Marine Version of the classic

[harryn]

Hi, I would like to ask you to consider to build a marine version of the classic.  By marine version, I mean something that can allow us to use ABYC type wiring approaches.

In fixed home wiring, screw down terminals are widely used.

In ABYC wiring, the standards are based around:
- Highly stranded, tin plated wire
- Heavy insulation
- Typically over sizing the wire compared to home wiring (so for a classic 150, 1/0 would be commonly used for the battery connections vs 4 awg max on the existing)
- Heavy closed lugs with either studs or bolt hole type connections (example FTZ type or Quality Cable Magna lugs)

Package wise, some items that would be helpful:
- The wire and lugs tend to be fairly inflexible, so the alignment of the holes to the terminals will need to be much closer than on the existing model. 
(I am happy to send some example wires with lugs if that is at all helpful)
- The fun shaped package with the moon is cool, but for marine use those are just items that are likely to be broken off, or make the installation more difficult.  Perhaps you can make the box less cool looking and use some stickers for name recognition?

Blowers vs fans for exhaust
- It is not uncommon for the exhaust air to have to move through a short duct - perhaps 5 - 6 ft to exit.
- Sometimes, a similar ducting is needed on the inlet side
- Fans are good for applications that require velocity, but do not provide the "pressure" to move air through a duct, even short ones
- It would be great if the built in cooling air flow was based on a blower so that additional blowers would not be needed just for one item

[harryn]

I will be honest, part of this suggestion comes from some unexpected challenges that I had with a classic this weekend.

A friend of mine is a navy vet and wanted solar on his RV.  It isn't something he can do, so I am helping him.

I recommended that he purchase a classic 150 for the project and 4 RV size panels in series.  I am providing the rest of the parts and a buddy is helping me with the installation.

We are using ABYC type approaches for things, as that is what we are more used to.  We even used a quad box and the MNEDC breakers so that we could use lug terminated wire.  (they are narrow, but ok)

Things went along pretty well until we attempted to use 4 awg, highly flexible, tin plated, ABYC compliant cable into the classic terminal block.  There isn't a prayer that that terminal block can handle 4 awg tin plated wire, and frankly I am now in the unfortunate position of:
- looking a bit foolish
- Potentially having to cover his loss on this classic and find something else

Anyway, if you can consider to build a version for ABYC use, that would help a lot with RV and Marine type use.

Thanks

Harry

[ClassicCrazy]

I don't quite understand - if there is no marine code required for the RV installation that you installing why can't you just run a standard piece of wire from the PV input and battery breakers  to the Classic terminals ?  I wouldn't be that long a run would it ?

Larry

[harryn]

We do most of our work to ABYC standards for any application that is mobile.

By "standard", I hope you don't mean "solid copper - not stranded"?  That isn't even recommended for RV use.

Screw down terminals are well known to be marginal even in RV use and are a source of things coming loose, especially in off road.

It would not make any sense for us to use two different solar charge controllers for "officially marine / boat use vs RV", we need consistent design and part use.

As far as that particular application on Saturday, we buy per-terminated / crimped wire so that we don't have to fool around with crimping wires in the field.  We purposely don't carry crimp tools for heavy gauge wire so there is no temptation to do it.  It is difficult to match the performance of a crimp done on professional tools in a factory environment in the field.  I won't say it cannot be done, but it is expensive and would not make sense for the small amount of 4 awg we use.

Our "default" for wires that are running close to 100 amps is 1/0, as 4 awg starts to warm up a bit and with 115 F in the shade, I don't like to fool with it. Nonetheless, the manual called out that 4 awg would fit, so that is what I ordered from our supplier.

Our primary supplier is setup for ABYC type wire, so the items I purchased had one end  crimped with a 1/4 inch hole lug for the MNEDC breaker, the other end they cut the insulation for us, ready to remove and insert into the charge controller terminal.  Asking them to change to a different wire for a handful of connections is kind of a big deal.  They would have to buy a bunch of wire, different terminations, crimp heads, etc and no ROI is possible.

[mike90045]

Ditto.
I sure like the compression grippers on some breakers, where the set screw presses a U shaped clamp, sandwiching the wire between 2 grippers.
Not driving a setscrew through the strands and hoping it jams well enough to hold.

[ClassicCrazy]

We do most of our work to ABYC standards for any application that is mobile.

By "standard", I hope you don't mean "solid copper - not stranded"?  That isn't even recommended for RV use.

Screw down terminals are well known to be marginal even in RV use and are a source of things coming loose, especially in off road.

It would not make any sense for us to use two different solar charge controllers for "officially marine / boat use vs RV", we need consistent design and part use.

As far as that particular application on Saturday, we buy per-terminated / crimped wire so that we don't have to fool around with crimping wires in the field.  We purposely don't carry crimp tools for heavy gauge wire so there is no temptation to do it.  It is difficult to match the performance of a crimp done on professional tools in a factory environment in the field.  I won't say it cannot be done, but it is expensive and would not make sense for the small amount of 4 awg we use.

Our "default" for wires that are running close to 100 amps is 1/0, as 4 awg starts to warm up a bit and with 115 F in the shade, I don't like to fool with it. Nonetheless, the manual called out that 4 awg would fit, so that is what I ordered from our supplier.

Our primary supplier is setup for ABYC type wire, so the items I purchased had one end  crimped with a 1/4 inch hole lug for the MNEDC breaker, the other end they cut the insulation for us, ready to remove and insert into the charge controller terminal.  Asking them to change to a different wire for a handful of connections is kind of a big deal.  They would have to buy a bunch of wire, different terminations, crimp heads, etc and no ROI is possible.

Are you talking about installation in one RV or doing installations for a fleet of RV's ?
I use the Midnite Mini DC Disconnect Box for my Classic installations - holds three panel mount breakers as well as breaker for inverter. It has the place to put the shunt and makes wiring much simpler.   I use stranded wire in it - just not the very fine stranded types you are talking about.
I use a Harbor Freight hydraulic crimper which was inexpensive and does some pretty good crimps for terminals.

Larry

[ClassicCrazy]

I will be honest, part of this suggestion comes from some unexpected challenges that I had with a classic this weekend.

A friend of mine is a navy vet and wanted solar on his RV.  It isn't something he can do, so I am helping him.

I recommended that he purchase a classic 150 for the project and 4 RV size panels in series.  I am providing the rest of the parts and a buddy is helping me with the installation.

We are using ABYC type approaches for things, as that is what we are more used to.  We even used a quad box and the MNEDC breakers so that we could use lug terminated wire.  (they are narrow, but ok)

Things went along pretty well until we attempted to use 4 awg, highly flexible, tin plated, ABYC compliant cable into the classic terminal block.  There isn't a prayer that that terminal block can handle 4 awg tin plated wire, and frankly I am now in the unfortunate position of:
- looking a bit foolish
- Potentially having to cover his loss on this classic and find something else

Anyway, if you can consider to build a version for ABYC use, that would help a lot with RV and Marine type use.

Thanks

Harry

One of the regular forum posters  from Canada posted  a mod he made for his Classic terminal block so it will accept lugged connections.

Larry

[Vic]

Hello Harry,

Many,   many of have ideas for new products,   or modifications to existing products.

MidNite is very busy working on a number of NEW products,   which are very important to the company,   and many,   many customers/new customers.

I,   for one,   sincerely hope that MidNite does NOT make a Marine version of the Classic,   as you outlined,   as the market seems to me to be exceedingly small.   There are a number of Classics in Marine,   and many,   many more in RV applications.   Your proposed mods  have generally not been asked-for on any Forum that  I visit.    A number of folks have tried to use Fine-Strand cable,   and have had issues,   because most CCs are just not intended to use this cable,   and most all of the other components in one's system are not intended to use fine strand cable.

The Classic is tested by ETL,   and conforms to UL1741,   and conforms to NEC,  etc.   Even trying to use Ferrules  on fine strand cable  is probably beyond the scope to any of those standards.   Complying with the codes/standards  is an essential part of limiting one's LIABILITY  for installations that they might perform.

My bottom line,   is  your need seems quite narrow to me.   Perhaps using 12/24V PVs (depending upon battery voltage),   a couple of PWM CCs,   standard cable and connections,   and just be done with it.

Again,  why not just use a MN DC Quad box  right at the Classic,   a short THHN or similar #4 AWG cable into that box (probably less than one foot long),   and make the transition to whatever cable you wish that is listed for that use,   and be done with it??

  ...  I cannot wait for the new MN B17  Inverter/Charger family to begin shipping.

Just some other strong opinions,   Good Luck,    Vic

[harryn]

Hi Vic,

I can understand your point and appreciate the challenges of product development.  I am in the middle of some things as well.

I really do appreciate the efforts of the people at MS - I am not complaining - I am asking them for essentially some re-packaging, not a completely new product.

Yes I realize that they are working on inverters and that is useful for them as a company.  For me as a user, I can already buy inverters that meet ABYC, so my primary interest will be if they are made in the US and if they can deal with heavy inductive loads, such as RV air conditioners.  That may or may not matter to others.

The point I am trying to make is that if you are putting something on a boat, it is supposed to conform to ABYC wiring methods.  I may be completely wrong, but my interpretation of ABYC code is that every single one of these units installed in a boat is non compliant.

ABYC means tin plated, highly stranded wire, terminated with a closed lug.  It isn't a "nice to have", it is code.  There is also a tendency to use the lower end of the ampacity ratings, especially in engine rooms and other compartments that might be at least partially closed off.

The only way that 4 awg wire of any kind can be used and meet the 90 amp rating that MS is putting on it from this controller is to use it at it's absolute maximum possible interpretation.  Essentially that means in a 12 volt system, 4 each, possibly a 5th RV size solar panels are the max allowed.

The kid is being sold as a "marine version" controller, but in reality, it isn't, because the wiring terminal is not to ABYC code.  Not trying to be a pain, but it is a real problem for mobile use, such as RVs, off road, and marine.

I did use the quad and MNDC breakers to get the ring lugs attachment points. I was happy to find a box for those surface mount breakers, because it isn't that common to find.  Not complaining, but I have no idea who came up with the idea of the holes being so offset to the breakers.   Nonetheless, the hole offset is nothing compared to the offset in the classic.

The suggestion of using a solid wire, or less stranded, non tin plated wire is a possible viable short term solution, although it isn't ABYC code compliant.  From a user perspective, it is a significant pain to deal with two different, but similar wires and terminals. 

I know how to crimp and the tools required, but when it is 108F outside and we are on a deadline, we are not going to get into the field crimping business and hope that we have the right parts.   

If MS prefers to develop a different charge controller that has the ABYC type terminal interface (1/0 lugs bolted down or similar) , I am perfectly happy with that.

As far as market size, I suspect that a lot of users would switch to this "marine" version described for the connections vs staying with the existing design even when not in a marine environment.  If you are not seeing posts by people requesting better wire access into MS charge controllers, perhaps you are avoiding reading them.   I see posts about people having a hard time with torque specs, contorting the wires through the offset holes to the existing terminals, etc.  There are not a lot of options on the market for a compliant controller, so perhaps people just grin and bear it.

- sort of like a seat on an American airlines plane.  You are unhappy during the whole experience, but no one else is much better, so suggesting that you would pay 10-20% more for a bigger seat doesn't necessarily help.

[Vic]

Hi Vic,

I can understand your point and appreciate the challenges of product development  ...

   ...   if you are not seeing posts by people requesting better wire access into MS charge controllers, perhaps you are avoiding reading them.   I see posts about people having a hard time with torque specs, contorting the wires through the offset holes to the existing terminals, etc.  There are not a lot of options on the market for a compliant controller, so perhaps people just grin and bear it.

Hi Harry,  I DO understand what you are saying.  I would not ever do an installation on a boat,   and I do not understand the  nuances in Codes that apply to boats,   so I cannot say what types of hardware those codes apply to.

Speaking of some folks having trouble using an improper type of cable for connections to Classics,  perhaps you missed the following quote,  pulled from my above Post   "  ..  A number of folks have tried to use Fine-Strand cable,   and have had issues,   because most CCs are just not intended to use this cable   ...   ."

In actuality,   I have read every Post on this Forum (except for a few in the Open-Source computer Topic,  since the Forum's inception ...

I was NOT suggesting that you use Solid wire for your connections  --  just the common THHN stranding 19 strands is common for gauges in the range we are speaking of.

If there was a large demand,  and your interpretation of Codes for boats is correct,   it would seem that there would be a number of CCs which could accommodate fine strand cable.

Also,   it does seem,  that you have chosen to apply some regulations that might be nice in an RV,  but really do not apply.

Also,   it is certainly much easier to dress THHN type cables in compact wiring areas than are fine-strand cables.   Just bend the THHN with pliers,   once,   and the cable will stay in place.

Not to try to put a too fine point on this.   Good Luck Harry,  in your quest.
Vic