Aux Outputs Feature Request

[Matrix]

Thanks for the replies.  So I tested some things based our your suggestions. 

I think the "Wink" / Flash I am seeing must be either the Inverter or at best on the DC side.  If I turn all circuits to the AC Grid fed power where no circuit or wire goes thru the Inverter load panel,  I see almost not "wink"/flash at all. 

If I re-route all the circuits thru the Inverter load panel,  but turn the Inverter off and allowing the AC Grid Line in to the Inverter to supply the loads (the inverter itself is bypassed and AC is simply passed thru) I see no "Wink" / Flash at all.  In this config,  the load to the well pump and all lights are passing thru the Inverter load panel, the Transfer switch panel and the Main house panel ... BUT ... rather than the power coming from a DC source like Solar or Batteries and then Inverted from DC to AC,  the AC power is being supplied by the grid, thru the inverter box,  but the inverter is off.

So in testing using both above scenarios,  This has allowed me to test and ask,  is the problem either a connection at an AC wire nut connection, AC breaker or bus bar or wire size.  The answer would be most likely NO.  As the "wink"/Flash is NOT occurring when connected this way. 

OK,  so turn off AC Grid power in to the inverter,  Turn the Inverter on,  and switch/connect all circuits to the inverter that is now being powered by a DC source such as battery or Solar.  With lights on,  Turn on the well pump .... Lights "Wink"/Flash when the load is applied at the initial millisecond start up surge.   So it is ONLY occurring when the Inverter is inverting,  and does not appear to be caused by AC  wiring or wire size (all of which is over sized for the loads)

So on to DC.  Is it battery cable size.  Well it is not size,  I am using 4/0 for a max load of less than 100 DC amps.  DC breaker is 250amp.  Could it be battery cable length?  That is 10 ft.   Screw Connections are all tight.  Might be the compression fitting  between the battery cable and lugs??? 

I supposed it might be that the battery bank cannot handle the instantaneous surge amps for just the start up ... but I have run the system in a continuous state at or above the surge loads (I have run the system at 3000 watts for several minutes) and do not experience a brown out. 

So In the case of my lights flickering,  before the pump comes on,  the loads is at about 150 watts.  When the pump starts and runs,  the load levels out to about 850 watts.   I do not know how hi the surge is for pump start,  but I have never measured more than 950 watts at the pumps start up by itself.   It runs at 745 watts.

So it seems it is either the way that my inverter is - which if this is not typical of inverters,  is a warranty issue.    OR,  it is a DC battery cable or lug connection,  OR it is that my battery bank just is not large enough to support the load for the surge.     Any other ideas? 

But it is this surge,  while on Inverter and DC power,  that has caused me not to us AUX 1 except in modes where conditions turn on and off one time in a cycle, basically once per day.  Modes like Waste Not Hi or Diversion will turn off and on several times in just a few minutes.  Modes like SOC% Hi will turn on once and off once. 

Ideas?

[Matrix]

Also tested with a DVM on the battery + and - posts.     With no Solar source coming in,  no charging taking place,  batteries are 98% charged and resting at 26.7v (24v 435ah battery bank).  The load is at 85 watts. 

Turn on the pump,  and the voltage changes so fast on the DVM that i can hardly see what happens,  but it appeared to never sag below 25v and instantly leveled off at 25.7v while the pump was running.  Turn the pump off and battery DC voltage returns to 26.6v

[Vic]

Matrix,

Some types of lights are fairly susceptible to fairly small,  but quick changes in AC Line voltage.

Some Inverters are notorious for regulating AC output voltage relatively slowly.

Classic Florescent lights with low-frequency Ballasts,  and some LED lights  seem quite sensitive to motor starting loads causing flicker.

You might want to experiment with different brands and styles of light fixtures.

I have not heard of/read about the Conext SW line of inverter/chargers being slow at regulating AC output with short Surge loads ...   

FWIW,    Good Luck,   Vic

[Matrix]

So lets test another hi load source.  Rather than an inductive load like a 750w 110v pump on L2 of the inverter,  lets try a 1025w 110v AC water heater element on L1 of the inverter.

Load is at 85watts.  Turn on the water heater element ... the "wink"/flash in the lights is almost not detectable.   And certainly not like the start of the pump.   

Any other tests I should run?  Is this typical of an Inverter?  Or should I call Schneider Electric  about this Conext SW 4024 Inverter ??

[Matrix]

Matrix,

Some types of lights are fairly susceptible to fairly small,  but quick changes in AC Line voltage.

Some Inverters are notorious for regulating AC output voltage relatively slowly.

Classic Florescent lights with low-frequency Ballasts,  and some LED lights  seem quite sensitive to motor starting loads causing flicker.

You might want to experiment with different brands and styles of light fixtures.

I have not heard of/read about the Conext SW line of inverter/chargers being slow at regulating AC output with short Surge loads ...   

FWIW,    Good Luck,   Vic

Thanks.    will try other lights.   Any chance I got a bad inverter?    It is only 2 months old.

[Vic]

Our Posts crossed,

One other thing regarding the effective impedance of the battery.

Batteries that have been fully-charged,  but with little charge power available (like when the sun fades);   Lead Acid batteries  have relatively high impedance when they are just off charge (and when they are nearly fully-depleted).  This highish impedance means that for a given load current on the battery,  there will be a significantly larger battery terminal voltage reduction,  compared to a battery being operated in the "flat voltage"  portion of the curve,  or when there is significant PV power available.

In the case of batteries that had been fully-charged quite recently,  much of this effect probably comes from Surface Charge.

FWIW,   Vic

[Matrix]

Incandescent Christmas tree lights do not "wink"/flicker at all when pump starts up. 

[Vic]

Incandescent Christmas tree lights do not "wink"/flicker at all when pump starts up.

Yes,   most incandescent bulbs are fairly slow in responding to rapid changes in applied voltage.

AND,  generally,  even high quality inverter/chargers have few,  if any specs on output AC voltage verses load changes,    and as such,   this would probably not be a Warranty issue,   IMO.   Would guess that such performance of inverters  would probably be from design trade-offs/decisions made during product design.

Some/many of these decisions are probably based on cost considerations needed to meet a certain target selling price,   size,  weight,   etc ...

Certainly  battery condition/performance,  and interconnect design and construction can have a very large effect of flicker on lighting products   ...

Just guesses/opinions,   am not a Power Electronics design engineer.     Vic

[Matrix]

Yes,   most incandescent bulbs are fairly slow in responding to rapid changes in applied voltage.

AND,  generally,  even high quality inverter/chargers have few,  if any specs on output AC voltage verses load changes,    and as such,   this would probably not be a Warranty issue,   IMO.   Would guess that such performance of inverters  would probably be from design trade-offs/decisions made during product design.

Some/many of these decisions are probably based on cost considerations needed to meet a certain target selling price,   size,  weight,   etc ...

Certainly  battery condition/performance,  and interconnect design and construction can have a very large effect of flicker on lighting products   ...

Just guesses/opinions,   am not a Power Electronics design engineer.     Vic

Sounds reasonable to me.  Thanks for your input.   

So back to the reason I originally posted this firmware update request ... Would the "Wink"/Flicker that is being picked up by some of my lighting cause problems for more sensitive equipment  like Refrigerators with printed circuit boards, or modems/routers, computers etc???   (assuming the issues is indeed the Inverter and not something I can track down as a loose connection)

[Vic]

Matrix,

In general,  devices that have Switching power supplies (like Computers,  Routers,  TVs,  etc)  are able to "ride through" small bumps in the AC voltage,   and usually even Brown-outs.

Inexpensive DMMs  take samples of their inputs   SO slowly,  that they are generally useless in trying to actually measure short changes of their inputs.

On the other hand,  IMO,  your inverter DC cables are about twice the maximum length that I would like to use.   Even at shorter lengths,  you will want these cables to be close to each other (ideally twisted together).

If you could fairly easily reduce the length to about five feet, that could help.

You could try to measure the temperature of each battery cable connection with an IR heat gun.  You would want a heavy load on the inverter,  or have heavy charging currents for ten or so minutes to allow the lug/terminal temperatures to rise and stabilize.   Absolutes are not as important as differences,  because it can be difficult to say how much temperature rise is good or not so good.

You CAN measure the total voltage drop of each cable using the millivolt scale on your DMM,   also under a constant high current out of or into the batteries.   This will be the total drop of the cable,  crimps and lugs.

FWIW,   Vic

Later,  Vic

[Matrix]

Thanks Vic,  I will give measuring the voltage at both ends of the cables a try.

when you say ...

you will want these cables to be close to each other (ideally twisted together).

... do you mean twist the negative and positive battery cables together?   Not being sarcastic,  but what would be the benefit of that?  I would be easy to do it.   Right now,  they are ran thru a 2" piece of flex conduit.  There is plenty of room for air in there (they are not tight in the conduit).

But it is not practical to cut them much.  I could probably get them about 2 foot shorter down to about 8 foot.  But that is about as short as I could get them for the location. 



The battery posts are in the far right side of the battery box,  and the 4/0 cable is inside the 2" conduit,  but as you cans see this is as close as I can get the batteries and still have them outside in the carport for venting purposes.

[CDN-VT]

So lets test another hi load source.  Rather than an inductive load like a 750w 110v pump on L2 of the inverter,  lets try a 1025w 110v AC water heater element on L1 of the inverter.

Load is at 85watts.  Turn on the water heater element ... the "wink"/flash in the lights is almost not detectable.   And certainly not like the start of the pump.   

Any other tests I should run?  Is this typical of an Inverter?  Or should I call Schneider Electric  about this Conext SW 4024 Inverter ??

Load of Water heater element ??

Im thinking the Water pump is A capacitor start type & poorly matched . (cap to windings)

I had a log splitter (Asian  from a box store , No Backup help) blow a motor run cap 60uF  , only had a different size of uF , the winks were bad on Grid power & the motor startup was slower . Bought a well made 60uF Cap & all is fine , quick starts & not even a flicker .. Reading your only loading one leg 110V , you will see some flicker , 220Vac would be less imbalance , but cheap motors will do that .
grundfos pumps are pretty easy on the surges

VT

[Vic]

Matrix,

Regarding twisting the inverter cables together,   was referring ONLY to the ten foot cables connecting the inverter to the battery,  so,  only those two cables.

When those cables are in very close proximity to each other  the self inductance of each cable is reduced.   When they are twisted together,  the self inductance is further-reduced.

Inductance is the property that impedes the flow of current.   The impedance to current flow will show result in greater voltage drop,   for a period of time.   SO,   reducing this inductance is a good thing,   and should reduce the dynamic voltage drop that the inverter sees.

This twisting of cables has nothing to do with the battery interconnect cables.

Vic

[Matrix]

Thanks. I figured u meant just the main battery cables. I will indeed do that when I take it all apart and shorten the cables. I think I can shorten them by about 2 foot

[CDN-VT]

Matrix,

Regarding twisting the inverter cables together,   was referring ONLY to the ten foot cables connecting the inverter to the battery,  so,  only those two cables.

When those cables are in very close proximity to each other  the self inductance of each cable is reduced.   When they are twisted together,  the self inductance is further-reduced.

Inductance is the property that impedes the flow of current.   The impedance to current flow will show result in greater voltage drop,   for a period of time.   SO,   reducing this inductance is a good thing,   and should reduce the dynamic voltage drop that the inverter sees.

This twisting of cables has nothing to do with the battery interconnect cables.

Vic

Also for Boats with Compasses etc , It will diminish the onboard Variation for deflection when power is used called Deviation !!
Tight twists = Cable size (dia) x 3 is what we did on plastic boats
VT