off grid in germany

Started by binkino, April 24, 2016, 08:19:26 PM

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binkino

yes they all look very similar, only in some details changed, like with or w/o lcd or with or w/o breaker and in other places in the front plate.


Yes that's true, having multiple batteries might be better. If one goes bye bye, I have the other "eggs in the nest" ;)

The price for a 5kWh is about 2.000â,¬ and the 10kWh is 3.560â,¬
(troday â,¬ and $ are very close)

kilos - a "over the thumb calculation" is, kilos = 1/2 of pound , then this number minus 10% (not really exactly, but very close) ;-)


I have now also asked the seller, if the battery has a WebUI. It doesn't have ;(
I have seen this in videos, that some batteries have this WebUi. In this WebUI you can see the cells, volts and temps., change settings...

Now I have asked him, if there is a "Modbus" or similar, like we have this on your Classics. So I can get the datas, and possible add it to the display (like my LCARS, thanks to Wade)


I hope, I'm doing the right thing with the LiFePo4...
There is a point you feel lost ...

But when the old batteries are once gone, I have clean up everything, checked the Classics, inverter and that all, I can go the next step.
PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php

ClassicCrazy

Well the similar looking batteries here in USA that have displays show all the individual cell voltages and the internal sensor temperatures, soc, cycles, etc.
The last batches that they were selling did not have displays, and now they are importing the ones with displays that seem to be newer generation bms .
And there is a software that you can use to see the same data and maybe more ( I haven't tried it yet ).
So maybe the batteries you are looking at don't have the same bms in them ?
But if they spit out data on those ports there may be a way to get all that data onto a computer.
If the LifePO4 cells are as good as is usually claimed then you won't go wrong compared to lead acid - so many advantages in more usable energy , stable output voltage, longer cycle life, etc.
Not to mention the best thing - not having to mess around with watering them, checking electrolyte, etc !
I think the bms in a lot of these are made by Seplos and they have youtube videos by them explaining how they work.
https://youtu.be/KkDIuMpIx_8

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

binkino

So ... the old batteries are gone now.
Cool guy picked them up from the basement ("cellar"?) and now I can start cleaning up and start setting up the Classics for coming batteries.


I have watched his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsE1JPGg7Co
In the datasheet of the batteries I am interested in is written:
Charging volts: 54,0V +/-0,2V
Systemvoltage: 48,0 V
Cut off volts: 37,5 V (it will never be so low, as the inverter switches back at min. 46V or 47V, depends my setting on the inverter.
If I have seen it correct in discharging kurves, 46 or 47 Volts is still safe, but close to the point, when the LiFePo4 will be empty very soon.
I think, I will start switching back to grid at 48 Volts and see, how the batteries are doing.
If they are not so deep discharged, they should last longer. If I can use 47V, I will take this too. But between 48 and 47Volts will not be much energy I can use? So 48V should be good?

The charging amps is 50 Amps and maximum 100 Amps.



I have now setup both Classics (connected to a 13.8V PSU) in the Status Panel:

Basic:
48 Volts Battery
Absorb: 54 Volts (but I am not sure about the time? ShouldnÃ,,t matter, because the BMS is doing the charging.)
Equalize: 54 Volts (can't be lower) Time = 00:00 , no auto. So never happens.
Float volts: has set itself to  53,9 Volts

Advanced
- I use a WBJr. only on the South Classic, not on the East Classic as this will not make sens (was the topic back then)

Compensate EQ volts, not needed.
Temp window is still 20°C
Compensation shows 54 Volts.


Battery status meter: I have no datas, so I set it to 100% for now. 90% might be a good value for LiFepo4?
and as I plan to use 2 x 200Ah, I set it to 400Ah (old System was 575Ah)
and no compensation %/C


Tech
MPPT Mode: is still on 5 min sweep (ok?)
Ending Amps - I am not sure, it is still at 11,5 Amps.
It is active on the South Classic, as the WBJr. is connected to it only.

Rebulk Volts: 54 Volt

Days between rebulk: 0

Offsets are all 0


FOLLOW ME ...
Does it make sense to "Follow Master's Battery Sensor"? Or is this only in combination with 'Follow me'

(yes I still havn't read the manual again ... please be patience with me ;)



Correct me, if I am wrong, please:

The normal charging current is 50 Amps per battery. They can also handle 100 Amps.
One Classic has a max. charging amps of 79 Amps. I set them to 50 amps.
If one Classic charges, both batteries will get 25 amps.
If both Classics are sharging with 50 amps, there are 100 amps on the wire, but each battery will only get 50 amps.
Also if the 50 amps will be exceeded, there is a big buffer to the 100 amps maximum.

So I only need to set it to a fix voltage of 54 volts, and the bms will do the rest.


The BMS has 2 stages.
#1 constant amps to reach 54 volts. (will it draw amps until it is below 54 volts and knows how much amps are available tio charge?)
#2 54 volts constant charging, until the charging amps are 10 amps

Chargig time is 5hrs ("as a refference")

PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php

binkino

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on April 02, 2022, 01:47:16 PM
Well the similar looking batteries here in USA that have displays show all the individual cell voltages and the internal sensor temperatures, soc, cycles, etc.
The last batches that they were selling did not have displays, and now they are importing the ones with displays that seem to be newer generation bms .
And there is a software that you can use to see the same data and maybe more ( I haven't tried it yet ).
I am waiting fpr a reply from the seller, if there is a software.
But I would like to try it ;)

I was also thinking about the connectors the batteries have.
But it would need someone knowing hoe to programm it, could use a ESP32 and connect it to the CAN or COM of the batteries, the ESP32 hooks in the Wifi and I could get the datas on this way?
The batteries have no Lan ;(

Quote
So maybe the batteries you are looking at don't have the same bms in them ?

When I have the batteries, I can open the case and make some pictures ;)

Quote
But if they spit out data on those ports there may be a way to get all that data onto a computer.
EPS32 or a PI - but someone will have to write the programms ;(

Quote
If the LifePO4 cells are as good as is usually claimed then you won't go wrong compared to lead acid - so many advantages in more usable energy , stable output voltage, longer cycle life, etc.
Not to mention the best thing - not having to mess around with watering them, checking electrolyte, etc !
I think the bms in a lot of these are made by Seplos and they have youtube videos by them explaining how they work.
https://youtu.be/KkDIuMpIx_8

Larry

yes I have seen the kurves of discharge, the acid batteries can't hold their voltage so long :(
That often lead to the switch back to grid ("Peukert"), but there was energy left in the battery.

Thanks for the link :)
PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php

ClassicCrazy

I am still studying all the info on lithium batteries.
Lots of different schemes and opinions out there.
Read some info posted on the forums here from Steve S for reference and comparisons
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=5690.0
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=5751.msg52489#msg52489
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?board=63.0

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

binkino

Now still waiting for my bank...
Should be ok this week.

I kept an eye on the 10kWh battery ... the seller doesn't reply anymore to my questions, after I asked him about the possibility to have a look to the BMS via a browser, like other batteries have. He told me it has not but I had some more questions.

I am new on this topic and before I buy something I want to know exactly, what I get and how to use it.
And after the price raised now from 3.560 to 3.780 Euros, he can keep them. Not the game I play.
Seriously?
His 5kWh battery is sold out now and he increases the price for the 10kWh battery.


There is a small solution for the monitoring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlExe2zcifM (german video, but link to a page: https://averagemaker.com/2018/03/wemos-d1-mini-setup.html and Github: https://github.com/irekzielinski/Pylontech-Battery-Monitoring)


I first thought, that could work with the 10kWh battery. But they have a regular dis-/charging amps of only 50 amps and 100 amps for short time.

So I was searching for other batteries. Hard to get some, most are sold out or too expensive.
I also saw a offer of the Pylontech. They are probably also widespread and better known and the ESP (monitoring) works with this BMS.

Also in a talk with another EV driver yesterday it would make more sense to go with more then one battery.
Like my first ideas to this and it was recommended to me before.

And I don't have to think about max. amps and so on, I have a redunancity with more then one battery.
The Pylontech US3000C only have 3.5kWh, but if I install 3 or 4 of them that should work?

Before buying these, I explained the shop seller what I plan to do to get his opinion.
(if later something is wrong, I can recall him his opinion)
Let's wait for his answer :D

PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php

binkino

I was just looking around on the Wiring Diagrams page  https://www.midnitesolar.com/documentsA.php?menuItem=documents&docCat_ID=31&docCatName=Wiring%20Diagrams%20-%20SMA%20/%20PDF ... is there a way to connect the Classic to the LiFePo4 BMS?
There is a "COM ADAPTER" in the drawings ... mh...
(I am sure I missunderstand something but this let me wake up for a moment :) )


The batteries have an contact for "stop charging" - I could parallel wire them from the batteries to both classics (via a 2 switched contact relais. I am sure I can't directly connect the AUX on the Classics in parallel)
So if one battery is full charged, it can stop both Classics to stop chagring
But is this needed? The BMS will stop the charging.
PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php

ClassicCrazy

I spent long time yesterday just making long cables and adapters to plug into the new jakiper battery I have.
Finally I got the supplied windows  software to work on the RS232 jack  on battery  to computer with usb to rs232 adapter.
I had no success getting data so far from the rs485 jacks on it. But I think I realize now that it needs polling from modbus software to get it to talk.
Just tonight I found this project https://github.com/KlausLi/Esp-Seplos-Controller
and if you get a battery that has the Seplos type this may work for you too.
It is all in German but I translated and flashed an esp8266 with his program and will try it  tomorrow on bms . I already had the rs485 adapter he showed ( used them on my peacefair energy monitors) He has youtube videos on it too but of course I can't understand it too much.
Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

ClassicCrazy

Quote from: binkino on April 05, 2022, 08:31:56 PM
I was just looking around on the Wiring Diagrams page  https://www.midnitesolar.com/documentsA.php?menuItem=documents&docCat_ID=31&docCatName=Wiring%20Diagrams%20-%20SMA%20/%20PDF ... is there a way to connect the Classic to the LiFePo4 BMS?
There is a "COM ADAPTER" in the drawings ... mh...
(I am sure I missunderstand something but this let me wake up for a moment :) )


The batteries have an contact for "stop charging" - I could parallel wire them from the batteries to both classics (via a 2 switched contact relais. I am sure I can't directly connect the AUX on the Classics in parallel)
So if one battery is full charged, it can stop both Classics to stop chagring
But is this needed? The BMS will stop the charging.

There was big discussion on the solar diy group about ways to shut off charging to battery. But with good controller like Classic you may not need to . A few people seem to have had  problems with some cheap mppt controllers giving full pv voltage way over the bms rating and ruining batteries.

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

binkino

yes sounds also interesting, let me know how it works


I asked the guy in the video.
There is only one ESP needed, because the batteries are connected to each other with the data cable and the ESP gets all datas of all batteries from one BMS.



I have now updated both Classics to latest 2193 firmware (yes this is 4 years old now haha)
I played around in the menu, I remember there was something with voice. 'Test' did nothing , only displaying 'TEST' in the LCD.
But this doesn't matter. I didn't want this feature, so I didn't do the update 4 years ago when the version was available. (Beep Sound works, I tested this)
As there is still nothing more I can do, I cleaned the housing of the Classics, now look like new again.
The silver paint is gone, because of the battery acid, but no drops came into the classics (I have seen no damages / corrosions / things that look not normal)




Yes the Classic are robust ;)
I have them now since end of 2014?
Hard to find devices today they last that long :D
PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php

ClassicCrazy

There is a voice data file that you have to also load into the Classic mngp to get it to talk. Somewhere there is a topic where it has  the links to those files.
The voice is useful and also not useful and can be a bother.
It is useful if you want to know what your Classic is doing - it will tell you if you are in the area.
There are some time limits so it won't talk at night or too early that you can set.
Midnite programmed in some funny sound effects on one of the modes , though some of them can startle you if you don't know what it is from.
I leave the talker on out in the shed on classic there  , but I have another mngp remoted inside and I have that voice turned off.
There was another beta update that got rid of an annoying tone every time you pressed a button when in talking mode version 2197 . Midnite never officially released that one but it is on forums somewhere and I have been using it long time. Maybe they incorporated tone noise change into the released version ? Not sure.
Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

mike90045

When a Li battery is full, you only have minutes to stop the charging before battery damage occurs.
  The BMS can do this, but only in a "brute force" way by disconnecting the battery.   

When the BMS disconnects the battery, the loads ( Batt ) on the solar charge controllers "vanishes" and leaves the battery terminals disconnected/floating, only connected to the inverter's battery terminals.  some controllers and inverters can handle this abuse  ( batt connection rising to 97VDC or whatever your PV Voc is )  Some can't.

Same sort of thing being overly discharged, the BMS only cares about saving the battery, the rest of the system goes dark.  Maybe you wake up and fix it before sun comes up and lights up the panels. 

Some BMS will reconnect automatically, some need a reset button pushed, some need a computer to reset them
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

binkino

#27
ok thank you, Mike

so what can I do to use these batteries?

Please help my thoughts :)

The charging starts on the East Classic in the morning. Let's say the charging voltage is 54 volts.
The BMS in the batteries regulates the charging process untill the 100% SOC is reached and stop charging.
Don't they have a circuit for charging (that is open then) and one circuit for energy delivering?

The Classic can recognise, if the charging amps fall below let's say 10 amps and stop the charging (the South Classic is using the WBJr)

But my East Classic has no WBJr. (I have one in the box, but something in the past was about the Classics wouldn't count the energy correct? So long ago)

If "charging" stops, the voltage must drop to xx volts? (Float?)

So should I install and use the second WBJr. to enable the East Classic stop charging?

I could FOLLOW ME connect them, but I also don't remember why in my situation I shouldn't do it back then...


But this is also a complete new situation.


---------------

My system:
1 Classic 200 lite for East
1 Classic 200 für South with WBJr.
The WBJr. for meassuring the ending of the charging process, as it charges after the East Classic.
PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php

mike90045

as far as I know, every BMS is different, and you will have to research exactly how your chosen model will behave.   But most will have a trigger signal to command a charge controller to terminate charging.   But thats more wires and maybe relays and such.
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

binkino

#29
2 days ago I described my situation and system to the shop that sells the 3.5kWh Pylontec modules
Today they reply, that this would work.
But I am still waiting for my bank...
PV-OUTPUT: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=38617
Classic Lite 200 + Classic 200 + Easun ISolar-SMX-II-5.6KW + 12x240Wp + 12x255Wp + 2x10kWh LFP
http://a68k.de/Solar/Monitor_LC2.php