 2016, 12:54:11 AM
Bob White, I see you have 2 Brats that have problems. You also have one Classic resting?
Is there something we can help with?


thank you Robin, the two Brats are ok. I need to pick up some proper panels for them before putting them back into service. One I smoked it running off panels not appropriate and voltage was too high. Wasn't thinking about what i was doing you could say.  I had it fixed http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?topic=2690.0  As soon as we slow down at work I will pick up panels about two hours away and most likely new batteries as the batteries have been bouncing around in the back of my truck all winter running a snow plow and four flood lights.
I do have many projects going and the wormer / longer daylight days will help! Thats  along as I take my time and do it right :)
The resting classic I Have a project going that involves a group of people Raising Quail (BobWhites  :D ) We Had a large lose in 2015 to a gray fox
and will hopefully get the project back on track this year.

I do thank you Robin!

Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: RossW on March 07, 2016, 04:48:15 AM
Quote from: Robin on March 05, 2016, 04:33:14 PM
No, it isn't that radical, but it is really different for sure.

A tiny power-block of ultra-efficient design, but that is massively stackable. Tiny little inverter blocks of say, 100W, but if you stack 10, or 100, or 1000 of them together - for $2 a piece, it lets you have very low stock count, virtually infinitely scalable, and internal redundancy (if you lose a couple, no biggie). Probably easy enough to make 'em hot-swappable.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: qaggaz on March 07, 2016, 06:54:48 PM
Quote from: Robin on March 03, 2016, 10:57:26 PM
As far as optimizers go, we are definitely looking at that.

Great!

Quote from: Robin on March 03, 2016, 10:57:26 PM
I suppose we could offer screaming deals to willing participants, but they are too costly to just give away.

A screaming deal is better than no deal at all! I look forward to reading more about the EGo in the coming months.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on March 08, 2016, 12:49:01 AM
Quote from: Robin on March 03, 2016, 10:57:26 PM

    I suppose we could offer screaming deals to willing participants, but they are too costly to just give away.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm In , just give us a week to have the cash ready for Pick-up.

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 08, 2016, 01:30:58 AM
Ross, did you ever think about the connectors required for infinite stacking? The EGo is stackable for sure, but not 100 watts each. It is a bit more.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on March 08, 2016, 03:44:49 AM
RossW, I like it....

'Eltek' in Norway, (closely guarded secret on their products, I was sworn to ssshhhh just to get a manual), do a very good stackable PSU plug in system for isolated European telecoms installations.

The quality is superb and the insides are neat.

I have to modify those power Pins for individual Unit use.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on March 09, 2016, 04:20:19 PM
Quote from: Robin on March 05, 2016, 04:33:14 PM
No, it isn't that radical, but it is really different for sure.
I think I added a CAD picture of this before, but this one is more real.

With these image snippets it looks like the new inverter is progressing to completion
I know you said in earlier posts here that a 230Vac version was not too easy to do but perhaps, taking into account Hofstadter's Law, sometime several Qs after the initial released 110v version?

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 09, 2016, 08:07:41 PM
We now believe the 120/240VAC 60Hz version will be the same for you at 230VAC 50Hz. There will be a setting or jumper to tall the inverters what to do. then inside the wiring compartment, you would not hook up to the neutral. We think this will work. If it does work, then we would want to include some stickers to replace some of the 120/240 stickers. Mostly it would be replacing the AC hot 1 and AC hot 2 with AC hot and AC neutral or something like that.
We have 7 people working on circuit board layout. We have some of the boards in house, some on order, some in layout and some on round two of layout.
We are going as fast as we can, but we are still a couple months away from having a complete unit put together. You have no idea what a large and complicated project this is.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 10, 2016, 05:49:46 PM
I bribed an Engineer at Midnite....He/She swore me to secrecy if I revealed too much info on the new Inverter/Charger. A veiled threat of a permanent ban on any Midnite BETA Testing offers was clearly stated.  :-X

This is my first impression: WOW! & WOW again! That's just from a visual of the prototype. Did I say, WOW! OK, I did...

The boring metal box hanging on a wall or sitting on a shelf is NOT what they are designing/creating. This isn't going to be just eye candy, the internals will be loaded with lots of protein! When Robin stated that once you know the specs and capabilities of the EGo, you will want one and your old or current Inverter will seem like a Model T in comparison.

Everything you dislike about your current Inverter has been addressed. Or almost everything. User friendly? Check. Upgradeable? Check. Versatility? Check. Local & Remote monitoring/access? Check. Features you can't even imagine? Check.

For anyone that's been waiting or wanting the ultimate Inverter/Charger, stop holding your breath. It will be here very soon. :)

Sorry, no pictures......but, Robin says you are welcome to stop in at Midnite Solar in Arlington and SEE the new Inverter prototype in person for yourself! Yes, you are reading that correctly. It's not Vaporware! Best to contact boB or Robin before stopping in so one or the other is around to show it to you. :)

Please note: They asked me not to take any pics of it while I was there. Understandable as Midnite should be the ones to drop the curtain so to speak, when it's ready to meet the world. :)







Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on March 11, 2016, 03:06:56 AM
Excellent news to here about real progress.  :)

If Midnite get this Inverter right, you should have a World beater on your hands.

We here come from the RE & sustainability Philosophy point of view, sadly a very different mentality than most folk, who talk.... but don't do.

We have Mains Grid, sometimes, but our RE system design is cost effective and sustainable for the benefit of this planet for our childrens children. Before you ask, yes, we can beat the main Utilities prices/charges.

Okay so what do us barmy folk want from an Inverter.....

1.      Draws little power when running. An absolute must for treating your precious batteries with care.

2.      Can actually deliver power at the kW rating stated,  and for us in France 48vdc to 230vac at a pure sine wave of 50HZ. And be expandable in the future and not locked into one particular manufacturer.

3.      Uses Units / components readily available at a cost effective price, be expandable, and can be repaired or component parts re-made .

4.      Does AC Coupling and DC Coupling without the need of secondary very expensive add On’s.

5.      Does back charging to the battery from the AC Coupling side.

6.      Is Cost effective, and not astronomical expensive.

Do you realise Midnite, get these Inverters correct, your Company will change forever, Lads (& lasses), you will be stepping into a very, very different league.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 11, 2016, 10:18:51 AM
We are understanding of your ideas. Bob and I have been involved with some of the best inverter designs still available today by other companies. Some of the things you ask for are right on the money while some are not so easy to understand. As far as price goes, we will have small and inexpensive to large and expensive. That just goes with the territory. More parts means more cost. The more we can do with firmware, the cheaper they get. The EGo inverter has about ten microprocessors on it. We will be doing a lot with firmware!

Our tenKW inverter will have the idle power of one with much less power. This is new to the industry.

All inverters that have a UL, ETL or CSA listing are capable of putting out full rated power. I do not understand your request here unless you are comparing to Chinese inverters that do not have any real agency approvals. CE is NOT an agency approval by the way.

The battery based inverters we are designing should be able to work at 230VAC 50Hz or 120/240VAC 60Hz.

The EGo can be repaired by a ten year old kid. You will not be able to go to the hardware store and get parts to fix it, but you will have the ability to get it back running immediately. You will have to get those parts from your dealer.

The EGo will do Ac and DC coupling without the need for additional parts.

You will be able to charge batteries while AC coupled.

We do not know the price yet, but there are quite a few inverters planned just for this reason.

We are well aware that we are going to change things. We did that with the Trace DR and SW inverters from the 1990's and once again when we did the Outback FX and VFX inverters. Those were nice incremental improvements to the inverter industry. The EGo is light years ahead of those designs!

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on March 11, 2016, 02:19:15 PM
Many thanks for your positive reply..

Quote from: Robin on March 11, 2016, 10:18:51 AM
All inverters that have a UL, ETL or CSA listing are capable of putting out full rated power. I do not understand your request here unless you are comparing to Chinese inverters that do not have any real agency approvals. CE is NOT an agency approval by the way.

In particular I am talking about SMA Sunny Islands, I had a SI6, but if you dig in the data small print it will not do 6kW continually and yet it is inferred in the product name. In-fact mine would not do 4kW for more than 15 minutes. What I am saying is be honest with your output figures, that's all. I am sure that Midnite will.

This new EGo sounds exciting.!

PS, I do understand your reluctance to talk about any other Inverter manufacturer except of course those you were involved with.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 11, 2016, 02:47:24 PM
Yup, sort of like;

Honda makes eg, a 2000W inverter generator, but it will only 'run constantly' and output 1600W
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 11, 2016, 02:53:41 PM
Knowing that you are in France explains quite a bit. The Sunny Island sold in North America will put out 6KW continuously. It would not get the UL/CSA listing for 6KW if it didn't. They are allowed to round up on the model number, so I suppose it might only do 5500 watts, but knowing what it weighs, I think it probably does 6KW. Ryan has one at his house, so he can look up the label and see what it says. I am in Edmonton Alberta at the moment so I cannot look at ones we have at MidNite. In Europe SMA and everyone else just has to put the CE label on the product. To me the CE label is pretty well good for nothing. I have seen too many companies do the self certification and they just lie about things. SMA would not do that as they are the leaders over there, but there may not be any requirement that ties model number ratings to specs. I am surprised that you are getting only what you mentioned though. How are you measuring things? It is very difficult to do measurements with any accuracy at home. It takes a pile of test equipment to verify output power in the lab.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: vtmaps on March 11, 2016, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: Robin on March 11, 2016, 02:53:41 PM
I have seen too many companies do the self certification and they just lie about things. SMA would not do that as they are the leaders over there

Not so long ago I would have said that about Volkswagen.  --vtMaps
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 11, 2016, 04:06:05 PM
If Robin & boB are involved you get more than you pay for. Under Promise & Over Deliver. That's been my experience going back over 40 years with any products they have manufactured.

If you want to be happy for a day, Drink. If you want to be happy for a year, Marry. If you want to be happy for a lifetime, Get Mooned! :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on March 11, 2016, 04:28:03 PM
So you are saying the new inverters will do grid tie feeds and standalone as well?
Similar to the sunny boy islands?
Charge your standalone system and then flick over to grid tie feed.
And will provide standalone power up to 10kw?
Is that from one inverter or stacked smaller units?
I am not a tech person, I can birth assist cattle,  other vet work, firearms design and repairs, build fences, houses and rebuild motors  etc.
The point for me is the unit needs to be super reliable, dumb proof, good performance and indestructible.
My old latronic inverters are not quite as old as me but are going on 10 years old and operate without a hiccup!
They are tanks and out perform beyond their stated specs (back breakers to lift). :(
I wait with anticipation!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 11, 2016, 10:06:04 PM
All I can say is you will have to wait and see. Most all the inverter designs I have been involved with over the years are still functioning out there. The Latronics is a good inverter. They are nice people too. Their inverters are not like what we are doing though. Our inverter will do a lot more things than the Latronics, so it will be more complicated for those that want to take advantage of the features built into the EGo. The first ones on the market may not have all the features we are thinking about, so from that stand point, it will be pretty simple.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on March 12, 2016, 01:44:32 AM
Will it do Generator Support ?  Properly ?

  When charging batteries and it qualifies the generator, will it slam full load onto the genset, or will it activate transfer switch, then ramp up battery charging ?   In gen support, can it sense a overloaded genset dropping RPM's and start unloading battery charging, or wait till it disqualifies the genset ????
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on March 12, 2016, 05:02:56 AM
Quote from: Robin on March 11, 2016, 02:53:41 PM
How are you measuring things? It is very difficult to do measurements with any accuracy at home. It takes a pile of test equipment to verify output power in the lab.

Firstly the SMA SI6 has a SD card, and by looking at what it reports and what it does, and boy what an eye opener that was! something that I used to shoot back at SMA.....

I do have my labs, clean rooms, chemical room, machine room.

I don't have masses of stuff, just a couple of HP stability time bases, with DVM, and other nowadays readily obtainable metering stuff.

I specialise in Micro engineering manufacturing, small batch stuff for R&D departments, in the mechanical manipulation of materials from 40mm to 5 micron. Over the years I have made simple electronic circuits for particular process or to achieve a particular one off work programs.

By calibrating and comparing metering stuff I can get reasonably accurate readings, probably around the + or - 5%, but I am not a specialised business doing this stuff day in day out, and certainly not at a certification level in this field.

Here's a pic of me bench testing, roughly, yes that analogue amp meter has been calibrated, and yes I used several different meters including Digital, my latest 6kW, 52kg, OzInverter for idle power use using different laodings.
Using the single open wound 32kg toroid and 3 turn ferrite choke I have about a 40w tick over use.

Its not as good as the SI6 but then the SI6 has separate windings and these would flicker the lights between its internal winding switching's.

I am not commercially orientated any more, and certainly not interested in manufacturing and selling Inverters. But, Personal empowerment and self-improvement is very much our Philosophy here in Normandy, especially with real hands on cost effective renewable energy creation.
With my small, A4, 76pp colour, "Making a OzInverter"  booklet I have produced, hopefully, I can pass on my 'Open Source' experiences to other interested folk and importantly the next generation, especially my 3 boys.

However, in the real world most folk want to buy a good, simple, robust and cost effective Inverter off the shelf, and not struggle making a good one of their own, so very soon I would like to point people at the New Midinte Ego Inverter.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 12, 2016, 10:41:22 AM
That OZ inverter looks like a serious piece of gear. I could not find anything on it though through a Google search.
You mentioned that the SMA has an SD card. That might record what the inverter was doing, but that isn't the same as bench testing it for continuous output. That takes hours and hours of full output to allow it to get up to max temp using thermal couples and data loggers. I don't think you have the batteries, power supplies or loads to do that. It is always a scramble for us to gather power supplies and loads for us when we do this type of testing on a powerful inverter. We are pretty hard on them too. Maybe that is why we have sent off 12 100 pound power supplies to be repaired! We were testing a 120 amp version of the KID the other day and we could only get 114 amps out due to loads and even then we were not testing it worse case because the input voltage wasn't high enough. The results were impressive, but when we test it with 120VDC input the thing will get hotter. The goal of this testing is to determine heat sinking and quantity of transistors, fet drive, inductor sizing and such. We need more equipment for sure, but every time we get more stuff it always gets allocated to production or to dedicated projects like burn in etc. If you guys are interested, we can post some of the boring test data here as it becomes available on the different projects we are working on.
We have been talking about the EGo inverter a lot here. I am attaching an picture of a 750 watt wind turbine grid tie inverter. This shows about one year's worth of development. The project is now in the re-layout phase (thank goodness). That board can't stand many more modifications. This inverter will have a very cool colored LCD display. It will have a Clipper built in as well as Blue tooth. It will be in an outdoor case. We are also working on a 1500 watt grid tie wind turbine inverter. Yes, we are also working on wind turbines (3 of them).
All together we have about 8 different inverters planned.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: clockmanFrance on March 12, 2016, 02:37:38 PM
Quote from: Robin on March 12, 2016, 10:41:22 AM
That OZ inverter looks like a serious piece of gear. I could not find anything on it though through a Google search.

Its New, its 'Open Source', the World moves on.

I named it after 'oztules', John Tullock, Flinders Island, Australia, the originator. I am just the Apprentice.

I understand that 'dgd' is making one.....

The OzInverter... summary... Get the silicone iron wound cores right, get the hand wound toroid correct, get the connections correct, get the cooling system correct, get the Boards in right...... Do it all properly..... and It will do 6kW for some time, that's if the batteries can take it, but it will also do even bigger/huge 15kW loads for a short time.

I have 1300ah at C10 48v batteries, 8kW of operational PV with 5kW of that on Trackers, simple, robust and cost effective, yep another booklet 2 years ago.
As I also have utilities power, I can connect in those ELTEK 100a 48vdc chargers, so testing for 10 hours or so is no problem.

Below pic shows the OzInverter, literally being bench tested down at my Power Station Building, the temp is in C after 30 minutes of 4.5kW loads with no cooling system. That Fan is a safety feature as the control board requires it to pulse back or the boards will shut down.

The 15kW Power board is robust and easily reproduced, but the Control board architecture is peculiar. At this very moment 'oztules' is working on a New Control board from the EGS002 board..... http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1&action=recent (http://www.anotherpower.com/board/index.php?PHPSESSID=h7jd5l4edljl6k4ls18pgfj4i1&action=recent)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on March 16, 2016, 12:20:40 PM
Robin,

The linch pin for the success of the B-17 was the Nordon bombsight.  Out of respect for those who flew before us, Norden (or something close) might be a possible name for the new inverter.

Also, I have a cabin waiting for a MN inverter to power it. 

Like I said before, you build it, I'll buy it.  I will gladly pay for a beta unit to work with.  So far I have amassed several sets of panels, a few Kids, and other items for the build.  Classics, Or their replacements, will be used for the retirement house when built. I am using 12 and 24 volt systems for now and will go to 48 volts when available. I have the perfect place for two windmills and a large area for solar.  This retirement house will be capable of being off the grid with power to spare.

Thanks for the great teases, I enjoyed the visit and have been patiently waiting for the inverters.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on March 24, 2016, 12:21:33 AM
from russ_drinkwater, "The point for me is the unit needs to be super reliable, dumb proof, good performance and indestructible."

i think we could say their stuff is super reliable or they strive for it to be as much as possible.

nothing is dumb proof. you can make something from every precaution imaginable and somebody sooner or later will find a dumb way to break it. it's called murphy's law and is why there's instruction booklets to try and head that scenario off and customer service just in case.

the performance of their stuff has been great and they strive for even better all of the time.

nothing is indestructible either, but i'm remembering a video i saw of the outback inverter where they literally ran it over.

in a nutshell they care and don't try to screw people over if that helps you.

the bad part is always the wait for the product to come out. i know as i'm waiting to see if this will fit my needs and when it will come out as my system is somewhat waiting in limbo too. another year. ugh.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 24, 2016, 01:02:20 AM
good to see you are still around niel.   8) ...  welcome to the 'space' where (some) members  try to deliberately find the limits and go beyond their design  ::)..  enjoy the wait!    ???
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 26, 2016, 04:24:20 AM
Stopped by Midnite for a peek at the EGo prototype. Snapped two pics before getting busted by security... >:( first pic is OK but my big fat finger ruined the only pic of the entire EGo.. :o

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 26, 2016, 02:42:25 PM
After undergoing numerous background checks, a few bribes and signing multiple non-disclosure agreements I was able to take the pic shown here of an EGo circuit board.

Note: Edited slightly to protect the innocent & the guilty... :) Oh...what's my impression of the EGo? Hmmm..makes my Radian look like a Model T. Inside and outside. Besides features/functions etc. like everything Midnite makes, this sucker is OVERBUILT!

Bean counters have a bad habit of ruining a great engineering design. Cut corners to cut costs and the product suffers.
The Midnite bean counters are extremely efficient at their job but quality is never allowed to suffer.

Case in point: The relays shown in this thread for the EGo are overrated well beyond the designed rating. Around 35% over any current that will ever pass through them. In contrast my Radian relays are rated at 60 amps with the inverter rated to carry around 50 amps, but unlike the EGo design, the Radian can't easily prevent a higher current from passing through the relays and they are known to fail in those situations.

Burned out AC relays and your home/business going dark due to bean counters going cheap on a simple relay in the EGo? Highly unlikely!

I know! Heavy duty relays...not very interesting. But it indicates what to expect in the EGo line when they become available. Overbuilt/over designed top to bottom and front to back.

Oh....if looks could kill! I'm putting mine in the front room! The EGo on the outside is NOT a boring plain Jane box you hide in the garage/outbuilding. That's where most will end up of course due to practical concerns but...Dang! I bet they could sell empty display only versions!  :)

More to come as I'll be stopping by Midnite often to follow the progress of the EGo line. Stay tuned!







Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on March 27, 2016, 06:37:40 PM
Hi,
Dumb proof means it can be set up easily and does not need constant tweaking!
Indestructable basically means it will last for decades with care and no abuse!
A lot of equipment made today whether analog or digital does not last.
Most of my equipment just needs to work and not breakdown.
A porsche is nice but will not last as long as some of the older diesel made in US or Great Britian tractors (Our tractors are both 45 years plus old and still going!).
One is fast and flashy/complicated (well made I guess), but the others are slow, simple and reliable!
Never inferred midnight was dogdy or ripoff? ???
I have run over a few cats if that counts? (In regard to inverter abuse)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 28, 2016, 12:05:03 AM
Eventually all of the pieces will come into focus.... :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mahendra on March 28, 2016, 08:42:34 PM
i am looking forward for those features.As i mentioned before i was awaiting a midnite inverter before i was forced to go with my outback which is wonderful by the way
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Raster on March 29, 2016, 04:13:10 AM
Looking forward to the new inverter. I don't have any equipment yet. Would like to see:

General: Robust, elegant, quiet (fans and operation), lightweight, very low tare, full support for AC coupled system (120/240), easy to repair, great warranty

Power: scalable, not sure what is a good low end. I would need 48V+, 3.5kw max. As someone mentioned with SMA, a better way to handle fully charged batteries than frequency modulation, maybe load diversion signal.

Comms: 1g ethernet, webserver for control

Battery support: include LiFePo, with signals for LVD(instant), LVD(timed), HVD, battery temp monitoring for too high or too low. CCCV charging with adjustable current cutoff

Shutdown: simple switch for outside and inside emergency shutdown, can be easily coupled with smoke detectors, etc. Shuts off AC providers automatically (microinverters), disconnects  batteries or provides signal to do so

Cost: not as important as other features

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Raster on March 29, 2016, 04:15:32 AM
Forgot one thing: Texas bug proof.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on April 02, 2016, 02:25:13 AM
let's see if the image carried over from onanparts as i have the answer to the question why they took it apart.

to find r2 d2.

(http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=602.0;attach=4635;image)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 03, 2016, 10:16:59 AM
Quote from: niel on April 02, 2016, 02:25:13 AM
let's see if the image carried over from onanparts as i have the answer to the question why they took it apart.

to find r2 d2.

(http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=602.0;attach=4635;image)

Also the little brother, R1 D1.  :)

Here is another piece of the EGo puzzle..... :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on April 03, 2016, 11:23:32 AM
Onan Parts is having way to much fun with this  :D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 03, 2016, 03:45:08 PM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on April 03, 2016, 11:23:32 AM
Onan Parts is having way to much fun with this  :D

I would never do that!  :)

OK, maybe one or two more......this is one of the very important components of the EGo. Actually it has Two of these.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on April 03, 2016, 08:19:19 PM
Looks like the skin of a very nicely ripen Avocado, like the one I just ate... yum yum  ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 05, 2016, 12:24:16 AM
Quote from: Westbranch on April 03, 2016, 08:19:19 PM
Looks like the skin of a very nicely ripen Avocado, like the one I just ate... yum yum  ;D

Might be the Avocado option?  :)

I think this is the Dilithium Crystal Chamber of the EGo...but not really certain.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 05, 2016, 12:40:43 AM
Hmmmm...seems to be a lot of interest in the EGo Mushroom board... :) So...here is a peek at another EGo board.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on April 05, 2016, 12:56:46 AM
Looks a right proper terminal block, 4 ga.?,  rather than those screws in the classic.. 8)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 05, 2016, 01:14:06 AM
Quote from: Westbranch on April 05, 2016, 12:56:46 AM
Looks a right proper terminal block, 4 ga.?,  rather than those screws in the classic.. 8)

That's one of the AC side terminals..... :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on April 05, 2016, 01:37:59 AM
Quote from: onanparts on April 05, 2016, 12:24:16 AM
I think this is the Dilithium Crystal Chamber of the EGo...but not really certain.

Thermal compliant interface to heat sink ?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Resthome on April 05, 2016, 05:38:46 PM
Oh no, more screw terminal for cables. Sure would be nice to see posts for lug terminals.   ::)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 06, 2016, 02:57:29 AM
Quote from: Resthome on April 05, 2016, 05:38:46 PM
Oh no, more screw terminal for cables. Sure would be nice to see posts for lug terminals.   ::)


Screw terminals are on the AC side. The DC side looks like this.  :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Resthome on April 06, 2016, 04:16:14 AM
Quote from: onanparts on April 06, 2016, 02:57:29 AM
Quote from: Resthome on April 05, 2016, 05:38:46 PM
Oh no, more screw terminal for cables. Sure would be nice to see posts for lug terminals.   ::)


Screw terminals are on the AC side. The DC side looks like this.  :)

Greate, thanks !!!  😊
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 08, 2016, 01:07:09 AM
I can't figure out two of the pictures. Di lithium crystals and the avocado. Onan Parts has a great sense of humor.
The terminal shown does accept up to 1/0, but that box lug is for internal wiring.
The AC terminal blocks, not yet revealed accept 2AWG.
The DC terminals shown use 3/8" studs.
There are 24 additional terminal blocks to accept an assortment of internal and external wires. I can't remember how many jack, but there are quite a few.
Someone mentioned "the circuit board" That makes it sound like it has only one. I'll buy dinner for anyone who can accurately guess how many boards in an EGo.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on April 08, 2016, 10:25:14 AM
Robin,after replacing a control board (?)  in a Classic, it looked to me that there are 4 , is that right?  That might give us  a base line....😂, as to where to start guessing...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 08, 2016, 12:06:17 PM
There can be 5 boards in a Classic. that is more than any other controller I am aware of. The EGo is nothing like a Classic though. In your wildest guess, I doubt anyone will be within 50% of the correct number!!!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 08, 2016, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Robin on April 08, 2016, 01:07:09 AM
I can't figure out two of the pictures. Di lithium crystals and the avocado. Onan Parts has a great sense of humor.


:) :)

Before and after of the Dilithium Crystal conversion via PhotoShop.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 08, 2016, 07:28:20 PM
Quote from: Robin on April 08, 2016, 01:07:09 AM
I can't figure out two of the pictures. Di lithium crystals and the avocado. Onan Parts has a great sense of humor.

;D
The Avocado before and after...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 08, 2016, 08:12:39 PM
OK, I should have been able to guess.
To all of you who have never met Onanparts........he is really weird!!!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on April 08, 2016, 11:32:17 PM
shall we all take a stab at guessing the number of boards in it? how about a prize too?

my guess----13 changed from 9 on 2nd thought. 13 is a lucky number.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on April 08, 2016, 11:40:16 PM
2 to the POWER of 8 = 256
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 09, 2016, 11:27:43 AM
When we finally let the cat out of the bag, we will give a prize to the person that was the closest guess.
We are still not 100% sure that EGo is the final name for this inverter, so feel free to toss your hat in the ring here too. I am not crazy about the name EGo, but haven't come up with anything better. I saw a new lawn mower called the EGO yesterday. That sort of bothers me, except it was a cool looking lawn mower.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on April 09, 2016, 12:10:58 PM
With all the mystery and world changing potential, just call it Fawkes.

Or not.

I thought I mentioned that Ego mower way back? Saw that connection from day one. It is normal for folks to ignore me so no offence! :o 8)

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on April 09, 2016, 12:40:20 PM
Maybe we should go back to the roots and call it the "Inverter"
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on April 09, 2016, 12:40:49 PM
Or maybe "Brutus"
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 09, 2016, 12:50:45 PM
Tom, sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you. The lawn mower happened to pop up on a TV at the restaurant yesterday while we were having our engineering lunch. It was eerie, we were talking about the model number and up comes the lawn mower?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 09, 2016, 05:20:36 PM
ego Electric lawnmowers, ego electric Motorcycles etc. and......the eGo-T Vaping thingy. :o
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on April 09, 2016, 09:05:38 PM
I'll go out on a limb and guess at 7 boards.   
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Resthome on April 09, 2016, 11:57:31 PM
I guess 15 boards. 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on April 10, 2016, 06:12:07 AM
Another name suggestion:  Dyno Inverter

60's muscle car vibe to match the retro styling

Smaller configuration could be Dyno Jr, etc.

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar LLC

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 10, 2016, 11:37:30 PM
Dyno was a company in Seattle that built the Brutus inverter many years ago. Today the OutBack, SMA, Magnum and Schneider are all knock offs of Milt Rice's Brutus.
Before inverters, I worked at Eldec with Milt. We designed military aircraft power supplies. I left and went to Trace to design inverters. Milt left for Dyno to do the same. Dyno never figured out how to reduce idle power though. Milt came to work with us at Trace until he died in an ultralight airplane accident. Milt would have changed the inverter industry even further had he lived. He always thought out of the box. I still miss him.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on April 11, 2016, 11:42:04 AM
Robin;

Let me point out some history to be aware of should you go with "Ego" as a name.

In 1978 Apple Records sued Apple computer for copyright infringement back when Apple started building computers.

Pretty sure it cost everyone to find out that record and computer companies are not going to be confused.

They are about as diverse products as mowers and inverters.

Maybe no big deal but those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Just saying..

From the lunatic fringe.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 11, 2016, 12:22:48 PM
I do not want to be associated with a lawn mower, so we will have to change the name.
Game on!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on April 11, 2016, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: Robin on April 11, 2016, 12:22:48 PM
I do not want to be associated with a lawn mower, so we will have to change the name.
Game on!

I hear that!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on April 11, 2016, 12:47:38 PM
This thing is SO cool and SO revolutionary it seems like we should make up a word for its name. It deserves a new word :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 11, 2016, 01:47:56 PM
m#4lrtQ2ter

OK, now you guys give it a try. We need to give this thing a new name.

The person who names it, gets to see it!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on April 11, 2016, 04:45:51 PM
"Solar Storm"

And 22 boards in the unit!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on April 11, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
If they are actually using quantum entanglement, as I heard via Internet rumour, the number of circuit cards could be infinity or  zero or any number in between. But once you observe it it may change unpredictably.

Or not.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on April 11, 2016, 06:36:22 PM
Quote from: Robin on April 11, 2016, 12:22:48 PMI do not want to be associated with a lawn mower, so we will have to change the name.  Game on!

SunGo (or is that a shade product ?)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on April 11, 2016, 09:06:20 PM
Ok Robin, 3 of us have not been able to decipher your Twitterese ...  we are not twit friendly   ::)
...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 11, 2016, 11:13:40 PM
Sorry, there was no thought that went into it, so you can quit knocking your head against the wall.
Hah, gotcha though!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on April 12, 2016, 03:24:58 AM
Quote from: TomW on April 11, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
If they are actually using quantum entanglement, as I heard via Internet rumour, the number of circuit cards could be infinity or  zero or any number in between. But once you observe it it may change unpredictably.

Or not.

Tom

So if one of those engineers working on the Ego is actually a physicist with expertise in application of Quantum Mechanics then two observations:
- The inverter may not actually be an inverter but more likely an extractor where energy (matter) is drawn
   from entangled particles located, probably, in distant galaxies or even alternate universe(s)
- That Physicist will likely be disturbed being referred to as an engineer

Did the EGo just materialise after invoking Brownian motion in a good strong cup of tea (ref: HHGTTG)
Is this the end of battery banks, PVs and solar controller electronics. This QM extractor needs no local power input electrons but just a switched pair of Q capacitors for electron output

dgd

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 12, 2016, 01:15:51 PM

[/quote]

So if one of those engineers working on the Ego is actually a physicist with expertise in application of Quantum Mechanics then two observations:
- The inverter may not actually be an inverter but more likely an extractor where energy (matter) is drawn
   from entangled particles located, probably, in distant galaxies or even alternate universe(s)
- That Physicist will likely be disturbed being referred to as an engineer

Did the EGo just materialise after invoking Brownian motion in a good strong cup of tea (ref: HHGTTG)
Is this the end of battery banks, PVs and solar controller electronics. This QM extractor needs no local power input electrons but just a switched pair of Q capacitors for electron output

dgd
[/quote]

dgd,

boB has incorporated a modified "Continua Drive" based upon his reformulation of current theories on N-Dimensional non-euclidean geometry.

The number of circuit boards is calculated at:

10,314,424,798,490,535,546,171,949,056


However, that may be just the instantly accessible boards. It's rumored that Robin has theorized the actual number of boards is infinite.




Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on April 12, 2016, 04:36:39 PM
Quote from: onanparts on April 12, 2016, 01:15:51 PM

dgd,

boB has incorporated a modified "Continua Drive" based upon his reformulation of current theories on N-Dimensional non-euclidean geometry.

The number of circuit boards is calculated at:

10,314,424,798,490,535,546,171,949,056


However, that may be just the instantly accessible boards. It's rumored that Robin has theorized the actual number of boards is infinite.

Interesting, but, perhaps there is just a small prime number of real boards with those apparent large numbers being the observer's view from within the quantum field because boards become visible at all points in the observer's sight. A classic case of the harder you look the more you see.

Methinks we are observing the early outcomes of design that eventually leads to the Quantum Gudgeliser.
There is much speculation in 25C that the New Word religion (belief that we all originated from a smoke filled quantum box and will all go back there one day although the Heisenberg cult refute this) had its origins at the same place. But thats getting off-topic  ???

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 12, 2016, 05:21:14 PM

Methinks we are observing the early outcomes of design that eventually leads to the Quantum Gudgeliser.


dgd


The Quantum Gudgeliser was replaced by the new and improved 12 Dimensional Gudgelresistentialism method.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on April 12, 2016, 10:01:05 PM
The name just needs to be MARVIN (the robot with the ego)
It also brings the M for Midnite and vin for Inverter plus Midnite Marvin just reads and sounds so correct .

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 12, 2016, 10:04:59 PM
I kinda like Marvin.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on April 13, 2016, 05:52:33 AM
Darn it is catchy and fits with our quirky naming system
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: keithwhare on April 20, 2016, 10:48:22 AM
For completely made-up names, how about the MidNite Olatean?

What does it mean? Idunno. One of my servers has a program that generates pronounceable passwords.

Keith
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 28, 2016, 11:32:34 AM
Dgd was getting close when he said the inverter may not be an inverter. By the way, there are lots of boards. It is actually not possible to give you an accurate count for not so obvious reasons. I kind of lost count around 75!
 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on April 28, 2016, 06:20:12 PM
Hi Robin, Is there a chance you can give an estimated time that a 48 volt (inverter that may not be an inverter) might cost (no pressure or holding to it!!)  ;D and when it may be available?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mtdoc on April 28, 2016, 07:15:04 PM
I suggest calling it the "Special"

"Let the Midnite Special shine the light on you.."

Midnight Special (http://youtu.be/M6NmHEFB2n8)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on April 28, 2016, 08:20:05 PM
Hmmm, the'' MidNite Off-Grid 48 Special ''... 8)  almost tells it all, eh?  Just add Volts  ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 28, 2016, 08:24:56 PM
We have actually been looking at the MidNite Special. I like that name. The first two model numbers will be MN10K48-5 and MN6K48-3 That is a big clue to those of you trying to figure out what we are doing.
We are hoping to be shipping the EGo,MidNite Special or Marvin around the end of the year. Good luck to us. I doubt we will make it that quick, but that is our goal.
We plan on showing this at the Solar Power International show in Las Vegas in September. SPI is the largest show in North America and we do not want to miss our chance to be the hit of the show. We are scrambling to have something that sort of works by then. We do not have all the PCB's done yet. There are 18 different boards. This is a very big project. The largest one I have ever worked on for sure.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 28, 2016, 11:38:28 PM
Actually "off-grid" is only part of what it will do.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on May 02, 2016, 01:15:27 PM
Sounds like I need to change my September plans. :)

6K for the cabin would be awesome!  Duel 10K's for the retirement house; Perfect!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 05, 2016, 12:46:23 AM
Got a good look at the unit.
Robin posted it up on the Webinar today .
Very Similar to the picture I glanced at the plant .
Saying that this new unit is a system , Im ASSUMING that it has a built in classic of somewhat !!!

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on May 05, 2016, 09:00:11 PM
Quote from: Robin on April 28, 2016, 08:24:56 PM
We have actually been looking at the MidNite Special. I like that name. The first two model numbers will be MN10K48-5 and MN6K48-3 That is a big clue to those of you trying to figure out what we are doing.
We are hoping to be shipping the EGo,MidNite Special or Marvin around the end of the year. Good luck to us. I doubt we will make it that quick, but that is our goal.
We plan on showing this at the Solar Power International show in Las Vegas in September. SPI is the largest show in North America and we do not want to miss our chance to be the hit of the show. We are scrambling to have something that sort of works by then. We do not have all the PCB's done yet. There are 18 different boards. This is a very big project. The largest one I have ever worked on for sure.

Robin , I do hope you all .ca pull it off by the end of the year! I've got my hate set on the MNSpecial 48 as I will definitely need a inverter by the end of the year.  ;)
Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on May 05, 2016, 09:37:31 PM
Dang, I would sure have liked it if there was a 24V version of the MN6K48-3   :'(   :-\

I did notice in the naming /numbering convention that there is a 2000W sub-module being part of the design... 10K xxxx-5, 6K xxxx -3   ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 05, 2016, 11:22:21 PM
Give a cigar to Westbranch!
VT got to see it. Yes, it is much more than an inverter. There can be a Classic of sorts although if one was employed, it may just be twice the power. The question is how many?
I am attaching a photo of some boards we just ran for the MidNite Special.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 05, 2016, 11:22:53 PM
By the way, VT didn't say what he thought of what he saw?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on May 06, 2016, 04:56:11 AM
Robin,

    I'm guessing the photo is a power board driver assy?  And given the cap size, probably for a pretty serious one!  However, since I'm an embedded firmware guy, my "guesses" are subject to flash updates as necessary :)

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 06, 2016, 05:42:38 PM
The boards are fet driver boards. We can have as many as 50 in one box.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 07, 2016, 10:11:02 PM
Quote from: Robin on May 05, 2016, 11:22:53 PM
By the way, VT didn't say what he thought of what he saw?
Robin , I like your person & friendship , I asked if I may GPS your house & I would not ever post either way or pictures of what i saw @ midnight or on the web.

This is due to respect of what Robin & the Team are holding off.

I saw a stack 5 of the new "Midnite Spectral * "
The look will fit right into the classic form,& now that woman of the classic , DANG !!


* =Name altered  to protect the Mighty

VT

Plus Robin I want to chat about your bird in the Garage .
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 08, 2016, 12:37:39 AM
No problem with the GPS. I am probably in the phone book anyway. If you GFP the house, you will notice a place next door that encompasses 1600 acres. Nobody lives there except the grounds keeper. It has a private 18 hole golf course that gets played about 5 times per year. People like Bill Gates come there for parties. I may have to learn to play golf by moonlight. They must not know who lives next door since they haven't invited Mary and I over for tea yet? You will also notice a small gauge railroad complete with bridges, tunnels round house and three miles of track and three different types of engines. They have 18 go carts with bleachers. These are NOT Sears and Roebuck golf carts! There is a stream that crosses our driveway. It flows onto the golf course. The stream dries up in the Summer time, although on the golf course they have turned it into a full blown lake stocked with fish and boats. The fellow who built this place owned part of Bayliner Boats. He sold it to a really rich guy named Craig McCaw. Now I know the difference between multi-millionaires and multi-billionaires. It is the size of their helicopter.

Yes, the MidNite Special is pretty sexy. Well, as far as an inverter can be sexy that is.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 08, 2016, 01:53:54 AM
K
multi-millionaires and multi-billionaires. or like me Multi-centenarians are no different .
The best thing is if you can have straight open eyes & and hand shake & enjoy the day as it was played out .
I scare some folks from being so  forward , I know who I am .

VT

Ps I call ya next week
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on May 08, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Put me down for a MidNite MN4K24-2

td
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BioPower on May 10, 2016, 08:04:12 AM
I have 2 Trace 4548e Inverters both built last century, one is still going strong the other is not sensing output current saying the breaker is tripped, I will get around to fixing it one day. If your new ones will be as robust, reliable and flexible as these you will certainly be getting some of my dollars.

I was talking a little while ago with an Engineer from a local Australian company that manufactures very well liked inverters. He had not heard of Trace before and was surprised to hear how mine was still going at 17 years old. Apparently they don't use components that are designed to last that long.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on May 10, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
I'm still using ones older than that....2 of the first true sine wave inverters built.(edit....comercially marketed)...The Dynamote Brutus.......still going strong......I don't even know how old they are......still working flawlessly.
Built stronger than a brick sxxxthouse.....handles bigger startup loads than my 4 kW Magnum.....it's 3200 watt 120 only but will start my 2 hp 120/240 compressor wired for 120 where the Magnum will stall starting it at 240 volts!.......ok Brutus has a surge capability of 11.6kw where the magnum is 5.8kw.   Whopping 96 watt idle.........I don't leave these on, only turn on to run highly inductive loads that other inverters can't handle

Designed in part by Milt Rice......he later joined the crew at Trace.......the roots of outback, Magnum,and MidNite

Dave

Edited for clarity
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BioPower on May 10, 2016, 05:05:17 PM
Interesting, mine starts air compressor etc but does not like my abrasive metal cutting saw, I have had to add a soft start to it otherwise the Trace inverter shuts down.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on May 10, 2016, 10:07:27 PM
Different kinds of motors have different startup charastics, motors with two capacitors on top are capacitor start/capacitor run.... Basically a capacitor combined with the inductance will cut the startup load......hence easier starting for those kind.....  Technically the capacitive reactiveness balances out the inductive reactiveness of the windings providing a better power factor to the supply ( inverter) which results in less power to start.

In my case the air compressor motor has only 3 windings, 2 running and 1 starting....so on 120 volts the start is underpowered resulting longer startup.....and on 240 the start winding is overpowered drawing over 40 amps for a short time, the Magnum chokes and shuts down.

Looking inside the two inverters, the Magmum looks puny.....very small bus bars...(boB commented on their design on this forum about the size of the bus).  The Brutus is a tank....transformer is much larger.  Like the ones in the SW's.     That is the key to overload capacity.

I'm pretty brutal on inverters , I do field service work and have aux. Batteries and inverters in my work truck in addition to a 4 kW Onan generator to run power tools.

I let the magic smoke out of 3 Zantrex ProSine 1 kW units......I get better life out of the Cotek
SK-1500 than the ProSine units,

Be careful with a Delta chop saw......those guys throw out a whopping spike on blade braking....inverter did not survive

Dave

Work truck setup: 3 ea GC-8 (24v) running Cotek 1500 and Brutus.....one or the other....main engine dual alternators. 12v/130amp.motorcraft &  24v/100 a Leece-Neville  130 amp fork lift charger (120v/24v) Onan Emerald 4
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BioPower on May 11, 2016, 01:15:52 AM
The saw I am referring to has a universal motor made by DeWalt. Everything we use is 50 HZ single phase 240 volt or 3 phase 415 volt. The Trace is 230 Volt but it seems to run around 235 most of the time anyway, I doubt that little difference would matter anywhere.

Does anybody run a welder off an Inverter? I have a 240 Amp MIG welder, I have never been game to try that on the Inverter, 8 KVA Lister Generator has no problem with it.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on May 11, 2016, 04:15:52 AM
BioPower,

That saw has the same motor but does it stop real fast when you release? The brake circuit did the huge spike, I don't think the abrasive saw has that same stop. They are series wound rotor AC/DC motors which do not have a huge start surge, I'm surprised that the Trace can't handle it. I use a Miller 120 volt powered 130 amp mig welder on Brutus or Magnum with no problem, it's transformer operated.  Some of the newer Miller mig welders are switching mode power supply and will run on inverter with no problem.

If you have one of the floor mounted mig welders.....I.e. Not benchtop,  I'd be reluctant to try it,
I use a friends Lincoln 255 amp and it's got a startup surge that dims the shop lites....50 amp input

Dave
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: vtmaps on May 11, 2016, 04:32:05 AM
Quote from: tecnodave on May 10, 2016, 10:07:27 PM
Be careful with a Delta chop saw......those guys throw out a whopping spike on blade braking....inverter did not survive

Ouch!  Would the inverter have survived if you had a Midnite SPD on the inverter output?   

--vtMaps
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on May 11, 2016, 12:17:56 PM
Vt,


Didn't have one........when I buy a new midnite inverters they will have....for now I have three on my home sys.......one on each MN6PV combiner....MNSPD300DC...and one an AC output of system..MNSPD300AC......only AC input is Onan......totally trust those guys

I never thought about putting one on service truck but it happened......I have blown a dozen inverters doing mobile service......lots of cheepies.....3 Pro-Sine's.....ouch! Those are a grand a pop!....got a great deal on Cotek SK1500-24 (replaced by newer model.....still made but being phased out) so I got enough to fill a few magic smoke bottles!

Dave
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 12, 2016, 12:48:52 AM
Quote from: BioPower on May 11, 2016, 01:15:52 AM


Does anybody run a welder off an Inverter? I have a 240 Amp MIG welder, I have never been game to try that on the Inverter, 8 KVA Lister Generator has no problem with it.

I do , I have a 48Vtrace running a gasless Mig , Im just on doing a convert to a Gas bottle & back up to .035 solid wire so I can
get some deeper depth penetration . I'm just doing small welds via the Golf-Cart .
Topic is here :
http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?topic=3142.0

VT

Edit Add , Reading TD's post's  Im buying a few SPD's  JUST BECAUSE & to be SURE ..
VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BioPower on May 12, 2016, 04:32:47 AM
My Mig is a big floor job, can weld up to 12 mm plate, mostly what I do is fairly light stuff though. But the big transformer in it is what worries me and the back EMF. The primary side is always the same regardless of setting, it switches windings on the secondary to control welding voltage/current.

I know some one who welds directly off his battery bank with a large transformer converted to be  choke and a long strip of stainless steel wrapped around a board in a spiral. To vary the current you just move a clamp to very the resistance through the stainless steel. Would nice to find a design for a PWM version of the resistor. DC welding like this is far better than using an AC stick welder.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 12, 2016, 10:50:17 PM
If IM welding 12mm / 1/2" plate & need depth of penetration  for Gama inspection , I would never be doing anything solar , crap a cloud while in mask , you WOULD cause more work in repair .
I have Fuel gen welders , to soldering battery irons , KNOW the WELD/JOIN

Mine is for light field work , more than that I'll load a screaming Diesel gen/welder .

VT



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on May 14, 2016, 05:30:05 PM
Hi,
Send a pm to offgridqld!
I know Kurt uses a mig, milling machine, lathe etc regularly off his inverters.
From memory his workshop inverter is an elcheapo from taiwan but it handles the draws from the mig and now even his
car hoist! :o
Unsure what amps they draw, but he will be able to tell you exactly.
Russ

I use latronics here and they also are tanks, and weigh the same at times I think!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on May 19, 2016, 05:45:11 PM
Ok you welder ppl, question
I have a Classic 250 that has suffered squashing and the top panel that bolts on is broken in 3 pieces, MNGP was sheared in two and the main box that has the inductors in it and FETs etc had the bottom plate and partially up one side where wiring bay is broken off.
I think the material is aluminum alloy.
I have this sort of weird idea to get the box and top fixed by having some obvious puddled looking welds so that when all together it has a battle scared survivor look to it.
Is this possible?

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on May 19, 2016, 05:59:44 PM
Dgd,  I think we are going to need a few pics before  guessing it can be done... ???
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on May 19, 2016, 06:36:52 PM
Wb,
I have left the remains with a tech at an alloy car wheel repairer but he didn't inspire confidence in me with his sharp intake of breath and head shaking as he viewed the bits. He seems to think I'm crazy with my repair ideas, will get some pics later.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on May 19, 2016, 08:02:13 PM
R.I.P    :o   ???   ::) ::)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on May 19, 2016, 10:23:35 PM
Dgd,

It is cast aluminum.  Tough to weld......I've done repairs on this type of aluminum using a metals specific 2 part epoxy compound marketed in the states as "JB Weld". 

David
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BioPower on May 20, 2016, 05:10:11 AM
Quote from: dgd on May 19, 2016, 05:45:11 PM
Ok you welder ppl, question
I have a Classic 250 that has suffered squashing and the top panel that bolts on is broken in 3 pieces, MNGP was sheared in two and the main box that has the inductors in it and FETs etc had the bottom plate and partially up one side where wiring bay is broken off.
I think the material is aluminum alloy.
I have this sort of weird idea to get the box and top fixed by having some obvious puddled looking welds so that when all together it has a battle scared survivor look to it.
Is this possible?

dgd

Might be worth asking the nice people at Midnite what price new parts are. I think you will find that they are die cast and a pain in the arse to weld however you can get solder for it such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh5W0xbZ9es
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on May 20, 2016, 06:28:34 AM
I have a boiler maker friend who can weld @*#& to glass. Tig, mig, arc, some of things I have seen him do is unbelievable. Heat will be your biggest problem if there are electrical components still remaining in it or is it just the cover you are talking about?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 21, 2016, 10:30:31 PM
You can weld / join / solder  this cast Aluminum but as Bi has posted,
But the black finish will be smoked off ,
See if Midnight will repair Or sell you the parts.


PS I welded again to day for 2 hrs on repairing a trailer . I waited for float & full sun  on elly  (mobile golf cart)
VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 07, 2016, 08:48:49 PM
That classic is so screwed up you need new castings and mngp parts. Send me your list of parts you need and we will semd them to you. No charge.
Robin@midnitesolar.com
I am curious how thongs gpt this brokem though.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on June 08, 2016, 01:56:16 AM
See , This is why I push Midnight Equipment .
It starts from the top.

Robin Down this weekend , I'll touch base next week .
VT
Nig`
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BioPower on June 08, 2016, 03:42:36 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 07, 2016, 08:48:49 PM
That classic is so screwed up you need new castings and mngp parts. Send me your list of parts you need and we will semd them to you. No charge.
Robin@midnitesolar.com
I am curious how thongs gpt this brokem though.

Would that then be getting close to a chargeless charge controller?  :P
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 14, 2016, 09:11:19 PM
Just bring the whole thing. We will replace the casting and make any enhancements that may have happened since you purchased it. By the way wenow have the official name for the big inverter. It is the b17.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on June 14, 2016, 11:12:09 PM
Robin,

Your attitude towards your customers is one of the foundational reasons I Love Midnite Solar.  Class American Company.

AND I LOVE  B17! 

I will be buying more than one... When you say they are ready.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on June 14, 2016, 11:17:07 PM
I agree Highflyer /Brian

VT/Nig`
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 15, 2016, 12:33:53 AM
You may not need more than one B17? It can be as high as 10,000 watts. It can also be 8,000 watts with a 160 amp MPPT controller. We will also have smaller versions.
Once all 8 patents have been submitted, we may be able to talk about it more. I normally poo, poo patents, but the B17 is just too novel to give away to the competition. These patents should let our competitors know that this is all ours. They will not be happy as we think this will be the way inverters need to go in the future. I suppose they could ask us about licensing the rights to manufacture something like the B17, but will we allow it? This may turn out to be fun.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on June 15, 2016, 09:30:55 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 15, 2016, 12:33:53 AM
You may not need more than one B17? It can be as high as 10,000 watts. It can also be 8,000 watts with a 160 amp MPPT controller. We will also have smaller versions.

Well, since the B-17 has a flight ceiling of 37,500 feet It would really be a coup if the inverter was capable of being configured for 37.5 KW.  8) The required battery and connections would be a sight to behold at 37+ KW, approaching 800 amps probably need a 3" copper rod to handle that with acceptable losses. Fantasy is so much fun.

I love the name. The B-17 aircraft is a tough old bird  as I expect the inverter will be.

My personal interest in high capacity is centered around the 24KW 240 VAC demand water heater we replaced our ageing gas water heater with.  Probably a bit much for any RE system I can afford. Hopefully, B-17 can deal with that by working in concert with the grid to use what we have. The term for this escapes me. We are happy with this demand heater but it does spin the meter pretty quick while heating water.

I digress.

I love the name and projected features.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on June 15, 2016, 05:50:36 PM
after 19 pages of messages,

will it be std NA Split Phase 240VAC   
What sort of phase imbalance can it manage
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on June 15, 2016, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: mike90045 on June 15, 2016, 05:50:36 PM
after 19 pages of messages,

And 4 years to the day.....  pretty fast and furious!

I can't wait...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on June 16, 2016, 10:51:12 PM
robin,
congrats on the name for the new inverter. will different wattage classes have a different b-xx name? i am anxiously awaiting to see what you guys are going to offer, but my needs are much smaller than 8kw or 10kw.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on June 16, 2016, 10:58:57 PM
i also thought of a feature that you may or may not like to consider in the future for inverters. it occurs to me that when my power went out that the transition was so smooth that i did not realize the power went off and i am draining my batteries. a few times i hit my preset cutoff battery voltage and then i knew it was out. some sort of timer or timestamp of power losses and their duration would be helpful. even a small beep or buzzer for a few seconds can also alert one to it switching over, but the timestamp would be of best use to me. i'm not to sure what others may think of this. opinions?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BioPower on June 16, 2016, 11:58:31 PM
It is probably part of it any way but a remote control panel with some leds to indicate what state is in and a reset-able audio alert would be very practical.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 17, 2016, 09:37:36 PM
We are planning grid tie battery based inverters all the way down to 1000watts. The b17willtalkto you so when bats get low it will let you know
It will alsp be able to data log
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on June 19, 2016, 07:34:28 PM
very good robin. i skirted it and biopower also touched on it that when the inverter switches to battery power that often times we could be caught unaware. i mentioned a buzzer or a beep and bio mentioned the remote led, anything along this line being incorporated? both may be a good idea as the beep is a one time thing if you are nearby at the time and the led may not be seen right away, but if you weren't there when it beeped the led would still give indication you are drawing battery power.

as an example with security dvrs, security videos have the ability to be seen realtime on a monitor, but one can't watch it for activity constantly and many dvrs have a motion detector that trips an alarm for a few seconds give or take as one programs it. i have such a security dvr and have detected trespassers both ways. this isn't foolproof and wouldn't be foolproof for the inverter using both methods either, but in many cases it can alert one to better power management needs needing to be incorporated.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mahendra on June 20, 2016, 07:19:46 PM
i am hoping the prices  are as kool as the name and as compared to the competition.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 20, 2016, 08:16:36 PM
The big inverter (B17) is not cheap. You will see why when we are allowed to show it. There will be different versions of this high frequency inverter that will be a lot less money. We do not yet have a price for either the MNB17-3 or the MNB17-5
Give me another couple of weeks and we may have preliminary pricing. This is much more than just an inverter!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on June 21, 2016, 03:15:40 AM
Will there be a range of input voltages Robin?
Or just straight 48 volt?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 21, 2016, 08:30:25 PM
48V is all we will be offering for a while on the big inverters. We will have 12 and 24V versions on smaller less complicated units in the future.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on June 21, 2016, 11:20:56 PM
Not that I want to be upsetting to a  sparkle new person in  the solar reality , 12Vdc is such a limiter on the Harvest side ,,while we have converters , buck converters ETC to handle many voltages.
The Gas / petrol / benzine car has a dated time expire from 6Vdc to 12 & then PWM voltages & up to 400Vdc .
12Vdc  was party line / dial phone / 5c cokes till now of Cell phone slaves & coke-a-buck with sugar taxes .
I can't see doing a high tech system & down grading it for ?  MAKE the new RULES !! 2016 & I'm  still waiting  for Judy to pick me up in her dads (Mr Jetson) ride !!!


(never going to happen , they don't even land track /drive straight or signal!) Drivers , not Judys !
VT=Pilot of fling wings
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 22, 2016, 12:30:19 AM
Twelove volt inverters will be limited to:
1. A 1000 watt inverter/charger with grid tie capability for the doit yourselfers.
2. A 2000W and 2800W inverter for the RV industry. MAgnum is selling far too many inverters into that market. Neither one of those is for off-grid use. We may do a 24 and 48V 4000W off-grid unit too. Those last two should also have grid tie capability.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on June 22, 2016, 12:38:39 AM
Robin,

Put me down for that 4000 watt off grid unit. The Magnum is ok but it does walk around in voltage. Makes my LED lites flicker more than the Cotek or Exeltech.  I have a buyer for the magnum so no loss there.

David
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on June 22, 2016, 08:32:40 AM
+1 4000 watt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on June 22, 2016, 04:54:22 PM
The higher input voltage inverters ie. 48 volts would effectively cut the company out of many potential markets and sales.
Not everyone wants lithium ion batteries and I would say FLA and gels will be around for decades to come.
Everyone can source a 12 volt or a couple of 12 volts to get an inverter up and going coupled to 1-6 panels.
Why should they suffer the problems and lack of reliability of kungfu inverters because quality units are not being produced!
A lot of people are not trying to run their entire homes on offgrid solar.
1-2 kw of reliable solar power is all they need and many exist on a lot less than that.
Also the growing market revolving around preppers and those who want a bit of power security can not and should not be ignored!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on June 22, 2016, 07:20:11 PM
Good points Russ .

I can see Robins reply on the 12Vdc side , But the pictures I saw of the "B17 -ego"  & what I saw on robins laptop he showed me , Seemed way lots (but all I saw was pictures ,haven't a clue above that) for a 12Vdc .
Im also assuming on "More than just an inverter " so has it's own charge controller is what I assumed also.

No Worries , just get the 8 patents passed with dotted ey's !  then we all can see the pictures.

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 22, 2016, 08:21:10 PM
The 12V and 24V inverters will be just plain old inverters like everyone else.
The large one is quite different.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on June 22, 2016, 10:58:29 PM
Quote from: Robin on June 22, 2016, 12:30:19 AM

We may do a 24 and 48V 4000W off-grid unit too. Those last two should also have grid tie capability.

Robin, put me on the list for a 24 V model!! 
I'll be waiting, patiently......

Thanks,
EJ
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on June 22, 2016, 11:49:30 PM
EJ, is this for running an off-grid home? If it is, I can gaurantee you will want the 48V B17. Don't worry we will get you guys such a sweet deal you will want the real deal. The B17 is awsome. That is actually an understatement and I normally don't say things like this. Of course there is a little issue of making it actually do what we envision. That will be a chore for sure. We should have all 20 different boards here in two to three weeks. Then the hard work begins.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on June 23, 2016, 12:42:08 AM
I would love a 24 volt inverter, but I think the $$$$$$$$$$$$$'s may scare me off for a while!
Postage is also a killer to australia.
A 4kw latronics @ 24 volts is $3,700 and right at my doorstep. And from the 2nd hand ones I have been using they are really reliable
and built like an analog tank.
I can dream though!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on June 23, 2016, 05:35:30 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 22, 2016, 11:49:30 PM
EJ, is this for running an off-grid home? If it is, I can gaurantee you will want the 48V B17. Don't worry we will get you guys such a sweet deal you will want the real deal. The B17 is awsome. That is actually an understatement and I normally don't say things like this. Of course there is a little issue of making it actually do what we envision. That will be a chore for sure. We should have all 20 different boards here in two to three weeks. Then the hard work begins.


Robin , put me down for 48 V  off grid   8)
Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on June 23, 2016, 08:07:48 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 22, 2016, 08:21:10 PM
The 12V and 24V inverters will be just plain old inverters like everyone else.
The large one is quite different.

Every organization should have a flagship product. With a namesake like "The Flying Fortress" it conjures  a vision of a bullet proof  device.

I suppose "Off Grid" units require less certification than the ones used with  grid, so quicker to market?


Can't wait to see this project come to fruition.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: vonbek on June 23, 2016, 04:26:29 PM
Hello,
I have not looked at this discussion for a while but it looks like we are finally close. Do I understand correctly that 12 volt inverters will be available, but not for off grid? I was hoping for a replacement for the Outback VFX 2812 which Outback has discontinued for the VFXR 2812A which requires the mate 3 which in turn has a lot of problems. I don't need anything fancy, just a reliable 12 volt off grid inverter. I do a lot of 12 volt systems off grid.
Anyway, how soon for pictures, pricing, specs, etc.
Dan


2 VFX 2812s, 1 MX 80, 1 MX 60, 4 C-40, 1 tri metric, many US 64s , 8 evergreen 110s, and 8 Kyocera KDX 145s
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: tecnodave on June 23, 2016, 05:35:05 PM
Vonbek,

I think what Robin said is that the 12 volt and 24 volt inverters will be "plain old inverters"  so I assume not grid tie........I really don't think 12 volt is grid tie territory.......so I'd bet 12 volt units will be an RV special to compete with Magna-Sine MS2812 and maybe an off grid unit similar.....I think that is where the volume is. Robin did mention that Magna -Sine is selling an awful lot of MS2812's.
I see a lot of them.

David
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on June 24, 2016, 05:39:05 AM
Any ideas what the kw rating/output would be on the 24 volt units?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on June 24, 2016, 02:11:09 PM
Hmmm...time for another peak inside the B17?  :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on June 24, 2016, 06:24:48 PM
Quote from: onanparts on June 24, 2016, 02:11:09 PM
Hmmm...time for another peak inside the B17?  :)

Your having waaaaaaaay to much fun here!!! I can make out somthing here though  ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on June 24, 2016, 08:40:22 PM
Quote from: onanparts on June 24, 2016, 02:11:09 PM
Hmmm...time for another peak inside the B17?  :)

Your brave posting pictures , I have a few but I wouldn't post any till Robin said it was ok.


WestBank / EJ , so If ya want , the 48V unit times 2 &  lets use my WA 98292 pad to pick them up on a trailer (less packing & hassle for all.)
I have picked up some Garage sale items that way & kept it as quick & clean as Possible , Plus you'll get to meet some real nice folks .


VT /Nig`
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on June 24, 2016, 09:54:53 PM
Quote from: CDN-VT on June 24, 2016, 08:40:22 PM
Quote from: onanparts on June 24, 2016, 02:11:09 PM
Hmmm...time for another peak inside the B17?  :)

Your brave posting pictures , I have a few but I wouldn't post any till Robin said it was ok.

VT /Nig`

Pics are run by Robin first before posting.  :)

This one is an early prototype of what was a proposed Variable DC input selection mechanism. It was discarded in favor of fixed DC input voltages to keep the cost within a reasonable limit. Strictly a rumor that Midnite will not confirm or deny. Most likely pure stale inorganic PlasmaboBoyism.



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on June 25, 2016, 12:07:36 AM

[/quote]

Pics are run by Robin first before posting.  :)


[/quote]
Kewl
Like & +1
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on June 25, 2016, 06:38:17 PM
Robin,
I said I was going to get more than one because of the farm.  I have three locations that need remote big power.  Of course, if I can figure a way to share the power better, I'm in. 

Further, will it come with a charge controller?  My current plans are two kids for charging per location and then the inverter for power.  One location will have lower power requirements.  In the end, I would like to have two wind turbines, two solar fields for the main location, and smaller solar setups for the more remote power needs.  I also have hydro available to run a generator, but I am unsure of its capability due to the drought and then extremely wet periods.

Don't know if this helped, its just my plans and any help in correcting the design now is greatly appreciated. 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on June 29, 2016, 08:57:59 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 22, 2016, 11:49:30 PM
EJ, We should have all 20 different boards here in two to three weeks. Then the hard work begins.


Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: laszlo on July 06, 2016, 01:18:56 AM
Nice progress on the MN  inverter!. I like the stackable FET boards. What about cooling and temp regulation? This is one of the problems that Magnum did not solve too well.  Magnum uses cheaply-made PC fans that kind of work with PWM but cant be replaced with quality fans.  There is a good video on youtube on this topic by a Canadian guy, search term: "magnasine repair youtube" if the link gets chopped:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-1OSFPHi04 .
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: animatt on July 06, 2016, 11:41:01 PM
Lazlo thanks for that link. Been dealing with an inverter that says fets are +60c  very often.
Even at idle.

I figured it was either a failed sensor or a failing fets. Fans on most of the time.
This video gives me some confidence of opening it up and checking.

I have been putting it off for a while.
I guess I will get to it.


I too have been waiting on the midnite inverter for atleast a couple of years. Glad it is coming along.


Thanks for the link.
Matthew wright
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on July 14, 2016, 01:29:10 PM
Any news :-) ?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on July 14, 2016, 08:40:19 PM
Quote from: Robin on June 22, 2016, 11:49:30 PM
Of course there is a little issue of making it actually do what we envision. That will be a chore for sure. We should have all 20 different boards here in two to three weeks. Then the hard work begins.

I take this to read that iff they got all the PCB's they are just now starting to assemble them... :) :) :) :)

then there is bench/proof of design testing, etc..
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on July 15, 2016, 05:16:44 PM
In the new year!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on July 23, 2016, 08:55:08 PM
We now have most of the boards in house. A couple of stragglers will show up next week. There is still a lot to do though. Writing, fixing and testing the code is a long drawn out job. We do have many engineers working on the project though.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on July 23, 2016, 09:09:57 PM
Quote from: Robin on July 23, 2016, 08:55:08 PM
We now have most of the boards in house. A couple of stragglers will show up next week. There is still a lot to do though. Writing, fixing and testing the code is a long drawn out job. We do have many engineers working on the project though.

sounding real promising for delivery this year! cant wait to see the final!!  8)   ;D
Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on July 23, 2016, 11:10:48 PM
Walt, what do you do with all that equipment?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on July 24, 2016, 06:01:51 AM
hi Robin, I run 3 refrigerators 1 freezer, a camper, heat water so it wont freeze for birds in the winter, maintain batteries on the farm equipment And run yard light. I'm short on panels at times but if all works out Ill be getting more in September and hopefully set up a few more systems with the Brats in the boat yard maintaining the trailers (there is nothing worse than low batteries when a storm is expected). We do also have grid tie system, I didn't set it up its a contract, so i also want to separate the apartment or addition as most call it and have it 100% off grid. one thing i'm hoping to do is set the addition up at 48 volts moving the freezer and two refrigerators into the basement so i can shut down two of the classics 150's and then ill have backup controllers if I have a problem with any that are running. I know I cant replace a cl200 with a cl150 but ill work threw it if the need arises.

Walt

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on July 24, 2016, 01:32:51 PM
Walt, You sure do have a bunch of stuff. It's a good thing panels are fairly cheap these days.
Talk to Michelle, our receptionist. She is the one that controls our garage sale. Sometimes she has lightly used equipment that can be had pretty cheap.
I think we have only ever had one Brat on the garage sale, but she may actually have it now?
I know if I wanted to get a bunch of gear and didn't have an exact date in mind, I would be talking to her. The garage sale controllers carry a full warranty and are as good as new.
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on July 24, 2016, 02:05:37 PM
Quote from: Robin on July 24, 2016, 01:32:51 PM
Walt, You sure do have a bunch of stuff. It's a good thing panels are fairly cheap these days.
Talk to Michelle, our receptionist. She is the one that controls our garage sale. Sometimes she has lightly used equipment that can be had pretty cheap.
I think we have only ever had one Brat on the garage sale, but she may actually have it now?
I know if I wanted to get a bunch of gear and didn't have an exact date in mind, I would be talking to her. The garage sale controllers carry a full warranty and are as good as new.
Robin

Thank you Robin! I have picked up a few CC from the garage sale and very happy with them Ill Keep Michelle in mind as I need to expand. I feel as of now my biggest need is a 48 volt inverter  ;)
Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on July 25, 2016, 01:11:18 PM
I guess it's time to look for a buyer 4 the victrons:-) :-) :-) :-)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on July 25, 2016, 01:48:19 PM
Please don't jump the gun. We still have plenty of work to do before these are ready for prime time.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mahendra on July 31, 2016, 08:37:38 PM
i guess its just excitement, and i do think some people are looking forward to communication among all their midnite stuff in the future .
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on July 31, 2016, 09:05:01 PM
Quote from: Robin on July 25, 2016, 01:48:19 PM
Please don't jump the gun. We still have plenty of work to do before these are ready for prime time.

Prime time ? Most of us stay up late for a Midnite Special !

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on July 31, 2016, 10:20:30 PM
Robin,

Are you guys still on track to show off the B-17 AT SPI in September? 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on August 01, 2016, 10:32:34 AM
Yes, It should be the center of the booth
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: nonsquid on August 11, 2016, 01:40:11 PM
Has any consideration been given by Midnite to Don Lancaster's "Magic Sinewaves" for a low cost approach to modified sine wave inverters to minimize harmonic ringing?

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/msintro1.pdf

This might be the paradigm low cost approach to building a reliable inverter without all the complexity of pure sine electronics.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on August 31, 2016, 04:17:54 PM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on August 01, 2016, 10:32:34 AM
Yes, It should be the center of the booth

Hopefully we will see some post as Im sure alot of us that are interested wont be able to make it!

Quote from: Highflyer on July 31, 2016, 10:20:30 PM
Robin,

Are you guys still on track to show off the B-17 AT SPI in September? 

Brian, are you you up for the task of keeping informed?  :-\ or maybe VT  ???

Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 01, 2016, 12:45:16 AM
We just sent off 9 crates of stuff to Las Vegas for the SPI show. In the past we have never taken more than 3 crates! I have included parts of our display here for your amusement. If you zoom up on the nose art you will see the name Leslie on the pocket of the lady. Leslie is really our graphic designer's daughter who did the voice for the talking Classic. Yes it is starting to talk. If you let her talk and say everything she knows, it goes for 8 full minutes. We will also be able to add Spanish and French. We will not have beta units ready by Nov. We just got boards stuffed a week ago and have been working hard to make 12 B17's for the show. They appear to be finished units although there is still more work to do. As far as how many solar panels can you hook up to the B17.......I think it will max out at about 16,000 watts of PV. No, that is not a typo.
I do not know who Don Lancaster is? I do know that we spent a lot of time at Trace Engineering and OutBack trying to make a cheap modified sinewave inverter do something clever to approximate sine waves. All attempts were failures. I will look at the link provided.

I just added two more pictures. One is the prototype of our 500 watt turbine. The other is Tommy busily building B17's for SPI. We had chaos for the past week or so in building #4 building these show units. Sorry the image is so low res, but there are lots of B17 parts in that picture.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on September 01, 2016, 12:57:57 AM
Thank you Robin, that is helpful information😅
Walt
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 01, 2016, 08:16:02 PM
Quote from: Robin on September 01, 2016, 12:45:16 AM

I just added two more pictures. One is the prototype of our 500 watt turbine. The other is Tommy busily building B17's for SPI.
I have met that young man , nice gent who showed me the wire stripping auto machine .
I have converted the PDF's into jpeg for the few .

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Eleceng1979 on September 05, 2016, 09:54:11 PM
Any chance of a data sheet of the inverter?  After the show of course... I have watched/waited for this product for over a year.  I registered just to post this...

If your inverter does half of what i think it does, it will be a game changer...  I have delayed my battery installation to wait for this product.

You guys rock, keep pushing the envelope and god speed for the NV show.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 06, 2016, 09:48:59 AM
Quote from: Eleceng1979 on September 05, 2016, 09:54:11 PM
I have watched/waited for this product for over a year.  I registered just to post this...

If your inverter does half of what i think it does, it will be a game changer...  I have delayed my battery installation to wait for this product.



I am "kind of" in the loop on this and they are playing this close to the vest as they say. Probably to hold off the Chinese Knock offs until they actually get them  out the door?  :o

From what little I am privy to, it will be like the difference between an old rotary dial  phone and an Iphone. Mostly the same in name and basic function  only.

I am putting together a balance of system to use with one when they ship, as well. Problem with that is  it may be "most of" a system itself and balance of system might be just panels and batteries. Charge controller module was mentioned in this thread and monitoring so it may well be a situation where you just add a source and storage?

I really don't know much but I have a pretty active imagination! Patience is a virtue I lack [among others]

I even heard it unpacks and installs itself!

Joking

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on September 06, 2016, 10:33:29 AM
We will do a quick iPhone video of the actual inverters Monday with Robin and get him to give us the speal. i will then through it on You tube.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on September 06, 2016, 11:30:57 AM
Wait,
I am working next week, but I am trying to get to LAS if possible.  I too can't wait to see the B-17 in action, and have waited to add solar to the cabin until the B-17 is ready. 

The anticipation is killing me!
16,000 watts, HOLY Snikies that's a lot of power!  I'm going to need a lot more panels.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Eleceng1979 on September 06, 2016, 07:46:25 PM
All,

I appreciate the words and updates.  Yes I am patient and will remain so without begging...

I am hoping for ac coupling as I am already gti and the previous 20+ pages alluded to that.  The 16kw rating was a shocker and an awesome bonus as I need slightly north of that and 2 of these would be awesome redundancy.   Now all I have to do is go find a money tree in full bloom... and a flatbed semi of batteries.

Right on about holding cards close to the chest.  I don't blame you...in this industry I assume it is very cut throat.  All I want is a 30k ft view of what it does.  Your details need to remain hidden for good reason.  When one gauges the life cycle and features of the classic and other products, we all can fill in the gaps of what level of quality and operation will be added/included during its lifecycle.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 09, 2016, 12:51:11 AM
You do not need 16KW worth of panels. 8 fits nicely too. When we have the 600V version, the output will probably be limited to 200 amps output.
AC coupling is in the works too. The B17 should AC couple to most all GT inverters, but we do have something special up our sleeve for this too. Can you spell micro inverter?
Prepare to be amazed Monday when Ryan posts. I will be amazed to see it all together in one place. I just hope we get everything set up, because that is the only day we will have to get 4500 pounds of stuff uncrated and set up. We sent 12 B17's to LAs Vegas. With 8 patents applied for, it may just make our competitors nervous.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 09, 2016, 01:18:21 AM
LIKE +2

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on September 09, 2016, 06:58:25 AM
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Eleceng1979 on September 09, 2016, 09:05:46 PM
Robin/Midnite,

Godspeed in Vegas.  Tradeshows are a trainwreck to get there and setup...the stress is stupid.  I have done IMTS and Forge Fair booths for my industry.  It is no joke and a ton of effort to pull it off.  I have no doubts you all will have success, all of you are some of the best around that have created some awesome equipment over the years.

Focus on the show and throw us a bone when you all have time.  I'm like a kid on Christmas morning trying to sleep waiting for this.  Hell, even my solar panels and inverters have butterflies waiting for the B17 debut...

Best of luck... take some photos of the dropped jaws and socks blown off...  It should be a great moment for you guys and your company.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 09, 2016, 10:00:40 PM
Agreed with above post ^^^
Like + ..

Im checking in daily to see WHATS NEW !!

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on September 10, 2016, 02:34:39 PM
Robin,
Will you guys please post some video on Monday ( or whenever you catch your breath)? 

Best of luck, But as I see it, luck what the other guys are going to need, that and a Mega sized portion of catch up!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on September 10, 2016, 02:39:37 PM
I fully plan on posting something. If all goes well I want to do a sort of interview with Robin and have him show us and explain (What he will anyhow) about it all
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on September 11, 2016, 10:00:11 PM
MN Crew,

Have fun!  Expect that you folks will steal the show.

TIA for posting pics,  video and anything else that you can about the B-17 and the show.

Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on September 11, 2016, 11:49:26 PM
boB, Robin and Sue doing some drinking and inverter thinking
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 11, 2016, 11:54:00 PM
Another teaser.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: qaggaz on September 12, 2016, 02:57:11 AM
Have fun at the show!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on September 12, 2016, 01:57:06 PM
Some more images
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on September 12, 2016, 01:58:28 PM
Phil installing the wind grid tie inverter
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 12, 2016, 04:05:51 PM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on September 12, 2016, 01:57:06 PM
Some more images

First, I gotta say I love the display theme and the look of that system! Kind of retro modern cubist, I guess.

Loots of questions but only 3 for now

Mechanical meters?

The significance of the meter color blue and red?

So what is the capacity of that stack of modules?

Anyway pretty exciting stuff.

Appreciate the share.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on September 12, 2016, 04:15:56 PM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on September 12, 2016, 01:58:28 PM
Phil installing the wind grid tie inverter

...  AND,  with a Yankee Screwdriver,   a  long one,  at that.

All looks great.  Would love to see a wide-shot of booth,  if possible.

Thanks for the pics.     Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on September 12, 2016, 06:27:09 PM
Here is one before the crates where removed
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on September 12, 2016, 06:59:44 PM
Thanks Ryan,

Love it,  very dramatic!   Have Fun,   Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 13, 2016, 12:07:07 AM
To answer the  questions from Tom:
1. The meters are Analog panel meters. We buy them from a supplier in China. Then we take them all apart. Drill holes in the back so we can install our own dual LED printed circuit board for lighting. The LED is a bicolor blue and red. When you turn on both at once it is purple. We are at present spending 1/2 hour per meter to make it our own. There are five different face plates. Tomorrow we will have filed for 8 patents and I can talk about it more.
2. Meters will all show blue in normal operation. If something goes bad, the meter will turn red. We haven't figured out what to do with purple if anything?
3. More on capacity tomorrow. We have to get the patents filed.

Photo 021 shows Andy's 750 watt wind turbine grid tie inverter. We will also have a 750 watt solar grid tie and a 1000W battery based grid tieable inverter in the same die cast Nema R enclosure with the cool display and blue tooth. The Classic is a prototype talking Classic.

Photo 018 is a shot from the end of the booth.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on September 13, 2016, 12:49:07 AM

Actually, we DID talk about purple.  It should be another status indication but I can't exactly remember
what status now ?

boB
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 13, 2016, 07:56:22 AM
Quote from: boB on September 13, 2016, 12:49:07 AM

Actually, we DID talk about purple.  It should be another status indication but I can't exactly remember
what status now ?

boB

boB;

Selling for the grid interactive units?

T
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on September 13, 2016, 10:58:08 AM
Any sneak peaks of the off grid inverters?
Is it time to list my victrons on the "for sale" topic yet..:-) :-) lol
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 13, 2016, 11:13:58 AM
Don't sell your Victrons just yet. We are not done with the B17. The B17 is an off grid or grid tie inverter. It must use batteries. (48V).
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: b4solar on September 13, 2016, 12:25:41 PM
The updates and the photos are very much appreciated. Thank you
Title: GT inverter
Post by: Westbranch on September 13, 2016, 12:32:36 PM
Not being at all familiar with GT stuff, how does that GT inverter compare weight and size wise with the competition? 
Pics I have seen of SB stuff looks 5 X as big as a Classic and this one looks ~ the same size and volume, +-

tks
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 13, 2016, 01:21:49 PM
Quote from: Robin on September 13, 2016, 12:07:07 AM
To answer the  questions from Tom:

Robin;

Appreciate you taking the time to post these updates!

I suspect you folks are as busy as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest, not to mention the pucker factor of the very public debut of this new system.

Anyway it sounds fantastic and glad you share what you can.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Eleceng1979 on September 13, 2016, 09:57:45 PM
All,

I like what I see so far...looks like 1kw modules in a rack but some look different...  So maybe independent modules doing grid sell and others supporting local off grid loads?  interesting... if true the ability to place unnecessary modules to sleep driving up efficiencies and lowering idle current.  Possible to shutdown modules to limit ac coupling, drive up self consumption to help battery charge regulation...hmmm...  or even better like dc and ac coupling in one box! Using pv input modules and inverter output modules allowing one to build it "anyway you want" to allow for large pv input and low inverter output and vice versa...  basically pv input charge controller and inverter Lego modules... Maybe I'm crazy and reading too much into it.   I need a napkin to wipe the drool up.  Am I crazy for printing the pics on 11x17 and staring at it for extended periods of time and writing ideas on it?

Going to display at a show and still fighting the patent office...talk about Las Vegas gambling...   the good news is no one has anything that looks like it, is modular like it and cannot compete at the 8 kw+ inverter size in a single/modular box but you.  It's black, has analog gauges, is modular and stackable and just plain sexy!  A true midnite product.  Good job guys!  And good luck!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 14, 2016, 01:26:55 AM
Here are a couple brochures of products at the show. These are early proofs and have not been corrected yet, so there are errors.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 14, 2016, 06:30:18 AM
Sweet looking system. Wonder if that battery box will fit through my weird and cramped basement entrance or at least break down to fit.

You guys are going to have a lot of competitors wishing they had thought of this [and did it].

Like Will Smith said when he piloted the alien craft in Independence Day:

"I gotta get me one of these!"

Thanks for the share, again.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on September 14, 2016, 09:44:23 AM
Quote from: Robin on September 14, 2016, 01:26:55 AM
Here are a couple brochures of products at the show. These are early proofs and have not been corrected yet, so there are errors.


Very Nice!!!
Any eta on the turbine?

George
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Eleceng1979 on September 14, 2016, 10:03:15 AM
Robin,

Thank you!  The B17 flyer is amazing on features and exactly what many needed.  I am stunned to say the least.  It is amazing and beautiful and the same time...

Thank you all for your hard work and throwing us a bone here to see the fruits of your labor.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 14, 2016, 12:04:31 PM
Shazam!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on September 14, 2016, 12:48:17 PM
Nice ! The inverter is a beauty .
Is the talking Classic going to be a firmware update on the old Classics or is there some hardware change ?

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on September 14, 2016, 03:55:19 PM
First off, I am finally able to get to the forum.  Yeah!!

Second, Robin, you show Tom's inverter with a classic, will it work with the Kid?

Third, do you have measurements for the B-17?

Forth, what happens if I only want three (or any other number of inverters), not five, inverters on the B-17?


Finally, Thanks for the updates.  Looks like fun, wish I could have made it to LAS.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 14, 2016, 03:57:41 PM
Great work !
As for the talking Classic
Please      let us pick a nice Auzi or Kiwi Woman's voice ;)

Last GPS got me so rilled I had to leave that recalculation woman :-)

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 14, 2016, 04:54:01 PM
Last GPS got me so rilled I had to leave that recalculation woman

VT I never imagined you as a Wrong Way Goldfarb.... ;)   ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on September 14, 2016, 05:27:15 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on September 14, 2016, 04:54:01 PM
VT I never imagined you as a Wrong Way Goldfarb.... ;)   ;)


Wow___Heavy HITTER! :o :-\
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 14, 2016, 08:15:44 PM
IT'S ALL IN FUN  ! As i take that way also ..
My new tom-tom has a lovely woman that "would require me to approach left & then turn on to the motorway while advancing speed to 140 kms ".

The GaR--mAn  I left just yelled, " left now dude & hit it , ahh , goofy ya missed ,recalculating ,recalculating!!!

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 14, 2016, 09:00:03 PM
VT,  One brother was recently in Greece and his rental's  GPS continually worked to get him onto the TOLL ROADS!!!  when at the same time he wanted to cruise the country side. 
The GPS voice got him into a marital squabble .... "Oh JUST do as SHE says, we will get there  without being scolded".... Go Back, go back , turn right, etc........ recalculating! recalculating!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on September 14, 2016, 09:03:36 PM
Quote from: Highflyer on September 14, 2016, 03:55:19 PM
First off, I am finally able to get to the forum.  Yeah!!

Second, Robin, you show Tom's inverter with a classic, will it work with the Kid?

Third, do you have measurements for the B-17?

Forth, what happens if I only want three (or any other number of inverters), not five, inverters on the B-17?

1,2,3,4 or 5 modules. Start with 1 and add more as needed. 4 inverter modules and 1 MPPT module etc. Totally customizable.


Finally, Thanks for the updates.  Looks like fun, wish I could have made it to LAS.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 15, 2016, 01:17:54 AM
All Classics are capable of the firmware update. It is a lengthy process, so we may have to do some sort of swap out program?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on September 15, 2016, 01:36:40 AM
Quote from: Robin on September 13, 2016, 12:07:07 AM
To answer the  questions from Tom:
1. The meters are Analog panel meters. We buy them from a supplier in China. Then we take them all apart. Drill holes in the back so we can install our own dual LED printed circuit board for lighting.

Anyone remember the "Mushroom" circuit board pic with "why did you take the thing apart" printed on it?
well......:) This is the untouched pic.....:)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 15, 2016, 10:57:11 AM
I can't remember what picture highflyer is talking about?
We do not have any numbers on the B17 yet. We just got all the boards stuffed two weeks ago and now all the engineers are at the show in Vegas. We still have plenty of work to do.
There is a B17-5 and a B17-3. The -5 has five bays, two AC inputs and two PV/Wind inputs and comes with four SPD's. The -3 is shorter because it has only three bays. One bay can be a charge controller or an inverter module. The other two bays are just for inverters. This unit doesn't come with SPD's. The -3 main frame should be quite a bit less money. You can always connect up a Classic to the -3 if you want all three bays to be inverters. The system is pretty flexible.
People do like the looks of the B17. I always thought they would!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 15, 2016, 11:22:37 AM
Robin, did Ryan manage to get that interview with you done?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on September 15, 2016, 01:43:55 PM
Robin,

The one with Tom's inverter and a classic.  The question was whether or not Tom's inverter will work with the Kid?

I too would like to see Ryan's interview of you please.

Can people add the SPD's to the -3 version of the B-17 easily?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on September 15, 2016, 01:47:14 PM
This topic is smoking!!!!
Love it!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 16, 2016, 04:25:19 AM
Ryan did not get to do the interview. The Alt-E store owner came to our booth and did a couple of recordings though. Amy said they will be up on their website soon.
I still don't understand the question about Tom's inverter working with the Kid? A charge controller charges batteries. An inverter sucks them dry. The two do not need to even know the other exists!
You will be able to add SPD's to the MNB17-3.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on September 16, 2016, 07:45:57 AM
Thanks for the clarification, It looked to me like the inverter and the Classic might have been linked, ie working as a team in the picture.  I wanted to clear that up. 

Glad the -3 will except SPD's.

Looking forward to the videos.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 16, 2016, 12:34:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNQ_V7L8GiM

Will keep an I open  :o

Well said :A charge controller charges batteries. An inverter sucks them dry. The two do not need to even know the other exists!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on September 17, 2016, 02:50:12 PM
Awfully quiet here ...

George:-)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 17, 2016, 05:06:17 PM
VT et al...... look like it should be in this section...  Interviews with Manufacturers...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoHd6hGDqS07IgCYb7JS8UI0FZ-FaFOgl


but it's not there yet...??
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 17, 2016, 07:48:37 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on September 17, 2016, 05:06:17 PM
VT et al...... look like it should be in this section...  Interviews with Manufacturers...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoHd6hGDqS07IgCYb7JS8UI0FZ-FaFOgl


but it's not there yet...??

Probably actually deserves a thread of its own, if you cared to post it?

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 17, 2016, 07:57:49 PM
10-4
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: keithwhare on September 18, 2016, 08:45:04 AM
Modular with potential for redundant inverter modules?

That's pretty cool!

The brochure says "do not take the system down if failed". Does this mean that an inverter module can be added or replaced with the B17 powered up?

I will be interested in seeing the dimensions and weights for the B17 units empty and for the inverter modules.

I assume these output US 120/240 volts?

Keith
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on September 19, 2016, 06:49:57 PM
Quote from: keithwhare on September 18, 2016, 08:45:04 AM
Modular with potential for redundant inverter modules?

Yes!

That's pretty cool!

Agreed!

The brochure says "do not take the system down if failed". Does this mean that an inverter module can be added or replaced with the B17 powered up?

Hot swappable! You betcha!

I will be interested in seeing the dimensions and weights for the B17 units empty and for the inverter modules.

Coming soon

I assume these output US 120/240 volts?

That was the plan, plus possible 50/60Hz switchable. Robin/boB please confirm?

Keith
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on September 19, 2016, 07:39:42 PM
Here are the SPI brochure pics. See Robins reply # 369 page 25 in this thread for the PDF versions. :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 19, 2016, 08:41:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNQ_V7L8GiM

Link IS UP

VT , use a head set , lots of background noise
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on September 19, 2016, 10:18:49 PM
that's really nice, but can you still wire in your classic if you don't have need of the b17 cc? i guess the real question might be if all modules are sold separately? in my case i need the 1 inverter. easily done?of course i need 1 inverter for 24v (differing b model?) so much of the mounts present for the b17 would be redundant. will you have smaller numbers of mounts available for smaller setups, ie fewer module openings? i'm probably jumping too far ahead, but i like my classic and just need the 24v inverter.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 19, 2016, 11:59:42 PM
I seem to remember that Robin said it will be a good while before we might see a 24V model or similar inverter ....  B17 first and it hasn't made the street yet... ie no production units to hold in your hands....
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on September 20, 2016, 12:27:40 AM
Quote from: niel on September 19, 2016, 10:18:49 PM
that's really nice, but can you still wire in your classic if you don't have need of the b17 cc? i guess the real question might be if all modules are sold separately? in my case i need the 1 inverter. easily done?of course i need 1 inverter for 24v (differing b model?) so much of the mounts present for the b17 would be redundant. will you have smaller numbers of mounts available for smaller setups, ie fewer module openings? i'm probably jumping too far ahead, but i like my classic and just need the 24v inverter.

Not sure if I can do a double quote here the easy way...so here it the hard way. Below in bold from Robins post #384.

There is a B17-5 and a B17-3. The -5 has five bays, two AC inputs and two PV/Wind inputs and comes with four SPD's.

The -3 is shorter because it has only three bays. One bay can be a charge controller or an inverter module. The other two bays are just for inverters.

This unit doesn't come with SPD's. The -3 main frame should be quite a bit less money. You can always connect up a Classic to the -3 if you want all three bays to be inverters. The system is pretty flexible.

People do like the looks of the B17. I always thought they would!



Robins key word "flexible". The curtain has only been pulled back from the flagship B17-5. Midnite is going to have many sizes/versions of Inverter/Chargers etc. Classic owners will not be required to buy the modular MPPT CC's.

It's all mix and match based on what you already have and what you want or need! :) Stay tuned! I'm certain Midnite will be turning loose more detailed info soon.

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 20, 2016, 08:03:17 AM
Quote from: onanparts on September 20, 2016, 12:27:40 AM


Robins key word "flexible". The curtain has only been pulled back from the flagship B17-5. Midnite is going to have many sizes/versions of Inverter/Chargers etc. Classic owners will not be required to buy the modular MPPT CC's.

It's all mix and match based on what you already have and what you want or need! :) Stay tuned! I'm certain Midnite will be turning loose more detailed info soon.

A Classic or any other charge controller [I think] should be able to connect directly to the battery pack stand alone. Might affect state of charge seen by the B-17 system or something?

If Robin says "flexible", I expect it it will be quite flexible?

Just from here.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: b4solar on September 20, 2016, 10:24:53 AM
The big B-17 will likely only support 48V. 24V will likely be in a smaller package around four years from today. There's enough of good DC to DC step down converters available that most systems will likely go to 48V anyway.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on September 20, 2016, 10:42:58 PM
Quote from: CDN-VT on September 19, 2016, 08:41:23 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNQ_V7L8GiM

Link IS UP

VT  ...

Hi VT,  Thanks for posting the Link.    Very interesting!   Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on September 21, 2016, 01:03:03 AM
Quote from: b4solar on September 20, 2016, 10:24:53 AM
The big B-17 will likely only support 48V. 24V will likely be in a smaller package around four years from today. There's enough of good D.C. TDC step down converters available that most systems will likely go to 48V anyway.

Robin  Posted that a 24Vdc is also in the works down the road.
No worries Vic ..
It's all for tomorrow

VT

The attached preliminary brochure is all that exists at the moment.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 28, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
24 v will be a problem with the limitation on module size twice the current means more transistors and twice the current.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 28, 2016, 02:35:45 PM
Quote from: Robin on September 28, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
24 v will be a problem with the limitation on module size twice the current means more transistors and twice the current.

Yeah, lots of "fine print" in the laws of physics when herding electrons. :(

Its all in good fun, tho.

Appreciate the pics and other tidbits of info. Looking sweet.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 28, 2016, 03:14:47 PM
Quote from: Robin on September 28, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
24 v will be a problem with the limitation on module size twice the current means more transistors and twice the current.

Robin, Tom, not sure I understand how half the voltage means twice the current... 

I understand that being the case  if the module output remains the same  but why does the output have to be the same per module? 

Why not half the module out put?

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on September 28, 2016, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on September 28, 2016, 03:14:47 PM
Quote from: Robin on September 28, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
24 v will be a problem with the limitation on module size twice the current means more transistors and twice the current.

Robin, Tom, not sure I understand how half the voltage means twice the current... 

I understand that being the case  if the module output remains the same  but why does the output have to be the same per module? 



Why not half the module out put?

Well, good point on the half power modules. Not sure how it would pan out in hardware?

The half the voltage twice the current bit, as you apparently already know,  is Watts Law. Power equals current times volts for those who may not know.
(http://jdfinley.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/OhmsLaw.jpg)
Anyway, that is my arm chair input.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on September 30, 2016, 01:37:34 AM
i think what is being asked is, why not have the modules output 1kw instead of 2kw for 24vdc input? of course if there's room for a few more fets then go to 1.2kw or whatever. this could expand to say 2 or 3 modules rather than 5 as it becomes more appealing to go to 48v at some point. being such a small version it could be a smaller plane designation such as the spitfire aka p51 or something similar.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 30, 2016, 02:11:04 AM
Niel, you got the first part right and your idea of say 3 or 4 modules would overlap a single and double 2kw 48V modules.... makes sense to me...  .... Most makers have those types of overlaps in the 3 common voltage categories 12, 24 & 48
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on October 06, 2016, 02:25:08 PM
boB hard at work on the B17 program. :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on October 07, 2016, 01:32:11 PM
Here is a video about their new wind grid tie inverter
https://youtu.be/oQNVoO9OriA
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on October 07, 2016, 03:20:23 PM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on October 07, 2016, 01:32:11 PM
Here is a video about their new wind grid tie inverter
https://youtu.be/oQNVoO9OriA

A Midnite Solar Lionel Train set under the tree for Christmas! I'd even settle for a Beta MS Lionel Train set! :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on October 07, 2016, 10:52:55 PM
Quote from: onanparts on October 07, 2016, 03:20:23 PM
A Midnite Solar Lionel Train set under the tree for Christmas! I'd even settle for a Beta MS Lionel Train set! :)

So not one of the pink for girls special Lion Train sets?  Maybe the MS inverter has a small train guard figure with red flag pop out from a secret door and push the power button when an overload occurs

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 23, 2016, 10:40:30 PM
I am sure we will look at a 24V unit, but for the output power, it will be far more expensive than a 48V unit. Same cost, but half the power? We will be doing different battery based inverters though. Something more along the lines of a Magnum or OutBack FX. It won't be modular, but it can be powerful. For those of you that really want a 24V B17, I am sure we can cook something up. Even if it is just for forum guys and gals.
Give us a chance to get the 48V unit in production though.
Thanks,
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on October 23, 2016, 11:06:50 PM
Give us a chance to get the 48V unit in production though.

+1....

Do you have a release date for the production units yet Robin?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 24, 2016, 02:59:16 PM
No release date yet. We are still working on the design.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on October 24, 2016, 03:53:00 PM
Any idea of pricing at the moment? :o ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 24, 2016, 06:29:50 PM
We are working on all the different bills of materials. I need those updated before it is possible to even venture a guess. I do expect to have an idea before too long though. It will be published here. This is not a cheap inverter though.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on October 26, 2016, 09:01:15 PM
Quote from: Robin on October 24, 2016, 06:29:50 PM
We are working on all the different bills of materials. I need those updated before it is possible to even venture a guess. I do expect to have an idea before too long though. It will be published here. This is not a cheap inverter though.

Be nice if some beta units are going to be available if it was before Jan 1 for solar tax credit purposes.

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 26, 2016, 09:28:19 PM
Sorry, but we will not have anything available for beta testing until 2017. This is a very complicated product. We have many engineers working on the various different parts, but it just won't be ready that quick.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on October 28, 2016, 06:35:23 AM
robin, maybe it will be a good idea to address the other units you plan to manufacture rather than the 24v b17, especially if it's to be the same cost as the 48v version. i certainly don't need anything that size unless i hit the lottery. i would like something to take the place of my mms 1012, but would like 24v and it's not to be from magnum as these things have not been reliable to me. maybe it's just this model, but faulting is a problem with them and i want something reliable that i know you guys would produce. the outbacks are too pricey and i don't need 2500w as 1 to 1.5kw is fine by me, but used in a backups fashion with built in versatile charging ability. that is, one shouldn't have to have a remote to use it with agm batteries or to have more control over the charger.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 28, 2016, 07:14:13 PM
Take a look at the attached photo of Andy's inverter. This a 750 watt wind grid tie inverter. Andy will also make a solar version that looks identical. Then we will make a 1000W battery based grid tieable inverter in the same case. That one may have more buttons. Hard to do much with only three buttons. I hadn't thought about a 24V version, but hey, why not? This will be stackable, so if 1000W (or so) isn't large enouogh, just buy another one. All three of these inverters can work together in an AC coupled mode. You will have blue tooth on all of them. We may even be able to add wi-fi as an option? No remote will be required, but I do hope we at least make it an option for the battery based unit. That way it may be able to talk to you like the Classic is learning to do. We do have talking Classics in engineering now, but they are not finished. Voice does take a long time as it is a lot of work. I am hopeful that future talking units can benefit from the Classic development.
Did I answer your questions?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 28, 2016, 07:18:14 PM
Here is a shot of the insides. As you can see, this inverter design is well on its way.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on October 29, 2016, 12:13:24 PM
Robin;

Thanks for the share of the inverter porn! :) She is a sweet looking little unit.

You guys sure are not slacking off on the new product development there!

Been planning a system around The B17 awhile now.

Only missing parts are the inverter and batteries.

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 29, 2016, 04:04:26 PM
Tom, I have not shown all our engineering projects. We have a unix based comm box in the works as well as a very inexpensive rapid shutdown system. Oh yeah, there is a 1500 watt 120/240version of Andy's inverters too. All these projects are fully staffed. There are a few other products I want to squeeze in also. Among them are a couple more large MPPT controllers and a 4000 watt Magnum or FX style inverter. This new style will be based on the B17 design, but will not be modular. It will not have a bunch of bells and whistles. IT will just be a basic workhouse. I expect it to be very inexpensive.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on October 30, 2016, 12:41:37 AM
Quote from: Robin on October 29, 2016, 04:04:26 PM
Tom, I have not shown all our engineering projects. We have a unix based comm box in the works as well as a very inexpensive rapid shutdown system. Oh yeah, there is a 1500 watt 120/240version of Andy's inverters too. All these projects are fully staffed. There are a few other products I want to squeeze in also. Among them are a couple more large MPPT controllers and a 4000 watt Magnum or FX style inverter. This new style will be based on the B17 design, but will not be modular. It will not have a bunch of bells and whistles. IT will just be a basic workhouse. I expect it to be very inexpensive.

Kewl
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on November 01, 2016, 07:15:32 AM
robin, yup that sounds like the 1kw battery backed gt unit might fit the bill. how versatile would the charging circuit be as i would like to customize the charge current and voltage a bit? of course i'd like 24v as well. would this be mountable on the epanel i have for the mms 1012 or would i need a new face for it or new epanel altogether? projected availability and price area? any and all other possible incidental details?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 01, 2016, 12:34:24 PM
Niel, We haven't started the mechanical layout of this unit yet. All I know is that I want it to be in the same case as Andy's inverter. That will probably happen.
None of the features have been decided yet, but I sure want the charging parameters fully adjustable. How do we accomplish this? Probably through the LCD window with capacitive touch buttons. The question is how many buttons can we fit on that clear panel? We have not yet looked at this. We may have to have the ability to connect up our MNGP, but that just adds cost.
I do not know just how this will interface with an E-Panel? Haven't given it any though yet, but I doubt it will fit on your Magnum panel. I want to see if we can reduce cost on this necessary box. Don't know if we can though?
We have no idea when this will be available or at what cost. Bob is working on the B17 at the moment. Once that is done, we can spin off a couple more inverter designs based on the B17. Bob is making good progress though.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 01, 2016, 09:20:50 PM
Robin,  dumb idea??  If the unit will have Blue-Tooth what about an Android based clone ( like Graeme's Android version) of the MN Local App, for setting the charge parameters... 
Cripes these days  just about everyone has an Android  based  Tablet or smart phone, though I still resist.... we don't have a good relationship.... yet  >:(
(Shades of the Samsung Note7 burning in my hands just went through my warped mind :o ::) )

Is that possible without WiFi?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 01, 2016, 09:45:37 PM
The Blue tooth app that Matt is designing for the Android will allow full tailoring of battery charge parameters. This is not just a one way status app.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 01, 2016, 10:02:53 PM
Great!
thanks for the update Robin.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on November 02, 2016, 12:41:13 AM
Quote from: Robin on November 01, 2016, 09:45:37 PM
The Blue tooth app that Matt is designing for the Android will allow full tailoring of battery charge parameters. This is not just a one way status app.

HAVE a usb BT plug , Add on if needed .
As with all extras are just a plug point .
USB , Miniusb , Micro usb , Fire wire etc.

SOME don't like all the micro / electrical waves floating all over .

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ralph day on November 02, 2016, 08:33:39 AM
I think a neutrino just went right through you Nigel.  Not to mention the radio waves (am, fm, tv etc etc) that have been passing through us all for our entire lives.  Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to notice :-\ ;D

Ralph
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on November 02, 2016, 09:45:58 PM
Im trying to get rid of "Dirty Electricity "
Ralph , there are many sites to read of bombardment of RF and the effects . I live with one & when we moved here (ranch & no cell or cable ,OTA tv , & power only _Was Friggin GREAT )Now the city folk from Kanda has moved over to the retirement capital of CDN, Here !!! & they brought all the city BS with it.. We were once all farmers in the 70's when I bought & a village of 300 folks .
GONE , 4 Cell towers & they want 3 more ,smart meters with 3 RF transmitters in each .
Info : Three Antennas Inside a Smart Meter
An Investigation of Radiofrequency Fields
Associated with the Itron Smart Meter
http://heartland.org/sites/default/files/sites/all/modules/custom/heartland_migration/files/pdfs/29676.pdf
page 34

I put in a wireless router many years ago when I got my first Panasonic toughbook & then picked up a LCD new flat screen tv Digital  to replace the OTA flat-screen one , that was a stupid TV , it would always babble on the wireless & my WIFE went / started going wonky . I was getting cold shoulders to being a jerk , I notice she was getting tired & ill or off all the time & I lost my wife as I knew her. (ILL  as in dead tired & the headache )  I pulled the Wireless router & hardwired the ranch , sold off the stupid TV & bought a regular LED with 2 watts Idle & 34 running 50" one .
Since then Were all back to normal or as it was before .
I didn't think this was possible & she was jerking me , Just for a test , 8 months after I put the wireless in my garage & used my hard wired laptop but turned off the LAN part & used the wireless in the toughbook at my office desk . Say 2 weeks & im getting close to the dog house again & she is not sleeping well & bitchy .

I didn't let on that I did that , it was for me to see if it was a hoax or real .
So were all hardwired here & the cordless phone lives outside in the garden shed & used outside etc.

Im eating well again .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMasG5EQ340

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 02, 2016, 11:58:08 PM
So, I think you are saying that some people do not want the Blue tooth enabled all the time? If people are fearful of a blue tooth that can put out only a few milli-watts, wouldn't they be a lot more bothered from the 750 watt switching power supply called an inverter that the blue tooth is attached to?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on November 03, 2016, 01:06:02 AM
Robin , This RF stuff I don't know !! But I do see the results of it from more than just my wife.

Cell phones to ears , wearing a Blue tooth ear device every day for a phone call is just goofy in my eyes .

thalidomide babies,tobacco/smokes,Oxycontin given out as skittles & speed as a weight loss drug in the 60's ,,
YA we know it all !!!

My EZURiO  TDK Bluetooth USB Adaptor reaches 300 feet from my laptop , Highly encrypted and we have 5 of them working on different machines / laptops  at the same time .AME techs reading & setting up the fling wings . MY zone of work .

IM just saying , OPTIONS of a few jacks to plug in extras if needed & required . Like the WBjr is now sold as an option .
B17 should have the options of jacks in USB 's  to add if required . or just hardwired ..

Cell phones were out in the 80s & i had one ,the 6441 unit sold in Vancouver & it was recalled due to 5 watt outputs ect. Prior to that I have a phone you called up repeaters.
It was a car style so i never had the full RF . I drop out  of the cell / constant at your call in 1999 & just phone the ranch & leave a message .. Im working on something & you might be next in line.

I wouldn't have it automatically installed , hospitals get overboard on cell phones on visitors when all the staff are walking zombies on theirs behind doors  .. Been Cell free since 1999 & better.


VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on November 03, 2016, 06:58:46 AM
Robin,

    Another vote for making the RF communications optional!  We have had several customers that had health concerns with RF communications.  A related issue is that we have had so much trouble recently with wi-fi interfaces that we are now specifying a hardwired ethernet connection to a customer router for all new solar systems that use web-based monitoring.  The service calls for dealing with wi-fi problems as customers (and neighbors), install new wireless web stuff has been getting totally out of hand.

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on November 03, 2016, 08:05:50 AM
WRT Bluetooth and RF concerns.

A simple jumper to disable it might be a solution?

Personally, I am not convinced it is a hazard but, then I have a herd of wireless devices here from phones and computers to routers, garage door openers and doorbells.

Some folks just love to see the sky falling.

If you are afraid of wireless devices then don't buy or use them! Sadly for those folks, RF is everywhere and you can't avoid it unless you live in a Faraday cage like an RF "Bubble Boy".

Just opinions and likely not shared by anyone.

I am slightly more concerned with what idiot we will end up with here in the White House. Not looking forward to either a Socialist or a Robber Baron in that role.

How 'bout those Cubs!

Its all good, at least right now.

At some point "Feature Bloat" can kill any good product. I just want my phone to make phone calls. Don't get me stated on equipment that talks. ::)

I ramble.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on November 03, 2016, 11:26:21 AM
Quote from: Robin on November 02, 2016, 11:58:08 PM
So, I think you are saying that some people do not want the Blue tooth enabled all the time? If people are fearful of a blue tooth that can put out only a few milli-watts, wouldn't they be a lot more bothered from the 750 watt switching power supply called an inverter that the blue tooth is attached to?

You hit the nail on the head there Robin !
But RF paranoia does not have reason.
There are people who spend hundreds of dollars  for a few capacitors and resistors to plug into their outlet thinking it will clean up their "dirty power" .   The people who sell them those devices smile all the way to the bank.

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on November 03, 2016, 01:10:50 PM
Quote from: TomW on November 03, 2016, 08:05:50 AM
.....If you are afraid of wireless devices then don't buy or use them! Sadly for those folks, RF is everywhere and you can't avoid it unless you live in a Faraday cage like an RF "Bubble Boy"....

And there are some folk off-grid to be away from the wireless stuff.  Different frequencies, do different things,
60hz is great for power transmission, but you need 2.4Ghz to nuke popcorn (and wipe out the neighborhood wi-fi)
Cell phones used to be 900 Mhz but now are somewhere else
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on November 03, 2016, 02:07:59 PM
And as an Avid ham radio guy the less crap stuff I have sending out RF the happier I am. I fully agree just like my iPhone the blue tooth or wifi needs the ability to be disabled
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on November 03, 2016, 10:02:56 PM
In my  .MIL time , The Inuit would stand in front of the DEW lines paraolic shape radar reflector to warm up !!
60-1977 era & they were sperm / egg dead . T uktoyaktuk
Link has now DEW now ,Im old : https://www.google.com/search?q=tuktoyaktuk&biw=1280&bih=654&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjS9bytgI7QAhXox1QKHZtvAMEQsAQIJw (https://www.google.com/search?q=tuktoyaktuk&biw=1280&bih=654&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjS9bytgI7QAhXox1QKHZtvAMEQsAQIJw)

Of course I tell the dentist to keep the lead shield off during teeth exams ,, CUZ I AM  MAN & can take it !!!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on November 05, 2016, 01:07:47 AM
rf fears aside it's still good to hardwire stuff. rf pollution can even play havoc with stuff for those who aren't worried about rf tin foil hat stuff, but a few milliwatts won't do anything harmful unless the harmonics do something. i don't mind the bluetooth, but i haven't any cell phones or notebooks to use with it either. i don't have a fear of them, but i just don't use phones enough to justify it and notebooks are too small for these eyes to see that well. my pc uses a 32 inch screen. when that's not enough i use ctrl +.

anyway, maybe you'll find a way around the button issues and i don't mind the housing the inverter will be in if maybe you can build an adapter plate that'll bolt onto the old inverter holes and allow the new inverter to also bolt up to the adapter. it's just not feasible to totally revamp to a new epanel that would work with it. a full new door is possible too, but more work and expense. in fact, i'm surprised you didn't go that route in the first place so that doors wouldn't be so different. that way only a few standard doors that would have the proper adapters that'll work with them. simply put, change of adapter and not the door.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 05, 2016, 02:13:42 AM
Niel, I adapted a 'custom ' door with a sheet of Lexan that covered all the OB holes and I bolted a non 'fitting' inverter to mount on the  customized door....only a few bucks for the Lexan...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 07, 2016, 09:40:22 AM
I hear you all loud and clear! The blue tooth in Andy's inverter was put there because it was that or nothing due to cost. Blue tooth is about $5.00 in parts. Wi-Fi and Ethernet are twice that. We felt that some form of communications was desired so BT won out. We will make it so it can be disabled. For those of you that want the ultimate in communications, our upcoming Linux Comm box has Wi-FI and BT standard as well as Ethernet and a bunch of USB ports etc.

I do wish someone would get to the bottom of RF and health.
Cancer is taking its toll on my immediate family.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on November 07, 2016, 01:56:06 PM
Quote from: Robin on November 07, 2016, 09:40:22 AM

I do wish someone would get to the bottom of RF and health.
Cancer is taking its toll on my immediate family.
Robin;

That is a hard thing to watch.

Lots of survivors these days like my brother in law who never gave up even when he was at his worst. 100% recovery so far. The cure was pretty nasty but any fight you walk away from is a good fight.


Best of wishes to your relatives who are in the fight of their lives.

Tom

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 12, 2016, 02:04:16 AM
boB has been hording all the Inverter cake but maybe Some Inverter Pie will be available next year?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Powerplay on November 12, 2016, 01:18:57 PM
QuoteOf course I tell the dentist to keep the lead shield off during teeth exams ,, CUZ I AM  MAN & can take it !!!

I don't let them X-ray my head ever since I was a little baby Physicist.  They say it is less than exposure from a sunny day (according to the X-ray machine salesman).  I say, nobody gets to irradiate me for profit.  My IQ is already down 10-15 pts from my neighbors mindlessly spraying Agent Orange (by another trade name) on their grass 5-6 times a year.  Can't afford to loose any more.   ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Powerplay on November 13, 2016, 02:33:07 PM
My quote
QuoteIs a JOKE .

Yes, I think most will get what you're saying.  I serious, however, about not letting them X-ray me.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on November 13, 2016, 11:33:11 PM
Quote from: Powerplay on November 13, 2016, 02:33:07 PM
My quote
QuoteIs a JOKE .

Yes, I think most will get what you're saying.  I serious, however, about not letting them X-ray me.

Thanks .
They stuffed in Mercury into my teeth years ago plus ,we KNOW SQUAT .


The lack of real info since the media is no longer free to report is the problem .
I see it in Canada & the CBC that I PAY FOR is stifled due to the BS.
Was Cancer a word or a death in the 1800's? as it is today .
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: laszlo on November 14, 2016, 03:27:29 AM
To get back to the new inverters topic:

MN product dev, can we please get the MN GT inverters to honor the convention set up by Magnum PAE inverters? The Magnum PAE (battery based)  inverters raise the grid frequency when the batteries are full, giving the signal to other GT inverters on the grid to stop producing power.  Please refer to http://pdf.wholesalesolar.com/inverter%20pdf%20folder/MagnumACcoupling.pdf for additional info. So the idea would be to get the proposed MN  GT inverters to honor this.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Powerplay on November 15, 2016, 08:18:59 PM
QuotePlease refer to for additional info. So the idea would be to get the proposed MN  GT inverters to honor this.

Just some BG info.  Are your MS4448PAE stacked on the same battery?  Does MagnaSine require stacked inverters to be on the same bank or just recommend?  Is their protocol capable of combining different inverters on different banks?  Just thinking around not wanting to get locked into a given bettery (or maybe inverter) tech.  So far it looks a little restrictive to me.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: laszlo on November 16, 2016, 12:09:18 PM
As clarification,  I am talking about what is called "a/c coupling". The new inverters by Midnite should honor all existing in-band  signaling protocols for a/c coupling.  I would like confirmation from Midnite that this will be the case in the new inverter products but have not seen posts from boB or other engineers recently -- is everything OK?

A slightly different concept, stacking of inverters can be accomplished by a/c coupling (in-band) or out-of-band. Magnum for example uses an out-of-band protocol for stacking  implemented by means of  a product  they call "router"  than can stack up to 4 PAE inverters. The Magnum router( "RTR" ) uses ethernet cables to network the stacked inverters together.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Powerplay on November 16, 2016, 04:27:43 PM
Got it.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 18, 2016, 03:53:15 AM
While on topic what is the radiation, if any, leaked by the new inverter, has this been tested?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on November 19, 2016, 01:42:43 AM
any inverter will have a tad of rf leakage, but even the worst of them couldn't pose a threat in 5000 years.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on November 19, 2016, 02:54:15 AM
I also hope for low RFI, but the motivation for me is that I'm a ham.  I still remember the original PVPowered inverters that wiped out the AM broadcast band for a couple of blocks in all directions :)

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on November 19, 2016, 07:04:57 AM
Quote from: bailey on November 19, 2016, 02:54:15 AM
I still remember the original PVPowered inverters that wiped out the AM broadcast band for a couple of blocks in all directions :)

You say that like it is a Bad Thing [tm]  :o
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 20, 2016, 12:50:15 AM
Quote from: bailey on November 19, 2016, 02:54:15 AM
I also hope for low RFI, but the motivation for me is that I'm a ham.  I still remember the original PVPowered inverters that wiped out the AM broadcast band for a couple of blocks in all directions :)

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC

There are many engineers at MS that are Hams. At least 3+ are involved with the new Inverters. I'll refer to boB as the lead Engineer since he is paid the least...:) His favorite mode is CW...while mobile! Since active hams are actively designing them the RFI/EMI should be very low. If not they all get busted down to Novice!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 20, 2016, 03:47:58 AM
Quote from: onanparts on November 20, 2016, 12:50:15 AM
There are many engineers at MS that are Hams. At least 3+ are involved with the new Inverters. 
I didn't think there were too many Hams left. Something about younger generations being more interested in Xbox etc.
Have not worked with any Hams but have worked with plenty of Turkeys  ???
ZL1UZC
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on November 20, 2016, 08:46:54 AM
Quote from: dgd on November 20, 2016, 03:47:58 AM
I didn't think there were too many Hams left. Something about younger generations being more interested in Xbox etc.
Have not worked with any Hams but have worked with plenty of Turkeys  ???
ZL1UZC

One of the many HAMs on here is HalfCrazy (Ryan).

I am as well and neither of us are exactly "kids". Ryan may well be the youngest HAM I know personally. :o

Tom

KD0YTD
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on November 21, 2016, 05:49:00 AM
Quote from: dgd on November 20, 2016, 03:47:58 AM
Quote from: onanparts on November 20, 2016, 12:50:15 AM
There are many engineers at MS that are Hams. At least 3+ are involved with the new Inverters. 
I didn't think there were too many Hams left. Something about younger generations being more interested in Xbox etc.
Have not worked with any Hams but have worked with plenty of Turkeys  ???
ZL1UZC

Actually 2 weekends ago I got to sing the general ticket for a 7 year old, that was pretty cool!!

Also MidNite has its own amateur radio club now and most all of the engineers are now licensed. As has been pointed out RFI/EMI has and will always be one of our big concerns and we will do all we can do to make them as quite as possible
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on November 21, 2016, 10:07:12 AM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on November 21, 2016, 05:49:00 AM


Actually 2 weekends ago I got to sing the general ticket for a 7 year old, that was pretty cool!!

Also MidNite has its own amateur radio club now and most all of the engineers are now licensed. As has been pointed out RFI/EMI has and will always be one of our big concerns and we will do all we can do to make them as quite as possible

Ha ha - I bet you were singing as you signed the exam !

Yeah there are lots of hams out here - the original hackers hands on tinkerers do it  your self electronics geeks .
Larry WT9M
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 21, 2016, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: onanparts on November 20, 2016, 12:50:15 AM
... I'll refer to boB as the lead Engineer since he is paid the least...:) His favorite mode is CW...while mobile! 

Now that conjures all sorts of weirdness.
He has an automatic Honda car and his left foot does a tap dance on a floor installed cw key....
Or he has a Classic with voice recognition firmware in  the Honda so as he sings... Doo Wah Diddy Diddy Dum Diddy Do, its converted to Aux1 relay pulses that do the keying...

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on November 22, 2016, 03:22:58 AM
Speaking of EMI issues, see the attached photo for the array component of a fun off-grid system we did a couple of years ago :)

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on November 22, 2016, 08:47:33 AM
Quote from: bailey on November 22, 2016, 03:22:58 AM
Speaking of EMI issues, see the attached photo for the array component of a fun off-grid system we did a couple of years ago :)

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.

At risk of going further off topic.

That sure looks like a great way to knock your production in the head. Looks like the equivalent of 10% or 15% shading?

Not sure why they did it? Hail?

Just curious.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on November 22, 2016, 10:43:53 PM
Quote from: bailey on November 22, 2016, 03:22:58 AM
Speaking of EMI issues, see the attached photo for the array component of a fun off-grid system we did a couple of years ago :)

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.

Must cut the harvest by 50% or more !

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on November 23, 2016, 08:38:50 AM
Quote from: dgd on November 21, 2016, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: onanparts on November 20, 2016, 12:50:15 AM
... I'll refer to boB as the lead Engineer since he is paid the least...:) His favorite mode is CW...while mobile! 

Now that conjures all sorts of weirdness.
He has an automatic Honda car and his left foot does a tap dance on a floor installed cw key....
Or he has a Classic with voice recognition firmware in  the Honda so as he sings... Doo Wah Diddy Diddy Dum Diddy Do, its converted to Aux1 relay pulses that do the keying...

dgd

UG you just gave him some ideas  :o

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on November 23, 2016, 09:21:10 AM
Woohoo! Curious if CW would qualify as texting while driving in states where it is not only kind of dumb but illegal? :o

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on November 24, 2016, 03:30:24 AM
i don't think they made a code key illegal. one does not have to look at it to bang out dots and dashes, but i wouldn't want to drive while doing it myself.
n3ghx
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on November 24, 2016, 05:12:04 AM
Maybe the new inverter could have a small speaker built in and a jack for a CW key. Then setup and configuartion info could be keyed in and the appropriate code returned via the speaker, all morse code of course.
What an excellent security feature
dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on November 24, 2016, 06:09:53 AM
The shielded solar array was done for a local physicist and had a roughly 15% reduced solar harvest over a non-shielded equivalent (good guess Tom!)  The whole system including the array was built inside a single Faraday cage and the design also included both point and distributed low pass electrical filtering to slow down fast transient edges enough that they can be successfully clipped.

The motivation was to survive stuff like major solar flares (read up on the Carrington Event of 1859 for an example of the breed).  The owner made the case for the extra complexity by pointing out that depending on your assumptions, recent research puts the chances of him getting hit by something like this as significantly greater than the odds of him suffering a structure fire (according to NFPA statistics).  And yet, like most of us, he carries fire insurance for his home...

The project was interesting for both the electrical and mechanical challenges involved in putting it together.  I consider off-grid system design to be more "fun" than pure grid-tie, and this was even better!  One side effect of the project is that everyone that worked on it became significantly more motivated to at least add MidNite SPD's to our personal solar systems, even if none of us has yet gone whole Faraday hog :)

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on November 24, 2016, 03:53:50 PM
bailey,
i doubt the screen spacing would need to be so closely spaced even for a carrington event. at what spacing would be best that one could get away with to allow for less shading is a good question though. my thoughts would be double the current spacing. another thing is you could go with smaller wires to also lessen the shading impact and it won't lessen the protection. we had a few good discussions years ago on naws about this stuff.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on November 24, 2016, 11:13:00 PM
Quote from: bailey on November 24, 2016, 06:09:53 AM
The shielded solar array was done for a local physicist and had a roughly 15% reduced solar harvest over a non-shielded equivalent (good guess Tom!)  The whole system including the array was built inside a single Faraday cage and the design also included both point and distributed low pass electrical filtering to slow down fast transient edges enough that they can be successfully clipped.

The motivation was to survive stuff like major solar flares (read up on the Carrington Event of 1859 for an example of the breed).  The owner made the case for the extra complexity by pointing out that depending on your assumptions, recent research puts the chances of him getting hit by something like this as significantly greater than the odds of him suffering a structure fire (according to NFPA statistics).  And yet, like most of us, he carries fire insurance for his home...

The project was interesting for both the electrical and mechanical challenges involved in putting it together.  I consider off-grid system design to be more "fun" than pure grid-tie, and this was even better!  One side effect of the project is that everyone that worked on it became significantly more motivated to at least add MidNite SPD's to our personal solar systems, even if none of us has yet gone whole Faraday hog :)

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.

@ Kirk Bailey

15% , wow bettery than I thought .
Good one .
Here U tube ,10 seg on emp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wf6NOtVNM4

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on November 25, 2016, 02:29:07 AM
As far as the screen, the owner/physicist specified the material and spacing, with some give&take based on what was commercially available.

As you might guess the mechanical/materials issues were a big part of the challenge.  And we have learned a few things since it was installed, such as that small leaves like to get between the screen and the modules and the array thus requires periodic cleaning.

Fortunately, we had a very creative screen guy as a sub on the job and that made all the difference in the world.

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 26, 2016, 07:44:20 PM
was just looking at the  REDFLOW site and they now have several inverters that will work for their power 'cells',...   https://www.zcell.com/inverters.php

BUT no  MidNite in the list so far...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mtdoc on December 13, 2016, 05:48:26 PM
I realize this inverter is still a ways out from production but I sure hope it is available for the 2017 installation season.  I really want it for my new system install this summer.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on December 13, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
mtdoc, ya it has been very quiet  on the western front these days... fingers crossed... :D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 14, 2016, 04:33:42 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on December 13, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
mtdoc, ya it has been very quiet  on the western front these days... fingers crossed... :D

I'm heading up North to Midnite sometime before Christmas for a look see on what's happening so far. Will report what I can when I can.  :)

As the Inverter turns....
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on December 14, 2016, 08:12:17 PM
OMG it's Death Star V

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 15, 2016, 03:38:06 AM
naw, revenge of helmet head.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on December 17, 2016, 03:41:17 PM
Yup, West a power bill death star at that! :o ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on December 18, 2016, 08:00:33 AM
The corners make it more of a Death Star / Borg hybrid?

The Borg make the Death Star look like BB gun compared to an A-10 Warthog! :o

Just cuz I watch way too much SciFi stuff.

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 23, 2016, 12:59:19 AM
As promised....some pics of the B-17 project... :) Breaker panel and a look inside the bombay section.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 23, 2016, 01:17:50 AM
These are a couple of the MPPT CC modules. A 300 VDC module and a 600 VDC module. One complete and the other partially assembled. The hardware is basically done on these. Mario and his cast of thousands are now focused on the firmware/software end. This is the real deal, it's all coming together very nicely!  :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 23, 2016, 07:12:54 AM
nice.

2 comments;
1 i believe i see an open mov in the bottom of the 3rd pic. when they pop they can damage things nearby.
2 ribbon cables, although convenient and cheap for a manufacturer, i've had bad luck with. especially the connectors. i feel these will be issues down the road for you.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on December 23, 2016, 12:46:48 PM
Quote from: niel on December 23, 2016, 07:12:54 AM
nice.

2 comments;
1 i believe i see an open mov in the bottom of the 3rd pic. when they pop they can damage things nearby.
2 ribbon cables, although convenient and cheap for a manufacturer, i've had bad luck with. especially the connectors. i feel these will be issues down the road for you.

Keep in mind "hardware is basically done". These are still pre production MPPT CC modules undergoing extensive testing, tweaking, minor changes etc.

Can't speak for MS on the use of ribbon cables but I've never had any issues with them in computers, Ham radios etc. Some of my transceivers have a ton of them!  :) Many are mobile units 20-30+ years old.

Although extremely biased... ;D I'm not a MS employee, what you see posted picture wise by me is what anyone will see if they stop in for a visit at MS.  :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 24, 2016, 02:03:43 AM
as a matter of fact, it was in ham radio stuff that i had the problems and both were icoms. one was an ic-32at and the ribbon cable broke. there wasn't much cable to open up the radio to work on it and the other half stressed that cable until it broke. i was modifying it when this happened.

the other radio i believe was an a dual bander and i've forgot the model, but it developed a noisy volume control and i had to take the front of it off to reach it to spray the pot. the connections were so flimsy that the 28? wire ribbon was able to move side to side and shorted out the radio no matter how careful i was being. it was a very cheap connection and it's obvious it wasn't intended to be taken apart by the typical end user. later that year they came out with a model with a removeable front face. i loved both radios and ribbons were the death of both of them.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on December 24, 2016, 11:39:52 AM
Quote from: niel on December 24, 2016, 02:03:43 AM
as a matter of fact, it was in ham radio stuff that i had the problems and both were icoms. one was an ic-32at and the ribbon cable broke. there wasn't much cable to open up the radio to work on it and the other half stressed that cable until it broke. i was modifying it when this happened.

the other radio i believe was an a dual bander and i've forgot the model, but it developed a noisy volume control and i had to take the front of it off to reach it to spray the pot. the connections were so flimsy that the 28? wire ribbon was able to move side to side and shorted out the radio no matter how careful i was being. it was a very cheap connection and it's obvious it wasn't intended to be taken apart by the typical end user. later that year they came out with a model with a removeable front face. i loved both radios and ribbons were the death of both of them.

I also had an Icom HT that the ribbon cable broke - but there is a difference between one with the ends soldered directly to the circuit board on one end and one with connectors on both ends. I am sure Midnite will engineer them to be durable. They have to with their warranty !

I gave my broken HT to a friend and he was able to repair it and documented that here
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~timc/e/w21at.html

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: niel on December 25, 2016, 09:38:54 AM
i did attempt to solder new wire in, but was unsuccessful as the 32at had no connectors either. it was the other icom that was a dual band mobile that had the flimsy connectors. i have never seen anything so cheap in my life. it was nearly impossible to line up all of the connections right and the radio blew. i haven't bought an icom since.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: kitestrings on January 01, 2017, 06:00:32 PM
Robin et all,

Looks interesting.  I confess I haven't followed this post much, but I thought you might be interested to know that the website from Home Power doesn't seem to work:

www.midnitesolar.com/MNB17 (http://www.midnitesolar.com/MNB17)

~ks
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: TomW on January 02, 2017, 10:32:40 AM
~ks

I poked Ryan with this. Hopefully he can sort it out.

Not wise to have a new Flagship product link from a popular site  folks can't get to.

Appreciate the heads up!

Tom
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Halfcrazy on January 02, 2017, 11:01:44 AM
I have passed this on to my web guru
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on January 02, 2017, 07:45:37 PM
Nice to see the integrated MPPT modules, the one box B17 will do everything concept.
What about a nice grunty PWM only solar controller 200 to 300A at 12,24,48,120 volts?  I can see the usefulness of MPPT for wind turbine and water turbine systems but with the ever lowering cost of PVs and their easy availability there is a valid design approach  of just maxing out the number of PVs and PWM charging batteries and not be concerned about power point tracking.

dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: dgd on January 02, 2017, 09:41:22 PM
Since this appears to be a modular plug in Chassic for various modules I was wondering if there is a power bus and a computer/data bus in the chassis? If so then will the specs and details be made available for this?
dgd
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on January 26, 2017, 12:55:42 PM
A little too quiet here .....
Hmmm...:-) :-)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on January 26, 2017, 03:38:06 PM
the worker bees are very buszzzzy   ::)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: jimmyaz on January 27, 2017, 03:55:00 PM
Just wish there's a more solid release date... I am dying to make the decision whether to buy the Conext SW inverter now to change my system from off grid to grid support... or wait for the Midnite Inverter/Charge controller.

I already have the Classic 150, 24v AGM 210ah bank.  Wanting to upgrade to grid support inverter and possibly go to Li-Ion.

It is worth waiting for the MNB-17 since I already have the Classic 150?

Advise anyone?

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on January 27, 2017, 05:11:06 PM
When you read the released information you might want to note that the first ones to hit the market will be 48 V systems... 

I see you have a 24 V setup as do I...  Robin said there may be a later offering in lower voltages...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: BobWhite on January 27, 2017, 05:14:46 PM
Is there any word on the release of tje 48 volt?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on January 27, 2017, 05:15:54 PM
Hi Jimmyaz,   welcome to,  or back to the Forum.

The B17 product line will most probably start at the higher end of the maximum power spectrum,  IMO.

It may take MN quite some time to develop a 24 V model,   as higher power systems really want to operate at higher battery voltages  --  48V.

The Schneider Conext SW (or whatever they are calling them this month),  is an inexpensive inverter.   Again,  IMO,   the B17 is not designed to compete directly with the lower end SW inverters ...

Many of the advantages of the B17 become clear at the high end of the power scale,   and the SWEs are not there.

When I tossed out the idea of the B17,   realized that it was not exactly in your  application ball park ...

FWIW,  Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: jimmyaz on January 28, 2017, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Vic on January 27, 2017, 05:15:54 PM
Hi Jimmyaz,   welcome to,  or back to the Forum.

The B17 product line will most probably start at the higher end of the maximum power spectrum,  IMO.

It may take MN quite some time to develop a 24 V model,   as higher power systems really want to operate at higher battery voltages  --  48V.

The Schneider Conext SW (or whatever they are calling them this month),  is an inexpensive inverter.   Again,  IMO,   the B17 is not designed to compete directly with the lower end SW inverters ...

Many of the advantages of the B17 become clear at the high end of the power scale,   and the SWEs are not there.

When I tossed out the idea of the B17,   realized that it was not exactly in your  application ball park ...

FWIW,  Vic

The 24v or 48v is not a problem for me as because currently I have 4x 12v battery to make up for the 24volts,so I can change it to 48volts in a flash.  Plus I wanted to go up to 48v anyway.  Soon will probably even upgrade to Li-Ion.  Kept seeing them Tesla Model S salvage battery on Ebay and very tempting.

As for price point, so the B17 would be more like in the range of the Outback Radian series? 

My other question is, the B17 is design to sit in a shelves right?  seem like the depth is at least 12 inches? 

Don't know if I can wait... :) Normally there's at least a 6months delay for any company to release new product... Most people saying the end of this year for the B17,so probably mean Mid 2018. 

But the 80amps AC bypass is a huge benefit, the Conext SW can only do 30amps.  I have made so many wrong decision, trying to make the right one this time, but so hard. 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 08, 2017, 04:49:55 PM
Bump...

Ryan,  I think SPRING  :)  ;D is just around the corner....  Any news to share?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: EW Zuber on March 15, 2017, 03:05:06 AM
I have noticed that on my Outback VFX3648 there is a ~20khz sine wave modulating the peaks of the 60hz sine wave. I found this when an audio lead opened up at one end on my triamped Hafler stereo and allowed enough voltage to develop at 20khz (but not enough at 60hz to cause a buzz) at the input to blow out two of my Eaton tweeters when I cranked it. Using the 20khz sig at the amp output as a trigger it sync'd perfectly with the modulated signal on the AC wave form so I know they are one in the same. The signal is inaudible to my ears.
Just thinking it would be nice to either have a built in low pass filter in the inverter or an add-on unit to provide clean power.
I know this would likely be a really low priority but just in case this signal has caused other problems I thought I'd throw this out there.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on March 15, 2017, 10:31:58 AM
A 4KVA transformer would clean that 20khz right up.   But's pricey, and heavy. 

You could try a simple pi notch filter to suck the 20Khz too, but it would have to withstand full on AC line voltage 24/7 (use 600V rated gear in it)  and the coil would have to handle 4KVA, but much less than a full transformer


http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/bw%20pi%20low%20pass.htm
http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/ch%20pi%20low%20pass.htm
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: EW Zuber on March 15, 2017, 03:34:24 PM
Mike, I have a couple old Best 4KW 48V inverters here from back in the 1980's that have large square wire transformers and some really large chokes. Was thinking of using a couple chokes and caps to form a low pass filter.
Actually could use two 4KW transformers back to back as a 1:1.

I was amazed to see the amplitude of this 20khz sinewave when the tweeters were open. As I recall it was up around 100 VP/P.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 16, 2017, 03:45:13 PM
Recycled MS prototype boards. Cuz I was bored....:)

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on March 16, 2017, 04:51:15 PM
Hurry up I am getting old!
Lol.
Joking of course. :o
Title: Smoke Test
Post by: ClassicCrazy on March 17, 2017, 08:29:16 PM
I just watched the Midnite B17 smoke test video . Though when I first saw the title I  thought it was going to be the real smoke test where it gets over loaded until is smokes !
https://youtu.be/9QH2keseRSE

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on March 17, 2017, 10:14:14 PM
Thanks Larry for the post. & link!
That smoke machine is huge compared to mine .
I use mine to find a leak in a balloon

VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 27, 2017, 11:54:01 AM
PDF of new stuff coming from MS. Includes info on the new Inverters. :)

http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3727.0;attach=5831
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 27, 2017, 12:17:16 PM
Some pics from the New Stuff PDF.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 27, 2017, 12:18:26 PM
More pics? OK!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 27, 2017, 12:19:57 PM
A couple more....:)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 27, 2017, 12:25:29 PM
Tidbits!

Probably no interest in this link at all...but here it is anyway. :)
http://www.midnitesolar.com/beta.php
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 27, 2017, 12:28:14 PM
These folks are serious! :)

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 28, 2017, 01:55:46 AM
I like the part about sending a video.
We are also working on another less expensive battery based inverter. One name that has been passed around is "Little Willy"
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on May 28, 2017, 11:01:06 AM
Hmmmm  Little Willy and the KID?   ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 28, 2017, 03:33:45 PM
Little Willy will be a good match for the Classic or for the larger Big Kid.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 28, 2017, 07:11:04 PM
Robin is on because it's Hot day & were burning the moss off !
Good to hear Robin !  I also did the 5 am gardening  till I over heated . Then in the shade work .
It's miller time & have a lazy fun eve with the wife here.
Have the same with Ms M  Robin
VT
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 28, 2017, 09:34:54 PM
We had the same type of day here. Started early doing yard chores. Just finished 10 hours later. Tomorrow plant the garden. Can't wait to get back to work. This yard work stuff is hard!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on June 18, 2017, 06:23:53 PM
I got to say hi to the Midnite crew at the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair this weekend at Custer , Wisconsin  and see the one of the prototype new inverter / charge controller units as well as some of the other new and old Midnite products.  They are a very knowledgeable and helpful crew for sure.
(//)

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on July 28, 2017, 01:02:01 AM
Stopped by Midnite today. Robin was not around so I could not get any answers concerning what appears to be at least four MNB17-5 Inverters that look to be ready for shipping? As you can see they are partially boxed up etc. I asked somebody in the area if they knew what was up, and the reply was they are possibly in house/employee use only Alpha units!

Three were loaded up with modules and one was a bare unit. I know they have some folks that work for them that are out of state so maybe that's where they are going? If these are actually Alpha units then those of us interested in the Beta units may not have too much longer to wait!

Spotted an interesting support bracket for the B17. The wall mounting plate is thick and looks very strong so maybe these are for added support when stacking. It looked kool so I grabbed a pic.  :)





Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on July 28, 2017, 01:35:10 AM
Also got a pic of this PV array at MS. This is one of several they use for testing. Next trip up I hope to be able to plug in my EV to a battery based B17 that gets it's juice from this array.  :) Charged by the sun at home and when visiting MS!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Sunshine on August 03, 2017, 01:13:37 PM
We do enjoy letting the rumors fly but unfortunately those are not finished units for our out of state folks. Those are our show models, back from Intersolar and getting ready to ship out to SPI. Rest assured though, we are hard at work, making sure that we will have some fun new features to debut in Las Vegas.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 03, 2017, 05:04:15 PM
Quick B17 update.
Inverter power modules very well may exceed 2KW. Our limitation is no longer the transformers. They are running pretty cool now.
Communications between the MNGP, Justin's controller board and Bob and Mario's power modules is starting to work. We expect to demonstrate this at SPI.
I am ecstatic regarding the B17 progress during the past month or so.

I am now working on a plug in Lithium battery pack to go with the B17. My goal is to make a plug in that just slips into an unused slot in the regular B17 and then to also offer a similar B17 mainframe that would hold 7 battery packs. The battery pack face will look just like the MPPT and Inverter face plates.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on August 03, 2017, 06:15:49 PM
Robin said:  The battery pack face will look just like the MPPT and Inverter face plates.

Robin, how will the uninitiated know if he is getting the B - 17  controller/Inverter pack or the Battery Pack? Just has to be able to count past 5?  ;)  :o  ::)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 04, 2017, 12:10:13 AM
I don't have any good pictures here at home, but each module face says MPPT or INV. The meter faces inside the meters are specific to which type of module they are too. We put a raised rectangle area on the bottom of the module face specifically to add a label stating what the module is because at a glance you cannot tell. Once you actually look at them, it is easy to determine just what it is though. I don't know what we will do for the battery face plate yet? I do want to keep the basic look the same though. Single meter, push button and a couple of leds. I don't know just what the push button or leds will do yet? I suppose the meter will read voltage and one of the leds will verify voltage. Maybe when you push the switch, it can read current. Then the other led would switch on. This is how the other power modules work. I will get some close up pictures of the meter faces and module faces and post them.
If you want to check the health of each battery string, it will be available through the MNGP. We are attempting to put 104 #18650 Lithium battery cells in each module. Those would be two strings. Each string is comprised of 13 cell groups. Each cell group would be 4 of the #18650 cells. Those are a bit larger than a AA battery. We have cooling air, so if we can fit 104 batteries and the BMS system in our module size, we can keep them cool. It is very cramped though. Give me a few more days and I should know if this many batteries is possible.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on August 04, 2017, 10:18:41 PM
Robin ,
This is a good book on building lithium battery packs out of 18650 cells - Micah knows his stuff
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B06XRKD15B/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g2609328962?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&ie=UTF8

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 05, 2017, 12:17:33 AM
Thanks, I have requested three Lithium books already, so this will be the fourth.
This battery pack is going to be a fun project.
I had Rob Ruth take some photos of meters and module faces this morning, so I will post them here. I hope it begins to clear up some of the mystery about the B17.
These four pictures show the three meters on the E-Panel side of the B17. The bottom two are for each AC input. The top one is the AC output. There will generally be only two on at a time. They should match, so if they don't, this will give you a clue.

The module front is Justin's control module. I call it the traffic cop. It connects to everything. It has it's own meter (meter1 photo). That meter just shows you bat volts, current coming or going or state of charge of the battery. All of these are available on the MNGP too for those millenials that don't like analog meters.
The fourth photo is Mario's MPPT faceplate. You can see it has a raised PV label. The inverter module says VAC in the same place. This is where we can also say something different for the lithium battery pack. I don't know what to say though. We have no restriction on layout of the battery faceplate, but I was thinking it would be nice to make it match the other power modules. I am open to suggestions though if you can come up with different ideas that lend itself to this battery module.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on August 05, 2017, 06:35:11 PM
Robin,
Has there been any thought or discussion about using the newer 2170 batteries for a lithium battery pack?

According to the press, it has more energy, and will cost less.  Just curious.  Keep up the great work.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on August 06, 2017, 07:07:25 AM
I haven't seen any comments on which Lithium battery chemistry might be used?

Based on current popular options I recommend you investigate Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP), cells.  Not as energy dense as NMC or some of the other formulations, but the combination of excellent lifespan and safety characteristics seems like a good "impedance" match for a MidNite Solar product.

It also differentiates you from LG & Tesla which I believe use NMC.  I personally don't want to be anywhere near one of those systems if the BMS electronics glitches!

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.


Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 06, 2017, 01:28:15 PM
Those are all good comments. I will investigate.
Thanks,
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on August 06, 2017, 04:58:08 PM
Quote from: bailey on August 06, 2017, 07:07:25 AM
I haven't seen any comments on which Lithium battery chemistry might be used?

Based on current popular options I recommend you investigate Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP), cells.  Not as energy dense as NMC or some of the other formulations, but the combination of excellent lifespan and safety characteristics seems like a good "impedance" match for a MidNite Solar product.

It also differentiates you from LG & Tesla which I believe use NMC.  I personally don't want to be anywhere near one of those systems if the BMS electronics glitches!

Cheers,

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.

Here is some testing on various lithium types
https://youtu.be/dree0rTr1HM

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 06, 2017, 05:58:44 PM
Yup, Lithium can be very dangerous. We plan on monitoring the temperature of every single cell.
That helps a lot.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Sunshine on August 21, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
I would like to remind everyone that we will be conducting a very important test on the B17 today. It is vital to it's release. If you are in North America, you will experience partial to full obstruction of the sun over an approximately 2 hour period. Please do not be alarmed. The sun will return to normal as soon as our tests are concluded. Thanks!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on August 21, 2017, 12:02:52 PM
Quote from: Sunshine on August 21, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
I would like to remind everyone that we will be conducting a very important test on the B17 today. It is vital to it's release. If you are in North America, you will experience partial to full obstruction of the sun over an approximately 2 hour period. Please do not be alarmed. The sun will return to normal as soon as our tests are concluded. Thanks!
We hope the thing doesn't burn out !
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Sunshine on August 21, 2017, 12:30:38 PM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on August 21, 2017, 12:02:52 PM
Quote from: Sunshine on August 21, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
I would like to remind everyone that we will be conducting a very important test on the B17 today. It is vital to it's release. If you are in North America, you will experience partial to full obstruction of the sun over an approximately 2 hour period. Please do not be alarmed. The sun will return to normal as soon as our tests are concluded. Thanks!
We hope the thing doesn't burn out !
ClassicCrazy You are an extremely valued member on this forum. Because of your longstanding efforts, we would like to offer you a lifetime warranty on your sun. Should it ever burn out, simply box it up and ship it back to Midnite and we will replace it, free of charge.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on August 21, 2017, 03:29:30 PM
Quote from: Sunshine on August 21, 2017, 12:30:38 PM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on August 21, 2017, 12:02:52 PM
Quote from: Sunshine on August 21, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
I would like to remind everyone that we will be conducting a very important test on the B17 today. It is vital to it's release. If you are in North America, you will experience partial to full obstruction of the sun over an approximately 2 hour period. Please do not be alarmed. The sun will return to normal as soon as our tests are concluded. Thanks!
We hope the thing doesn't burn out !
ClassicCrazy You are an extremely valued member on this forum. Because of your longstanding efforts, we would like to offer you a lifetime warranty on your sun. Should it ever burn out, simply box it up and ship it back to Midnite and we will replace it, free of charge.

Thank you ! I am happy to report the watts are flowing upward again so no warranty will be needed at this time .
Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on August 21, 2017, 03:55:09 PM
All went smoothly here,   thanks for the heads-up Sue.

That B17 sure does have a lot of capability.   This was  a fun test.

Can hardly wait to get a B17.   Thanks!   Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 22, 2017, 01:26:51 AM
For our first prototypes, we will be using regular Lithium Ion. Take a look at the picture attached. The standard sized module for the B17 allows for up to 104 of the 18650 sized batteries. That really fills the module up. This would result in 2 strings of 13 series groups of 4 in parallel.
The 3.7V nominal batteries give you a 48.1V nominal battery.
Lithium Iron is only 3.2V, so requires more in series. The numbers don't work out for this size of plug in module. I am also dissapointed that the Lithium Iron batteries are only 1.5 amp hours instead of 2.2. The good thing about the Lithium Iron is that cycle life is much higher and they don't catch fire like Lion. We will be making a totally separate B17 enclosure for the batteries so it is possible to get the right mix for Lithium Iron. These modules will not be light weight if we end up with an 8 or 9" wide module instead of the 4.4" wide inverter and charge controller versions.
There is another reason to make a separate cabinet for the batteries that has the same theme as the inverter enclosure. Lithium batteries are not fond of heat, so do we really want a battery module right next to an inverter or Charge controller module? Our airflow seems to work well, but........
I will keep you all informed as to the progress. We are 3D printing all the custom plastic parts now. My job is to make it all fit in a package that looks good and that makes sense. Some of the smart guys (EE's) will have to make the BMS and such actually work. This is a very fun project. Most of you have by now seen the quad stack of B17's on the Alt-E video. A B17 and three battery enclosures would look almost just like that quad stack. Imagine a cool and powerful system like that and no battery cables!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: bailey on August 23, 2017, 05:31:09 AM
Looks like a very clever packing job!

While we are on the subject of unfortunate tradeoff's (from an energy density point of view), another thing to consider would be to ensure that you can route heat away from individual cells.  As Robin noted, these things don't do well if they get too hot, and many of the new high power packs I've looked at seem to put a lot of effort towards keeping all the cells cool, either by designing a good individual airflow path, or some sort of hybrid arrangement with heat pipes/phase change materials/etc.  You can always instrument the cells for temperature and throttle back when those in the middle start heating up, but...

Like usual, no free lunch!

Kirk Bailey
Abundant Solar, LLC.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on August 23, 2017, 01:09:18 PM
Quote from: Robin on August 22, 2017, 01:26:51 AM
For our first prototypes, we will be using regular Lithium Ion. Take a look at the picture attached. The standard sized module for the B17 allows for up to 104 of the 18650 sized batteries. That really fills the module up. This would result in 2 strings of 13 series groups of 4 in parallel.
The 3.7V nominal batteries give you a 48.1V nominal battery.
Lithium Iron is only 3.2V, so requires more in series. The numbers don't work out for this size of plug in module. I am also dissapointed that the Lithium Iron batteries are only 1.5 amp hours instead of 2.2. The good thing about the Lithium Iron is that cycle life is much higher and they don't catch fire like Lion. We will be making a totally separate B17 enclosure for the batteries so it is possible to get the right mix for Lithium Iron. These modules will not be light weight if we end up with an 8 or 9" wide module instead of the 4.4" wide inverter and charge controller versions.
There is another reason to make a separate cabinet for the batteries that has the same theme as the inverter enclosure. Lithium batteries are not fond of heat, so do we really want a battery module right next to an inverter or Charge controller module? Our airflow seems to work well, but........
I will keep you all informed as to the progress. We are 3D printing all the custom plastic parts now. My job is to make it all fit in a package that looks good and that makes sense. Some of the smart guys (EE's) will have to make the BMS and such actually work. This is a very fun project. Most of you have by now seen the quad stack of B17's on the Alt-E video. A B17 and three battery enclosures would look almost just like that quad stack. Imagine a cool and powerful system like that and no battery cables!
Are these of any use for your project Robin ?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Endless.Sphere.Sales/permalink/1195185057253128/?sale_post_id=1195185057253128

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 23, 2017, 02:13:28 PM
We plan on having a fan in the battery system enclosure. With enough sensors, we should be able to control temperature extremes as well as differential temperature from one end to the other. That too is important.
I have attached a picture of one half of the plastic battery cell holders. These pieces of plastic do a lot more than just hold the batteries. They also give us a place to attach the three circuit boards, the front face (with meter) as well as the side covers. These are pretty complicated pieces of plastic.
Notice the protruding piece on the bottom right side of the module. That is what we call the door opener. It moves a spring loaded wishbone up that locks the door closed so the door can move up out of the way when inserting a module.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on August 23, 2017, 03:10:08 PM
Hi Robin,

WOW,  that/those side piece/s are complicated.  3-D printing sure is a boon to doing models and prototypes.

Looks like you folks are having FUN.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop.   Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on August 23, 2017, 03:23:37 PM
Vic, we have five 3D printers. This particular piece was done on our largest printer. It can do 24" by 24" by 24" or something like that. The little Willy was done on many different machines. It took many hundreds of hours to print.
In the old days we had to be much more careful when designing parts like this. The first time you got to see the part was after the tooling had been created. The mistakes were very costly for sure. I remember doing three intricate investment castings for a large power supply that launched nuclear cruise missiles on the B2 bomber. We could not make prototypes and there was no CAD to help in the design, so I was really sweating it during the tooling phase of that project. Tooling was about $100K and it took myself and a drafter three years to get it done. I was afraid I would be fired if it didn't work. It turned out fine. CAD helped a lot, but with 3D printing, I can have a part made that is just a rough concept. No big deal if it isn't perfect. Matt, the engineer who makes the parts may disagree though. We keep him too busy with concepts that change a lot.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on September 16, 2017, 04:58:15 AM
If you need a tester in australia I will put my hand up! :o :D
No snow here in winter and solar production is still 5-7 hours per day depending on rare cloud and fog. :P ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 16, 2017, 11:11:30 PM
You will want to get signed up for a B17 Beta.
I think you go to www.midnitesolar.com/beta

There should be a sign up sheet.
I do not know when we will have battery modules. I do hope it is right around the time we have the B17 beta units, but maybe shortly after.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on September 17, 2017, 05:37:39 PM
I have cast my bread upon the water Robin!
Thanks Russ
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 17, 2017, 09:28:08 PM
Russ, you must be either in OZ or NZ? We think the B17 will be able to do 120/240VAC 60Hz or 230VAC 50Hz. Same hardware! Wouldn't that be nice.
Thanks,
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on September 18, 2017, 05:22:14 PM
Hey Robin,
I am inland from the east coast of Queensland, australia.
Yes we are 240 volt 50Hz here.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on January 23, 2018, 01:57:41 AM
If some day in the near future you discover a Troll going by the name of Margaret, age about 305, with one eyebrow (she shaved the upper one) a height of roughly Less Tall, weight near 300 pounds, works part time as a professional Nanny and has no favorite foods...you will be very close to a 9V NIMH.

If you join the resistance you will be charged and thrown in a dry cell. After a battery of tests the odds of being discharged are very high. :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on January 25, 2018, 03:57:37 PM
Onan?????????????????????????
You lost me mate!
But I am a bit slow and damaged. :o :(
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on January 25, 2018, 06:32:14 PM
Russ I think some of the 'magic smoke ' got out of a capacitor or ?? as Onan Parts was having the mick on you...

well done though....resistance.... charged....battery....dry cell.....discharged.....9V.... NiMH.... he pieced a lot of the previous discussions together, into nonsensical prose...
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on January 26, 2018, 11:11:47 AM
Quote from: Westbranch on January 25, 2018, 06:32:14 PM
Russ I think some of the 'magic smoke ' got out of a capacitor or ?? as Onan Parts was having the mick on you...

well done though....resistance.... charged....battery....dry cell.....discharged.....9V.... NiMH.... he pieced a lot of the previous discussions together, into nonsensical prose...

The nonsensical prose is the result of sticking my nose inside a B17 last week. I claim no fame for the prose that arose from the sticking of my nose that day within the bombay. :)

I'm just here to say that very soon one day future owners of B17's will know what I means! :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on January 26, 2018, 04:28:51 PM
So in truth you have smoke damage? ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on January 26, 2018, 07:07:24 PM
Quote from: russ_drinkwater on January 26, 2018, 04:28:51 PM
So in truth you have smoke damage? ;D ;D ;D

No smoke damage...:)

However, I can provide Margaret's Stats:

Species: She Troll
Age:             385
Eyes:               2
Eyebrows:        1 (She shaved the upper one)
Height:  Less Tall
Weight: 300 Pounds (21 Stone)
Profession: Nanny
Favorite foods: Slugs, worms, cats, cats with worms
Love Interests: Irving (Troll)
Astrological sign: Capricorn (a lot of corn)


Anyone that gets a B17 will meet Margaret! :) :) :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 17, 2018, 06:39:27 PM
In an effort to make sense of the nonsense....

Yesterday I stopped by Midnite to see how the R&D is going on all the Inverter projects. Was particularly interested in the B17, what else! :)

About those Trolls.....Certain Engineers at MS have no sense of humor at all! :) In the future, if you remove a particular circuit board: One cable, 4 screws, slide it out. Nice easy access....jerks! :)

While carefully examining said board you may encounter the following. But wait, why would anyone actually look closely at a boring circuit board and read the "fine print" ???

I can't answer that question, but look I did. And I found more than just your typicall Troll info!

Here we go.......




Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 17, 2018, 06:42:13 PM
OK, now that we are up to date on the B-17 Troll bios of Margaret & Irving, lets look around a bit more.

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 17, 2018, 06:46:04 PM
Nope, zero sense of humor at MS. Too bad they can't make circuit boards that are interesting.....:)

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on March 17, 2018, 08:23:34 PM
"Onan" did you happen upon anyone working on the Rosie Inverter ( formerly  Little Willie)  or the little sister? 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on March 17, 2018, 11:37:12 PM
A short vid from yesterday's visit showing a Little Willy or maybe the Big Kid? top cover prototype in a 3D printer that's almost done. Once they nail down exactly how they want it, then the aluminum casting's are manufactured. 3D printing really saves a ton of $$$$. Get it perfect before any big production run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WGPrsRU_0s&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: UpNorthMan on April 20, 2018, 10:14:51 AM
Any new updates on Rosie or the B17. It's finally starting to thaw around here and I'm getting itchy to get my system up and running!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 20, 2018, 10:58:47 AM
Both inverters are coming along fine. Bob, Scott and Mike are working away at issues every day. Scott is finishing up a small board so they can try a different approach to something or another. I think it has to do with synchronous rectification.
Mario and Baxter are hard at work on the 600V MPPT controllers and making great progress. No time line yet, but I'll keep you informed.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 20, 2018, 05:37:06 PM
It's true. boB and Mike slaving away on the B-17.  :) Scott was in another engineering lab when this pic was taken, but I did see him slaving away too!

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Matrix on April 21, 2018, 01:35:54 PM
I'm guessing the water color marked pics are to protect trade secrets  ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on April 21, 2018, 04:19:19 PM
Quote from: Matrix on April 21, 2018, 01:35:54 PM
I'm guessing the water color marked pics are to protect trade secrets  ;)

A cast of thousands is involved concerning the posting of "approved" in house MS pics.  :o

By "filtering" some pics, most if not all the red tape is bypassed....... :) Well, at least I hope so. Next time I show up, if they go into lockdown mode and call security I'll know the filtering was inadequate.......
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: UpNorthMan on April 24, 2018, 10:09:52 AM
Great to hear that the new major projects are moving along!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 13, 2018, 02:19:16 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on March 17, 2018, 08:23:34 PM
"Onan" did you happen upon anyone working on the Rosie Inverter ( formerly  Little Willie)  or the little sister?

Stopped by yesterday, Saturday. Weather was really nice so not too many MS folks around. I overheard that the final production castings/cases are done for Rose and Lil Rose. Sorry, no pics as they were nowhere to be found. Maybe next visit?

I did come across the 3D printed prototypes though and got a pic of them side by side to show the difference. These all black plastic versions do no justice to what the final machined aluminum ones will look like!

Also took some pics of what I believe are the production run versions of the meters for the B-17, and a quad meter set that "might" be found on an Epanel for the Rose/Lil Rose? Robin will have to verify that. I know the Quad meters will be on some Epanels for sure.

I've been kidding Midnite about putting an MP3 player in the Classics or B-17's. Maybe the "VU" meter is a hint?











Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Matrix on May 13, 2018, 04:55:54 PM
What is the proposed specs of that Rosie Inverter?  ie. Watts?   Split Phase 240v?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 13, 2018, 06:13:52 PM
The MNGP2 casting has been made, not the other die cast parts. I am waiting to see if all the parts fit. Those electrical engineers keep changing things on me. I suspect all die castings can be ordered within a month or two.
All the tooling for the custom plastic and rubber parts for the MNGP2 are also on order. We spent a lot of time Saturday with three East Coast tech support and sales people going over the menu structure for the MnGP2. We have them here for a week. By the time we were done, I cancelled the label for the MNGP2. We changed it quite a bit.

The VU meter is how we have been getting them. It takes about 1/2 hour to disassemble and rebuild each meter. We put our own lighting circuit board and back lighted meter face in them. There are 5 different meter faces on each B17. I hope to improve that time in the future.
The quad meter is indeed for a pre-wire system. I will include a CAD picture of one here.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 14, 2018, 12:19:28 AM
Thanks for the update Robin!

Hmmm...maybe a Marine version? :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on May 18, 2018, 02:14:36 PM
Robin,

Can you narrow down the Beta timeline any yet with all the progress that has been made so far? 

Everything looks great, can't wait.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 20, 2018, 03:02:13 PM
Give me another month and I should be able to nail down dates for the Rosie, B17, Comm box and Barcelona.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: CDN-VT on May 22, 2018, 02:16:27 AM
Lets Hope , Been there !
TTT =
Things Take Time
VT/Nig`
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ZoNiE on May 24, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
This is good news. I'm looking to replace my 22 yr old Heart Freedom inverter/charger in my Safari and am on the fence with whether I want the India built sealed OB or the US Built Magnum. Would really like a MNS solution to go with my Classic 150. If the OB was still built here, I probably already would have bought one...

I can wait for the MNS solution, but not too terriblly long.  :D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 25, 2018, 12:23:46 AM
We probably won't have any of the Rosies or Little Rosies out until the end of the year, so you may want to look at the 90% built in Mexico Magnum.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ZoNiE on May 29, 2018, 10:03:35 PM
I'm fine with Mexico. I can also wait. end of the year is not that far away.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 29, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
Don't quote the end of the year as a promise. I am hopeful, but these projects are tough. They are so complicated, it is hard to accurately guess at a timeline. We are making very good progress everyday, but there is still a lot to do.
As far as specs for the Little Rosie......here is what I think will happen although nothing much is being done on this until we get the B17 functional.
1. It looks like it should do a couple thousand watts.
Probably going to be 120V only. It takes a whole lot more parts to do split phase and I doubt we have room. A 2000 watt split phase inverter is going to be too small to run many 120/240VAC loads anyway. It will be stackable in series or parallel or both.
I expect to have 12/ 24 and 48V units, but am not sure how much room we have for transistors. A 12V unit takes 4 times as many DC fets as a 48V unit. We may not have enough room? I haven't tried to figure that out yet. I am working on thee Barcelona.
Did I ever tall you all how I came up with the name Barcelona?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on May 30, 2018, 04:24:09 PM
Not that I can  recall Robin... :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on May 30, 2018, 05:15:58 PM
My wife and I were on vacation in Barcelona shortly after she got sick. There was one day she was just too tired to go out walking the streets of Barcelona. That was the day I sat in the hotel room and started designing this high powered controller. Mary passed away late last year.
She loved Barcelona.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: mike90045 on May 30, 2018, 09:30:35 PM
Wow, that would bring up too many sad memories for me, I admire your gumption.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on May 30, 2018, 11:29:25 PM
Robin,

Your wife and the Rosie I knew would have Loved it.  I know I do.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ZoNiE on July 01, 2018, 12:56:41 AM
Quote from: Robin on May 29, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
Don't quote the end of the year as a promise. I am hopeful, but these projects are tough. They are so complicated, it is hard to accurately guess at a timeline. We are making very good progress everyday, but there is still a lot to do.
As far as specs for the Little Rosie......here is what I think will happen although nothing much is being done on this until we get the B17 functional.
1. It looks like it should do a couple thousand watts.
Probably going to be 120V only. It takes a whole lot more parts to do split phase and I doubt we have room. A 2000 watt split phase inverter is going to be too small to run many 120/240VAC loads anyway. It will be stackable in series or parallel or both.
I expect to have 12/ 24 and 48V units, but am not sure how much room we have for transistors. A 12V unit takes 4 times as many DC fets as a 48V unit. We may not have enough room? I haven't tried to figure that out yet. I am working on thee Barcelona.
Did I ever tall you all how I came up with the name Barcelona?

No worries. I have a 2K Modified that still works fine. I can wait. Specs sound good, however. Perhaps a 12V version would fit in a Classic case? That would be cool. The inverter and classic mounted side by side, matching.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on July 03, 2018, 01:37:04 AM
So here we have boB using the output of a B17 Power Module to send a msg with Morse Code using some Edison Bulbs..... :) Can you decode it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecIeoVIuDFQ&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: ClassicCrazy on July 04, 2018, 12:02:26 AM
Not very easily - I pretty much forgot all my code after I passed the 20 wpm test !
and I have to say it is easier to do it by sound - those lights make it tougher .

Larry
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on July 04, 2018, 02:04:52 AM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on July 04, 2018, 12:02:26 AM
Not very easily - I pretty much forgot all my code after I passed the 20 wpm test !
and I have to say it is easier to do it by sound - those lights make it tougher .

Larry

I caught boB tweaking a B17 power module, 55" O-scope on the one side and a bunch of light bulbs on the other. Old school meets new school! Hey boB, say something with those lights! :)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on July 09, 2018, 03:57:26 PM
Robin,

In May you said you might be able to nail down the timeline for Rosie and Barcelona by now.  Is that possible yet?


Waiting patiently.

Thanks
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on August 23, 2018, 01:06:34 PM
Marco
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on November 08, 2018, 10:49:54 AM
Anything new here yet?

George.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on November 08, 2018, 11:27:34 AM
Quote from: grgdgreek on November 08, 2018, 10:49:54 AM
Anything new here yet?

George.

They are coming along very nicely is about all I can say.

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on November 10, 2018, 07:51:13 AM
Quote from: boB on November 08, 2018, 11:27:34 AM
Quote from: grgdgreek on November 08, 2018, 10:49:54 AM
Anything new here yet?

George.

They are coming along very nicely is about all I can say.

Hopefully I can put something under the xmas tree!

George.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 11, 2018, 02:17:33 AM
Hmmm...Christmas themed Bee Seven teens..... :)

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 11, 2018, 02:26:46 AM
Dear Santa......
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on November 11, 2018, 05:14:34 AM
Quote from: onanparts on November 11, 2018, 02:26:46 AM
Dear Santa......

Your killin' me....

George
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 11, 2018, 01:40:03 PM
Hey Robyn! The Twelve Inverters of Midnite? Special Holiday Edition?  :) A 12 stack should fit in Santa's sleigh!

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Matrix on November 11, 2018, 09:37:56 PM
Someone has too much time on there hands.  But Hey, up 2 posts ... is that actual B17s in shipping boxes?   I never got my beta tester notice.   :-\
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on November 11, 2018, 09:40:31 PM
Quote from: Matrix on November 11, 2018, 09:37:56 PM
Someone has too much time on there hands.  But Hey, up 2 posts ... is that actual B17s in shipping boxes?   I never got my beta tester notice.   :-\

No.  It's definitely his extra time !  Pretty cool though !

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Ron Swanson on November 11, 2018, 11:46:30 PM
We got a pile of money burning holes in pockets.  We need this product now.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 12, 2018, 01:42:06 AM
Beta models in shipping boxes by Christmas might be a stretch....Rumor has it that boB is working with Alpha models at this time under loads and with smooth stable output. No magic smoke has escaped...yet! Once boB and the thousands of Engineers at MS have tried their best to get the smoke out and failed, then and only then will we get word on Beta models that are ready to ship.

Now about all that extra time......boB wanted a "Bow" so I found him a bow! Here it is boB!  :)

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on November 12, 2018, 09:58:12 AM
Quote from: onanparts on November 12, 2018, 01:42:06 AM
Beta models in shipping boxes by Christmas might be a stretch....Rumor has it that boB is working with Alpha models at this time under loads and with smooth stable output. No magic smoke has escaped...yet! Once boB and the thousands of Engineers at MS have tried their best to get the smoke out and failed, then and only then will we get word on Beta models that are ready to ship.

Now about all that extra time......boB wanted a "Bow" so I found him a bow! Here it is boB!  :)
Very suspicious looking signature....

George.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on November 12, 2018, 12:53:48 PM
Quote from: onanparts on November 12, 2018, 01:42:06 AM
Once boB and the thousands of Engineers at MS have tried their best to get the smoke out and failed, then and only then will we get word on Beta models that are ready to ship.



We are going  very high tech on the B-17 ! 

We have replace ALL smoke with vape !

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 12, 2018, 03:10:20 PM
Some serious wishful thinking here.....but hey, shoot for the moon and settle for an SR-71 at 70,000 feet?  :)

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 13, 2018, 01:04:40 AM
Quote from: boB on November 12, 2018, 12:53:48 PM

We are going  very high tech on the B-17 ! 

We have replace ALL smoke with vape !

Hey boB, what kind of power are you using to recharge the Vape batteries, hope it's Solar...  ;)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 15, 2018, 02:08:55 AM
I'm planning a visit up at Midnite end of this week. Been too long! Last July... :o

I contacted my secret info source at MS the other day, claims to be a janitor but I think he's actually the person that makes sure everything is unplugged at night.....isn't that a janitor?  ;)

Anyway, will maybe get to see firsthand a B17 putting out some 60hz 120/240 VAC under load! The janitor says he has a hidden camera in the engineering labs, and recently observed the following activity:

A single B17 AC module running on one cylinder, the modules are OHV opposed twins. On just one cylinder the output was a little over 1100 watts. Accounting for losses it was probably 1050 watts or so.
Temps were running about 65C/150F on the transistors.

Now this is where the janitor said it got interesting. No heatsinks were in use on the transistors. None! No air flow! No fans no nothing!  :o I recall Robin's target was 2000-2500 watts per module, with heat sinks and air flow it sure looks like the higher 2500 watt target is possible!

So a B17-5 with 4 AC power modules could be hitting the 10kW mark! 5th slot gets a CC module and that's one rocking Inverter/Charger/Charge Controllor!  :)

Updates and pics soon!

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 18, 2018, 12:20:32 PM
Friday was a long and very interesting day up at Midnite. First, I did get to see a B17 operating various loads, resistive and inductive! Lots of big grins around the Midnite Engineering Division. This is the point where all the Engineers start to have a lot of fun, real world load testing.

The light is now literally visible at the end of the long tunnel. Fine tuning of the B17 now begins. They have a lot to do, but progress should be fairly rapid at this point. Bigger batteries, bigger loads etc.

A note about my prior post. The 1100 watt load test that was stable at 65C? I thought it was a short duration test. Nope! 2-3 hours without heat sinks or fans! That's really good news. Granted, the module was out in the open, enclosed in the mainframe will be different. However, the heat sinks are substantial and the air flow design is such that heat is not going to be an issue.

I'll be stopping by Midnite more often now to check on the progress. I would have lots of pics but Robin kidnapped me and got me somewhat involved in following another of his projects....

The Midnite E-Bird! It will be powered by the Lithium Iron battery modules they are developing for use with the B17. Grab some popcorn, sit back and watch it all unfold here:
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4218.0

Oh, I asked Midnite if they would/could put up an "Inverter" section here in the forums? Yes! Ryan is working on that now so keep an eye out for all things Midnite Inverter related to have their own area. B17, Rosie, Hawk's Bay etc. And the new Charge Controllers are getting their place too. With everything scattered around it will be nice to have all the new stuff in one or two sub forums.  :)



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Ron Swanson on November 18, 2018, 07:05:32 PM
The time is very ripe for the new inverter product.

I suspect here in rural California, commercial power is [not] going to get any easier to get after this year's events.

I don't like running lots of wires between inverters, charge controllers, and the like.

I want something that we plug in and Just Works.

Sooner the better (within reason).

We have an experienced beta tester volunteer just waiting for this product.

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on November 18, 2018, 08:32:10 PM
Ron, did you leave a 'NOT' out of line 2?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 18, 2018, 09:08:57 PM
Well, the B17 is as plug and play as it gets. Still plenty to do, but both the inverter and charge controller modules for the B17 are on the down side of the development hurdles now.
This has been a long haul.
Thanks,
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 18, 2018, 09:36:19 PM
boB and Mike during one of the load testing sessions Friday. Appears that bob stole/barrowed his girlfriend's hairdryer, what's he gonna do with it?! A hairdryer is a high tech tool for increasing the temps in specific areas during testing..... ;) And it doubles as a portable resistive load!

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 18, 2018, 10:03:43 PM
When you switch a hair drier to half speed, it presents a half wave load to the inverter. In the old days, that used to blow inverters up if they were not well designed. We had no problem with the half wave load.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 18, 2018, 10:12:52 PM
Two of Robin and boB's Inverter and or Charge Controller Engineers, Baxter and Mario. Midnite has a top notch group of Engineers. I'm very close to actually remembering all their names and faces by now!  :)
A big shout out to all of them for the hard work on the Inverters and Charge controllers, plus many other goodies we can look forward to getting our hands on in the near future.

A big thank you to:
Robin, boB, Mario, Baxter, Justin, Matt, Peter, Scott, Eric, Mike, Andy, Doug, Jimmy, and Jim. Might have missed one or two?

I see Robin posted while I was typing, so how about a look at that half wave hairdryer load on the B17? I know, a waveform is a waveform. But this is an actual B17 waveform. Until recently they were very rare to non existant! The monster is alive!  8)
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on November 18, 2018, 11:03:34 PM
Robin, about that spaceship........

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 19, 2018, 12:43:12 AM
You forgot BobQ and Sami.
Linnea is our engineering assembler.
Ryan and Roy serve a very important function keeping the engineers going down the right path also.
We have a huge engineering staff compared to our competition. They can much better afford engineers, but they just don't do it?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on November 19, 2018, 12:49:13 AM
I have always wanted to design and build stuff. I remember in the 7th grade searching for a couple of 55 gallon drums so I could build a submarine. The rocket ship is no different.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on September 13, 2019, 06:28:11 AM
Has the B17 reached production or stalled in development?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Westbranch on September 13, 2019, 11:56:16 AM
boB made a comment about the B17 (?) in the thread about the smaller inverters
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on September 14, 2019, 01:41:08 AM
No development stalled.  Well under way and busy every day.

It is just taking much longer than expected or wanted !

Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on January 22, 2020, 03:33:57 PM
Any update on the B17 Bob?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on January 22, 2020, 05:49:24 PM
Quote from: russ_drinkwater on January 22, 2020, 03:33:57 PM
Any update on the B17 Bob?

No, sorry.  Still working on it.   A  LOT of us are working on it !

boB
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: russ_drinkwater on January 24, 2020, 08:32:57 PM
Sounds like my new cattle yards, but its a solo mia inillud operatur my case!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on June 18, 2020, 12:28:03 PM
Any chance for a six month checkup?  How is Rosie and the rest doing?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: FNG on June 18, 2020, 03:42:17 PM
Still a good bit to go,
The B17 is making ac but is not charing the batteries yet. boB is working on that still, I suspect 2-3 months for off site alpha testing.
Rosie, This was given to Andy and he is working on it daily but it is probably a bit further out say 3-5 months for off site alpha testing.
Barcelona and Hawkes bay are both under the guidance of Mario and I would say are 2-3 months from off site alpha testing
The Comm Box, This one I am not sure I am guessing it is about inline with the Rosie
MNGP2 is taking shape, we (All of us) are working on menus and layout now
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 02, 2020, 12:07:28 AM
We just hired three more engineering technicians and two engineers.
The second go around of Rosie boards are now finished and ready to order. The Rosie has undergone tons of changes so we have high expectations for it. Beta units of Hawke's Bay are starting to be assembled. There were numerous changes to the unit and new boards are on order. One thing we discovered was the sealed Hawke's Bay was only outputting 70 amps at expected temperatures. We wanted 80. Some changes are in process that should result in 75 amps. Because of this, we have elected to create a vented version. IT will be a bit more expensive as it has more expensive parts, but it should come in at 100 amps. So........what does that mean for the Barcelona? The Barcelona is actually two Hawke's Bays in one enclosure. I do not believe we will see 200 amps though. Might get 180? These things are very powerful!
The B17 is coming along fine. So is the B17-B We just ordered 13,000 battery cells for engineering test samples. Each 48V 1200 watt hour plug in module uses 96 cells. There are as many as 8 modules per unit. That makes the cell quantities add up very fast.
Production areas are being set up in 4 new buildings. They won't be enough, but you gotta start somewhere. Sunspec receivers and transmitters are now ready to go to NRTL testing. We are waiting for quotes.
Don't know if a Little Rosie would be a viable product based on price, but if it turns out to be, there will be a 3000 watt inverter also.
There is another project we have discussed at length. The "Lunch Time Project" More on that later as we get resources allocated. That is why we call it the Lunch Time project. It only gets worked on when we go out for lunch. We have tons of napkins with sketches and schematics of that project.
Things are very busy here for sure.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: grgdgreek on September 02, 2020, 01:39:05 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on September 04, 2020, 02:26:57 PM
Robin,

Nice update.  Are you using 18650s or another battery?

Can't wait for Barcelona and Rosie!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 04, 2020, 03:10:06 PM
The 18650 is too small. I do not recall the size we are using, but it is 3.8 milliamp hours per cell.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on September 04, 2020, 03:33:02 PM
I'm glad you are using larger batteries.  Can't wait.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on September 04, 2020, 03:39:56 PM
We should be able to build a good representation of a battery module in about a week. We keep on changing things. Time to get it right and then go for the tooled parts rather than 3D printed stuff. That could happen soon. The battery module has to pass some UL required tests. One of them is a drop test. That is the reason we keep doing redesigns. The module is totally packed and we cannot make it any bigger. That makes it a real challenge. One thing we are doing to help make it withstand a drop is to add stamped metal sides. We found out that it only costs $1.00 more to have these metal sides embossed, polished and chrome plated. Guess what we are going for?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on October 05, 2020, 10:23:41 PM
Robin,

Did the new boards arrive?  Any luck getting Rosie up and running ahead of Alpha or Beta testing? 

What about Barcelona?  Any updates you can share? 

Will either be available this year?

AND did you see the size of Elon's new battery. 4680!!  Will that fit in the B-17 :)

Hope all is well, and we can't wait for more news on your progress. 

Thanks for all the work, stay safe.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 05, 2020, 11:25:11 PM
Lots of questions. We are building the Rosie control, filter and aux power supply boards now. We have not yet ordered the main power board. It looks like we still have about two weeks of design to finish before we can order the power board. Once we have all the boards, then we still have tons of software to do. Much of the B17 software is available for use on the Rosie, but how much is applicable I am not sure. The charging circuits are quite different on each unit. It will be interesting to see which inverter is ready for beta testing first. I am hopeful both will see beta testing with our people this year. We have missed so many dates thus far, I am very hesitant to make guesses, but I do know the B17 inverter module inverts extremely well. Charging from the B17 module is next.
The Hawke's Bay is up and running in the lab, in our solar lab that we call the homeless shelter and at Mario's house. I am not sure how much more software needs to be completed on the Hawke's Bay before we can send beta units to Maine, Florida and Missouri. It must be close though. We will skip over the Barcelona for a short period after the HB is ready for beta testing so Mario can start software for the B17 MPPT modules. We have quite a few modules built although the B17 MPPT modules do not yet have updates that the Hawke's Bay has. We hope to be able to use them. We are working on adding all the newest hardware changes for the next version of B17MPPT boards not yet on order. The Barcelona is two HB units in one, so it won't take much to get the Barcelona beta ready once Mario gets back to it. We still have two additional charge controllers I want to do after these three new ones, but we have our hands full at the moment. We also have another inverter to do after the Rosie and B17 also. That too must wait. We have 22 engineers and technicians in the engineering department, so we have plenty of manpower. This stuff is just hard to finish though. On the production front, we have been gearing up for that too. We now have 32 pick and place machines to build our circuit boards. We only need 22, but since our machines are older and not as reliable as newer machines, we have lots of spares. This gives us incredible capability!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 05, 2020, 11:31:58 PM
We won't be using Elon's new battery size. I don't think that is even available to the rest of the world. We are using something larger than 18650, but can't remember the exact size? I think they are 26mm in diameter. There are 96 cells in each battery module. There are 6 or 8 modules depending on the main frame selected. We have communications to the inverter and everything else in the system. We also can withstand cold temperatures beyond what other normal lithium batteries can do. The batteries are going to be very unique. We are even building some 12V lithium batteries to power some signs going up outside two of our buildings. More on that soon.
The picture is Shawn, our production manager in the circuit board building.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on October 06, 2020, 02:03:23 AM
Thanks for the update.

Can't wait to hear about any progress! 

One last thought, is there any concern about "trying to achieve perfection" being the enemy of "its ready to go?"  Sometimes I am guilty of that in my projects.  When I figure that out, the project goes a lot quicker.


All the best.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 06, 2020, 11:36:41 AM
I assure you we are not delaying things trying to achieve perfection. There are many parts to the process and we just aren't done yet. Can't ship a product that isn't finished. I am sure we will leave some "non perfect" features in there. The good thing is that you will be able to upgrade the firmware. I am hopeful that our guys in Maine, Florida and Missouri will work out any obvious bugs before shipping outside of MidNite personnel. We will be adding features throughout the life of the projects, but there are certain ones that must be in the design and working.
Thanks,
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: qrper on October 06, 2020, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Robin on October 06, 2020, 11:36:41 AM
I assure you we are not delaying things trying to achieve perfection. There are many parts to the process and we just aren't done yet. Can't ship a product that isn't finished. I am sure we will leave some "non perfect" features in there. The good thing is that you will be able to upgrade the firmware. I am hopeful that our guys in Maine, Florida and Missouri will work out any obvious bugs before shipping outside of MidNite personnel. We will be adding features throughout the life of the projects, but there are certain ones that must be in the design and working.
Thanks,
Robin

As Doctor McCoy said, "I know engineers. They love to change things."

So Sometimes you need to shoot the engineer and get on with the project!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on October 06, 2020, 02:58:56 PM
Believe me, I am ready to shoot all 22 engineers!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on October 06, 2020, 11:53:59 PM
Quote from: Robin on October 06, 2020, 02:58:56 PM
Believe me, I am ready to shoot all 22 engineers!

Ummmm....   

Can I just choose my own demise then ?   I have some fun ways to go instead of bullets.



Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Trukinbear on October 18, 2020, 02:57:01 PM
Nice to hear you are working hard on this! If you guys ever need an average joe, fumble fingered, do-it-yourselfer with poor eyesight, and hearing - I'm your guy. There are so many 'common knowledge,''rules of thumb' and such that your first time DIYer aren't going to have. Often a manual that reads perfectly well to the EE, or knowledgable sales people, may read like 5 dimensional chess to the novice - perhaps a 'for dummies' (but don't call it that) version of the manual that leaves out all the tasty goodies the techs love, but puts in all the stuff that you already know so deep down that you can't even imagine someone else not knowing. I'm in the middle of building a house of my own design, no experience or anything like that. I can buy a book (or watch a video) that shows me how to do most of what I've done, but they don't tell me the stuff that any half-decent carpenter's (electrician's, plumber's) helper knows - I've had to overcome some serious errors because of this. Now I know printing a 2nd version would cost twice as much, but in this digital age a 2nd version shouldn't cost much more than the cost of writing it. Just my thoughts. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 13, 2020, 07:38:15 PM
4 Hawke's Bays will ship this week. No manual yet. The one going to Todd in Missouri will be used for starting the manual. Mario still has stuff to finish on the Hawke's Bay before moving on to the Barcelona, but when he does, the Barcelona should be a piece of cake. It is actually two Hawke's Bay units in one box. The Barcelona can be run independently or summed together.
Bob is 99.9% ready to charge off the grid for the B17. Then paralleling code. Then we need to finish Justin's board and all the Canbus communications.
Mario will also have to get the B17 MPPT finished. We came up with enough changes based on the Hawke's Bay that the B17 MPPT will want to have new boards built.

Rosie boards are all in and Andy is expecting to fire it up in about one week. Then we will start thinking about a Little Rosie. The Rosie is somewhere between 5000 and 6000 watts out. 120/240VAC with a 48V battery bank. We will do 12 and 24 later.
The Little Rosie will be 3000 watts but only 120VAC.

Scott is finishing up board changes to the B17-B Lithium Battey system. Looks like a B17 inverter with modules.

We are still considering the "Lunch time Project" too. A charge controller to compete with offshore stuff.

One project that is taking some of our engineering resources is the Sunspec Rapid Shutdown project. There are three different receivers.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: unyalli on December 13, 2020, 10:22:11 PM
The Little Rosie will be 3000 watts

Not 30 amps AC, not able to power a standard RV.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 14, 2020, 12:42:06 AM
The little Rosie can be 60 amp pass thru.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on December 14, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
Robin and all,
Great news!  Glad to see things are finally coming together!

Little Rosie, 3000 watts, not the expected 2000 watts.  Rosie, 5000 to 6000 watts not the 4000 watts expected.  Out of the park upgrades! 

B-17 getting ready to grid connect, Awesome!

Hawk's bay and Barcelona coming along nicely, also awesome. 

Glad to see the new products are about to see the light of day!

When possible can we see some new pics?  Also, any willingness to give expected efficiency numbers?  Other specs?

Thanks so much for the hard work, we are eager to see the fruits of your collective labors!

Great work all!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 15, 2020, 12:16:29 AM
Rob Ruth took pictures of the first Hawke's Bay to leave the factory today before boxing it. I will ask him for some to put on the forum. He also wanted to take pictures of the Barcelona. It is really cool, but I wasn't quite ready with breakers and such. That won't take long though. The Rosie will also go up on the forum soon. I have pictures, but Rob's are so much better. We should be getting photos of the lithium battery module soon also. Waiting for the chrome plated side covers and plastic face plate. The photos I have seen of the side covers look more like nickel plating.........Gotta train the vendor and proper 1957 Buick grille plating.
We have not done any efficiency testing of the Hawke's Bay yet. Perhaps I can ask Mario and Lee to do that. Efficiency numbers are pretty meaningless though on charge controllers.
Efficiency number is at one point and no consideration given for tracking accuracy. Controllers do not operate at one point only. We did some interesting power graphs years ago on the Classic. Maybe we can revisit those and adapt them to the Hawke's Bay and Barcelona.
The B17 will have very good efficiency. Most of the time Mike does his testing with no heatsink! When he does have heatsinks installed, he does not use any forced air cooling on the bench. He is always testing just an individual module. The transistors and transformers are not too hot even with no air cooling, so that is encouraging.
Hawke's Bay will be about 80 amps for the sealed unit and 100 amps + on the vented one. Both have a 600V input.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on December 20, 2020, 04:26:21 AM
Robin,
Thanks for the feedback,  What I was trying to ask was how much better these new devices are compared to older technologies out there.  I called it efficiencies, but obviously there is a better term to use.  So, to restate, can you give us an idea how much better these designs are over past designs?  No heatsinks and no fans is very impressive.  Also, seeing the output rating as high as it is means your team did better than expected!  Looking forward to seeing the pictures. 

It appears the wait will have be worth it, again!

Merry Christmas to all the elves!!  Here's to a great 2021!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: boB on December 20, 2020, 09:26:04 PM

Merry Christmas HighFlyer !

Well, there are several cool things about the B17 in particular I think.  One biggie that I like but not too many talk about is that one person could install (lift) a whole 10s or kW system themselves because it is modular.  This is possible because the B17 (and Rosie) is a high frequency design.  No large and heavy transformers.   


Then there is the maintenance aspect where almost anybody can replace a power module if it breaks.  We're trying to make that better of course by making it not break in the first place  :)

Not sure how big of a deal this is but the transfer time from grid to inverter should be instantaneous because the output has no relay.  Just the AC inputs.


The battery system is especially neat in this light-weight way too.  How many pounds does one of those  typical new Lithium battery system weigh ?  I can't lift them.  Each B17 1kW-Hour (or so) module is about 22 pounds.  Just plug it in (or unplug it)

The communications network is having a huge amount of work done to make it do a lot also.

It's so cool !  I know there is more

boB
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 20, 2020, 11:51:12 PM
I attached a few photos here. Not sure though now what all they are? I made a guess and will add more in the next post, so if I remember wrong which photos I attached, it will make sense in the next post. Hawke's Bay inductor test, lithium battery prototype, Lee in the Hawke's Bay test area with unit on the wall and I think a Rosie and E-Panel.
One big deal about the Hawke's Bay and Barcelona is that you can add a Sunspec transmitter, Arc fault detector and Ground fault detector in the field. They all plug into the controller in the wiring compartment. The Hawke's Bay vented will do at least 100 amps continuous. I am hoping it does 110? We may know this coming week depending on what all Mario has planned. I know he is testing the Barcelona and B17 MPPT this week also. Mario and Lee are very busy! The Barcelona is actually two Hawke's Bay units in one box. You can configure them as separate controllers or together as one giant unit. This allows you to have one South facing array and one West. or one Wind Turbine? We have not yet done any power testing of the Barcelona. That is scheduled for this week. I suspect it may get rated at 160 to180 amps out. The air cooling on the Barcelona is not as good as on the Hawke's Bay, but that may improve, so we just do not know the final output yet. It will be very powerful regardless.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 21, 2020, 12:16:25 AM
The battery has changed a bit after we connected up all the voltage sense wires. It was very time consuming, so Scott and BobQ designed a flex strip. We should be getting that in this week.
The three Hawke's Bays in the previous post are three of the four beta units we shipped out to MidNite beta testers in Missouri, Florida and Maine.
The empty facility was to be Rosie and B17 module production, but we just acquired a larger facility right behind our building 6. The new facility will have a double decker conveyor assembly line 120 feet long. Then another separate line for the battery assembly. Communication between the battery system and our inverters will be seamless. All Canbus and all automatic. We plan on working with other batteries that have communications also, but ours should truly be seamless. Our battery system is capable of working with other inverters too, but it is not going to be cheap. There is a 25% tariff on lithium sells coming from China, but only 7.5% on a completed battery. Now what sense does that make?
One thing we can do with the battery module is to keep them working at cold temperatures. We have plans to have them self heat if approaching freezing temperatures. That is not a common feature among lithium batteries.
When the battery assembly is in full swing, we will be going through 1 million cells a year. That number is staggering.
Should be fun!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 21, 2020, 12:23:51 AM
I attached a preliminary brochure for the Hawke's Bay and also a poster of all our breakers now and next year. Breakers are getting very confusing to say the least, so we made this poster to help sort things out. I hope I got the most current?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on December 21, 2020, 12:30:12 AM
Nope, got the wrong version. Here is the real poster.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Vic on December 21, 2020, 12:44:20 AM
Hi Robin,

Thank you very much for all of the Updates on the progress there.

Congratulations on ALL of that progress.   It is truly very exciting.

Looks like a lotta work,  but often this is a very rewarding time to be in R&D.

Great work,   we all have been patiently waiting.  With MidNite products,  the wait is always worth it.

Thank you and the MidNite staff for so many truly visionary,  and incredibly functional products.   Hats off to you all.

Best wishes for the holidays.   Hope that you can take a bit of time to enjoy all that youze folks have gotten done,  and are finishing.

Am very interested in the Hawkes Bay and Barcelona CCs,  NOW.

Have fun!  Thanks to you all.    Best wishes for an even better 2021!   Vic
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on January 04, 2021, 10:24:08 AM
Happy New Year to all the great people of Midnite!

Robin, thanks for the pictures.  It is interesting to see the bench testing and how it is setup. 

I do like the look of the breaker boxes, and how they match Rosie and Hawk's bay.  Very classy look.

The next thing I will be waiting for is beta testing and release dates.  I am putting up a Chinook and a second set of panels just to have fun with.  If the numbers workout right, I should be able to power my over winter Tilapia setup without issue.  During the summer months, I see air conditioning in the barn in my future! 
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on January 04, 2021, 07:14:33 PM
We may have a few early beta Hawke's Bay units available soon. They are not the finished product by any means, but they may just work out well here for some good feedback. Well good if they work?
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on January 06, 2021, 05:30:16 PM
So, I am waiting for Mario to get us a couple of units with code that is worthy of sending out to High Flyer and Vic. I do not expect this to take too long. We will have to jury rig the breakers though as we do not have any breaker enclosures to spare.
Please e-mail me your contact info to: robin@midnitesolar.com
Thanks,
Robin
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on January 07, 2021, 12:47:43 PM
Both happy and humbled.

Email sent!

Can't wait to play with new Midnite stuff!


Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Fort Wisers on January 07, 2021, 04:21:52 PM
Wow, now that's a nice looking product!
Keep up the good work Midnite......
Brent
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 12, 2021, 12:09:38 PM
Did I mention how surge testing is going?
Well here are some results. Everybody knows that high frequency inverters can’t surge, right? People are talking about the 12 kw Solark that claims a 20kw surge. I hear it has problems starting a 120vac compressor? One b17 module rated at 3000 watts (two 1500 watt 120vac inverters per module) can surge. First we turn on two 1500 watt light banks. That should wipe out any chance of having much left, right? Wrong! Then we start at the same time four dewalt 1.6hp at r compressors has hat are already full of air. That is impressive. We are trying to dial in the protection circuitry, but so far we have not been able to blow it up. It will also start a 15,000 watt light bank all at once.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on March 12, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Do you need to rename it the B-17000?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on March 12, 2021, 02:07:04 PM
That’s funny. Today they are running more tests and will just let it run when in severe overload while watching FET temperature with a flir. Bob says since the inverter will probably be tripping the overcurrent protection on and off, the temperature may even go down? Hard to tell what is going to happen. I told them to wear goggles. Easy for me to say since I am down in Puerto Vallarta with my lovely wife at the moment.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on March 12, 2021, 11:11:08 PM
Congratulations, all around!
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on April 09, 2021, 10:43:10 PM
Well, how did the test go?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 10, 2021, 10:59:25 AM
We kept on reducing the sensitivity of the protection circuitry such that it essentially was out of circuit. We aren't using the corrcet DC fets on the B17 yet as we only have a few samples and they went into the Rosie. The real fets are tougher and lower resistance than the ones we are testing with, but if we can't get the ones we want, we will continue using the Brat fets. Running half of a B17 module at about 5000 continuous watts does eventually get the Dc fets hot. That is not unexpected as it is only a 1500 watt inverter section. We finally shut the unit off after the fets got up to 187C! They never broke. Boy are those good fets. We didn't have any air flow during this test so we could have run it longer with fan cooling. This condition will never happen in a real B17, but it is good to know just how tough these things are.
By the way, The Rosie is now up and running and putting out lots of power too.
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Highflyer on April 14, 2021, 10:02:24 PM
All good news, is is time for Beta testing yet?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: Robin on April 14, 2021, 11:27:11 PM
I asked Mario this afternoon when will we be able to send some units out again? His answer was typical of an engineer.
1. It was working so well.
2. I went to add a couple more features and fix a couple of things.
3. Now it is all broken!

I am sure he will get the HB ready to ship out soon. That means within a couple of weeks.
Then the Barcelona. We have plenty of boards built, but Mario has to get the HB working decently first since the Barcelona is basically just two Hawke's Bays.

Then the B17 MPPT is next. We have modules built. Sami is redoing the MPPT circuit boards to bring them up to the HB level of changes, but we can use what we have now for testing. Unfortunately it is third on the list.

We are resurrecting the LTP (Lunch Time Project). Every Friday a dozen or so engineers will go out to a larger restaurant to eat lunch and talk about the LTP. Jeremy is the main engineer on the LTP, but it will be based on all of our previous charge controllers, so Bob and MArio will have a lot to say about the direction it will take. My goal is to make an MPPT charge controller here in the states that blows the doors off the competition. I know technically that is possible. The challenge is to make it cheap enough that people will want to buy it over all the foreign made stuff.
I think it is possible. Hope we can make a buck or two in the process?

The Rosie is putting out a lot of power lately as well as is the B17 inverter. Bob's focus lately has been hot swap for the plug in modules. Making them behave and not electrocute customers is a real challenge. It is coming along fine though. We still have a few more expendable technicians that haven't bit the dust yet.

Sunspec compliant rapid shutdown is almost ready for ETL. We are having tons of problems getting parts though.

The B17B battery system is almost ready for a full fledged prototype too. Boards are being ordered. Metalwork should be ordered in a couple of weeks. The custom plastic and chrome plated side covers are being tooled now too. Can't wait to see one all put together. IT will be a real challenge building this module without shorting battery packs out. There are so many chances to screw up. We will need very special processes and procedures once we have a functional product. In the mean time Scott has to be very careful. Scott is the B17B engineer. We have worked with him since our very early days at Trace Engineering. Scott was also one of the owners of OutBack with us too.
Although the MNGP2 is pretty functional now, James has started on a touch screen version that can hold about 40 minutes of video. I am thinking installation related video instructions that also have sound. Maybe we can get an episode of StarTrek on there also?
Title: Re: New Off Grid Inverter Charger
Post by: onanparts on May 23, 2021, 03:22:56 PM
I posted links to B17 and Rosie videos firing up air compressors in the Inverters sub forums but here they are too. Please read the full descriptions in the videos for the details. :)

B17 overload video, 1500 Watts of lights plus a pair of compressors on half of a module, 120V single leg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3mGehzhIwc

B17 video 300 watts of light and a pair of compressors same as above, on half of a module.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AHHsfqNMhA

Rosie video first time running a single air compressor. Note Andy's hesitation on flipping the switch..will it smoke? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1yDP8n1wW0

Rosie video first time running a pair of compressors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4YQi7ksGUs