Author Topic: Charging with Classic  (Read 1145 times)

asdex

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2018, 01:37:52 PM »
Thanks, I'll get one of those. I see them on AliExpress.
RZ Automotive Antifreez Refractometer Freezing point Urea Adblue Battery fluid Glass water tester meter ATC Tool RZ115 NZ$18.70.
Cheers
6 x JA Solar 320w solar panels, 2 x Solarex MSX-83, 3 x Helios H750 panels, 4 x Suntellite 260w.
4 x 6v Crown CR430 batteries (24v), Classic and WBJr, FX2024 inverter and Mate, Trimetric monitor, Soma 1000 wind generator (to install), Alibaba solar pump. Air X 400w wind generator.

Vic

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2018, 03:46:17 PM »
Hi asdex,

Good that you have a new Hydro,   and that the SGs appear to risen.

Had meant to Link to the following Surrette Battery article on Measuring SGs:
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/4347-measuring-specific-gravity

There have been discussions regarding using automotive type Refractometers for SG measurements.   You will probably want to make a Calibration fluid,   to ensure accurate readings,   at least,   from some Refractometers.

If one is careful when taking readings with a Hydro,   they can be accurate and repeatable   ...   just   RINSE,   RINSE    and   RINSE after each measuring session.   If you see any bubbles on the Hydro float on inside the glass tube,   your readings will be suspect.

Seems that your situation was not as dire as expected  --  a good thing!

Let us know how you are doing,   and if you are using a Refractometer  please let us know how it works for you.  Thanks,   Vic
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

ClassicCrazy

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2018, 08:01:27 PM »
I would calibrate mine using distilled water to the bottom line. Seems like I heard that if you really want to ensure preciseness you would want to get a calibration acid fluid and also check it up on the upper lines too. But I never did that .

Larry
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Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
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asdex

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2018, 04:32:13 PM »
Thanks for that information.
I might add my two spare panels to my existing system.
I have 6 JASolar panels and I'll add the two Suntillite panels. I have attached the specifications of both. Will the Midnite Classic be ok to add the two panels in parallel?
Thanks,
6 x JA Solar 320w solar panels, 2 x Solarex MSX-83, 3 x Helios H750 panels, 4 x Suntellite 260w.
4 x 6v Crown CR430 batteries (24v), Classic and WBJr, FX2024 inverter and Mate, Trimetric monitor, Soma 1000 wind generator (to install), Alibaba solar pump. Air X 400w wind generator.

Vic

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2018, 05:31:48 PM »
Graham,

The JA Solar PVs are 72-cell types.   The Suntillite are 60-cell PVs.  Their Vmps are not close enough to work well on a single CC.

The standard rule-of-thumb for PV matching,  is that the STC Vmp voltage should,   ideally,   match within 5%,   and should not be a 10% or greater mismatch for PVs different PVs wired in parallel,   as would be your case.

The Vmp difference is greater than 10% (about 16%),   so,   this would not be a great match,   IMO.

Vic
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 05:39:41 PM by Vic »
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

asdex

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2018, 07:40:12 PM »
Ok, thanks for that info. I might buy a couple of 72 cell panels. I think our existing setup is ok to charge the batteries but we also heat our water in summer with the panels and a 24 volt element.
I have the absorb voltage at 30 volts at the moment and are watching water level and hydrometer readings.
6 x JA Solar 320w solar panels, 2 x Solarex MSX-83, 3 x Helios H750 panels, 4 x Suntellite 260w.
4 x 6v Crown CR430 batteries (24v), Classic and WBJr, FX2024 inverter and Mate, Trimetric monitor, Soma 1000 wind generator (to install), Alibaba solar pump. Air X 400w wind generator.

Vic

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2018, 08:09:38 PM »
OK Graham,

Did run the Classic Sizer for your existing 6 JA Solar PVs.   You do have a bit of room for some added PV power,   although,   it is often best to not run power electronics  at,   or near their maximum limits.

Attached the Sizer output for six 320 PVs.

FWIW,   Vic
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

asdex

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2018, 11:22:20 PM »
Thanks for that. Seems it's going to be a bit tricky then. I'll see how the batteries go at charging up at the higher voltage first and wait for my refractometer to arrive.
Thanks,
6 x JA Solar 320w solar panels, 2 x Solarex MSX-83, 3 x Helios H750 panels, 4 x Suntellite 260w.
4 x 6v Crown CR430 batteries (24v), Classic and WBJr, FX2024 inverter and Mate, Trimetric monitor, Soma 1000 wind generator (to install), Alibaba solar pump. Air X 400w wind generator.

Matrix

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2018, 07:22:05 AM »
I ordered a refractometer from one of the links on this thread.  Got it yesterday,  calibrated the instrument and checked a few cells.

When I was at or nearly fully charged

Refractometer = 1.281
Glass Hydrometer = 1.281 (after temp comp)
Hydro Volt = 1.286

Each is repeatable,  So I will continue to use the Hydro Volt because it is the easiest to use/read and just subtract .005 as  I might at times have been slightly under charging at times because it reads .005 higher than the others. 

Graham, I do hope you get it all sorted out.  For me I am having to charge at 2.64v per cell to get fully charged.    I have no idea why that is,  but I do know if  I use a lower voltage (2.46v - 2.58v) what happens is the Classic does not time out stops charging because i have reached my end amp setting of 4.3 amps (for a 435ah battery) and I am not fully charged. 

Trojan said it was OK to charge at that voltage,  but oddly,  when I did an EQ last night,  the SW charger would not go even that hi.  I ran at 31.4v and not the 32v I had it set at.  I think that may have been temp comp or something.  But I have found the SW for everything but an inverter to be less than acceptable.  Maybe i have a dude,  but Schneider tells me that its doing what it is supposed to do. 

But here is something to wonder,  I did not do a fully charge,EQ and then record the SG when I placed these batteries into service (my bad).  But after an EQ I can get the cells to rise to 1.287-1.298.     Now that I have good repeatable readings on 3 different instruments, Do you consider fully charged to be 1.277 (Trojan spec) or do you go all the way to what you can fully achieve (1.287-1.298) for a full charge?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 07:47:14 AM by Matrix »
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REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S-3P 2565w-STC 1926w-NMOT Array / Classic 150 / Conext SW 4024 Inverter
Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S  with 7' of 4/0 cable
24 volt system /  Need 3200Whs Daily
My System Install

Vic

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2018, 04:36:25 PM »

   ...   Graham, I do hope you get it all sorted out.  For me I am having to charge at 2.64v per cell to get fully charged.    I have no idea why that is,  but I do know if  I use a lower voltage (2.46v - 2.58v) what happens is the Classic does not time out stops charging because i have reached my end amp setting of 4.3 amps (for a 435ah battery) and I am not fully charged. 

Trojan said it was OK to charge at that voltage,  but oddly,  when I did an EQ last night,  the SW charger would not go even that hi.  I ran at 31.4v and not the 32v I had it set at.  I think that may have been temp comp or something.  But I have found the SW for everything but an inverter to be less than acceptable.  Maybe i have a dude,  but Schneider tells me that its doing what it is supposed to do. 

But here is something to wonder,  I did not do a fully charge,EQ and then record the SG when I placed these batteries into service (my bad).  But after an EQ I can get the cells to rise to 1.287-1.298.     Now that I have good repeatable readings on 3 different instruments, Do you consider fully charged to be 1.277 (Trojan spec) or do you go all the way to what you can fully achieve (1.287-1.298) for a full charge?

Matrix,

It is possible that Trojan has changed the chemistry of their FLAs,  from what was being used in the past

Had wondered that with many/most automotive batteries being Lead Calcium,  if  that changed the economics of deep-cycle batteries  --  perhaps there is less Antinomy in deep cycle batteries.  This should reduce the amount of Gassing.   This could mean that for taller batteries,   higher voltages might be required for a full-charge,   and to fully mix the electrolyte.

You are doing the  right thing,  by increasing the Vabs and Veq,   and measuring SGs  to determine what these voltages need to be.

But for my 13 year-old Surrette FLAs,   your voltages  would be amazingly high for my batteries.

Regarding {b},   Have mentioned this previously,   in another Thread,  that some folks recommend waiting to take final SG readings,   after the battery has been in Float for two hours,   or so  (IN Float,   vs Float-MPPT).   It is possible that there could be some false SG readings that could be caused by plate debris suspended in the electrolyte,   that requires some time to settle out.  This debris could change the density of the electrolyte.

Just a quick couple of thoughts.   Vic
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 04:43:04 PM by Vic »
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

Matrix

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2018, 05:24:28 PM »
But for my 13 year-old Surrette FLAs,   your voltages  would be amazingly high for my batteries.

Regarding {b},   Have mentioned this previously,   in another Thread,  that some folks recommend waiting to take final SG readings,   after the battery has been in Float for two hours,   or so  (IN Float,   vs Float-MPPT).   It is possible that there could be some false SG readings that could be caused by plate debris suspended in the electrolyte,   that requires some time to settle out.  This debris could change the density of the electrolyte.

Just a quick couple of thoughts.   Vic
13 years ... I hope I get that much "mileage" out of my Trojan L16s.  That would more than pay for the cost of replacing them at that time :D.  At this point,  it will take me 5 years to have saved enough to be able to replace the batteries alone (not including the Solar/Inverter system)

The hard part about going into float for a few hours,  is usually when I hit float (as I did today here at 5:15pm) ... I have made 9.2 kwh's, but now that sun is going down,  I start actually using battery power again,  so there is "wait time" where the batteries just sit in float, at least not for very long.    Perhaps I will turn on the electrons for the grid and let them sit for a while and go re check.  Today my weakest cell hit 1.284 as the CC went into float. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 05:27:59 PM by Matrix »
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REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S-3P 2565w-STC 1926w-NMOT Array / Classic 150 / Conext SW 4024 Inverter
Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S  with 7' of 4/0 cable
24 volt system /  Need 3200Whs Daily
My System Install

Westbranch

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2018, 06:22:02 PM »
Matrix, how many cycles do you have on those cells now?
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Matrix

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2018, 09:26:56 PM »
Matrix, how many cycles do you have on those cells now?
Well they went into service Oct 16, 2017,  Normal discharge 25-35%.  5-6 times I intentionally discharged down to 55-50% SOC.  And I have probably skipped 15 days where the batteries sat in float all day,  So I am guessing 80-110 cycles ... maybe a touch more. 
Grid-Assist Off-Grid
REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S-3P 2565w-STC 1926w-NMOT Array / Classic 150 / Conext SW 4024 Inverter
Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S  with 7' of 4/0 cable
24 volt system /  Need 3200Whs Daily
My System Install

Matrix

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2018, 09:31:29 PM »
... some folks recommend waiting to take final SG readings,   after the battery has been in Float for two hours,   or so  (IN Float,   vs Float-MPPT).   It is possible that there could be some false SG readings that could be caused by plate debris suspended in the electrolyte,   that requires some time to settle out.  This debris could change the density of the electrolyte.
Well i let them sit for 3 hours with no load.  Float ended at 5:45.   Retested my known weakest cell and my highest cell.  Weakest was at 1.282 down from 1.284 at the end of absorb.  Same .002 point margin for the strongest cell.  And there is an 11 point gap between the highest cell and the lowest cell.  Trojan says EQ when the gap becomes 30 point or more. 
Grid-Assist Off-Grid
REC TwinPeak 2 285W 3S-3P 2565w-STC 1926w-NMOT Array / Classic 150 / Conext SW 4024 Inverter
Trojan L16H-AC 435Ah bank 4S  with 7' of 4/0 cable
24 volt system /  Need 3200Whs Daily
My System Install

blevac

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Re: Charging with Classic
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2018, 02:45:28 PM »
Hi there,

I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to batteries and charging but I have an extensive technical background so I'm pretty comfortable with all other aspects of my solar kit. I know much of this is covered in other posts so I apologize if I am doubling up but there is a lot of information on this forum to dig through! I'm just looking for opinions on a couple of assumptions I am making based on a bunch of different posts I have already read here on the forum.

So based on the other posts I should start with a bit of info on my system. This is a portion of my final system set up to get me through construction.

4 x 230W Sharp ND230 panels
1 x Classic 150
1 x MS4024PAE Inverter
24V Battery Bank (Full River AGM) 830AH (aiming for 20% DOD)

I have managed to learn (from this forum as well as other sources) how to determine the settings I need for my system like bulk, absorb, float voltages, temp compensation, max current etc. My system has been online for about two weeks now and is getting through absorb mode into float a few times a week even though it has not been particularly sunny. I have set my absorb time to 4Hrs based on a forum post where a user with the same battery type as mine was given an absorb time directly from FullRiver. Now based on posts I have read here I am learning that in order for the Classic to adjust absorb time based on end amps I should add a Whizbang Jr. which I will do in the spring when I build the final system.

The Manufacturer recommends end current at 0.7% which is about 5.8A for my bank. What I am seeing using the MyMidnight website is that the Classic is going all the way through the 4Hr absorb time. At that point the classic current has dropped down to about 3A. I hit 5.8A at about 2Hrs. So a couple of questions here. I don't know if the recommended absorb time from a manufacturer is a minimum or a set time. Does staying in absorb too long adversely affect battery life? If so, should I adjust my absorb time to 2Hrs or perhaps add some buffer (say 2.5Hrs) to compensate for times when PV output drops below absorb current? If I set to 2Hrs and get sun shading I may undercharge. Can I trust the MyMidnight timeline for this assumption or should I check open circuit voltage of the batteries (because they are sealed) to confirm SOC? By the way, I can also see SOC through the Magnum remote monitoring system. I know it is not completely accurate but it does give me a good idea of what is coming in and going out.

Hopefully I am at least on the right track here. My batteries are new so I'd like to optimize the charging as soon as I can. Again, apologies if I am doubling up but I have not found a specific response about staying in absorb longer than recommended. Thanks!

5.5kW Offgrid Earthship -
24 x 230W Sharp ND230, 2 x Classic 150, 1 x Classic 200, Magnum MS4024PAE 4K inverter, MNE-240 E-Panel, 6500W remote start generator, 8 Full River AGM batteries (830AH).