Classic with Lithium Ion?

Started by StrataNetNZ, August 22, 2013, 06:55:36 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

cpm

Quote from: Westbranch on January 02, 2014, 09:22:44 PM
Quote from: cpm on January 02, 2014, 08:05:11 PM

For instance, 700ah balqon LiFePO4 cells go 'ding' at the cash register at a flat $700 + shipping, need 8 of'em for a solid 24v bank, that's (in round numbers) $3600 for a 17kwh 24v battery bank. Not too shabby given the duty cycle of these things, even at way deep  (80% DoD) cycles.


Did you mean $5600 ?
(rather than $3600)

Uhh, yeah, probably.

:)

cpm

Quote from: dgd on January 03, 2014, 12:59:31 AM
Quote from: cpm on January 01, 2014, 07:35:43 AM


I'm aware of LiFePo4, LiCoO2, LiNiMnCoO2, LiCoO2, LiNiCoAlO2 and a few other lithium battery chemistries,
All of which use different charging profiles.

I'm really unclear on what a Li ion battery is exactly.

There is an excellent explanation on wiki of what Li-ion means and the different Lithium chemistries.
The lower density and safer Lithium Iron Phosphate type seems the most popular in RE systems with cell capacities from about 20Ah to over 1000Ah available.

dgd

I suppose that's kinda my point.

Li-Ion is practically meaningless when trying to sort out the hows and whys of a battery bank.
There are a *lot* (relatively) of different chemistries, each with their own requirements.
I always balk when I read something has a Li Ion battery. Some Li Ion stuff does bad things, some does good things, all do expensive (though that is changing) things.

So, when the question is "Classic with Lithium Ion" I'm very curious "Which Lithium Ion?" as I too am very curious about using
LiFePO4. But that may not be what folks are using, maybe they are using some other Li Ion chemistry.

StrataNetNZ

Quote from: cpm on January 03, 2014, 08:20:43 PMSo, when the question is "Classic with Lithium Ion" I'm very curious "Which Lithium Ion?" as I too am very curious about using
LiFePO4. But that may not be what folks are using, maybe they are using some other Li Ion chemistry.


In case it's of any help to you, as far as I know these are the Li-Pos that we're using: http://aasolar.co.nz/AA%20Solar%20Lithium%20Deep%20Cycle%20Batteries.html

Cheers! :)

dgd

Quote from: StrataNetNZ on January 05, 2014, 03:15:57 PM
In case it's of any help to you, as far as I know these are the Li-Pos that we're using: http://aasolar.co.nz/AA%20Solar%20Lithium%20Deep%20Cycle%20Batteries.html

these are the LiFeYPo4 types.
Did you get a battery management system for these cells, that does cell charge balancing? Have you configured them as a single string?
I know that AA Solar advertise they can be charged with a normal lead acid battery charging system that goes through Bulk, Absorb and Float stages and they can even be EQ charged as necessary.
I'm interested in what you are doing with these apart from having your Studer CC provide the charge current.
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

StrataNetNZ

Quote from: dgd on January 05, 2014, 06:53:21 PMDid you get a battery management system for these cells, that does cell charge balancing? Have you configured them as a single string?
I know that AA Solar advertise they can be charged with a normal lead acid battery charging system that goes through Bulk, Absorb and Float stages and they can even be EQ charged as necessary.
I'm interested in what you are doing with these apart from having your Studer CC provide the charge current.

I don't think we have a battery management system. If I'm not mistaken, we just have two 6V batteries in series (although we're doing some major maintenance soon and this may change). AA Solar set the unit up for us; I don't know a heck of a lot about solar controllers. I was simply upgrading the controller from a cheap Chinese one that we originally had that wasn't doing what it was supposed to do.

Basically the Studer charges the bank and we also have the LAN monitoring unit attached so that we can remotely keep an eye on voltages and charge current etc - this is what the previous unit failed to do (even though the specifications clearly stated that it would!). After countless emails to and from the manufacturer in China who didn't understand their products enough we decided to do away with the Chinese chargers altogether.

We have this set up to run a wireless transmission tower in a rural area.

I hope this answers your questions! :)

tecnodave

StrataNetNZ,

Could I ask just what Chinese controller you are replacing, sounds a lot like EP Solar eTracer. I know the units well, I have 4 Tracers, anything you ask them they will respond with "How many units do you want?" They don't even know what an L-16 House Lighting battery is.  At least they are consistent.

tecno
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

StrataNetNZ

#21
You're right on the money there! Yes, they're the eTracer units. The people at EP Solar really are quite frustrating huh?

The specifications clearly state that they work over a routed network, when they do not. I've figured out that EP Solar's understanding of a routed network is plugging the eTracer and client computer into a router together - this is not routing! So for the network techs out there, they work over layer 2 ok but NOT layer 3! :(

Much frustration in trying to figure that out so hopefully this might help someone else! I've successfully used Studer and MidNite Classic over L3 with no issues.

tecnodave

#22
Quote from: StrataNetNZ on January 05, 2014, 08:59:02 PM
You're right on the money there! Yes, they're the eTracer units. The people at EP Solar really are quite frustrating huh?
My big mistake was thinking I had found a good controller and buying more of them instead of buying real stuff, I still have two Tracers in service but bought a Classic 150 to replace them. I just got a beta Kid so I am keeping one Tracer to do direct comparisons, but the Kid is beating up the Tracer up in many areas, not only in support, the Tracer is not programmable at all.  I had considered buying a 60 amp eTracer but at more money than the bare bones Morningstar it was no deal.  (eTracer $489. USD vs Morningstar TS-MPPT-60 at $485 USD) I ended up spending $90. USD more for the Classic 150 and do not regret it.  EP Solar does list a remote programmer for the eTracer but their engineers do not know anything about it! It is amazing how little they know about their own product.

I did get a response from another NZer about dealers having bins full of dead Tracers and eTracers, maybe that is where they belong!

If you get a chance to look at the manual for the Morningstar TS-MPPT line you will find many areas that are exactly copied in the eTracer manual, A completely copied product?  Well not the quality or support!

td
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

StrataNetNZ

#23
Well that all sounds ridiculous! We've had a total of 3 eTracers - one which has been replaced with the Studer (it was still working, we just needed L3). At our other solar site the eTracer was packing up (kept saying current error) so we've replaced it with another for the time being (waiting for grid power to be connected so that we can remove it but the power company are stuffing us around with it!). Our supplier has been happy with the reliability of them, and was very surprised that ours was faulty. Sometimes the error would come up within minutes, other times it would take a couple of weeks. Obviously our supplier came back saying they think it's fine... :-\

I'm not sure where you stand with Morningstar but our supplier now steers clear of them because they've had reliability issues. Apparently we also had one that died which we replaced with the eTracer (before my time here though).

The Classic 150 was a nice unit and I did like playing around with it for the time that we had it. Support has been great too - unlike the EP Solar people!



:edit: Sorry, I think we had a Classic 250. :)

StrataNetNZ

By the way, we now have a couple of TPDIN Web Monitors, which I've been very happy with! We're starting to put these in at our non-solar sites that have battery backup so that we can see what the battery banks are up to. They can't handle much DC current (we're using 60A and 80A chargers) but they can tell us the voltage and with a secondary power supply they can tell you if the grid goes down. They have flexible email alerts too - very handy!

http://tyconpower.com/products/systems.htm#TPDIN-Monitor-WEB

tecnodave

I do have one Morningstar and have absolutely no issues with it but it is a 30 amp PWM controller that is not at all suitable for my CdTe panels, that is why I bought the Tracers in the first place but they will not properly charge my main bank of L-16's. I use the Morningstar on a 110 watt backup system. Feature for feature the Classic 150 was the hands down winner. I looked at the Studer but they are very expensive here on the left coast. (Of the States)

td
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

StrataNetNZ

#26
Fair enough!

Quote from: tecnodave on January 05, 2014, 09:46:35 PMI looked at the Studer but they are very expensive here on the left coast. (Of the States)

Yep, with the Classics being made in US you probably get a very good price for them - here in NZ the Classics and Studers (including LAN module) are quite similar in price! Without the LAN module then the Studers are far cheaper than Classics here.

Off the top of my head (in NZ dollars) the 80A Studer is about a grand and the Classic 250 is $1,700... :-\ The Studer LAN module was another $600 or so I think...

eTracers are $800, for comparison.

tecnodave

I went to the website and looked at your monitors, very interesting. My system is very local and I am using the Whizbanj jr. With the Classic 150 as well as a several Bogart Engineering Tri-Metric monitors on my system. I really don't need remote monitoring as I am very local, I work within 15 miles of home base here in Santa Cruz County, California, left coast, USA, third rock, Milky Way.

td
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

StrataNetNZ

Haha cool :) We're a wireless internet service provider and have several rural transmission towers, most of which are at least an hours' drive away! So if battery levels are getting low then we need to know well in advance :)

tecnodave

That is a Hugh difference the Studer here was more than $1400 with taxes, duties and all. I paid $610. For my Classic 150 from Northern Arizona Wind Sun , no tax and $629.00 to my door!
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P