Inverter/Charger

Started by Herman, December 09, 2015, 05:19:44 AM

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Herman

Hi Cniemand

Just food for thought I spent a long time in the military and have use Lithium batteries with a lot of equipment and have had to drop a pack and run due to a cell that has decided to vent and run due to is toxic nature then having t dispose of everything after the event as it is contaminated, I know the Fire Brigade co ordain off a Toyota Prius when the have a bad smash due to the environmental impact,
yeah I am being negative about it but i have been in some incidents that made me realise what are we doing to the planet, nature and ourselves, no I do not like DR David Suzuki he is a doomsday preacher.

What I like about Ni-Fe cells as well is the electrolyte is an alkaline base easy to mix by yourself ad you just have to wash it off if you spill it on your self with immediately flush with 3% boric acid solution or drinking water, and the solution has no negative environmental impact as it just changes the PH level of your soil, so to dispose of it is relatively easy just dilute it and dispose but i may be wrong as i got most of that information from a 1902 manual, so I create no environmental impact as I and other Ni-Fe users have next to nothing to dispose of we don't have to wear crazy PPE your have to set up a safety process but I am certain a spill of a Ni-Fe solution is not as bad as a rupture and gas leakage of a Ni-Fe Cell there is good reading at The OtherPower forum http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146754.0 by Bill Blake.

The only thing I would like o be able to do is make distilled water because that is all I need

Remember
If we contaminate the soil we cannot eat
If we contaminate the air we cannot breath
and If we contaminate the water we cannot drink


Sorry I am Waffling

Cniemand

Quite so, Herman.

There is a variety of chemistries under the "lithium" umbrella. Those early Li-ion types that made laptops burst in flames... When I speak of lithium I talk about LiFePo4. Stable. You really have to abuse them to get them to be dangerous. As far as Toxicity with batteries and Earth-stewardship, I would say that through renewables we do more good for the air, water, land than by not. Pb is toxic. All things of value end up being recycled. Lead Acid batteries incredibly so. Lithiums will end up in the same.

:) I'm not against NiFe. Just curious on its attributes and why others choose a certain chemistry over another. I was having the same conversation with another person over Aquions Flow Battery.
OFF-GRID @ 8500FT : 2000w Array : 8 - CS6P-250P ; VFX 3648 ; WBjr ; MN CL200 #6738 ; FW #2079  
48v LiFePo4 : 16 - CALB CA 100 aH in Series - 5 kWh ; No Active BMS - Bottom Balanced
Charging Parameters : Bulk - 55v, Absorb - 5 EndAmps @ 55v, Float - 54v or 3.375v per Cell : ZERO EQUALIZE

Herman

Hey

I got hooked by the Ni-Fe when I was on a permaculture course here in AUS unfortunately I met a idiot who blew smoke and used mirrors about solar and the wonders of the stuff he was using this also clouded the vision of all newbies like me that have never been on solar the only thing that was decent out of it where the Ni-Fe cells so due to my lack of understanding of it I had this supposed expert mainly install it BIG Mistake he totally undersized the alarm bells rang when he was unsure of what MPPT to use so i contacted Iron Edison and asked what they use for their cells and that how i found MidNite which I purchased it, anyway to cut a long story short he left a sour taste in may mouth about solar (btw I am totally off the grid) so the more knowledge I acquired I realised he was a leach to society and a poor advocate for solar he was sent packing (er well ran away) he not only did me over, so I could say Conman who used smoke and mirrors.

when this was happening the only thing that worked well where the Ni-Fe cells even though i had to help charge them, so I got the utmost respects for them.

So first is to put larger wattage to replace the 12 DCH BX 65, 65 W  with new solar panels on the roof using TS CIGS SERIES 160 W as I have 12 of them that has no cost and getting another eight for minimal cost, to get the sizing right to get enough power  to run the house during daylight and charge the cells (no Gen) this also means getting a new charger invertor selctronics SP Pro series which can handle 68 Volt DC and not have a hissy fit this allows me to equalize with no power loss BTW he installed 240 AH Ni-Fe and try and get them to work for 24 H with no assistance. The saving grace they work with a 24 volt bank with a transfer switch so I can swap from one bank to another automatically.

I doubt the Ni-Fe have enough depth to do the 24 Hour thing so I will be probably be changing them for 800 AH jobs so by doing this I am trying to keep the cost down.

why i did not pick up this idiot earlier was due to a condition I have, PS not crazy like Halfcrazy   

Then piss off all his crap and hopefully get some of the cost back and I have a Person that is very interested in the 240 AH cells which I think he plans to use the 48 volt bank which I have into two 24 volt banks in parallel to run a pumping station on his property out west and he is in no real hurry (by doing the parallel thing he gets 480 AH) as he only fills up 3 tanks with water and he is sick of doing it manually (starting a water pump and waiting for the tanks to fill) he cab=n use a electric pump with a auto start and shut off switch.

I just sort of hope I have this right as I don't want to upset my better half any more.

I hope that makes sense and thanks to all the forum users it is helping me to understand the beauty of solar 



Cniemand

Sadly, there is a number of crooks inside the RE and EV movements. Plenty of money lost with good intentions. :/
OFF-GRID @ 8500FT : 2000w Array : 8 - CS6P-250P ; VFX 3648 ; WBjr ; MN CL200 #6738 ; FW #2079  
48v LiFePo4 : 16 - CALB CA 100 aH in Series - 5 kWh ; No Active BMS - Bottom Balanced
Charging Parameters : Bulk - 55v, Absorb - 5 EndAmps @ 55v, Float - 54v or 3.375v per Cell : ZERO EQUALIZE

Herman

O well Rainbow Power Company Balked at earning money and do not want to touch it as they do not understand the Battery chemistry and feel they will be held responsible if anything goes wrong which I don not blame them in that aspect as they have a reputation to look after.

However I did mention to them on numerous occasions if any thing goes wrong I wont bet blaming  any one apart from the initial installer as he put us into this predicament and they are unwilling to read up on the Ni-Fe Cells yet they sit there and bag the information I give them as Rubbish so much for a supposed forward thinking industry that states it looks after the environment and the population yet unwilling to even look at the most environmentally friendly battery that has ever been made

So no selectroincs SP Pro from them Ill Just go the OutBack  VFXR Series 3000VA 48 volt Inverter Charger - Outback Power VFXR3048E which also goes up to 68 V DC and is $3000 cheaper their loss my gain

RossW

Herman, I'm a bit south of you (Albury, on the NSW/Vic border), and have been living and working 100% offgrid for over a decade. My original inverter was a RAPS5 - manufactured by Power Solutions Australia (now defunct) and supplied by (as it turns out) rainbow power company. They were pretty much the only ones prepared to sell me the inverter at the time, without demanding their people install it.

At the time, I was using 48 x 300AH 2V hawker cells (VRLA) from a datacentre, as a 48V bank. They were on their last legs, but they were cheap ($500 the lot) and got me through construction and the first couple of years.

About 2 years ago, I was in the fortunate position to get rid of all my lead-acid cells (by now, replaced with newer but still previously used 2V/500AH AGM), with a bank of 16 x 300AH LFP (LiFePO4) "Lithium" cells. If I knew then, what I know now, I'd have just got the full capacity I wanted but was to scared to buy.

12 months ago my old inverter gave up. No smoke, no bang, just plain stopped working. I was able to buy an SP-PRO 481 directly from selectronics themselves at short notice. Make no mistake, it's a very nice inverter/charger. So many improvements over the "state of the art" stuff around 10 years ago!

If you are competent, or can hire competent help, you shouldn't have too much difficulty installing the SP-PRO yourself. It didn't take me long to get it unpacked, mounted, cabled, configured and running. I needed help getting the old thing off the wall because of its location and weight. I could have put the SP-PRO up by myself with a struggle, but two of us made light work of it.

As others have said, LiFePO4 (Lithium IRON, or often just LFP) is nothing like most of the other Lithium ION cells you're used to. I very nearly purchased NiFe quite some years ago, but to me, the huge difference from charge to discharge voltage just made it too difficult (especially since I had an inverter that wouldn't do it), and the very low cycle efficiency was a deal-breaker. Not so bad when you have enough sun, but down here I often get extended periods without enough, while simultaneously having a situation where I cannot "choose not to use power" - all the business machines need to run, regardless - so the cells inefficiency means far more operating cost when burning propane to run the genset.

I'm seeing about 97% cycle efficiency on my LFPs after 2 years of solid use...
3600W on 6 tracking arrays.
7200W on 2 fixed array.
Midnite Classic 150
Outback Flexmax FM80
16 x LiFePO4 600AH cells
16 x LiFePO4 300AH cells
Selectronics SP-PRO 481 5kW inverter
Fronius 6kW AC coupled inverter
Home-brew 4-cyl propane powered 14kVa genset
2kW wind turbine

Herman

Thanks Ross, I have had to reassess everything I have my first problem I identified the installer short changed us on our panels by installing 12 BX 65 W about 52 Volt open circuit if lucky which barley put out 1 KW a day even in full sun, so first thing first I am in the process of remedying that with 10 TS_ Cigs 160 W thin film panels 87 Volt Open circuit these I have sourced and an exceptionally low price which I will be installing in the next few days, unfortunately they will be facing NNE as due to the geographical location So They will be sitting on frames at a 15 DEG angle to capturing all the morning sun and hopefully most of the afternoon sun, then logging how much power I am getting which should be substantially more than what we have been, this will also be hooked my Ni-FE bank which is 48 Volt bank.

The next step is to set up all the BX 65 to feed into my 24 Volt lead acid bank one of the things I will be doing is removing all the installers soldered joins and dodgy wiring and using MC 4 clips ans he cut all the factory installed one off and hope that these preform better than the old poly crystal panels that are charging them at the moment as the BX panels are far more shade tolerant than the ploy's,the next step is to fix up all the wiring and put in some decent breakers and fuses where they are supposed to go.

Then I will look at the the invertor charger   I an leaning toward the Selctronics PRO but by the time i have finished the above work I have to hope I wil have enough funds for it or I will be going for the Outback Power VFXR3048E which has the same operating DC voltage as the selectronics but only a 3 kw invertor do I need a 5 KW one (not really) plus the mate 3, I will keep you guys posted on the progress.

So summing it up I basically got stung and spent good money after bad, now I have to fix a system (spending More money where I should not but have to) to make it safe and have it easy to operate for when I am not home so my more sensible half came just turn the key on the Honda generator and it charges the batteries if required on both of the banks of batteries.

The one plus out of this whole experience I scoured the MidNite Classic 150 from DC Solutions in Melbourne not him and when the system failed he was placing the whole blame on the MidNite not his terrible work which caused the short which melted his soldered joins on 6 panels so much for making things waterproof he forgot what I said to him if it is waterproof it also does not let water out especially when you have a large open pipe at one end.

I would like to thank forum for providing information and pointing me in the right direction and the information that you all share especially .mike90045 and Halfcrazy Cheers will try to post some stuuf later as in before and after shots. 

mike90045

I wish i'd heard about the TS_ Cigs 160 W thin film panels BEFORE you bought them.   I hope you get 5 years out of them, that will buy you time to reassess your whole setup
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

Herman

I wish I had heard of the TS_ Cigs 160 W earlier as well, performance wise by the spec sheet nearly 3 times better than what I had, cost wise cheaper than what i had so I cant complain about that and the cost was far cheaper than the local supplier was offering.


Cniemand

@ Ross: 97% is about what I am seeing as well with my bank being on since June 2013.

For those of you with systems that have been operational for a decade or so, what are you seeing for longevity of Components? I've only been off-grid for three years now. I am wondering what the true life is of a Charge controller and inverters? I use a Midnite CC 200v and a VFX 3648. Is there any sort of typical expectancy or has that changed over the last few years as components are beyond the qualities that were just ten years ago as Ross makes note?

Cloud
OFF-GRID @ 8500FT : 2000w Array : 8 - CS6P-250P ; VFX 3648 ; WBjr ; MN CL200 #6738 ; FW #2079  
48v LiFePo4 : 16 - CALB CA 100 aH in Series - 5 kWh ; No Active BMS - Bottom Balanced
Charging Parameters : Bulk - 55v, Absorb - 5 EndAmps @ 55v, Float - 54v or 3.375v per Cell : ZERO EQUALIZE

mike90045

Quote from: mike90045 on January 06, 2016, 04:02:51 PM
I wish i'd heard about the TS_ Cigs 160 W thin film panels BEFORE you bought them.   I hope you get 5 years out of them, that will buy you time to reassess your whole setup


Sorry, this was supposed to be in Comic Sans (sarcasm) font.
The thin film panels are noted for being both high voltage and short lifetime.
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

Cniemand

OFF-GRID @ 8500FT : 2000w Array : 8 - CS6P-250P ; VFX 3648 ; WBjr ; MN CL200 #6738 ; FW #2079  
48v LiFePo4 : 16 - CALB CA 100 aH in Series - 5 kWh ; No Active BMS - Bottom Balanced
Charging Parameters : Bulk - 55v, Absorb - 5 EndAmps @ 55v, Float - 54v or 3.375v per Cell : ZERO EQUALIZE

clockmanFrance

Cniemand,

A couple of years ago, the CEO of SMA Germany actually came out in Public and said,  "SMA expect a life of only 10 years with all their products".

Now whether he was saying that for the shareholders and his sales teams, so his company would always be selling stuff and it looks good on the books, I do not know.

Personally I would have thought 20 years as a minimum, but hay ho, the World seems to only exist by making profits and taxing at every stage.

Seems to defeat the whole philosophy of Sustainable Renewable Energy. 

Westbranch

#28
That 10 years seems to be an industry standard for electronics goods these days.
I guess we need to consider ourselves lucky if we get more than that?... :o
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

Cniemand

OFF-GRID @ 8500FT : 2000w Array : 8 - CS6P-250P ; VFX 3648 ; WBjr ; MN CL200 #6738 ; FW #2079  
48v LiFePo4 : 16 - CALB CA 100 aH in Series - 5 kWh ; No Active BMS - Bottom Balanced
Charging Parameters : Bulk - 55v, Absorb - 5 EndAmps @ 55v, Float - 54v or 3.375v per Cell : ZERO EQUALIZE