Author Topic: Well after kicking the ‘what battery’ ball around for a year I ordered...  (Read 3513 times)

ClassicCrazy

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The Whizbang does not get reset.
The SOC calculations are only dependent on the capacity you put in and the efficiency ( the battery temperature as I said will make the battery capacity less if the batteries are colder )  The SOC  are just estimates but can be fairly accurate once you tweak everything like capacity and efficiency.
Yes Vic often says that flooded lead acid efficiency is lower than 90% - look for some of his past posts or don't know if he commented before on this post about it - I didn't go back and read all the past posts.
I wonder if you are taking into account some of the SOC  things - like it will show  100% when the  batteries go from Absorb to  Float. There are a couple other settings for SOC I believe but I don't remember what they are now - has to do with AH resetting.

Larry 
system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

ClassicCrazy

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take a look on the Knowledge base for help to questions too .
One thing they say is that if your SOC is always going down is you might have the Whizbang installed backwards ?
http://www.midnitehelp.com/
system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

alyaz

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Copy thanks.
3.3 kW solar. (1.5 kW Helios - MN Classic 150 CC; .8 kW CSun - MN Classic 150 CC; 1 kW Sharp - MN  Classic 250 CC); Magnum PAE-4024 Inverter, AGS, ARC, BMK. Whizbang Jr., Midnite Solar battery monitor, 5 Midnite SPD’s. 24V Rolls 4KS21P - 1105 a/hr FLA.  10 kW Perkins Diesel.

Vic

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Hi Al,  and Larry,

As Larry noted,  the SOC that is calculated from the WbJr data  is approximate.   Obviously,   the Gold Standard for SOC of Flooded batteries is from measurements taken from an accurate Hydrometer (or Refractometer).   The longer period between full charges,  the less-accurate is this SOC calculation.   Assume that your Classic Resets SOC to 100% upon its transition from Absorb,  to Float.

There are many factors that reduce the accuracy of Wb calculated SOC,  like rate of discharge (and probably even rate of charge),   battery efficiency variations,   etc.
Agree with Larry about battery efficiency for FLA batteries.  Would start at 80% for a new,  but broken-in FLA,   and be ready to reduce this setting,   as needed.  MN Engineering recommends 94-ish percent for FLAs,   but this setting seems more appropriate for Sealed batteries (AGM,   Gel),   than  FLAs,   IMO.

Hydros need to be RINSED,   RINSED,   AND RINSED YET AGAIN  with Distilled Water after each measuring session (would not let the Hydro sit,  unrinsed for more than a couple of hours).   Rinsing  preserves the Hydro accuracy.

IMO,   Flooded batteries should be fully-charged at least twice per week,   perhaps once per week may be OK.   The deeper the Depth Of Discharge,   the more frequent should be the full-charge  --  do not let a deeply discharged FLA  sit,   without beginning a full charge.

Fully charging FLAs from a genset is usually not desirable,  BUT for off-gridders in Northern climes,  there little choice.  It must be done when the battery bank needs it.

One or two Pilot Cells should be chosen early in the lives of FLA batteries.   Usually,  these cells would be chosen from the cells that have the lowest SG,  when the bank is fully charged.   This will allow a quick way to measure the SOC of a FLA bank.

Al,  what are the SGs of each cell in your bank,  when fully charged?
How are you generally fully-charging this battery bank  --  Solar, or Genset?

Agree that 6 - 7 hours of Absorb is very long.   But in Winter,  perhaps this is OK,   as  you are unlikely to have this long a Solar day for the Classic to charge.   Perhaps this is in reference to the Absorb time setting in the Inverter/Charger ...

A bit of a minor nit,  is that the advertised Ah Capacity of 1104 should really be reduced to 1050-ish Ah,   as Surrette  specs Capacity for 1.280 SG electrolyte,  instead of the most-common fill electrolyte of 1.265.   Will make  little difference,   as actual C  varies a bit from cell-to-cell.

FWIW,   the Surrette 4KS25 banks here have the Efficiency set to 77%  IIRC.   It really should be set a bit lower,  at that  ...   they are in their 14th year of service (and we do Skip one day on one bank,   and three days on the other).

More later,  FWIW.   Good Luck,   Vic
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 01:53:39 PM by Vic »
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

alyaz

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Thanks Vic.

Some of the SG’s are as high as 1.280, which Steve has suggested I should be either reducing the absorb time or absorb voltage by .2v at a time.  I have reduced my charging voltage down to 29.4v now, and had started up at 30v (as per Steve’s suggestion).

Today they were at 1.275, so maybe the 29.4v is better.  My weakest cell is usually around 1.265, which it was at today after a full absorb cycle.  I have my controllers set to end amps at 12a now. 

This time of year I have been running the gen a bit in the morning to take it into absorb and a bit at night, while watching an hour or so of TV. 

Ya, that 6-7 hrs is what Steve calculated (in solar absorb) but watching the SG with the two Hydro-Volts I have, it seems that would be overkill.  Maybe if I had the batteries down to 24.2v they make take that long?

I have been keeping the batteries above about 24.8v, so in the morning an hour or so of gen time takes it from bulk and into absorb and a bit of sun during the day (2 hours in absorb today) got the batteries to the 12a end amps and into float.  That’s when I checked the SG with the Hydro-Volt and all seemed to be good.

I will reduce the a/hr for the bank to 1050 and leave the efficiency at 80% for now. 

Thanks again.

3.3 kW solar. (1.5 kW Helios - MN Classic 150 CC; .8 kW CSun - MN Classic 150 CC; 1 kW Sharp - MN  Classic 250 CC); Magnum PAE-4024 Inverter, AGS, ARC, BMK. Whizbang Jr., Midnite Solar battery monitor, 5 Midnite SPD’s. 24V Rolls 4KS21P - 1105 a/hr FLA.  10 kW Perkins Diesel.

Vic

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Hi Al,   thanks for the added info  ...   little time now,

But,   on a day that you believe that the batteries are fully-charged,
What is the Net Ah reading (this would Ah Removed) early on the following morning?  This is good info,   and could be confirmed by SG readings.   If the over night discharge is considered your typical,   this would give you a good idea of your approximate average DOD.

You could try to confirm the accuracy of the other WB status readings.

FWIW,   Vic
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

alyaz

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Thanks Vic.

I will start watching that.

:)
3.3 kW solar. (1.5 kW Helios - MN Classic 150 CC; .8 kW CSun - MN Classic 150 CC; 1 kW Sharp - MN  Classic 250 CC); Magnum PAE-4024 Inverter, AGS, ARC, BMK. Whizbang Jr., Midnite Solar battery monitor, 5 Midnite SPD’s. 24V Rolls 4KS21P - 1105 a/hr FLA.  10 kW Perkins Diesel.

tecnodave

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I have wondered for a while now just how long good batteries last if taken care of. Surette had just confirmed that my Surette S-530's were built in 2005. Date code 5265, decoded as 5 day of week, 26 week of year, 5 last digit of year...14 years old and still strong as ever. They preform better than my 6 year old Interstates.   ONE MEAN BATTERY!

David


Edit......These are L-16 batteries,   The Interstates are traction batteries also L-16
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:47:46 PM by tecnodave »
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

alyaz

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Wow!  Nice work you are definitely doing something right.   :)
3.3 kW solar. (1.5 kW Helios - MN Classic 150 CC; .8 kW CSun - MN Classic 150 CC; 1 kW Sharp - MN  Classic 250 CC); Magnum PAE-4024 Inverter, AGS, ARC, BMK. Whizbang Jr., Midnite Solar battery monitor, 5 Midnite SPD’s. 24V Rolls 4KS21P - 1105 a/hr FLA.  10 kW Perkins Diesel.

Westbranch

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If you have enough PV to fully charge the bank well before sundown, you could do a 110V opportunity load (DHW) or like with the excess..... ???
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

tecnodave

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I got a follow up call from Steve Higging @ Rolls and he told me that the date code stamped into the top edge of the cover is the "born on date"  , on the bottom of the label is the shipping date coded as a 9 digit number , " the shipping date". Labels are applied as the batteries ship. Mine were shipped June 26 2005 , decoded from the label 2262005.  So that is a clue as to how fresh they are. I have heard that Rolls builds what you need, especially in the larger format batteries.  So my L-16 S-530 bank is 13 going on 14 years old.....they were trashed by the former owner and sold to me as scrap for $5.00 each........I've got 6 years out of them allready and they still test good.  Steve did suggest that in lower my s.g.'s a bit to 1.260 or 1.255  as batteries don't need so high an s.g. when well broken in this well.  He also advised me not to charge them in parallel with my interstate L-16 set. That I have been doing since I've had them. I basically have two systems side by side that can be paralled when using large loads.   No fail is very important to me....100% redundancy.....never had a low voltage cutout.

I do take s.g. Readings and log them monthly.

One key piece of information that Steve told me is to use a FLIR gun to look for hot spots, mostly at the bottom and top of the plates from the side of the cases. Hot spots point to a problem.

I do that with my AGM cdtecnobatteries that I get free from cell site maintaince crews. The bad cell will be 20-40 degrees hotter than the good cells.

Do this towards the end of a absorb or e.q. Charge

Some of the cdtecnobatteries show hot spots show hot spots within 20 minutes of charging, mind you that these batteries are not maintained well. Federal law requires automatic change out of cell tower batteries. I agree to recycle them, signed, to relieve the service crews of doing that. It gives me access to the recycled laptop and power tool batteries which I weed out and have several hundreds of good Sony and Sanyo 18650 cells. Very useful for projects.

David

An aquintence of mine is the longest running recycler in Santa Cruz county so I have access to city and county recycle programs. Their interest is recycling and I agree to return them to recycle or recycle them into another use. ...free batteries with only an agreement to not dump them.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 03:36:58 PM by tecnodave »
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

ClassicCrazy

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That is a great battery source ! Good deal.

Larry
system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

Vic

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I got a follow up call from Steve Higging @ Rolls    ...    Rolls builds what you need, especially in the larger format batteries.  So my L-16 S-530 bank is 13 going on 14 years old   ..

.....Steve did suggest that in lower my s.g.'s a bit to 1.260 or 1.255  as batteries don't need so high an s.g. when well broken in this well   ...  David

Steve Higgins @ Surrette   does know his stuff.   He has a great background,   having been in Tech Support at Outback Power.   He seems to be very responsive,   and knowledgeable.

Am sure that Surrette generally builds batteries to-order.  Perhaps on their highest-volume batteries,   they might build some for stock (and perhaps does not finish them).

One good reason to reduce the target SG for FLA batteries (particularly Lead Antimony FLAs),    is due to electrolyte loss  --  electrolyte spatter and leakage from caps,   and acid vapor that exits the batteries on every cycle.  We do replace the water loss of Gassing,   but not the acid.

This acid loss results in the electrolyte acid content being diluted when we add distilled water.   Lower SG electrolyte requires lower charge voltages (and of course,  the need to lower our SG target for full-charge).

The S-530  12 V bank here is also in its 13th year.  Shipped directly from Surrette to us,  in 2005.   These batteries  still doing great!

All-in-all  we have been very satisfied with the three Surrette battery banks in use here,   and with Surrette's  great support.

Just opinions,   FWIW,   Vic
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

alyaz

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Man, that’s sure a good lifespan for those types of batteries.  But I gotta give you kudos as it is obvious you know what and how to care for them properly!   8) 
3.3 kW solar. (1.5 kW Helios - MN Classic 150 CC; .8 kW CSun - MN Classic 150 CC; 1 kW Sharp - MN  Classic 250 CC); Magnum PAE-4024 Inverter, AGS, ARC, BMK. Whizbang Jr., Midnite Solar battery monitor, 5 Midnite SPD’s. 24V Rolls 4KS21P - 1105 a/hr FLA.  10 kW Perkins Diesel.

tecnodave

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Vic,

I just emailed NAWS for a quote on Rolls-Surette S-550's and they quote shipping in two days from Arizona or I can pick up in San Jose, CA with a 5-6 week lead time, so you are correct, some high volume dealers do have stock on shelves, but most suppliers have quoted that 5-6 week lead time.

Interesting  to note I also emailed Interstate Battery in Salinas,CA for a quote on interstate L-16 and their local pickup price was less than $200 less than Rolls-Surette price delivered here.

No deal on that, the Rolls batteries are far better than Interstate (Johnson Controls) batteries. I might consider Interstate if they were half the price, but at $1300 vs $1560 no deal, I have both batteries in my set and they are not equivalent.

I have 14 year old S-530 and 6 year old Interstates and the Rolls have maybe 20% more capacity,
Both formats are L-16's

Please note I do not run these batteries in parallel sets, I have two systems almost identical and run them separately unless I am in a high energy situation where I am welding/fabricating all day and the loads would be too large for single system, at that point I parallel both systems, but when big loads are done systems are separated so the batteries can recharge properly. Works well for me and I have 100% redundancy, if anything fails I can throw a few breakers and switches and have full power.

My generator is getting lonely, haven't used it in almost a year!

David
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P