Battery tilt

Started by DEinME, July 21, 2018, 12:32:22 PM

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Vic

Quote from: DEinME on August 07, 2018, 03:47:51 AM

   ...   I am frustrated right now. I ordered and paid for these batteries on June 22. That's over 6 weeks ago. Since early Thursday morning they've been about 100 miles away at an XPO Logistics terminal. They're sitting there waiting for PAF Transportation to pick them up to deliver them. According to the XPO tracking site, PAF once again didn't pick them up last night. I don't know if that's accurate or not.
   ...

It is not uncommon for Industrial type batteries to be built-to-order.   So,   eight weeks lead time,   or more is not uncommon.

If Lift gate service is needed,   many times,   this is sub-contracted out to a smaller local company.   Often,   these folks seem to delay handling the PITA type jobs (like deliveries to remote sites,  or,   jobs that are a bit more difficult,   etc).

Would suggest that you lean on the party that accepted your funds for these batteries and the delivery charges to GET YOUR BATTERIES DELIVERED.   The freight carriers that haul for your supplier,   look to them for continuing business (not to you,  the ultimate customer).   They need to satisfy the folks that you paid.

Personally,  would not assume that your new batteries have been damaged,  because of this delay,   although this might be the case.   Guess,  that the drayage company may well just be handling the easiest cargo   ...   assuming a lot.

I would guess that the similar Surrette batteries noted above,   needed a tilt that was greater than 22-ish degrees,  to reach the balance point..

Good Luck,   and give 'em hell !   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

DEinME

#16
Thanks for everyone's comments on this. After my last post, the local company called. They don't "pull" freight from the long-distance company, the long-distance company "pushes" freight to the local company.

So I called the long-distance company again. I explained again that I don't need a liftgate and he said they'd have it here next day (today). I called the local company to thank them for their help and say they wouldn't be delivering them. I.e. no need to follow up on why they're not being delivered.

The batteries are in place. The tractor and forks made moving them easier although there was still a lot of perspiration moving them the last 10 feet and down 4 feet.

While I read the dimensions many times and checked and rechecked them to bulid 5/7 of the battery box, I was still not prepared for the large presence of these batteries. The polyethylene case does make sliding them around pretty easy.

Modified message because I should be able to write English.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

Vic

Hi DEinME,

Good work!   Those batteries look proud.  Nice,   clean install.

Please let us know how these batteries are doing,   as some that we know who use the Trojan IND batteries  report that they seem to need a relatively high Absorb voltage to reach target SGs,   in off-grid service.

Please label each battery,   and cell  with a felt-tip pen  --  battery number,   and cell (1A, 1B,  1C,   etc).   Measure and record the SGs  now,   in a new battery Log Book.   Also measure battery terminal voltages   and record those.

Generally,   it is a good idea to check electrolyte level,   top up any cells that are very low with Distilled water,   and perform a Commissioning EQ  on a new battery bank,   using an EQ voltage in the lower range of recommended EQ voltage.

Believe that the target SG for fully-charged cells is 1.260 for these batteries.

Once again,  some have reported that these Trojan IND batteries need a higher than recommended Absorb voltages for Solar-Charged (off-grid) systems.

Thanks for the update.    Please let us know how these batteries are doing,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

mike90045

I hope there is a lid that goes on the box, to keep the acid fumes away from the electronics.

I assume a front panel will be bolted on to the front of the box after the spill cloth is gathered up.
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

DEinME

Started charging today. Alarming when both classics started charging at 1200W then one just put out less and less then just rested. To a Midnight noob, it looked like the 2 lower strings on the roof had declining amperage then nothing. I looked at voltage and whatnot and restarted that classic. No dice; no charge. I was starting to plan debugging the whole path from the roof but eventually I turned off solar to the other classic and the dead one sprang to life. I'm sure it's in the manual somewhere, but I'd been reviewing mostly startup procedures, collecting the data I wanted to program in right away, and making sure I tested the necessary functions.

Quote from: Vic on August 08, 2018, 08:13:41 PM. . .
Please let us know how these batteries are doing,   as some that we know who use the Trojan IND batteries  report that they seem to need a relatively high Absorb voltage to reach target SGs,   in off-grid service.

. . .  and perform a Commissioning EQ  on a new battery bank,   using an EQ voltage in the lower range of recommended EQ voltage.

Believe that the target SG for fully-charged cells is 1.260 for these batteries.

Once again,  some have reported that these Trojan IND batteries need a higher than recommended Absorb voltages for Solar-Charged (off-grid) systems.

While the target SG is low at 1.260, the recommended absorb voltage is also low at or 57.6V (data sheet) or 56.4V (Industrial Line User's Guide). The User's Guide recommends a "boost" charge once a month and before using new batteries. Boost voltage (61.92V) is lower than the recommended equalize voltage (64.8V).   I wonder if the monthly boost is to correct for declining SG from the low absorb voltages.

Today the classics went to float and I changed the setting for equalize voltage to the recommended boost voltage and started a manual equalize (now boost). After a minute it stopped. Started again and a minute later it stopped again. Read the manual which said it should continue all day. I tried several things before figuring out that I need to start manual equalize on both classics for it to continue longer than one minute.

In the end it's all working great. Still have to test charging with the generator through the MagnaSine. The sun went behind clouds during the boost charge and will apparently stay there for a week, so I can probably test charging from generator too.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

Vic

#20
Hi DEinME,

Couple of things ...

When using multiple Classics on a single battery bank,  using "Follow Me"  (FM),  will coordinate the transition to Float,   and cause all Classics in follow me to go to EQ at the same time.   Sounds like you are not using FM,   yet (?).   It only requires a few short phone cables.

EDIT:  Normally,  multiple charge sources will each contribute their maximum current available in Bulk,   and other MPPT  modes.   But,   in stages like Absorb,   Float,   and EQ,   it is difficult to set separate chargers to equally share the amount of power delivered.   In these cases,   like in Absorb,   one Classic could even Rest,  while the other carries all of the task of charging.   There are voltage Offset settings in the Tweaks menu,   that can help balance this variation in the output currents<.

And,  as was noted above,   you may well find it to be very useful,   if each battery/cell  is numbered/lettered  with a felt-tip pen,   and battery voltages,  SG readings,   EQs,   charge voltages,   water consumption amounts,   etc are recorded in your new Battery Log Book ...   if you have not yet done so.

This system may not be your first,   but  you will also want a high quality Hydrometerf (or,  perhaps a Refractometer).  Would suggest the glass tube/glass float type.   A Hydrovolt  is also good  --  having several Hydros can be useful,  if there is ever a question about validity of  SG readings.

Be certain to RINSE,   RINSE,     AND RINSE again,   the Hydro,  with distilled water,  after a measuring session.   DO  this without exception,  in order to keep the SG readings accurate.

You probably know much of this,   but  sure is a great time to start as much of this as possible,   as soon as possible,   with a new system ...

And so on.   Later,    Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

DEinME

#21
Quote from: Vic on August 11, 2018, 05:36:08 PM
When using multiple Classics on a single battery bank,  using "Follow Me"  (FM),  will coordinate the transition to Float,   and cause all Classics in follow me to go to EQ at the same time.   Sounds like you are not using FM,   yet (?).   It only requires a few short phone cables.
Follow Me was on before I tried the manual EQ. Even with Follow Me turned on, I had to start the EQ on both Classics or it would last only a minute.

Already have hydrometer and log.

Modify message. Follow me was on for classic 1, but not on for classic 2. The phone cable was installed by Midnight and follow me was turned on for classic 1 by Midnight. But not for classic 2. The manual is silent on if the follower needs to have follow me turned on or if only the leader says follow me.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

Vic

#22
OK,   one Classic needs to be set as the "Master",   and the other/s  as "Follow",   IIRC.   Believe that the BTS  can be on any of the Classics,   but needs to selected on the Classic with the BTS.

And on the phone cables,   unless you have a MidNite pre-wired system,   have never seen any FM phone cables installed on factory-fresh Classics.   The MNGP does have a very short phone cable twix it and the Classic control board. ...

So it is customary to have a short phone cable from the master,   to each of the Following Classics,   and  from the last follow Classic,   back to the Master.

Behind the vertical vents of each FM Classic,  are blue LEDs,  which flash every few seconds.   Look for a short-ish flash from each  Classic in the FM string.   Wire these FM phone cables,   as shown in the latest Classic manual.

Later,  Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

DEinME

Quote from: Vic on August 11, 2018, 06:59:29 PM
OK,   one Classic needs to be set as the "Master",   and the other/s  as "Follow",   IIRC.   Believe that the BTS  can be on any of the Classics,   but needs to selected on the Classic with the BTS.

And on the phone cables,   unless you have a MidNite pre-wired system,   have never seen any FM phone cables installed on factory-fresh Classics.   The MNGP does have a very short phone cable twix it and the Classic control board. ...
This is a pre-wired system.

Did you change subject from "follow me" to temperature sensor?

For "follow me" I can only find on and off.  The classic that came programmed with follow me "on" has always had quick flashes. The other one had no flashes until I turned follow me "on". Now it has slow flashes. I'll check the phone cable in the morning.

The options master and follow are the options for BTSNET and both classics were set by Midnight to "Master" but they don't both have temperature sensors.  The explanatory text also doesn't make sense "Master = temp-comp plugged in". Surely it should be "Master = temp sensor plugged in". I've changed one of the classics to follow.

I've let this wander pretty far from questions about lead-acid batteries. I'd better look in the Classic area for more info.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

Vic

I had thought that the Master needed to have the BTS,   but after looking at the Menu Map in the manual,  it looked like which Classic has the BTS was selectable.

Do not have a set of FM Classics right handy to look at them.   But,  it the Following Classis does not have its blue LED blinking,  then it is not following.

From the 2056 Manual,   "    ...   to enable Follow-ME. To do this, go to the Tweaks Menu. Press the ―Main Menu‖ button repeatedly until ―Charge‖ is highlighted. Scroll to the Right until ―Tweaks‖ is highlighted and press ―Enter‖. Now press the right soft key (Upper right button) 4 times until you see the screen with ―Follow-ME‖ and ―BTSNET‖ on it. Here you need to highlight Follow-ME and turn it on using the up arrow. You will also need to highlight BTSNET and turn it on if you want to share battery temperature data. After enabling these press Enter to save this data.
  ...   "

Please check the FM cables to make sure that they are still fully seated,   in the correct jacks,   and not pinched by the cover,   etc.

Recently set up FM on a Classic pair,   and it works,   but forgot about  the BTS  detail.

Some Subject drift is OK,   it IS  like a conversation,  but   the Classic Topic   has a lot of detail about these things.

Good Luck,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

ClassicCrazy

There is a lot of info on how to hook up and test the stuff on the knowledge base ( I only found out about this recently)
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/index.php

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

DEinME

Hey, thanks for that Knowledge Base link. Looks like good info there.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

DEinME

Quote from: Vic on August 11, 2018, 06:59:29 PM. . . So it is customary to have a short phone cable from the master,   to each of the Following Classics,   and  from the last follow Classic,   back to the Master.

Behind the vertical vents of each FM Classic,  are blue LEDs,  which flash every few seconds.   Look for a short-ish flash from each  Classic in the FM string.   Wire these FM phone cables,   as shown in the latest Classic manual.
This morning I started an EQ from the Classic that has a slow flash. The Classic with fast flash followed. Then I switched the positions of the 2 phone cables for following and that reversed which Classic has slow flash and which has fast flash. The Knowledge Base that ClassicCrazy so kindly pointed me to has a bit about leaving off the return path so that follow me becomes master/slave. But I think I want to fix the hardware so that following in a circle would work.

Now I just need to retrieve my crimpers and cable tester from the fellow who's working on an electric car conversion. I can return his hydraulic crimper for large diameter cables.

Before 9 AM with heavy cloud cover it's charging at over 250W. This is not like having a 400W array.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

ClassicCrazy

You might have to cycle those new batteries deep (  50% ?)  a couple times before they start acting properly like you would expect a deep cycle battery to.

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

Vic

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on August 11, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
There is a lot of info on how to hook up and test the stuff on the knowledge base ( I only found out about this recently)
http://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/index.php
Larry

Hi Larry,

Thanks for reminding me of the Knowledge Base   ...   this is a great addition to the Forum.

73,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!