Author Topic: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti  (Read 1000 times)

Doug

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2019, 04:09:36 PM »
I took a quick look at that chart and that rating is at 105°C.
The other numbers that you have look a lot closer to reasonable.

Vic

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 04:16:05 PM »
Hi SUnny..,

Doug is correct,   here is one of the Footnotes in that Data SHeet that you Linked;

   "   ...   **The 105°C cable ampacities are adapted from ICEA P-54-440/NEMA WC51-86(R1991). The ampacities are provided for informational purposes only. Acceptance of these values by any governing authority is the responsibility of the end user. Ampacities are based on a single conductor, in free air, at 30°C ambient air temperature.   "

in the US,   we normally use NEC Ampacities  --  three current carrying conductors,   in conduit/raceway,   40 C ambient.

Your standards are probably different.
EDIT:  Should add,  That Cobra cable appears to be  Fine-Strand.   This type cable may not be compatible with the connections on each end of this cable run.

Also,   believe that all of the MN breakers are rated for 75 C maximum for cable connections,   therefore 75 C Amapcity is the maximum useable rating  --  use 75 C Ampacity Max.

There can be some ways to bend these ratings a bit.   Again,  it does depend upon any regulations that are applied there.

 FWIW,   Vic
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 04:31:03 PM by Vic »
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

SunnyIAV

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2019, 07:00:27 PM »
Hi Vic... Thanks for your comments, I have read so many of your posts, and they have been very helpful.

If I am not mistaken the Cobra X-Flex I was referring to may be the same recommended by Midnite Solar for battery-inverter cable for the MNDC box because of its flexibility - bottom of page 3 of the MNDC manual - wire type section.

Link -  http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/mndc125_250_manual.pdf

I was also under the impression that Fine-Strand cable is widely used for battery cables'

I must admit that I was surprised the ampacity was so high for 2/0 and as you  pointed out that is not an NEC chart.

By the way , when it comes to standard, I will follow the code for the US since there is no code I am aware of specific to Haiti.

That said, what would be the acceptable size for an inline fuse mounted close to the battery for 2/0 cable? I am sure the type of insulation may be a factor as well.

Harry


48V Off-grid System

1890W panel array(6 x 315) in 3S2P configuration, MNPV3 Combiner, MNDC Enclosure, Whiz Bang JR, Classic 150 CC, 2.5K 48V Cotek Inverter, 4 x 12v 204 AH FLA Trojan (SPRE 12 225)...

tecnodave

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2019, 08:42:00 PM »
Harry,

I would use a 125 amp breaker for the Cotek inverter, that will protect the wire and the inverter.
There is no need for a larger breaker here. Personally I don't put a fuse right at the battery, I have very short cabling. But if you do make sure it is rated for the voltage used, some can arc over with too high a voltage.

On the NEC.....ampacities for each type of wire are different with the different types of insulation.
Battery cable and CobraXflex are not NEC types of cable and therefore are not listed in NEC charts.
The only type acceptable in the NEC is MTW (machine tool wire)  this is not listed in any of my NEC charts.  It is a fine strand type of wire and has 1061 strands verses 19 strand THHN. CobraXflex is even finer strand at 1056 strand.  The outside diameter of the copper strands in fine strand is larger than 19 strand. Different terminals are used.  They have a larger inside diameter than 19 strand terminals.

I have been buying my terminals at NAWS and Temcoindustrial.com  Tower electric motor co. Near here in Freemont, CA.  Their terminals are correct size for fine strand welding cable, CobraXflex., etc.
I use welding cable...1056 strand.......it's not code......it's rated for much tougher duty than NEC and I've never had an issue with it.
  Temcoindustrial.com does have attractive pricing, great service and the best hydraulic crimper that I have seen in a while...they work well!  I am going to post on these crimper so with some pic's so others can see these.....maybe in off topic....ill find a place for it.

These Crimpers can be seen on Amazon but I went to the source and bought direct from temco.
They are highly industrial (temco) but you can set up an account with Visa card of whatever? and still get good service onesey...twosey....big price break in quantity.

David

#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

Vic

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2019, 09:37:36 PM »
Hi Harry,

Had little time earlier.   I should have mentioned that Fine strand cable needs lugs designed for the cable that is used,   and crimped with proper tools and ides.

You are correct,  that essentially all battery interconnects and inverter cables that we use for battery based systems ARE fine stranded.

Believe that the large MN MNEDC breakers have bolted connections,   so it is just down to the cable lugs and the tooling to crimp them.

If the cable for the breaker is inside a  MidNite e-panel,  or similar,   the free-air rating for a single cable  would probably fly,   although would use the 75 C Amapcity,   due to the specs on the breaker.

Inverter cables are often not really In free-air,   although  on some older Xantrex systems 4/0 cable was supplied,   and connected to a 250 A breaker.   This appeared to be technically a bit undersized at 40 C in conduit with other current-carrying cables,   but was CSA Listed,   so there are fine details that can matter.

Am not a Code Expert.   MidNite tech folks ARE experts,   so would listen to them.

Good luck with your system,   Harry.      Vic
Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548s, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 3X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  Thanks MN for Great Products/Service/Support!

SunnyIAV

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2019, 12:09:29 AM »
Harry,

I would use a 125 amp breaker for the Cotek inverter, that will protect the wire and the inverter.
There is no need for a larger breaker here. Personally I don't put a fuse right at the battery, I have very short cabling. But if you do make sure it is rated for the voltage used, some can arc over with too high a voltage.

On the NEC.....ampacities for each type of wire are different with the different types of insulation.
Battery cable and CobraXflex are not NEC types of cable and therefore are not listed in NEC charts.
The only type acceptable in the NEC is MTW (machine tool wire)  this is not listed in any of my NEC charts.  It is a fine strand type of wire and has 1061 strands verses 19 strand THHN. CobraXflex is even finer strand at 1056 strand.  The outside diameter of the copper strands in fine strand is larger than 19 strand. Different terminals are used.  They have a larger inside diameter than 19 strand terminals.

I have been buying my terminals at NAWS and Temcoindustrial.com  Tower electric motor co. Near here in Freemont, CA.  Their terminals are correct size for fine strand welding cable, CobraXflex., etc.
I use welding cable...1056 strand.......it's not code......it's rated for much tougher duty than NEC and I've never had an issue with it.
  Temcoindustrial.com does have attractive pricing, great service and the best hydraulic crimper that I have seen in a while...they work well!  I am going to post on these crimper so with some pic's so others can see these.....maybe in off topic....ill find a place for it.

These Crimpers can be seen on Amazon but I went to the source and bought direct from temco.
They are highly industrial (temco) but you can set up an account with Visa card of whatever? and still get good service onesey...twosey....big price break in quantity.

David

Thank you Dave for all your input and education. My MNDC enclosure came with no breakout tab, on the side, just a 1" 1/2  opening suitable for the 175 or 250 breakers.I will need to get creative if I want to mount the 1' wide MNEDC125.

I had ordered some Cobra X-Flex 2/0 cable + 2/0 Compression lugs from the same location, I will have to contact them tomorrow for recommended fuse size. I wonder what Midnite recommends since they carry the Cobra X-Flex cable.

 Link:  http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=448&productCatName=Battery%20Accessories&productCat_ID=39&sortOrder=7&act=pc

As a matter of fact the MIDNITE SOLAR E-PANEL PLUS, 250A FOR OUTBACK INVERTERS such as the VFX3524(edited) come with the Cobra X Flex 2/0.

Thanks for the other thread regarding the the Temco crimping tool. I definitely will get one .

Harry
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 06:09:13 PM by SunnyIAV »
48V Off-grid System

1890W panel array(6 x 315) in 3S2P configuration, MNPV3 Combiner, MNDC Enclosure, Whiz Bang JR, Classic 150 CC, 2.5K 48V Cotek Inverter, 4 x 12v 204 AH FLA Trojan (SPRE 12 225)...

ClassicCrazy

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2019, 10:37:44 PM »
I always ordered the mini dc boxes that came with the breaker.  If you ordered a bare box maybe it was the one sized for larger breakers - they do have a box for the 125 amp breaker. But I bet a piece of tin and some snips can make yourself and adapter or something to fill in the extra opening.

Larry


system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

tecnodave

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2019, 11:02:33 PM »
Larry,

I have looked for boxes for (breaker only) the MN125 DC and MN175/250DC  found nothing, .......had an old 2 pole AC breaker box, sazsall's, drill, etc. made my own. Breaker handle on side. These breakers must be mounted vertically. 

david
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

ClassicCrazy

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2019, 11:06:48 PM »
Larry,

I have looked for boxes for (breaker only) the MN125 DC and MN175/250DC  found nothing, .......had an old 2 pole AC breaker box, sazsall's, drill, etc. made my own. Breaker handle on side. These breakers must be mounted vertically. 

david

This is what I am talking about .
https://www.solar-electric.com/mndc125.html

Larry
system one
Classic 150 , 5s4p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system two
Classic 150 ,5s 135 watt Kyocero , 16s Calb 100AH LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system three
Midnite KID MPPT 24 DC in to  12 volt AGM batterie

tecnodave

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2019, 11:35:33 PM »
Larry,

I know about that one, I was looking for a box more like the MNDCQUAD but for the bigger frame size of the 125 breakers. Have a pile af AC boxes that I have pulled out of service, I find one with enough room and make my own. Same for my MagnaSine inverter. I did not want to buy an e-panel for a inverter which will be replaced by Rosie the inverter......I paid less for the MagnaSine than an equipped e-panel costs. I don't care about UL listings......building inspectors not allowed!

I ended making a box like the MNDC15 but for Carlingswich E frame breakers. It has 10 spaces and fits 2 ea MN250DC breakers and 2 ea. of the 156 amp 4 gang switches from the garage sale. They were 156 amp, 600 volt switches 4 poles in series. I made custom busses and paralled the switches for a 624 amp 150 volt battery switch.  These are the main battery cutoff switches for inverters and DC loads on my 2 battery banks. All my controllers are breakered straight to the battery buss from the MNDC15 panel panel that I use as my main breaker box. Most DC load breakers are in the MNDC15 main breaker box. All loads go from the MNDC15 box to the main battery cutoff switches in the TDDC10 box.....the one I built.  The controllers all feed from the input side of the load bank switches.........complicated but any controller can charge either bank but all loads are one one bank (either one) or both banks in parallel...Controllers have 2 DC breakers, one for each bank, two BTS's ,switchable, for monitoring temps....It always evolving, I just fiddle it and make improvements a bit at a time.

david
#1 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24volt L-16 Rolls-Surette S-530, MS4024 & Cotek ,  C-40 dirv.cont. for hot water
#2 Classic 150 12 x Sharp NE-170, 2S6P, 24 volt L-16 Interstate,Brutus Inv.
#3 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 4/6 P
#4 Kid/WBjr 4/6 Sanyo 200 watt multilayer 2S 2/3 P

SunnyIAV

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2019, 11:50:01 PM »
Larry,

I have looked for boxes for (breaker only) the MN125 DC and MN175/250DC  found nothing, .......had an old 2 pole AC breaker box, sazsall's, drill, etc. made my own. Breaker handle on side. These breakers must be mounted vertically. 

david

Thank you fellows.  I originally ordered the MNDC250, it came with the 250 amp breakers packed inside the box, and the  breaker opening was already cut to fit that size. I can no longer return it to get one where the 125 breaker would fit since it's already over 45 days. The enclosure probably comes with a knockout plate that allows to fit two breaker sizes, and it get removed at some point to fit the appropriate breaker. This is a guess.

I am sure I will figure something out once I receive my MNEDC125 breaker.

Harry

This is what I am talking about .
https://www.solar-electric.com/mndc125.html

Larry
48V Off-grid System

1890W panel array(6 x 315) in 3S2P configuration, MNPV3 Combiner, MNDC Enclosure, Whiz Bang JR, Classic 150 CC, 2.5K 48V Cotek Inverter, 4 x 12v 204 AH FLA Trojan (SPRE 12 225)...

keithwhare

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2019, 09:36:38 PM »
Harry


I am upgrading an off-grid system (48V) in Haiti...


Where in Haiti is your system located? I've done a bit of solar work at a clinic in the Dumay area (south of Croix de Boquet).

Keith

SunnyIAV

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2019, 10:11:11 PM »
Hi Keith,

I am at Ile-a-Vache, right in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. I have read  some of your posts here and at NAWS, they are very informative.

A big thank you for the work you are doing in Haiti. They definitely need it.

Harry
48V Off-grid System

1890W panel array(6 x 315) in 3S2P configuration, MNPV3 Combiner, MNDC Enclosure, Whiz Bang JR, Classic 150 CC, 2.5K 48V Cotek Inverter, 4 x 12v 204 AH FLA Trojan (SPRE 12 225)...

keithwhare

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2019, 02:05:44 PM »
On Ile-a-Vache, you have to take everything with you the first time -- it's a long trip to get additional parts.

Do you use boats of planes to get there?

Keith

SunnyIAV

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Re: Looking for help Configuring a 48V System in Haiti
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2019, 05:40:00 PM »
Hi Keith,

You are absolutely right right, you have to bring with you , if you need it. It’s a long trip 4 hour flight from NY, 5 hours by car to Les Cayes, depending on traffic than a 30 min boat ride .

This is the one of the reason I am trying to ask as many questions as possible, learn as much as I can in order to get all the right equipment down to the last washer. As you already know, missing one single piece of equipment can make the difference between proceeding with an installation and postponing until the next trip.

Thanks for forums like this one, and all the good hearted folks that graciously and generously share their knowledge.

Harry

48V Off-grid System

1890W panel array(6 x 315) in 3S2P configuration, MNPV3 Combiner, MNDC Enclosure, Whiz Bang JR, Classic 150 CC, 2.5K 48V Cotek Inverter, 4 x 12v 204 AH FLA Trojan (SPRE 12 225)...