Need help - batteries not reaching full charge - adding more

Started by robbertwilliams, January 09, 2017, 08:55:08 PM

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ClassicCrazy

#30
If you have internet register on MyMidnite and get that going - you can easily choose and see battery volts, ending amps, SOC , etc - pick and choose which ones.

You can see the days history and as you drag the mouse along it will show you the readings on the left  - in this capture the white vertical  mouse line is showing the readings at that particular time .

You can see that it was just before ending amps at 10.6 and then it goes to float . You can see the sharp drop on the graph .  These are new batteries and I am still figuring out if I should use ending amps and at which value .
Larry

system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

Westbranch

#31
OK...  you SET the EA value and the Classic will end the Absorb stage at that value
ie if it is set to 0.1A,  ABSORB will end when the WBjr measures that there are  .1Amps going into the battery... 

EA is set in one of the 3 categories at the bottom of the screen  ONCE you have chosen CONFIG

yes there is a facility in the L. App to view and you can choose the units you want to watch

From memory, the values are set using the DATA on the top of the dashboard and LIVE on the bottom of the dashboard...

hth
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

Vic

Quote from: robbertwilliams on January 13, 2017, 08:46:24 PM
I am using 1.265 as a full SG, and it is currently set at -3mv/c.  Vic, that document is the same that I was given when I asked the retailer (first set purchased) for charge specs, and that is all they could find.  I haven't been following any real rubric in the recent week.  I've been taking suggestions and spec documents while using them collectively. 

Tom, thanks for the hint in regards to SG of distilled water.  Neither one of my hydrometers will read down to 1.0.

I did however have pretty good luck with measuring out 15ml of solution and dividing its weight in g by volume in ml.  The end result brings me to trust my glass OTC hydrometer (not 100% confident in the built in temp compensation thermometer) and to DISTRUST the Hydrovolt, which is back in the package and ready for return.  I couldn't get consistent readings with the hydrovolt, just consistently different readings.

I'll be ordering a Freas No. 1 from Chief Aircraft, 35 bucks with shipping. 

The charge today, I arrived around 11:30am, was already in Float.  This was with a 4hr duration and ending amps (classic not shunt) set at 3.7.  The SG readings, especially in the battery/cell "new 4-3" had not improved.  I've since brought ending amps back to zero and will see what happens after 4hrs of absorb.  Frustration has ensued. 

I hooked up all the necessary wiring for the generator to charge via the inverter but I can't find my batt temp sensor for it.  Will the midnite one work on the Schneider electric inverter?  They look nearly identical.  The set limits for the built in charger are much different than the CC's. 

Any idea of max temp setting for EQ?  I've read anywhere from 125 to 145.  I'm kind of nervous to do an EQ but I think it is a must.  I'm shooting to try it out on Sunday.  I plan to keep a close eye on it.  All pointers would be appreciated greatly. 
Thanks everyone!

First,  good that you found the Freas #1  Hydro.   And that you feel that you have confirmed the accuracy of the glass Hydro.

Fine on using 1.265 and -- 3 mV.

IMO,  EA probably did end the Absorb,  today,  because it is hard to believe that you could do Bulk,  AND four hours of Absorb by 11:30 AM,   especially in the far North.

Believe that the Battery Temp Sensor (BTS) for the Schneider equipment is different than the Outback and MN products.  The only Schneider BTSes that I've seen are medium grey in color,  and have a metal tab with a hole in so it can be mounted on a battery terminal,  if that might help you find it.   The color may have changed ...

So,  you have the Schneider SCP,  or Combox,   or whatever is necessary for you to change the inverter/charger settings from Defaults to what you need for your Flooded batteries.   Usually,  Default settings are so low,   as to be only marginally useful.  It is possible that the Default EQ voltage is at a very low Absorb voltage.

But,  since you were wondering about the Max temperature for an EQ,  perhaps you do have the necessary SW gizmo to change from the Defaults ...

Even without the SW's BTS,  you could still do the EQ,  if you have the correct Schneider gizmo to allow setting correct voltages for your batteries.   You could use the Classic's Temps menu,  or the Local App (LA)  to see the battery temp,  and do a manual comp,  at --3 mV/Cell/C.

EQing does raise battery temperature.  It would surprise me,  if your battery temperature RISE during a three hour EQ would exceed 25 or so degrees F.

So before you EQ the battery,  you will want to complete the Absorb stage,   and would guess that the EQ might require 2 - 3 hours,  or even more.

The LA does have the ability to plot WBjr Amps,  and  CC output Amps,  and a number of other things.   So,  select "Data",   and then "Live".  Now,  you can choose the parameters that you want to watch.

Of course,    the data is sent to your computer,   so,   the LA  needs to be running on the computer to have the data saved.

For me,   the  resolution  for the LA on screen display is not sufficient to be able to see the rate of change of WBjr current (or CC output current) to be useful in seeing the appropriate EA value  ...   the Scale Factor is too large.  Absorb is entered at about 70 or so amps,  but would like to be able to resolve a fraction of an amp on the graph ...  probably when exported,   and massaged,  it could be useful.   The LA is still a very useful package, and it is FREE!!   Thanks MidNite!

ENUF for now,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

Resthome

You can get data points every 2 seconds with the Local App. The LA has to remain running to collect this data. I’ll start it in the morning and let it run all day with it set to a long Absorb time and a low EA. Set the DATA â€" LIVE what to chart to all values. This will make a messy looking graph in the LA what what you want to do is Export that data as a CSV file and import it to Excel. You can then see all the data. You will need to convert the Time and set the time zone in the cell as explained on the Export file. You can then make a graph of the WBjr Amps going into the Battery.  When you see that line start to flatten out that would be what you set your EA at.

Ryan has made 5 You Tube video of every thing about the LA. See MN web site under Document and Videos, then Under Classic IIRC. Great and very helpful to understand the LA.

See sample graph below. In this graph EA would be set at around 5.5 - 6.0 Amps as the WBjr amp reading is a little noisy and to go to Float it has to be at that value for a set period of time and any noisy spike will cancel the time and have to start over. But you'll get the idea. There is a bug in the time data that can be easily corrected. But won't get into that now.



John

10 x Kyocera KC140, Classic 150 w/WBJr, Link10 Battery Monitor, 850 AH @ 12v Solar One 2v cells, Xantrex PROwatt SW2000
Off Grid on Houseboat Lake Don Pedro, CA

Vic

Hi John,

Thanks for the info,   and the graph.   That representation would be more useful ...   sure wish that we could set the scale on the LA's Data - Live ...   maybe later on that.

Thanks,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

robbertwilliams

What does everyone know about the T-Comp Limit settings on the classic? 

Today it was super sunny and CC sat in the absorb stage through the 4hrs, batt amps (classic measurement) at 2.5-3.5, batt voltage at 29.2.  Everything seemed like it was broken, panels pulling only 50 or so watts. 

I decided I'd switch the charge over to the old battery bank that has been sitting for about a week.  The watts shot right up to around 250-300 and slowly tapered back down to 60watts.  Then it occurred to me that the battery voltage (29.2) was the peak again.  That number looked familiar so I cycled through the menus and found the max t-comp limit was set to 29.2.  Coincidence?  I changed it to 32 (as well as changing the old low limit of 26.4 to 24.4).  Then the wattage on the panels shot right up again. 

So lost...
4 Hyundai His250mg, 8 Deka 8l16 for 740@24v, Schneider Elec. SW2524 + Combox, Midnite Classic 150 w/WBjr

DPW ToP Mount, MNPV3 Combiner with MC4 input, MNDC250 DC Box

Off Grid in Black Hills, South Dakota

Resthome

For some strange reason all the Training Videos including the LA ones are no longer on the Web site. At least I can't reach them from the US West Coast. I've pinged Ryan on it to see if he can get them back.
John

10 x Kyocera KC140, Classic 150 w/WBJr, Link10 Battery Monitor, 850 AH @ 12v Solar One 2v cells, Xantrex PROwatt SW2000
Off Grid on Houseboat Lake Don Pedro, CA

Vic

Hi robbertwilliams,

The Default Temp Comp Limit Defaults are very narrow,  to try to be safe for those with Sealed batteries.

IMO,   set the Classic upper limit to a voltage that you would expect that the Classic will never see,   and likewise with the lower limits.  So,  EQing a cold battery,  you might see 32.5 V,  or so,  so I would set the upper limit around that.   Do not know the Hi voltage shutdown (might be HVD,  or similar)  is on the SW inverters,   though.

The lower temp comp limit affects compensation while charging a warm/hot battery.

Personally,   would set the Classic Temp compensation for EQ = YES,   BTW.

IMO,  your intuition was quite good.

Good Luck,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

ClassicCrazy

system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

robbertwilliams

Thanks Vic!  I'm hoping to move forward tomorrow.  I'm going to hold off a day on the EQ until I find out that the T-Comp Limit settings were the culprit; I'd like to see it first hand.  This way I'll be able to have the computer hooked up and recording tomorrow's charge session. 

Wish I had more info/news for today but that cut the day pretty short.  I did however have sometime to play with my new amp clamp out at the panels...not as exciting as you'd think but it did pass the time. 

Thanks everyone.
4 Hyundai His250mg, 8 Deka 8l16 for 740@24v, Schneider Elec. SW2524 + Combox, Midnite Classic 150 w/WBjr

DPW ToP Mount, MNPV3 Combiner with MC4 input, MNDC250 DC Box

Off Grid in Black Hills, South Dakota

Vic

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on January 14, 2017, 06:22:56 PM
I thought he had flooded L16
Larry

Hi Larry,   is the above quote aimed at me?

YES,  indeed,   he does have Flooded batteries!

Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

ClassicCrazy

Quote from: Vic on January 14, 2017, 06:05:54 PM
Hi robbertwilliams,

The Default Temp Comp Limit Defaults are very narrow,  to try to be safe for those with Sealed batteries.

IMO,   set the Classic upper limit to a voltage that you would expect that the Classic will never see,   and likewise with the lower limits.  So,  EQing a cold battery,  you might see 32.5 V,  or so,  so I would set the upper limit around that.   Do not know the Hi voltage shutdown (might be HVD,  or similar)  is on the SW inverters,   though.

The lower temp comp limit affects compensation while charging a warm/hot battery.

Personally,   would set the Classic Temp compensation for EQ = YES,   BTW.

IMO,  your intuition was quite good.

Good Luck,   Vic

Yeah Vic - I thought you mentioned sealed batteries above - I didn't think flooded were considered sealed since they can gas off all they want.

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

Vic

Larry,

All of the discussion about measuring SGs,   target SG for full-charge,   Hydros,  etc,  plus the Deka battery links,   reference to elevated EQ voltages,  etc, DO indicate that the batteries in question are indeed Flooded.

The above reference to Sealed batteries,  was an attempt to simply explain why the Default Temp Comp Limits (Sealed batteries)  in the Classic (and a number of other CCs & inverters were SO narrow),   and the suggestion to significantly widen these limits for robbertwilliams'  Deka Flooded batteries ...   that is all that I was trying to do ...

Thanks,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

ClassicCrazy

Oh - I understand what you mean now Vic - makes sense !
Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

robbertwilliams

Well, not sure if I have anything to report after today.  The "incoming" watts were at about 70w, and voltage at 34.5ish while in the absorb stage.  The battery peaked out at 29.8volts and the WBJr amps were at 1.6-2.0, kinda bouncing up and down but pretty much consistent.  So, I'm not sure if opening up the temp comp limits did much of anything. 

I feel like something else is limiting my charge...what gives me this feeling is that incoming watts sit around 70w, but when I turn the inverter on and start to draw on the system, the incoming watts go up to 175-200w (even more if I turn more stuff on). 

This is just becoming a bit overwhelming...the whole move in the middle of winter, not having this power thing figured out, our dog diagnosed with cancer, etc.

I did, however, fire up the generator and inverter/charger.  It seems to work well but am unsure of the settings.  The inputs are different than that of the Classic.  I've attached a couple pics that show what the Schneider electric Charger is looking for.  It's asking for amps instead of volts for the three charge stages.  Somewhere I believe I came across an article on C/5 for the bulk, C/10-15 for absorb, and C/20 for float...but I can't seem to find it. 

And what is Temperature Compensation Set Voltage?  And why is it 29.6?  Just curious, doesn't look like I can change it. 

Ok, my pictures are too big, even compressed, to add them as attachments. 

The SW is looking for the following:

Battery Type
Maximum Charge Rate - 100%
Max Bulk Charge Current - 48A
Max Absorb Charge Current - 37A
Max Float Charge Current - 2A
Charge Cycle - Set to 3 stage
Default Battery Temp - Not in Degrees but stated as "cold" or "hot" or "warm" (set to COLD)
Recharge Voltage - 25.0V
Absorption Time - 240min
Charger Override Enable/Disable - Disable

Do these settings look ok?
4 Hyundai His250mg, 8 Deka 8l16 for 740@24v, Schneider Elec. SW2524 + Combox, Midnite Classic 150 w/WBjr

DPW ToP Mount, MNPV3 Combiner with MC4 input, MNDC250 DC Box

Off Grid in Black Hills, South Dakota