Enclosure / Breaker box for the F rated MNEDC 175 breakers

Started by harryn, February 03, 2017, 06:19:30 PM

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harryn

Hi, I am editing this question because I used some incorrect terminology which probably confused some people who are trying to help.

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I am looking for an ENCLOSURE for at least 3 each of the MNEDC 175 breakers.

Think of it like a big baby or MNEDCQUAD enclosure, but for the large, F class MNEDC breakers that are 1.5 inches wide, not 3/4 inches wide like the smaller C class breakers.

The related question is - are there some kind of separators sold that go between adjacent breakers?  I am having trouble envisioning how to 100% prevent the wire lugs from rotating slightly and shorting on a threaded stud, but need to use lugs and studs or bolt connections in this application.

Thanks for all assistance and guidance.

Harry

end of edit
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I would like to put at least 3, possibly 4 each of the MNEDC 175 panel mount breakers in a box.

A couple of question:
1)  Could use some suggestions for such a breaker box.  I have searched, but I think I am doing something wrong because I cannot find one from Midnight or Carling.

2) The application requires the stud type terminals and at least 1/0 wire, perhaps 2/0 wire.  It looks pretty tight to get heavy duty lugs for 2/0 wire if I put these breakers near each other.  It might fit, but even a slight rotation and it looks (from photos) like the adjacent lugs could touch.  Suggestions ?

3) Is there any kind of insulated separator available for this kind of setup?

4) Are there any options for shutting down multiple of these F type breakers at the same time?  For example, some breakers have mechanical ways to tie the front switch together.

5) I see that Carling offers a 3 pole version sold "as a unit".  Is there any advantage to this type vs just using 3 each of the 175s?

6) Carling marks these as having a "line" and "load", at least on their data sheet.  I am assuming that these are bi-directional, like all of the Midnight panel breakers. Right?

Thanks for any suggestions.

Harry

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harryn

Thank you for the reply and information.

I realized from your answer that I used incorrect terminology in my question.

I am looking for an ENCLOSURE / Breaker box, sort of like a super sized version of a big baby, for these 1.5 inch wide, F class breakers.

I am not looking to change the breaker to another type unless somehow it eliminates the need for an enclosure.


harryn

Quote from: harryn on February 04, 2017, 03:17:44 PM
Thank you for the reply and information.

I realized from your answer that I used incorrect terminology in my question.

I am looking for an ENCLOSURE / Breaker box, sort of like a super sized version of a big baby, for these 1.5 inch wide, F class breakers.

I am not looking to change the breaker to another type unless somehow it eliminates the need for an enclosure.

Thank you for taking the time to think about my question and answering though - much appreciated.

Vic

Hello again harryn,

It seems improbable that there would be enough demand for a box for three of four of the F-Frame breakers,   that is not designed as an accessory for a specific system.   Furthermore,   IMO,  any such box/enclosure would not be small.

You might look for a Xantrex DCCB,  or DCCB-L  DC Conduit box.   It has room for three F-Frame breakers,  and four or six E-Frame breakers,   etc,   but the DCCB-L,  is about 13.5" wide,   and about 33"  high ...   not small, AND it is obsolete,  but perhaps found on e-bay,  or similar sites.   Schneider probably has a similar box for the Conext XW line of inverters,   but none of this stuff is inexpensive,  at least it will be Listed by some recognized Safety testing Agency.   Usually any such Listing  would be as an accessory to other recognized or listed items,   and so on.
EDIT:  Here is a Link to the DCCB-L  Manual ...  am certain that it is much too large for your application,  ...   but:
http://www.energyalternatives.ca/mmAEONLINE/Others/DCCB-L%20Owners%20Guide%20(973-0032-01-01%20Rev%20A).pdf
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Technically,   the minimum size conductor for a 175 A breaker would be about 2/0.

Correctly torqued,   there should be no reason that any cable lugs should rotate on the breaker stud,   and short,  after assembly.   Some of the E-Frame breakers DO have an insulating ear on one side,   rising above the breaker terminal,   but have not seen this on commonly-available F series breakers.

Handle Ties are available for some breakers that can provide common trip of all tied-handles,   but,  please  read the last paragraph in this Carling document:
http://www.carlingtech.com/circuit-poles

Just my read on things.   Good Luck,   Vic
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harryn

Thank you Vic.

Is there a DC voltage range that "needs" a UL listed breaker box, vs not"

For example, running at 12 VDC, I am pretty sure that this is not a requirement - perhaps ABYC or something, but not UL.

This system will actually be running nominal 48 VDC - so up to 60 VDC max.  Does UL come into play at all for this voltage?

Thanks

Harry

Vic

Hi Harry,   thanks for the reply.

Believe,   from another Thread,   that this is probably a mobile application,   and therefore would not require a Building Department Inspection.

My comment about a Listed or otherwise recognized by a safety testing agency devices,  was more about compliance with some standard methods and practices when dealing with large conductors,   breakers,  box volume,  high currents,  etc.

You could probably find an NEMA box/enclosure that is sufficiently large to accommodate cables,   breakers and other elements that would need to be inside the box,   and carefully make the necessary cut-outs for the breakers,   and perhaps enlarge conduit knockouts as needed.

One reason for minimum volume and dimensions in the NEC is to allow cables to be fairly easily pulled and routed inside and out of these boxes.

Using system components which have been tested and passed by major testing labs is usually a liability reduction for those designing and building power and other systems.   The primary drivers for the NEC,  and component testing are Insurance companies,   and representatives of Fire fighting agencies.

A 48 volt nominal system is about the upper voltage limit for systems which do not require additional means of personnel protection.

Systems that your are interested in building DO represent an Energy Hazard,   however.   An energy hazard can be dangerous to people,   directly,   and represent a risk of fire.

It is possible that the SAE has some standards that would apply,   and help guide your design/build decisions.

FWIW,   have little to add.   Good Luck,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!