Classic 2 slow flash behind grill

Started by DEinME, January 12, 2019, 01:58:00 PM

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DEinME

Quote from: boB on January 16, 2019, 05:22:35 PM
DEinME,   

What instructions are you looking at ?

There used to be a text file that told what to do but it was probably incomplete as you are mentioning I think.

There is no USB jack on the MNGP because it was never implemented. The USB on the Classic passes through to the MNGP through that top phone jack and talks by way of RS-232 link.

There used to be some USB circuitry on some MNGP circuit boards but it was never used and has been removed from more recent MNGPs.
I downloaded a file called "Firmware install with Windows 7 REVB 1-17.pdf" from this site or the main Midnite site.

It seems to assume that people will remove the cover and leave it plugged in.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

DEinME

Quote from: mike90045 on January 17, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: DEinME on January 16, 2019, 12:19:12 PM
The instructions say to take off the cover to get access to the USB plug. So I remove the cover, unplug the MNGP, and set the cover aside. Or should I leave the cover dangling by the phone cable? 

No, remove the cover, reserve 1 screw and place screw thru upper left cover hole, into chassis upper right threads. you can leave it hanging there, with 1 screw, and all cables connected and do the updates.

This has the cover offset to the right side of the chassis
There's no room.

Off to the right of the classic is another classic. To the left is an inverter. I can understand leaving some space between components, but this is how Midnite assembled them.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

DEinME

#32
Quote from: boB on January 17, 2019, 01:27:17 PM
Quote from: mike90045 on January 17, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: DEinME on January 16, 2019, 12:19:12 PM
The instructions say to take off the cover to get access to the USB plug. So I remove the cover, unplug the MNGP, and set the cover aside. Or should I leave the cover dangling by the phone cable? 

No, remove the cover, reserve 1 screw and place screw thru upper left cover hole, into chassis upper right threads. you can leave it hanging there, with 1 screw, and all cables connected and do the updates.

This has the cover offset to the right side of the chassis

Yes.  Exactly.

OR if there is no room on the right, some other corner or maybe even upside down might work ?
Upside down? The screw holes are not near the bottom corner. Hanging the cover upside down would overlap the circuit board by about 2/3 it's height. This might work if I used a long machine screw.

Why would I do that when there's no mention that the cover stays plugged in?

My point is not that it can't be done now that I've failed; it's that there's no instruction on how to do it correctly the first time.

Edited because I originally put my response inside the quoted messages. Your suggestion of "upside down" looks like grabbing at straws to find any way to say this is obvious. I still think the cord hanging from the ceiling will be much easier in the future than any version of putting screws back in mis-matched corners.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

DEinME

Quote from: FNG on January 24, 2019, 03:12:45 PM
I will look over some of the documentation, I know this comes up more than it probably should. Just saying "Update the MNGP" is confusing in itself, for most customers they wont know what the "MNGP" even is. I try to call it the display. Please do post a link to what you where following so I make sure to take a hard look
thank you.

IDK where I downloaded the instructions but the file name is "Firmware install with Windows 7 REVB 1-17.pdf".

Incomplete documentation is one subject. Scattered collections of subsets of the documentation is another.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

DEinME

I won't be back on this forum for another week.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

mike90045

I'm going to place a vote (again) for a installer that will run from a bootable, live linux CD or thumbdrive

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html
https://linuxmint.com/download.php
and there are a dozen other versions that boot live and does not require the windoze 10 malware (yes win10 is hated that much)
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

boB

Quote from: mike90045 on January 26, 2019, 10:10:35 AM
I'm going to place a vote (again) for a installer that will run from a bootable, live linux CD or thumbdrive

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html
https://linuxmint.com/download.php
and there are a dozen other versions that boot live and does not require the windoze 10 malware (yes win10 is hated that much)

Future products will be more like this.  Not bootable though because there is no disc operating system on any of these products.

The Kid is kind of like this in that it appears as a flash drive over a USB connection.

But neither of these will help an MNGP type remote that has to be connected to its host charge controller.

We are working on lots of documentation now.  I hope that there are LOTS of pictures !  That would be much better than this whole thread in showing how to hang the Classic front cover with MNGP on the side of the Classic to update it.

boB
K7IQ 🌛  He/She/Me

Vic

Regarding placing the MNGP in a convenient place,  will try adding;

Seems that a person could use a longer cable between the Classic being updated and the MNGP during updates.

OR,  place the MNGP in a convenient place (that is close enough to the Classic)  permanently,   by using a longer cable.

One system here has two Classics mounted about 1.5 inches apart,  in  an otherwise tight location.   We have added wire hooks from above,   that use one of the upper front cover mounting screw holes to suspend the cover/MNGP  --  close enough,  but out of the way when probing DC terminals,   doing Reset to Defaults,   etc.   The USB cable is permanently attached to each Classic,   and is stowed in a cast AL box,   so  there is no need to remove the cover to install the USB cable.

Updates on the KID  are very easy.   The last update on Classics with the new Loader  were all very easy,   as well.

FWIW,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

Resthome

Quote from: Vic on January 27, 2019, 02:11:37 PM
Regarding placing the MNGP in a convenient place,  will try adding;

Seems that a person could use a longer cable between the Classic being updated and the MNGP during updates.


Have the longer cable for the MNGP if I need to remove the cover.  Also leave the USB cable attached and accessed through one of the provided ports.
John

10 x Kyocera KC140, Classic 150 w/WBJr, Link10 Battery Monitor, 850 AH @ 12v Solar One 2v cells, Xantrex PROwatt SW2000
Off Grid on Houseboat Lake Don Pedro, CA

FNG

Quote from: DEinME on January 26, 2019, 08:59:24 AM
Quote from: boB on January 17, 2019, 01:27:17 PM
Quote from: mike90045 on January 17, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: DEinME on January 16, 2019, 12:19:12 PM
The instructions say to take off the cover to get access to the USB plug. So I remove the cover, unplug the MNGP, and set the cover aside. Or should I leave the cover dangling by the phone cable? 

No, remove the cover, reserve 1 screw and place screw thru upper left cover hole, into chassis upper right threads. you can leave it hanging there, with 1 screw, and all cables connected and do the updates.

This has the cover offset to the right side of the chassis

Yes.  Exactly.

OR if there is no room on the right, some other corner or maybe even upside down might work ?
Upside down? The screw holes are not near the bottom corner. Hanging the cover upside down would overlap the circuit board by about 2/3 it's height. This might work if I used a long machine screw.

Why would I do that when there's no mention that the cover stays plugged in?

My point is not that it can't be done now that I've failed; it's that there's no instruction on how to do it correctly the first time.

Edited because I originally put my response inside the quoted messages. Your suggestion of "upside down" looks like grabbing at straws to find any way to say this is obvious. I still think the cord hanging from the ceiling will be much easier in the future than any version of putting screws back in mis-matched corners.

I am amending the instructions today, here is what I added sp far" Please note the Display or MNGP "Front Cover" must stay plugged in. This can be accomplished by putting the cover back on with the top two screws only and gently snugging them down essentially pinching the USB cable between the two halfs of the casting."

ClassicCrazy

Quote from: Resthome on January 27, 2019, 11:10:47 PM
Quote from: Vic on January 27, 2019, 02:11:37 PM
Regarding placing the MNGP in a convenient place,  will try adding;

Seems that a person could use a longer cable between the Classic being updated and the MNGP during updates.


Have the longer cable for the MNGP if I need to remove the cover.  Also leave the USB cable attached and accessed through one of the provided ports.

Yeah I am with you on this John - just leave the usb plugged in and exiting Classic with MNGP on - makes updates easy no taking anything apart.
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

DEinME

Quote from: boB on January 27, 2019, 01:30:29 PM
Quote from: mike90045 on January 26, 2019, 10:10:35 AM
I'm going to place a vote (again) for a installer that will run from a bootable, live linux CD or thumbdrive

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html
https://linuxmint.com/download.php
and there are a dozen other versions that boot live and does not require the windoze 10 malware (yes win10 is hated that much)

Future products will be more like this.  Not bootable though because there is no disc operating system on any of these products.

The Kid is kind of like this in that it appears as a flash drive over a USB connection.

But neither of these will help an MNGP type remote that has to be connected to its host charge controller.

We are working on lots of documentation now.  I hope that there are LOTS of pictures !  That would be much better than this whole thread in showing how to hang the Classic front cover with MNGP on the side of the Classic to update it.

boB
Thanks for mentioning that you're working on documentation.

IDK if this is a good time to mention the PWM diagram on p. 43 of Rev. H.

It took me a long time to figure out what's going on here. The pulses look like they vary in frequency while maintaining a 50% duty cycle. I don't care about the frequency but the PWMs I've worked with all change the duty cycle. The change in duty cycle usually makes the output "look" like a change in voltage which almost matches the curve called "voltage" above, except the voltage curve looks like it turns off when it gets high. It took a while for me to understand that the voltage was battery voltage and that there is no diagram of "effective voltage" caused by applying PWM to a voltage source. I understand that the Classic PWM may be an unpowered switch or a PWM'd 14V output voltage depending on the jumper position. So I was looking to the top voltage graph to describe the PWM output, not the battery voltage input. I think labels would have helped me understand the diagram earlier. Perhaps a third trace for "effective voltage" or "effective smoothed voltage" would have helped. I can see that my understanding may be wrong.

Again, thanks.
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

DEinME

Quote from: FNG on January 28, 2019, 08:24:58 AM
Quote from: DEinME on January 26, 2019, 08:59:24 AM
Quote from: boB on January 17, 2019, 01:27:17 PM
Quote from: mike90045 on January 17, 2019, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: DEinME on January 16, 2019, 12:19:12 PM
The instructions say to take off the cover to get access to the USB plug. So I remove the cover, unplug the MNGP, and set the cover aside. Or should I leave the cover dangling by the phone cable? 

No, remove the cover, reserve 1 screw and place screw thru upper left cover hole, into chassis upper right threads. you can leave it hanging there, with 1 screw, and all cables connected and do the updates.

This has the cover offset to the right side of the chassis

Yes.  Exactly.

OR if there is no room on the right, some other corner or maybe even upside down might work ?
Upside down? The screw holes are not near the bottom corner. Hanging the cover upside down would overlap the circuit board by about 2/3 it's height. This might work if I used a long machine screw.

Why would I do that when there's no mention that the cover stays plugged in?

My point is not that it can't be done now that I've failed; it's that there's no instruction on how to do it correctly the first time.

Edited because I originally put my response inside the quoted messages. Your suggestion of "upside down" looks like grabbing at straws to find any way to say this is obvious. I still think the cord hanging from the ceiling will be much easier in the future than any version of putting screws back in mis-matched corners.

I am amending the instructions today, here is what I added sp far" Please note the Display or MNGP "Front Cover" must stay plugged in. This can be accomplished by putting the cover back on with the top two screws only and gently snugging them down essentially pinching the USB cable between the two halfs of the casting."

Thanks. Mentioning this should help a lot.

Is it possible to mention that one solution is to leave a USB cable hanging out?
4800W PV in 2 circuits of 96V & 50A each after the Midnight combiner. Two Midnight Classic 200. MagnaSine 4448 split phase inverter on a Midnight e-panel. 700Ah or 900Ah FLA @ 48V. Birdhouse,WBjr, etc. Replaces 16-year-old off-grid full-time 408W PV & 300W Morningstar inverter.

boB

Quote from: DEinME on February 02, 2019, 06:36:33 AM

IDK if this is a good time to mention the PWM diagram on p. 43 of Rev. H.

It took me a long time to figure out what's going on here. The pulses look like they vary in frequency while maintaining a 50% duty cycle. I don't care about the frequency but the PWMs I've worked with all change the duty cycle.

I just looked at page 44 about the aux output and you are correct that it looks like a 50% duty cycle changing frequency !

And you are correct that this ~should~ show constant frequency with variable duty cycle.  Maybe next revision this can be changed in the manual ?  It is a bit misleading.

It really is constant frequency and varying duty cycle though for a given "width".  I remember that changing the width will adjust the frequency but it will still be a constant frequency and variable duty cycle.

The way the internal software works is that it uses the 0.1V resolution to choose the duty cycle over a 1V range (for 1V width).  This gives around 10 different duty cycles for that 1V range.

Should have left out the WIDTH adjustment completely.  It just causes confusion and doesn't really help for anything over 1V width.

boB
K7IQ 🌛  He/She/Me

mike90045

Quote from: DEinME on February 02, 2019, 06:36:33 AM
It took me a long time to figure out what's going on here. The pulses look like they vary in frequency while maintaining a 50% duty cycle. I don't care about the frequency but the PWMs I've worked with all change the duty cycle.

Simply changing the Fq will only create internal heating /switching losses, which will subtract from the delivered power
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV