Author Topic: Need configuration advice for Classic install for independent dual PV arrays  (Read 799 times)

echoth

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Hi all.  I need Classic 200 and wiring install assistance extending my 16yr old system.

I have an existing solar installation that I am adding the Classic 200 and additional 2.8kw panels as another battery charging source.  The existing system is 3kw 240vac dual Trace 5548 inverter setup.   Dual Trace C40 40amp controllers and the inverter control charging from panel array 1.  Bulk/Float voltages and timings in Classic for panel array 2 will be set up identical as possible to existing configuration.

Reading the Classic installation manual REV 2056
Page 25 diagram and wording says battery positive from Classic must go to inverter and not to battery +
Page 29 shows the Classic wired to battery positive terminal for Clipper wind source

In my existing system, the Whisper wind generator + and - DC out hooks straight to battery terminals as DC charge source #2.  This new PV array will be DC source #3.

1.   For my setup wouldn’t I just connect the battery positive from Classic 200 to battery + as an additional charging source aka Clipper Diagram on page 29.?

2.   Also, in the diagram on pg 25, is the DC shunt hooked to the Classic and Battery negative necessary for proper Classic amp/volt monitoring operation? I already have external Trimetric meters hooked to other shunts in the existing system and don’t see in the Classic install instructions where an additional wire connects between the classic and shunt screw for metering .

Thanks
Tim
Dual Trace 5548 Inverters, Trace C40 controllers, Whisper 3000 Wind, 24kwh SunExtender AGM, 3.6kw Panasonic HIT240S, Classic 200, Trimetric meters
Dual Trace 5548 Inverters (48v), Whisper 3000 Wind, 44kwh SunExtender AGM (24x2volt), 3.6kw Panasonic HIT240S (15x240w), 7.4kw Q-Cell panels (24x310w), 3 Classic 200, Trimetric meters

TomW

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I poked Ryan on this, hopefully he can give you a hand on this.

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

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24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

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BioPower

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I just installed my first Classic yesterday, however I am not a noob with this stuff. The diagram shows positive from classic going to the positive bus bar via DC breaker 17. So you will have the battery breaker/disconnect between the + bus bar and the battery. Your Inverter would connect to the + Bus bar also via it's own breaker.

"21 = Battery Positive Bus Bar. (This is where we would wire the Battery positive side of the Classic, as well as where we would wire up DC loads. Do NOT wire the battery cable to this bus bar)."

Diagram on 29 is the same but does not show the battery breaker/disconnect in circuit.

Replacing the Trace controllers with a classic would increase your solar production too.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 06:13:57 PM by BioPower »
9.5 KW Solar Panels, 2 Midnite Classic 150, 8 KW self-built 8 KW Inverter,  5KW AC coupled grid tie Inverter, Exide 775AH @C5 48V forklift battery

echoth

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Thanks Biopower.  Actually I have thought of MPPT to replace the PWM C40s but I wouldn't gain much if anything.  My current system is 48 Unisolar 64w panels and those have a Vpm of 16.5 so I'm already near my 14.4 max bulk charge battery voltage at sun peak.  Sigh. MPPT didn't exist in 1999 like it does now nor the 50v panels. 

I have the disconnects in place on the plus wire (PV and battery), I was just questioning the controller to battery connections for this new addition the diagram being a little confusing.
Actually the Clipper diagram I see is not "the same" and it shows disconnects/breakers. Document revision 1933 pgs 23 and 25 are the diagrams in question or revision 2056 pg 25,29 .  Not sure we're looking at same thing unless I misunderstand your comment.  Both Classic + and - DC outs go straight to battery + and - via disconnects and bus bars.  No inverter is shown and actually this is how I've been running for 16 years with my wind as DC source #2 to the PV array/trace system. Right or wrong, in my mind this PV DC source would do the same.  My original question #1 was the pg 25 diagram showing the plus going to the inverter with no connection to the battery.

The Light comes ON
After looking over the classic diagram on 25 I finally see what was confusing me was the image was clipped in the document and the red wire going down from breaker 15 is the same wire going to the battery +.  The image was bottom clipped or oversized when placed on the PDF document page. The right side of the classic controller image is also right clipped.

Classic Battery + connects straight to battery plus via disconnect 17 and busbar 21.  The wording on page 24
"21 - ....Do NOT wire the battery cable to this bus bar)." was actually misleading to me because via the diagram it is connected. I misinterpreted it to say no battery voltage should arrive at the busbar which of course would mean no PV power will ever charge the battery. Duh.  I believe the wording is intended to say "Connect the actual battery + wire to the disconnect 15, not straight to the busbar.  Lower gauge wire will come from the controller to the disconnect 15 via the busbar to complete the circuit and is always shorted.  (Technically the battery + AND breaker 15 COULD be connected to the busbar and it would work the same.)
Inverter disconnect 15 output is at the top, battery input is at the bottom which is where the busbar 21 is connected.  The only disconnect between the Classic and the battery is 17 which makes sense. The 4/0 battery cable is connected to disconnect 15.

My only other question on this topic is the shunt need, question #2.  Not originally asked, I have a big question regarding GFP usage in my system which will be a different post and requires a diagram.  My existing trace system has no GFP and battery/PV negative are all grounded to GEC which would negate the functionality of the Classic GFP as I see it.
Dual Trace 5548 Inverters (48v), Whisper 3000 Wind, 44kwh SunExtender AGM (24x2volt), 3.6kw Panasonic HIT240S (15x240w), 7.4kw Q-Cell panels (24x310w), 3 Classic 200, Trimetric meters

tecnodave

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echoth,

That wording confused me too. What they are trying to imply is in a MidNite E-panel the battery plus goes to the 250 amp inverter main breaker. Another wire attaches to this same terminal on inverter breaker which goes to the positive buss bar. The reason for this is the buss bar is adequate for Classic plus DC loads but not for the inverter input. The 250 amps that the inverter can draw will overheat that buss bar.  Hope this clears up that issue.

I do not use a epanel. My controller outputs go to 100 amp breakers in MNDC15 panel then straight to battery. The inverter has its own feed cables. By having separate wires the Classic sees the battery better, not the voltage sag caused by inverter draw.

My Whizbang is right at the battery and all negative wires go directly there.

Basically what I am accomplishing doing this is all major power producing/using devices have separate feeds so they sense battery voltage better.  Wiring is only slightly oversized at 2 ga for the controllers and 250MCM for main inverters.

Works very well, much less tweaking stuff...

David
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 2 Suntech 280 24v AGM 105 a.h. Exeltech Inv.
#4 Kid/WBjr 2 Suntech 280 12v AGM 105 a.h.

BioPower

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Yes Ecoth, Solar has come a long way since last century, PV panels and the electronics are really good, time for batteries to improve as well. Maybe someone else would know for sure but there would have to be some gain on those old panels with MPPT, particularly when your battery voltage is low in the morning and cloudy days.
9.5 KW Solar Panels, 2 Midnite Classic 150, 8 KW self-built 8 KW Inverter,  5KW AC coupled grid tie Inverter, Exide 775AH @C5 48V forklift battery

Halfcrazy

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Hi all.  I need Classic 200 and wiring install assistance extending my 16yr old system.

I have an existing solar installation that I am adding the Classic 200 and additional 2.8kw panels as another battery charging source.  The existing system is 3kw 240vac dual Trace 5548 inverter setup.   Dual Trace C40 40amp controllers and the inverter control charging from panel array 1.  Bulk/Float voltages and timings in Classic for panel array 2 will be set up identical as possible to existing configuration.

Reading the Classic installation manual REV 2056
Page 25 diagram and wording says battery positive from Classic must go to inverter and not to battery +
Page 29 shows the Classic wired to battery positive terminal for Clipper wind source

In my existing system, the Whisper wind generator + and - DC out hooks straight to battery terminals as DC charge source #2.  This new PV array will be DC source #3.

1.   For my setup wouldn’t I just connect the battery positive from Classic 200 to battery + as an additional charging source aka Clipper Diagram on page 29.?

2.   Also, in the diagram on pg 25, is the DC shunt hooked to the Classic and Battery negative necessary for proper Classic amp/volt monitoring operation? I already have external Trimetric meters hooked to other shunts in the existing system and don’t see in the Classic install instructions where an additional wire connects between the classic and shunt screw for metering .

Thanks
Tim
Dual Trace 5548 Inverters, Trace C40 controllers, Whisper 3000 Wind, 24kwh SunExtender AGM, 3.6kw Panasonic HIT240S, Classic 200, Trimetric meters

Yes you can go to Battery + with the Classic, That is actually preferred. I will look at the manual and see why it says that. For the Shunt you do not "Need" to connect the Classic to the shunt but if you wanted to you can get the WBjr and connect the shunt to the Classic. You would get SOC info like you do now on the trimetric as well as End Amps if needed
Changing the way wind turbines operate one smoke filled box at a time

echoth

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Thanks Halfcrazy, and others for info.  Sometimes I do feel 'halfcrazy' too.  Will look at the WhzbJr.
Dual Trace 5548 Inverters (48v), Whisper 3000 Wind, 44kwh SunExtender AGM (24x2volt), 3.6kw Panasonic HIT240S (15x240w), 7.4kw Q-Cell panels (24x310w), 3 Classic 200, Trimetric meters