Narrowing down replacement batteries (Rolls S-1660 / 2 volt)...

[alyaz]

Hi gang.

Our Davidson 2 volt batteries (24 volt bank) is starting to get a bit tired.  Ten years old now and since we have moved in we now have two electric fridges and two small chest freezers.  We are running the diesel gen about two hours every day in this crappy weather to top up the batteries (and of course we are throwing in some wash and watching some TV when the opportunity is there).

Anyway, while we have been happy with the Davidson batteries, I thought we would get a couple prices for comparison sake.

Does anyone have any opinion on these flooded Rolls 2 volt batteries?  The ‘footprint’ for the Rolls would fit our battery box etc.

http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/S-1660.pdf

They are Rolls S-1660 / 2 volt batteries (would get 12).  1284 a/hrs.

Guess part of me says just use the gen more than we have in the past and make the Davidsons last another year or two...

Thanks.

[russ_drinkwater]

I got some rolls 1350 amp hour 2 volt batteries cheap earlier this year.
Stored, not charged and heavily sulphated and not accepting any charge.
Had been that way for over a year.
Took a gamble and bought them.
Out of 24 cells I had one fail to return from the dead!
Never would have been able to afford them unless heavily discounted!
Point is those batteries for my money are super tough and even allowing for some stratification damage are working a treat now.
If money was no object I would buy fresh ones without a second thought!
My two bobs worth.
Steer clear of raylittes!
Trojan carbon lead series would be nice in the 2 volts config as well.

[alyaz]

Thanks Russ.   

What is the real differences between the ‘industrial’ lines and the ‘L16’ lines of batteries?  The L16’s are smaller, lighter, thinner plates, etc, correct?  And in a perfect world are the ‘industrial’ lines the way to go off grid (if you have the space and money?).  Or put another way are L16’s a compromise when living off grid full time?

[Vic]

Hi Al,

The two main battery banks for two separate off-grid systems here use Surrette 5000 series batteries  --  the same model that Russ was referring to.

These batteries banks are entering their 12th year of service,  and still going strong (knock,  knock on wood).

I would not hesitate to buy these same model (4KS25) batteries from Surrrette,  again.   And still recommend and specify Surrette batteries,  without hesitation.

Also have a backup battery bank of Surrette 6V L-16s that are also entering their 12th year of light service,  and are still strong ...   this is a long lifespan for L-16s.

The 4000 series L-16 size batteries,  like the ones in your Link should provide good service for full-time off-grid use.   And have the benefit of being a 2V battery in only one cell.  Some other 2V L-16s from other manufacturers (like Trojan), are three-cell versions,  with three individual cells,  connected in parallel --   three cells to water and check SG on,  etc,  but still a 2V battery.

You are correct,  that the L-16 sized batteries will have thinner plates,  and therefore more plates for a  given Capacity,  verses the larger 5000 series batteries of similar Capacity.  The L-16 batteries have a somewhat shorter Warranty,  and are,  of course,  less expensive than the 5000s.

IMO,  Surrette still builds a very good battery,  and offers excellent Support for their customers.

All just my opinion.   Vic

[alyaz]

Thanks Vic.

Interesting in that looking for industrial batteries that would fit our current battery bank footprint, I looked at the Surette / Rolls 4KS25P (1350 ahr).  These are a 4 volt, so I could fit six of these in the current battery area.  I can’t find any Surette / Rolls nor any Trojan 2 volt batteries that will fit.  No one other than Davidson seems to make a 2 volt that will fit the enclosure.

So besides weight, what are the drawbacks of going with six 4 volt 4KS25P’s over twelve 2 volt industrials?

[Vic]

Hi Al,

The only real drawback,  is that it IS a 4V battery.  The two cells are bolted together,  and the top cover of the battery is easily removable,  after disconnecting the battery interconnect cables.  SO,  one cell is still easily replaceable,  should that ever be necessary.

The 4KS25s are a bit tall,  so there might be a bit more tendency toward electrolyte Stratification  --  this has not been a big deal with mine.

One advantage of this height,  is that they do occupy less floor space,  AND,  it is very easy to move them,  using a Hand Truck,  as the height gives one average adult the ability to easily tip the battery back with the hand truck,  and move them.   Of course,  stairs would be  a  bit difficult to manage,  without some special equipment.

Did need to move one bank of 24 of these batteries,  and was fairly easy to push one battery on the hand truck,  up an 8 foot  (2.4 M)  long ramp,  into the bed of a full-size pickup.   So,  in general handling these 315 Lb (143 Kg) batteries,  is not a big deal for even one person.

IMO,   Vic

[alyaz]

Thanks Vic.

No stairs here, so other than getting them hiab’ed off the truck, I can wheel them straight into the spot.  Sounds like these batteries are a possible.  Thanks again.

[mike90045]

And there is the HUP line of batteries too   Beefy 2v cells, steel cases.....
http://www.hupsolar.com/buy-HUP-batteries-prices-pricing

[alyaz]

Copy on the HUP line...

Got one price today for the Rolls 4KS25P (1350 a/hr) batteries...

$1450 Cdn each.  $1450 x 6... = a lot.

yikes...

[Vic]

Copy on the HUP line...

Got one price today for the Rolls 4KS25P (1350 a/hr) batteries...

$1450 Cdn each.  $1450 x 6... = a lot.
yikes...

Hi Al,

YES,  batteries have gotten expensive!   When I bought the battery banks for this location,   they were about U$D 715ea,  including (free) shipping and battery interconnect cables.   They have almost doubled in price,  since.

There are other battery chemistries that could be ready for prime-time within about five years or so,  but FLA batteries are a well-known technology,  and can give long and reliable service.

Good Luck with the decision.    Vic

[russ_drinkwater]

I am assuming that rolls uses a plante plate type construction in their batteries the same as
trojan does in the L16 series. To be fair if cost is a major consideration then look at the L16 carbon range from trojan!
I do not know what your daily draw is on your cells. But the small bank of L16's I have given to my son is 870 amps @ 24 volts
has performed extremely well. The rolls must have plates approaching 10mm in width or more in the 1350 amp series I have here.
Rolls 1350 per 12 volt weight is 420kgs and 12 volt in the L16 trojans the weight is 150kgs, so there is a huge difference in the
amount of material used in both batteries. Two and a half times as much weight roughly with an allowance for the extra electrolyte
in the rolls. Anything with non plante plate construction steer clear of as in my opinion you will be sadly disappointed and
let down at the worst possible time.
The cost of those rolls makes my purchase of 12 x 1350 amp 4 volt packs for $2,000 a bargain! (new and neglected even so)

[Vic]

I am assuming that rolls uses a plante plate type construction in their batteries the same as
trojan does in the L16 series. To be fair if cost is a major consideration then look at the L16 carbon range from trojan!
I do not know what your daily draw is on your cells. But the small bank of L16's I have given to my son is 870 amps @ 24 volts
has performed extremely well. The rolls must have plates approaching 10mm in width or more in the 1350 amp series I have here.
Rolls 1350 per 12 volt weight is 420kgs and 12 volt in the L16 trojans the weight is 150kgs, so there is a huge difference in the
amount of material used in both batteries. Two and a half times as much weight roughly with an allowance for the extra electrolyte
in the rolls. Anything with non plante plate construction steer clear of as in my opinion you will be sadly disappointed and
let down at the worst possible time.
The cost of those rolls makes my purchase of 12 x 1350 amp 4 volt packs for $2,000 a bargain! (new and neglected even so)

The Positive plate in the 4KS25s is 6.99 MM thick,  the Negative plate is 4.57 MM.  The Data Sheet mentions that each of these batteries weigh 143 Kg:
https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/4KS25P.pdf

The plates on many high quality batteries are enveloped in a finely porous plastic material,  which allows only very fine plate debris to escape,  this also helps reduce Mossing,  and other types of plate shorting.

Vic

[russ_drinkwater]

That thickness in the negative plates is very heavy (in the rolls) as the raylittes I stripped down had very light negative plates/grids similar in size to car battery negative plates (larger of course in surface area).
Purity of the lead adds to weight and extra life as well.
Most automotive batteries now are made of crap and the amount of actual lead in the plates is dismal!
Even cat batteries are a shadow of their former selves!
All about cost and profit margins I fear.