waste not with wbjr and 2 classics

[bennyspoon]

G'day gang.

looking for some input from any here who have done something similar, or any who care to chime in.

I have a classic 150 for solar.
I am about to install a classic 250 with ac clipper for wind.
I have a wbjr to install in one of the aux 2 ports.
I want utilize waste not hi for water heating.

Ideally I would use aux 2 for pwm waste not hi.

My options as I see them are to install the wbjr into the classic 150 on aux 2 and have aux 1 as waste not.
With the classic 250 in follow me I could use aux 2 as pwm waste not and aux 1 as clipper control, if the turbine and clipper work well enough this way.

Or have the 250 aux 2 as pwm clipper control and aux 1 as waste not.

Could the 250 be the master with the wbjr in aux 2 and the aux 1 as clipper control with the 150 doing aux 2 pwm waste not, or would this not work if there was no wind and the 250 was resting?

Cheers,
Ben.

[Matrix]

Not exactly your setup,  but I did this and am heating water today using a classic and waste not hi

http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=3881.0

[Matrix]

Here are some links you may or may not find helpful as you begin to design/convert your water heater for solar us

http://waterheatertimer.org/convert-AC-water-heater-to-DC-using-low-voltage.html

http://waterheatertimer.org/Convert-AC-water-heater-to-DC-water-heater.html

and linked below is a paper on the subject.  You can email Pete for more info

[kitestrings]

Hi benny,

We have a similar set up.  We have two Classics both controlling a wind turbine.  Our solar is on an older OB MX60.  My preference has been to use one Aux 2 for water heating, on Waste-Not Hi and the second for, in our case a home-made clipper (3-ph resistive load bank).  We don't have the Wbjr.  So, I'd offer that a third option might be to forgo that device.

You can pre-heat/water heat with Aux 1, but it doesn't work quite as well particularly on the shoulder production periods where with the PWM of Aux2 you can have a smoother transition, and better harvest of "opportunity" output.  I've never used a MS Clipper, so I can't speak to how well it would work on Aux1, but to me the goal of keeping the turbine safe trumps the informational benefit of the Wbjr.  It is a nifty device, but I don't like that it ties up an Aux2 relay that could be doing something more important IMO.

Regarding heating with DC elements I'd offer a few suggestions:

Use good quality SS relays for the application.  I've had good luck with (US made) VB Controls and also with Teledyne.  I'm sure there are others, but stay away from the bargain units; they don't hold up.

On PWM applications they should be de-rated, so if you are breaking 20A, you may actually need a relay that is rated at 40-50A.

Heat is the enemy, so use adequate heat sinks and thermally conductive grease.

Protect them further with "flyback" diodes and/or MOVs as recommended by the manufacturer.

You probably know this, but don't try top break DC current with the stock AC thermostats of the water heater.

Kindly, ~ks

[bee88man]

No affiation or financial intrests, but...

For non-invasive PV diversion of a grid-tied system look to the MK2 PV Router.
If divesion is to water heater, no mods required to tank or factory components what so ever.
Wonderfully simple stand alone solution that beats all others.
Runs on Ardiuno code and can also log data to a file and export data in real time by  packets for remote graphing.

[kitestrings]

I’d assumed this to be an off-grid system.  Isn’t the Wzbjr a current shunt that allows a means of monitoring battery bank status, end-amps?

[ClassicCrazy]

I’d assumed this to be an off-grid system.  Isn’t the Wzbjr a current shunt that allows a means of monitoring battery bank status, end-amps?

Yes Whizbang attaches to current shunt and measures everything going in and out of the battery so it can give more accurate estimates of SOC and makes it able to subtract loads so ending amps will know exactly what is going into the battery.  Without Whizbang you can only know what the Classic or Kid is producing in amps and not what the loads are.

Larry

[bennyspoon]

Thanks for the feedback crew.

Matrix, some interesting links there thankyou.
I also  heat water with my surplus via the classic, but have never run a whiz bang or clipper before.

Kitestrings, my preferance as well is to have aux 2 do the pwm diversion. I agree that it's a much better solution for diversion. It just works so well. I also agree that turbine control is of great importance. I will give it a go with aux 1 as it is reputed to work reasonably well with some turbines,as well as aux 2.

It's a real bummer that aux 1 can't run the wbjr.

The wbjr giving a greater relevance to soc and making diversion work in a more accurate and elegant way is also important to me.

Larry and Bee88man, yes this is indeed and off grid system. Card carrying off gridder! Like public enemy said, "fight the power"........companies.

I imagine if I was a grid feeder,I'd have a slew of mppt inverters doing these jobs,not the fine and fancy,oh so aesthetically pleasing midnite products running the show.

I live in Australia and have been doing diversion for nearly 10 years with a fine little Australian  controller that does pwm control as well as shunt control.

The plasmatronic pl20,
http://www.plasmatronics.com.au/downloads/PLRef6.2.0.pdf

though there is also a 40,60 and more recently 80 amp verions.  It's only downfall was that the company never pursued the mppt tangent. Otherwise I would have gone down that path and wouldn't be posting on this forum.

They were the standard here in the 90's,and are an awesome bit of kit ,as the midnite gear is now, but they dropped the ball.

I have long cable runs, so the higher efficiencies and voltages with  mppt are very relevant for me.

I am trenching and conduit/cabling here like a fiend at the moment , as I am moving the powerhouse and adding a lot more right now,but will repost when I am up and running on this with some more info.

Cheers,
Ben.

[Vic]

Goodday,  Ben,

May I add  a cent or two?

IMO,  MidNite did NOT drop the ball,  by having  "just two Aux" ports on the Classic CC,   with the WBJr needing to use the only Aux port that accommodates analog I/O voltages.

Instead,   IMO,   MidNite chose to offer a very,   very inexpensive battery current monitoring device,   which  adds much functionality to the Classic.   And the Classic  has the widest range of built-in control capabilities with its Aux ports of any single CC that I know of.   AND,  all of this capability at a very,   very reasonable price!

Even having two Aux ports on a CC  is quite uncommon.   YES,  we ALL always want more,   but would bet that you would be using a different CC,  it any other had all of this functionality in a single CC.

Just MHO,   FWIW.   Vic,   also always wanting more!

[boB]

This is where the modbus communications and a Raspberi Pi or something like that could come in handy.
BTW, the Classic Aux outputs can be controlled via modbus.

Wish there was some generic modbus software for one of those little computers that could do some reading and writing from/to different types of controller and inverter system comm boxes to do ALL of this very useful interface things.

Think of the possibilities !

[ClassicCrazy]

This is where the modbus communications and a Raspberi Pi or something like that could come in handy.
BTW, the Classic Aux outputs can be controlled via modbus.

Wish there was some generic modbus software for one of those little computers that could do some reading and writing from/to different types of controller and inverter system comm boxes to do ALL of this very useful interface things.

Think of the possibilities !

The Raspberry Pi using Node Red could do that .

Larry

[bennyspoon]

Hi there Vic,
I think you may have misinterpreted what I wrote there old mate. I was referring to plasmatronics dropping the ball.

[Vic]

Hi Ben,

OH,   sorry,    misidentified that "they".    sorry.    Thanks for the correction.

Vic

[kitestrings]

I'd understood you to mean that Ben.

For the record I love our Classics, and having two integrated, flexible, user-configurable Aux ports is icing on the cake, especially in the context of everything else these things will do, and do well.  And, they have real tech support... So, Kudos to MS.

I think your suggestion to try the Clipper on Aux1 makes sense.  If it works to suit you, it would seem that you'd have the best of both worlds.  Best ~ks