Author Topic: kidd wiring questions  (Read 425 times)

BlackwaterPark

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kidd wiring questions
« on: February 09, 2019, 08:51:00 PM »
Hi there,  so a friend of mine had me wire up his small off grid system after seeing mine (which I also designed and installed and which has been working great for about 5 years now). The only things different from mine and his is the Kid (whereas mines a classic 150),  the PV panels (which I'll address further down), and the fact that on his system, I used some midnite insulated bus bars, whereas  mine are isolated on the positive side right to the bank, all the negs going into the shunt.  So after making all the final connections, the only thing that seems to work right is the inverter. The Kid is on and displaying bank voltage as well as amp draw and Soc (which seems accurate), but not anything coming in via the panels or the charger.  It started in "resting" and has yet to leave that state, when conditions clearly indicate it should be charging.   This might be due to my wiring job, or the way his panels were set up already.   So here's the rundown on the what's and how's:

24v, 225ah trojan T105RE bank
Samlex pst 600 inverter
Iota dls 25/27 charger
The Kidd charge controller

All wire 6awg stranded, except the kidd, where it's 10awg.

Here's the layout, as best as I can describe it:

From the negative terminal>one 6awg lead to shunt>negative bus bar, to which the negs of all the above units are tied into
From positive terminal>one 6awg lead to positive bus bar>breakers for all above units (40a for the inverter,  15a for the kidd, 40 a for the iota, and a 15a for his dc lights circuit)

The wires, bus bars, breakers, and shunt are all contained in a midnite breaker box (the bigger one), without a main panel breaker installed.   

So, first question: is this design ok? I've never used bus bars before, so is my understanding of how they work into this design sound?

The second is concerning his panels.   It's sort of a hodgepodge of 4 mismatched panels ranging from 40w to 120w, where he has all the pos tied (literally) together, and the same on the negatives. Prior to me installing this new equipment,  he was charging a couple T105s in 12v through some low rent nameless  CC and a primitive volt meter, and got a year or so as such, so the panels as they are were at least yielding something.   Obviously, far from ideal.  Would this configuration trip up the Kidd?  I bugged into the PV in terminals of the kidd with a voltmeter and read ~21.5v in full sun fairly consistently.

And clue as to what's going on? Maybe I didn't set the CC up correctly? I followed the instructions, and am very familiar with the classic, so I thought I had a good handle on it.  I'd be much obliged for someone to educate me here.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 08:55:31 PM by BlackwaterPark »

Resthome

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2019, 11:27:51 PM »
I am no Kid expert, but if you are trying to run a 24v battery configuration and you only 21.5v coming in from the PV panels it will never charge. Sounds like he has the the 4 panels in one string (all parallel). Some of those panels need to be in series. But have no idea what kind of mismatched panels he has so can’t be any more help.
John

10 x Kyocera KC140, Classic 150 w/WBJr, Link10 Battery Monitor, 850 AH @ 12v Solar One 2v cells, Xantrex PROwatt SW2000
Off Grid on Houseboat Lake Don Pedro, CA

ClassicCrazy

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2019, 12:32:44 AM »
Also I believe that on the Kid the PV negative and Battery negative have to be separate to the Kid and not bonded together.
Not sure if that is how you have it wired.

Larry
system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

tecnodave

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2019, 03:58:57 AM »
BlackwaterPark,

I have 2 kid controllers and you do need at least 40-60 volts for the kid to properly charge a 24 volt bank. Also the kid does require that panel negative and power negative to be not connected togather. The Kid measures current in the negative wire, unlike the Classic which measures current in the positive wire, so on the Classic P.V. negative and battery negative can be commoner to a buss bar. The Kid cannot be connected in common as the Kid will not see the current from the solar input.
You will need two closely matched 60 cell or better 72 cell panels in series on each string.  Also you risk the system by connecting all the panels togather with no fusing. If one panel shorts the other 3 will cause enough current to flow backwards through the faulty one possibly setting it ablaze. You really need a breaker on each string to prevent this from happening. If you are using 36 cell "12 volt " panels you will need 4 of them in series to achieve a high enough voltage to allow the MPPT front end of the controller to properly do its job.

A MidNite MNPV3 of MNPV6 combiner with MNPV breakers rated at least 1.56 times the maximum current that the panel produces will protect this installation. Most panels have the fusing size on the data label on the back.

1.56 times because breakers are normally not continuous duty but are 80% duty cycle and the NEC requires a minimum of 1.25 times maximum current that the wire will carry.....1.25 times 1.25 is 1.56   Some breakers such as the MidNite MNDC breakers are rated 100% duty cycle ,therefore the correction factor is 1.25 % of maximum current. MNPV breakers are not 100 percent duty cycle so correction factor is 1.56 %

Even if your installation is not code approved it is a good idea to follow NEC guidance. The code is there for a very good reason....SAFETY! 

David
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

BlackwaterPark

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2019, 06:20:02 AM »
Thanks for the replies and info.  I can definitely see where the panels could be the issue, and though that might be the case from the start.  Regarding the negative bonding  issue with the Kidd, I had spoken with a midnite rep on the phone to make sure, prior to hooking everything up, and he told me that was the case, but only on the PV input side, not the output. Is this the case, or am I misunderstanding? I'm a bit confused on this... the PC negative coming in is just connected to the proper input terminal on the kid... it's not connected with anything else.  I assume the Pv output is a different story, otherwise how could it share the shunt with everything else?

Also,  PV input issues aside,  why is the Kidd nor registering any current from the Iota? This leads me to believe my use of the buses is incorrect?  Should I just run the positive direct through its breaker, bypassing the positive bus altogether? That's how mine is set up, and works great.   

Also, I do have the midnite combine box for the panels, with 15a breakers for each eventual string,  so that is planned...I just didn't know how to approach it with his particular set up.

Also, just to make sure,  both ends of the shunt are exactly the same until you make one the battery side, right?  I'm guessing that's the case, seeing as the wzbjr is correctly assessing bank voltage and capacity.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 08:05:32 AM by BlackwaterPark »

mike90045

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2019, 10:02:50 AM »

.......1.56 times because breakers are normally not continuous duty but are 80% duty cycle and the NEC requires a minimum of 1.25 times maximum current that the wire will carry.....1.25 times 1.25 is 1.56   Some breakers such as the MidNite
MNDC breakers are rated 100% duty cycle ,therefore the correction factor is 1.25 % of maximum current.
MNPV breakers are not 100 percent duty cycle so correction factor is 1.56 %....

I just quoted that so the differenced in the breaker models was a bit more clear
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

ClassicCrazy

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2019, 11:28:19 AM »
Thanks for the replies and info.  I can definitely see where the panels could be the issue, and though that might be the case from the start.  Regarding the negative bonding  issue with the Kidd, I had spoken with a midnite rep on the phone to make sure, prior to hooking everything up, and he told me that was the case, but only on the PV input side, not the output. Is this the case, or am I misunderstanding? I'm a bit confused on this... the PC negative coming in is just connected to the proper input terminal on the kid... it's not connected with anything else.  I assume the Pv output is a different story, otherwise how could it share the shunt with everything else?

Also,  PV input issues aside,  why is the Kidd nor registering any current from the Iota? This leads me to believe my use of the buses is incorrect?  Should I just run the positive direct through its breaker, bypassing the positive bus altogether? That's how mine is set up, and works great.   

Also, I do have the midnite combine box for the panels, with 15a breakers for each eventual string,  so that is planned...I just didn't know how to approach it with his particular set up.

Also, just to make sure,  both ends of the shunt are exactly the same until you make one the battery side, right?  I'm guessing that's the case, seeing as the wzbjr is correctly assessing bank voltage and capacity.

Yes to your point about the grounds - if you have the PV negative going directly to the PV neg input on the Kid - and then have  the Battery negative going to buss bar with all other negatives  - that is okay as long as the PV negative doesn't go to it also. 

Yes to your point about the shunt . One side ( does not matter which side )  of the shunt has only one connection to the battery negative.  All other system negatives are on the other side of the shunt.  The Whizbang gets mounted on the shunt in correct orientation as specified in instructions.

Larry
system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

tecnodave

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2019, 01:20:40 PM »
The one thing about this setup that I am not understanding is the iota charging. If that iota charger's output current does flow through the shunt to the battery then the kid should see it's output.

Possible problem there would be that the iota output current is consumed by the inverter and other loads. Try turning everything off except the kid and the iota. The kid does not have to have P.V. power input for it to read the contribution of the iota.

If your situation is                         kid = no output but powered on
                                       Iota charger= 23 amps
                                    Inverter input = 40 amps
                                         Other loads=15 amps

               Then net system amps will be = -23 amps

The kid with whizbang should show -23 amps

One other possibility is the kid is reading its internal shunt, not the whizbang. At that point the kid will only display its amps.

I do not use WBjr's input to the kid. I have one whizbang on each battery bank and that data is fed to the main charger for that bank, a Classic 150.

In my case the Kid is the helper and the Classic is primary. My Classic and kid do not communicate.

I do not use follow me on the Classic's due to the fact that most times the battery banks are separate ,but when I have really fowl weather all 4 MidNite controllers are feeding the battery bank in use. When that bank is too low to support the loads I switch to the other battery bank, inverter, DC loads, and all available chargers.

My shunts have two connections each , the WBjr's calculate the total contribution of that controller or controllers attached to that bank.
I have two Bogart Engineering battery monitors, one RV 2025 and one RV 2030, one assigned to each battery bank which monitor the status of that battery bank.

It's a bit more complicated than that as I switch in or out the whizbang when not using that bank (only for the controllers feeding the other bank). And I have two BTS's  on each battery bank and swap BTS input to the Classic to the bank in use so the Classic gets the real temperature for that bank.

I could use follow me and BTSnet to share the data, but since I switch frequently during stormy weather I found this method to work better.  I also over panel seriously during stormy weather and I can net 3kw/h with two banks @ 2400 watts and two at 1200 watts. If I have to I can also power up a bank of C-40's to help out. I have not started my generators to charge batteries only for several years now, however I do welding so do use the generator for that, using the extra power to charges battery banks.

Way to complicated but I'm an engineer. Just have to tinker with things.

David
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

BlackwaterPark

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2019, 09:23:49 PM »


Yes to your point about the grounds - if you have the PV negative going directly to the PV neg input on the Kid - and then have  the Battery negative going to buss bar with all other negatives  - that is okay as long as the PV negative doesn't go to it also. 

Yes to your point about the shunt . One side ( does not matter which side )  of the shunt has only one connection to the battery negative.  All other system negatives are on the other side of the shunt.  The Whizbang gets mounted on the shunt in correct orientation as specified in instructions.

Larry
[/quote]

I think I follow you here, Larry.  So, does this mean I should take the negative coming from the PV output of the kid and switch it from the bus bar to the shunt then? If I bypassed both and went straight to the battery then the wbjr would effectively be useless, right?

BlackwaterPark

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2019, 09:29:10 PM »
Dave, you're probably right about all that, especially the charger feeding the inverter.  When I first threw everything online, breaker by breaker, things seemed ok except the kid not reading any input from anything.  Then, when I plugged the Iota in,  I noticed the gif tripped on the outlet, powering nothing but a laptop and a desk modem.   I guess this tells me I'm not using the bus bars correctly.

tecnodave

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2019, 10:58:17 PM »
BWP,

Can you post a few pictures, it will help a lot diagnosing the problem.

Ok on the PV negative going directly to the p.v. negative of the Kid.

If your negative buss bar goes directly to the shunt then that step is ok.

I would like you to do a simple test:

Write down all recorded values read during this test,
I am assuming that the iota is good
Test is only to confirm kid reads the whizbang current provided by the iota

Turn off inverter,
Turn off all loads,
Turn off Kid, wait 20 seconds, turn on Kid
Read current, voltage,on kid display...should be 0 amps ...volts of battery
Turn on iota charger, powered by outside source,
Read voltage, current as displayed on the kid.

You should now be reading the output of the iota charger

Reading should be 23 amps charge...... If I understand you correct that iota is rated at 23 amps at 27 volts

Wait a bit then read voltage ,current again.....voltage should be creeping up a bit

Report back here with your findings

Second item,
Read all labels on panels, 
Manufacturer, model
VOC....volts open circuit
VMP....volts at maximum power
IMP......current at maximum power
ISC.....current at short circuit

If there is a recommended fuse for each panel, list that

When done you will have 5 groups of data,

Current status of test
4 sets of panel data

Post those here and I will read findings, others will chime in. 

David


I'm searching wind-sun forum tonight but will pop back here from time to time
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

BlackwaterPark

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2019, 07:13:36 PM »
Ok, was away for a couple days, and won't be able to drop those tests or apic till tomorrow. In the meantime, I drafted this super professional looking blueprint to show how things are wired.

tecnodave

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2019, 10:14:20 PM »
BWP,

that drawing shows that you do indeed have things wired up correctly.
The kid with whizbang should be able to read the iota current.

Now the test.

The reason that I want the panel data is to figure some senseical  way to connect the panels.

I started with surplus 30-50 year old Arco and Seimens panels and some cheap PWM controller.
Reading this forum and solar-electric forum has thought me so much more than dozens of books that I read.

Time for me to payback helping newcomers.

Please forgive my iPad for the horrible spelling, I can't seem to teach it.  LOL

David
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

ClassicCrazy

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2019, 11:43:51 PM »
BWP,

that drawing shows that you do indeed have things wired up correctly.
The kid with whizbang should be able to read the iota current.

Now the test.

The reason that I want the panel data is to figure some senseical  way to connect the panels.

I started with surplus 30-50 year old Arco and Seimens panels and some cheap PWM controller.
Reading this forum and solar-electric forum has thought me so much more than dozens of books that I read.

Time for me to payback helping newcomers.

Please forgive my iPad for the horrible spelling, I can't seem to teach it.  LOL

David

I have my two original Arco 50 watt panels I bought in the 80's I think it was. They still are in use for small remote system - submersible bilge pump . The cells look terrible - all faded or weird looking but they still put out enough power for the little battery and use they get. I am not using my original controller which was a Bobier PWM thing . I learned how to ruin a cold battery when you don't have a temperature compensated charge controller - ha ha .  The other two old Arco panels I have I mounted on a bicycle kid cart - stripped all the canvas off of it and the front drops down at 45 degrees so easy enough to mount panels on . You can roll it around and makes great portable power for running electric fencer in the garden.

Larry
system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

tecnodave

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Re: kidd wiring questions
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 01:35:49 AM »
Larry,

I'm going to post a picture of a couple of 33 cell ARCO panels that sat in the Arizona desert powering a a radio repeater on a hill top for 30 or more years. The black cells have been burnt brown, checked and cracked. They still deliver near full power. I've seen 45 watts out of them, it's night here and too dark for pictures. How about a contest for the most dog eared panels. I still have a dozen or so of the Seimens 55 watt panels, maybe the same ones you have. SM-55's  Can't remember the model of the ARCO panels but those are the only 33 cell panels that I have seen. Stage two of the "self regulating panel" the first ones were 30 cell and I've seen a few of those!

David
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P