What are your thoughts on desulfators?

[ClassicCrazy]

sort of like a defibrillator, if you didn't have heart attack and had one put in your chest and you were still with us a year later how would  you know if it prevented a heart attack just because you still didn't have one

I don't completely agree with your analogy.
If the case of FLA batteries, being the 'heart' in your analogy, they have a known lifespan of 2-7 years. The 7 year life is with very good care. So, if the defibrillator in your analogy got me more years of life than my known lifespan, then I have good evidence that the extra life is due to the defibrillator (desulfator). If I don't get any extra life, then it did not work.

The battery dealer told me that flooded East Penn Deka  forklift batteries used for off grid will last 10 to 15 years.  He said he just replaced one that he had sold 15 years ago .

Larry

[niel]

what insult? did i call you an idiot or did i ask why you knuckled under to your better instinct? this has little to do with open mindedness anyway for would you buy a bridge just because you want to be open minded and trust the seller?

btw, you are dead wrong that no amount of care will make batteries last 8 years as too many have done it and without desulfators.

[Halfcrazy]

if you viewed them as snake oil then why were you foolish enough to buy one?

Was the insult really necessary?
The reason I made the investment is because I'm more open minded than you, and willing to give the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt and trust them enough to try out their product. Even if it truns out to be snake oil and not work, at least I got some experience ansd learned something for my money.

I have no idea why you chose to reply to my post in the manner you did, but your certainly built a wall between us. If you can't say something nice, then you might want to just keep quiet.

To answer your question, no amount of 'care' for my batteries would get them to 8 years of life. If their SOH is still good at that point, then I will be convinced that there is merit to the product.

I, Like Off Grid Geek, will buy things just because I am curious if they work or not so to say we are foolish is sort of out of line IMHO. A lot of us do this as we want to see if there may be any truth to what some one claims.

On a different subject, My engineers always told me that todays MPPT chargers ARE desulfators. It has to do with the high frequency switching pulses they hit the battery with (just like most of today's desulfators). I can neither confirm nor deny the claim of desulfators but IMHO proper care and feeding of a lead acid battery will ultimately give you the longest life possible, That said if you have a few sulfated batteries for whatever reason WHY not try?

[TomW]

I, Like Off Grid Geek, will buy things just because I am curious if they work or not so to say we are foolish is sort of out of line IMHO. A lot of us do this as we want to see if there may be any truth to what some one claims.

On a different subject, My engineers always told me that todays MPPT chargers ARE desulfators. It has to do with the high frequency switching pulses they hit the battery with (just like most of today's desulfators). I can neither confirm nor deny the claim of desulfators but IMHO proper care and feeding of a lead acid battery will ultimately give you the longest life possible, That said if you have a few sulfated batteries for whatever reason WHY not try?

Yeah, if nobody tried "new stuff" we would still be walking on the African savanna trying to find food and fend off lions and hyenas with only our teeth and hands. Actually, still in the trees.  No offense to creationists out there!

I am not so much of an early adopter these days but I often bought stuff to check out new theories / products, etc in my youth.

Sadly, age has a way of making some folks grumpy know it alls. Hint Hint.

That is my story and I am sticking with it!

Tom

[off-grid-geeks]

The battery dealer told me that flooded East Penn Deka  forklift batteries used for off grid will last 10 to 15 years.  He said he just replaced one that he had sold 15 years ago .

Larry

That's great to know, thanks Larry!
So in theory, a desulfator on those forklift batteries might get you to 20 years.

The FLAs I used in my 2-7 year lifespan were common GC2 style deep cycle batteries. Sure wish I had those forklift batteries!
I just wish it was a bit easier to move those things around and to get rid of them when replacing them. :-)

[off-grid-geeks]

On a different subject, My engineers always told me that todays MPPT chargers ARE desulfators. It has to do with the high frequency switching pulses they hit the battery with (just like most of today's desulfators). I can neither confirm nor deny the claim of desulfators but IMHO proper care and feeding of a lead acid battery will ultimately give you the longest life possible, That said if you have a few sulfated batteries for whatever reason WHY not try?

Until you mentioned this, I had never thought about this concept. I can see how it is probably valid.
I should through an oscilloscope across the batteries and see how the MPPT charge compares to the desulfator signal, compare the frequencies and voltages.

Thanks for sharing this!

[ClassicCrazy]

The battery dealer told me that flooded East Penn Deka  forklift batteries used for off grid will last 10 to 15 years.  He said he just replaced one that he had sold 15 years ago .

Larry

That's great to know, thanks Larry!
So in theory, a desulfator on those forklift batteries might get you to 20 years.

The FLAs I used in my 2-7 year lifespan were common GC2 style deep cycle batteries. Sure wish I had those forklift batteries!
I just wish it was a bit easier to move those things around and to get rid of them when replacing them. :-)

I am guessing lifespan of a battery is much related to  chemistry and composition of the lead plates. And of course how much and for how long they are discharged . The new crystal lead batteries I recently got claim that they won't sulphate up if left in low discharge states and they relate that to the chemistry. But they still have a useful life expectancy based on how deep they are discharged and just as importantly how warm  or cool they are . The warmer they are the less life that they will perform at specs because the chemical processes are sped up. I believe that is true with most all lead batteries - better not to let them get too warm.  The battery dealer I know renovates fork lift batteries. They load test each cell and will replace the ones that are failing with another used one with comparable performance. And he says it is most often the cells in the center of the battery pack that fail because they get warmer than the ones around the perimeter that will stay cooler.

Larry

[niel]

if you viewed them as snake oil then why were you foolish enough to buy one?

Was the insult really necessary?
The reason I made the investment is because I'm more open minded than you, and willing to give the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt and trust them enough to try out their product. Even if it truns out to be snake oil and not work, at least I got some experience ansd learned something for my money.

I have no idea why you chose to reply to my post in the manner you did, but your certainly built a wall between us. If you can't say something nice, then you might want to just keep quiet.

To answer your question, no amount of 'care' for my batteries would get them to 8 years of life. If their SOH is still good at that point, then I will be convinced that there is merit to the product.

I, Like Off Grid Geek, will buy things just because I am curious if they work or not so to say we are foolish is sort of out of line IMHO. A lot of us do this as we want to see if there may be any truth to what some one claims.

On a different subject, My engineers always told me that todays MPPT chargers ARE desulfators. It has to do with the high frequency switching pulses they hit the battery with (just like most of today's desulfators). I can neither confirm nor deny the claim of desulfators but IMHO proper care and feeding of a lead acid battery will ultimately give you the longest life possible, That said if you have a few sulfated batteries for whatever reason WHY not try?

it was not i who said he viewed them as snake oil and bought it anyway. nor did i call him a name. saying he was foolish if he believed that and bought it anyway now if that's out of line for me to comment about then so be it. that wasn't just giving it a try as he believed it no good.

i am aware of the controllers all switching and sending pulses to the batteries and how does an EXTRA desulfator help this?

btw ryan, if you think there's a problem then pm me.

[russ_drinkwater]

I have seen claimed lives of 20 years plus on some forklift battery packs coming from the owners.
Take it with a grain of salt.
You have to have plante plate style batteries for long life no matter what other people claim!
The heavier the plates the longer they will last in theory.

[CDN-VT]

I have seen claimed lives of 20 years plus on some forklift battery packs coming from the owners.
Take it with a grain of salt.
You have to have plante plate style batteries for long life no matter what other people claim!
The heavier the plates the longer they will last in theory.

AS LONG as you can have the charge to BOIL the water off .
forklift battery packs use HUGE amps or C25%+ to get the action happening !!
Trickle in amps the forklift battery is on a death spiral !!

Playing this LiP-ION test , It's fused & in it's own fire brick area , right beside the bedrooms (joke out of NA)
It's the voltage stabilization that these cells freak out at .

VT

[off-grid-geeks]

AS LONG as you can have the charge to BOIL the water off .
VT

It is reported that a simple boil will break off the sulphation in flakes, which sink to the bottom of the cell where they eventually pile up. Once the pile is tall enough to reach the bottom of the plates, they short out and the cell ceases to function.

Compared to boiling (which IS good to stir the solution and reduce stratification), the action of the desulphator supposedly dissolves the sulphation back into solution.

I'm only repeating what the manufacturers are saying when comparing simple boiling to their products. I'm not saying its true.

[Vic]

It is reported that a simple boil will break off the sulphation in flakes, which sink to the bottom of the cell where they eventually pile up. Once the pile is tall enough to reach the bottom of the plates, they short out and the cell ceases to function.

Compared to boiling (which IS good to stir the solution and reduce stratification), the action of the desulphator supposedly dissolves the sulphation back into solution.

I'm only repeating what the manufacturers are saying when comparing simple boiling to their products. I'm not saying its true.

Just my opinion,  but  the shorting mechanism for FLAs is from Mossing (of lead particles from plate erosion).   This debris can Moss on the tops of plates,  and around the lead busses that connect the plates together.

OR,  from the plate debris that falls to the bottom of the cells,   and could cause a short.

IMO,  the sulfates are bound onto the plates,   and need to be removed by fully-charging the battery bank,  and on occasion,  from EQing the battery.

Have seen eroded plate debris in Flooded batteries,   but have never seen anything that looks like it was any sulfur compound.

Shorting from Mossing can be reduced if the battery envelopes the plates,   and also uses a Moss Guard on top of the plates.

Not to nit-pick too much,  just my opinions,   FWIW,   Vic

[dgd]

It is reported that a simple boil will break off the sulphation in flakes, which sink to the bottom of the cell where they eventually pile up. Once the pile is tall enough to reach the bottom of the plates, they short out and the cell ceases to function.

No, I don't think this is true. I have been able to observe many many times several sets of batteries, from Varta 2v 1400aH to 2v 800aH Australian Solar cells to 4v and 6v german IMG cells, all in clear see through plastic containers and NEVER ever have i seen lumps or flakes of anything, sulphate or whatever, break off any of the plates or matting or seperators or terminal poles and pile up on the bottom of the cell.
I have OTOH observed an extremely slow build up of mud sludge material in cells but it would never come anywhere near the plate bottoms.
I also do not know what a slow boil is, do youmean the normal bubbling seen during bulk absorb and float charging?

Compared to boiling (which IS good to stir the solution and reduce stratification), the action of the desulphator supposedly dissolves the sulphation back into solution.

You mean EQ where charging is more vigorous? Yes that stirs things up and will often reabsorb some of that soft mud in the bottom of the cell.
As for those desulphators i think your original 'snake oil' thought may have been more valid.
Most of the ads I saw for them referred to bringing dead sulphated batteries back to life.
A friend was so convinced he bought a few dozen well dead floor sweeper L16s and after 3 months running with several desulphators and a grunty transformer based charger managed toget exactly three out of 42 batteries up to a useable condition. After a further few weeks they died anyway.

I'm only repeating what the manufacturers are saying when comparing simple boiling to their products. I'm not saying its true.

Dont sales people always tell the truth?

Dgd

[off-grid-geeks]

Thanks for the replies! Good shared experiences.
Actual observation is worth a lot...

[Jacotenente]

Stay tuned. Doing a 1-month test on the "Battery Extra" desulfator. Shot a video (a "before and after" type deal soon). All batteries were topped off, no "tweaks" to the three Classics, original battery vent caps. Not a scientific test at all...but, should provide some kind of insight through observation, water use, and general "gut feeling" of how this desulfator is (or is not) performing. In about a week...there will be a video on my YouTube channel.

Chris