Expanding the AUX in the Classic with a "JNIOR" Box?

[binkino]

Some time ago, I was asking if it would be possible, to make an expansion for the classic, to get more "AUX" in-/output


Now - just an idea ...


In cinema, we use the JNior Box to switch things like audience room light, curtain, and so on
If you need more then the 8 GPIO of the show-server, you prefer to use one of these.

One of our JNior (310) wasn't working reliable and I replaced it last week and I have it now for playing with it at home
It's a really nice thing! After updating the firmware, looks like working again.

The 310 has 8 relays for output and 8 digital input (on/off, not analogue)

The JNior also uses MODBUS, has Serial and LAN RJ45


Is it possible to expand Classic's firmware (and the LA) to communicate with the JNior and use its I/O?
Like the AUX ...

In my case, I would only need the outputs with the Classic.
In the JNior itself you can write makros, (Web GUI, but Java rubbish) so say input 1 and input 3 are active, close relay 5. Also set how long it is closed, set also to manually reset after an "alarm" and so on.
And there is also an Androd/iOS app, to direct view/control the in/outputs


Have played with it via telnet, just very easy commands:
c1 = close relais 1
o1 = open relais 1 (again)
c1p = pulse relais 1 (you can set the time for the switch is closed and opens again)
r = reset, open all relais
and many more commands ...




If someone is interesting in it, here a link:
http://www.integpg.com/
Communication: http://www.integpg.com/software/communication-protocols/

The JNIOR supports a variety of communication protocols including TCP/IP, Modbus/TCP, serial and OPC for integrating the JNIOR controller and I/O with other applications.

Manuals: http://www.integpg.com/support/manuals/

[boB]

I suppose that the JNIOR might work but I could not find any information on the I/O capabilities when going
to their web site.

You would need to have a controller that could take get information from the Classic and then
turn on and off the output ports of the JNIOR and/or poll the inputs of the JNIOR and
control the Classic from that information...  i.e. a server computer of some sort, unless the JNIOR
has this kind of programability.  I suspect that a Raspberri Pi might be a controller to do the job.

boB

[WillEert]

Or an Arduino 

Will

[boB]

Or an Arduino 

Will

Will...  Isn't an "Arduino"  just an AVR chip from Atmel ?

boB

[bscloutier]

If you all are interested, I designed the thing (i.e. the JNIOR). Oh, and you really need to get a Series 4 because it kicks the Lama's @^#!

[bscloutier]

But seriously, The series 4 runs an OS that I have written from scratch (JANOS).

The Series 3 runs on an old Dallas Semiconductor (now Maxim/IC) DS400 controller. This was an 8-bit 8051 derivative beefed up to be sold as an embedded JVM. Consequently the JniorOS that operates the Series 3 is written in Java and runs like a pig. That is mostly because whoever wrote the JVM didn't have a clue how to write a reasonable memory manager.

The Series 4 runs a Renesas RX600 series processor (RX63N) which in comparison is 32-bit and runs at 96 MHz. JANOS is written in C and there is no 3rd-party code in the entire thing. It doesn't even use the Renesas C Library. The performance improvement is easily over 200X. Applications are still written in Java but I wrote the JVM to run JAR files right out of Netbeans. The Series 3 required some weird converter. The JANOS memory manager rocks. Even though the managed language requires garbage collection you can damn well come close to real time program control.

So if any of you are bored and want to find out anything about the JNIOR (either the 310, 312 or 314 or the 410, 412, 414) you can ask me about it. If you are interested in the Cinema application or others (you can find the JNIOR running the doors for people movers in the Atlanta airport for instance), I can hook you up with the applications engineer, Kevin. Obviously I had nothing better to do this evening but to find you guys.

You can beat us up directly as we (Kevin and I) just started running our own forum at http://jnior.com. Now that's real new so you'll need the balls to be the first to join. But, honestly, show any other forum where you can communicate with THE designers of any product that you might use.

Oh, and as to solar... this is my backyard http://www.cloutieronline.com. 

[dbcollen]

But, honestly, show any other forum where you can communicate with THE designers of any product that you might use

This one 

[binkino]

@boB:
was just an idea 
No I am building a little web server for the datas, let's see where the way leads me,
may be it will be possible, to use the datas to remote the JNior



@dbcollen:
I'm speechless 

The series 3 is not so bad, if you don't want to use the Java web gui
For our cinema use, it only has to switch its relays ... controlled by the Doremi server.

The JNior was running now for about 6 years
And I have no access to a Serie 4 for private use
The 310 will work for me at home.


btw. I installed the Android App - just wanted to contact INTEG, if there will be a newer version, with some more features?



Thanks for the forum link, have forwarded to our external technician, he is a real guru, this can be interesting for him


I like the content and design of your solar webseite, too.
That is something my Solar website will has to go, like this, like it.
Let's see. Just started with the help of welmore

[bscloutier]

I've been operating this 20KW PV installation now for 5 years. Actually the two of us (Kevin and I) developed the monitoring for it. I've got data for every 10 seconds of sunshine for over 5 years. This system covers what the house uses and enough more to offset any natural gas expense. We heat and cool with a geothermal system and so I have also given up fossil fueled heating. Electric bills have been $0.00. I have thank Pennsylvania in forcing the power company to provide essentially free energy storage.

BTW, I have a JNIOR that can collect the monitoring data off the SMA inverter's RS485 network. But its a PC that runs the collection and handles the MySQL database.

You might think that I popped in here to sell JNIORs but really we are enthusiastic about what we have built and are driven to share. Our support is free and we often develop or at least initially implement applications without charge. So the offer of access to us is really worth something. Although, we are not all that excited about the Series 3. It's not just a cinema product and we would be happy to help anyone with anything.

There is a Series 4 on the open network allowing us to test its security and ability to withstand attacks. An application runs on it that maps the locations of hosts attempting to login and failing. The map is available as http://honeypot.integpg.com/map.php. You wouldn't stick your Raspberry Pi out on the Internet and expect it to survive very long would you?

Anyway, let us know if we can help you learn that Series 3. What is it a 310? There are actually a lot 312s out in cinemas so it could be a 12. 

[welmore]

The program you are reviewing could be modified to talk to the other device.  It reads the Classics, can follow whatever logic you need and then talks to the JNIOR via LAN based Modbus.

What are you interested in monitoring and controlling?

[binkino]

a thought - I was thinking about this today

Somewhere in the net I read about adding commands in a php (?) page sending commands to the JNior.
A script was running in the background, to keep the communication to the JNior, and then sending the commands.
We could combine states of the datas, they are displayed in the page, "IF THEN OR NOT" variables (we used to say haha)  to execute the commands.
(but keeping in mind, the security factor. I would open all doors to my LAN, wouldn't I?)
But first, I finish my version of the webpage

This will also be a exciting project, to have JNior for this purpose


@bscloutier:
thank you for the offer, appreciate this,
and don't worry, I did not think you want to sell me one,
one problem are my not so great English skills and write all things like I would like to. And google translation helps with most words, but not in full phrases / sentences.

It is a 310 with 8 in and 8 out
But we also have a 312 with 4 inputs, 12 outputs in another cinema room

The map is interesting, no attacks from Germany

[boB]

bscloutier, good to see another embedded geek on our little forum !

I was trying to find information on your JNIOR's  I/O capabilities.

Is there a URL you could point me to for that ?  Your series 4 device maybe ?

The Lama's a** ?  Sounds kinda like Winamp !

Thanks,
boB

[bscloutier]

So the 310 is a prior generation of the JNIOR designed c2003. Yes, it has 8 relay outputs. Those are 1A small signal relays, dry contact. You need to be careful with inductive loads (add a diode). There are 8 inputs. Those are isolated and you pretty much just need to put enough voltage on them to drive the isolator's LED. Those are protected against over voltage. The input impedance is about 1200 Ohms.

The 312 just has 12 relays and 4 inputs. The 314 goes the other way with 12 inputs and only 4 relays. We also have expansion modules to add power relays (10A) off that Sensor Port as well as simple analog (10V and 4-20ma) functions. Also there are temperature and environmental sensors for that.

The current Series 4 is the same but the model numbers are 410, 412 and 414.

However, you can only do PHP and handle dynamic communication on the web side with the Series 4. To be honest the 410 is so much better that even we cringe when we need to support the Series 3. It is no longer being manufactured.

I am hoping to get a JNIOR monitoring someone's Classic. I'll then post the code for that. But I might be able to supply you with a 410 if you are interested in refining the application. You can private message on that thought.

If you have questions about using the JNIOR, think about joining the forum that Kevin and I have just set up at http://jnior.com. It bypasses INTEG customer support creating a direct connection between a technical user and the developers. You know, to support the outside of the box stuff (e.g. not cinema). Maybe we could do that some in here if the JNIOR were to have its own area.

@boB
Sadly our documentation sucks. There is some but it isn't easy to find. Part of it is because we ship mostly in bulk to OEMs who don't need the docs or fancy retail packaging. The best way to find out anything it to ask us. I've been trying to fix all that but... Anyway, I have a few YouTube videos that may or may not help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUEyeGtQRo if I copied that right.
You can join the above mentioned forum and ask Kevin and I anything and everything.

Not for nothing but I can share technical details on everything. We can fix bugs when identified and replicated in hours. We can even take a great idea for the OS and implement it same day. Um... but you need to have a Series 4.

[mike90045]

..... Those are 1A small signal relays, dry contact. You need to be careful with inductive loads (add a diode). .......

Not sure what you are saying.  If you connect an inductive load to relay contacts, you think you need a back EMF diode ?
Those are contacts, they don't get into the control board anywhere.   I would be concerned about the relay driver coil, it WOULD need a back EMF diode, because that circuit is wired to a transistor that drives the coil.

Electric door strike electromagnet
https://progeny.co.uk/back-emf-suppression/

relay coil  ( 1N4007 )
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/110574/how-to-choose-a-flyback-diode-for-a-relay

Complex usage (DC motor)
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2016/dec/how-to-power-and-control-brushless-dc-motors

[bscloutier]

Not sure what you are saying.  If you connect an inductive load to relay contacts, you think you need a back EMF diode ?
Those are contacts, they don't get into the control board anywhere.   I would be concerned about the relay driver coil, it WOULD need a back EMF diode, because that circuit is wired to a transistor that drives the coil.

Correct. These are tiny relay contacts isolated from the JNIOR electronics and unlike the Power 4ROUT expansion board there are no snubbers included. A lot of people use the small signal relay to engage a larger contactor. The arc that occurs when the circuit opens will eventually cause our relay to fail. So you should include a diode to handle the back EMF.

For those confused by this let me try to explain. If you are going to control an external relay with the JNIOR (or any small signal relay in any device) you connect your voltage source through the JNIOR's relay and then to the coil of the external relay eventually then to GND. The JNIOR closes its output and current flows. The current through the external relay's coil generates a large magnetic field which then physically yanks on the contacts of that device making it do its thing.

A lot of energy is stored in that magnetic field. When you interrupt the circuit as the JNIOR opens its little relay that magnetic field begins to collapse. That is good because you now want the external relay to open as well. That external coil is a huge inductor and the magnetic field in response generates a large voltage across the coil working to keep the current flowing. Well it can't because you have broken the circuit.  Eventually that voltage becomes thousands of volts and the air between the JNIOR's relay contacts breaks down. The electrons arc across the gap. The violence of the event slowly destroys the relay contacts.

To be real simplistic... Coils work to maintain constant current. Capacitors work to maintain constant voltage. Coils (inductors) use voltage to maintain the current. Capacitors use current to maintain voltage. And, resistors are just a drag.

It'll work for a while. But if you are installing something that you want to last 10 years or so, it won't. The JNIORs are used to control the doors on the people movers in the Atlanta airport and we found out that their service personal had been replacing our surface mount relays as they failed. It was happening a lot. We suggested they install diodes. We haven't heard of any issue since.

So the diode goes across the external relay's coil in a way that allows the current to continue flowing as the energy stored in the magnetic field decays. This prevents the high voltage (back EMF) and protects the controllers relay contacts.

Sorry for the attempted explanation. Relays seem so simple to most of us that these things often are passed over.

There is no diode built into the JNIOR because we don't really know how the relay will be employed. An internal diode would cause issues in some applications. On the power relay module there is a bidirectional snubber that can be thought of as two back to back diodes that pass current only at high voltages (but less than the breakdown voltage of the air gap). I would have those in the JNIOR but they are about the same size as the relay and there isn't the space. Obviously with a 10A relay you can generate some serious arcs and the protection is an absolute requirement.

The Series 4 JNIOR relays eventually went to 2A. If you have an older one it may still have the 1A relays in it. Omron relays were 1A. We now use TE Connectivity relays at 2A.

If you don't know if something is inductive you can enable it by holding one of the wires against your battery source. Watch carefully when you disconnect the wire. If you see an arc then you need to protect the relay contacts with a diode. You can add the diode and confirm that the arc is gone.

Hopefully I made some sense.