Author Topic: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS  (Read 1110 times)

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« on: November 05, 2019, 02:09:52 PM »
I found myself in a  situation where my old Rolls Surette S-550's have decided they are considering retirement (and giving me few options) ;-(   Therefore I had to come up with options and unfortunately Midnite does not have Battery Packs as yet.  I investigated using Tesla Model S packs, Chevy Volt packs, building my own Powerwall, assembling prismatic LifePO4 etc... Gave my brain some pain !  At least less than the root canal I just had...   In the end I had to fall back to the KISS Rule and Keep It Simple and so I pulled the trigger.

I purchased this through Amazon CA (I'm Canadian it's simpler) but here is the link to amazon COM USA : 
https://www.amazon.com/Lifepo4-Lithium-Battery-System-battery/dp/B07TWD17TZ/ref=sr_1_9?m=ANA8H5T2PNW83&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&qid=1572785488&refinements=p_4%3ASHUNBIN&s=merchant-items&sr=1-9&th=1

These have independent BMS' built in.  They cannot be communicated with or monitored, stand-alone.  They can be connected Serial or Parallel and come in different AH & VDC ratings plus they can mod / adjust the BMS to suit your needs.  I asked the merchant a couple of question and they responded both times within 5 minutes (on a Sunday no less).

I decided on this brand after reading & seeing photo's from others and their experiences with these products (nothing negative).  A few fellows have even torn them down and seriously looked at everything & tested everything.  I cross referenced the company & it's history ands felt reasonably good about it.  I hate talking risks !

Drawbacks:
Built in BMS with no external communications and no option to change that.  Could be pulled & replaced if inclined.
BMS with high and low voltage disconnect, high temperature protection, no low temperature protection
others :  ??  unknown at this time but a few are doing some serious testing ATM so we will see.

I hope to receive it by end of month NOV.26 latest (per amazon) at which I will be doing Due Diligence and thoroughly looking it over, taking photo's etc which I will post here for people wishing to follow along.

IF anyone is interested there is an ongoing series of threads related to these and other packs, diy & more here:
https://diysolarforum.com/index.php    It's a NEW Forum replacing an old one that got trashed, so fairly fresh but moving at pace.

Hope this helps anyone looking for Battery Pack options.
Steve
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 02:16:47 PM by Steve_S »
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

qrper

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2019, 03:04:40 PM »
Hi, Steve,
 
Wondering why you didn't go with another set of Rolls Surette S-550s?

When my 48 V battery bank went south, I looked at the Lifepo4 and couldn't quite pull the trigger. I end up with 16 US Battery L16 type lead acid. I got seven  years out of the old Sam's club golf cart batteries, so I'm hoping for at least 10 perhaps 12 years on this set.  By then, I'll be to the point were I don't know if I'll care about replacing the bank again.

Right now, I have 884 ampHrs of storage. Of course, I only suck out 50% and rarely do that much. I know the lithium batteries can be discharged much deeper than the lead acid.

I came really close to going with a industrial fork lift battery, but couldn't figure out a way to move it into place, without a forklift!


mike
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2019, 04:12:52 PM »
The simple answer... you get more capacity on DOD, much faster charging, which is always good.  As for Rolls, S-550 was renamed and made more expensive of course and the $ difference (< $500) for a pack that will last a hell of a lot longer, not to mention Maintenance Free, Non-Toxic & Safer.  it simply was a no brainer.

Canadian Dollars:
8X Rolls-Surrette S6 L16-HC (was S-550)   $3,751.6‬0 including 13% HST   428AH @ 20 net
1x 24V/400AH LifePO4 $3999 with a safe DOD of 80%
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 04:14:25 PM by Steve_S »
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

mike90045

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
    • The Ranch (via facebook re-direct)
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2019, 03:27:59 AM »
If there is any chance your batteries can get below freezing, your BMS HAS to have a thermal block for charging and a heater pad for the batteries.   you WILL destroy the batteries charging below freezing.   
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2019, 07:45:30 AM »
Fortunately for me, the powerhouse is independently heated to 10C/50F during winter but I am considering on those  thermostatically controlled heating pads which are quite plentiful as a backup option.  Something like this possibly:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-9x5-Water-Holding-Tank-Heater-Pad-w-Automatic-Thermostat-for-RV-Camper-/173730225434

The pack only measures 12"x24" +/- a tad.

Because I'm using a Classic 200 and the Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger setting up the charge profiles is a tad trickier, plus the available amps for charging will have to be programmed in as well, maybe a charge rate of 50 Amps max ?.

Bulk Voltage: 28V - 29.2V
Absorption Voltage *: 28V - 29.2V Absorption Time 0-15 min
Float Voltage *: 26.6V - 27.6V
Equalize *: OFF or as short time possible @ float voltage
VOLTAGE CUTOFFS Low Voltage: 22V High Voltage: 29.2V
* not necessary
I'm making the "assumption" from my collected research, that by using a lower rate @ 28V to charge vs 29V can help mitigate some heating potential and extend life cycles (very generalised) but there seems to be some extended debate on that.

If it had a different BMS I could use the Control Signal capability to start/stop charging on the Samlex & Classic but it doesn't have that from my understanding. Gosh I'm anxious to get mine.
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

qrper

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2019, 09:32:54 AM »
Steve,

how much current can you pull from these batteries?

My old Trace 5548, while I've never loaded it to full bore, I've seen 93 A draw out of the battery bank on more than one occasion. This wasn't a peak load, but one that lasted perhaps an hour or less.

\mike
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2019, 10:12:40 AM »
per the info on the product: 
The maximum charge current: Less than 50A(can customize)
Continuous discharge current: 100A(Adjustable on demand)
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2019, 08:56:33 AM »
This topic is also on https://diysolarforum.com/threads/shunbin-battery-packs-12v-24v-100ah-and-up.1304/
A Few folks are getting "into" these doing tests & tear downs etc....  The Good / Bad & Ugly will get posted as discovered / determined, if anyone is interested in following along.   Mine is now in Alaska in transit and should hopefully be in my hands next week.

NOTE there is far more info in that thread related to these packs as well.
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2019, 12:26:56 PM »
Just a quick addition,  The pack Arrived November 19th, all 71Kg / 156lbs of it.  See the link above for the ongoing thread on this pack.
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

onanparts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 604
    • onanparts.com
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2019, 02:39:37 PM »
Just a quick addition,  The pack Arrived November 19th, all 71Kg / 156lbs of it.  See the link above for the ongoing thread on this pack.

Last post from link above this morning:

I asked for mine to be 24VDC/400AH with 150A instead of 100A and they "said" it is but there is nothing to verify that. No paperwork, no testing check sheet, no assembly / build sheet nothing at all to say what is in there.... They can literally put whatever they have in there and Joe Customer has no idea... I do not even know what Cells they put in there and to find out means serious surgery on the pack, which of course negates any warranty... which BTW, you have to pay to ship it back to Hong Kong (150lbs / 70kg is NOT CHEAP) and then maybe they'll honour a warranty... but guess what, no info on company, their address or contact details or how to make any warranty claims ! See lack of documentation and the UPS delivery paperwork only tells you about the "Shipping Agent" which is totally worthless.

I took the risk (4 grand Canadian) & I don't know IF I got screwed yet ! It works yes but IS IT what I ordered ? Will it perform as expected ? Does it have a 150A BMS ? …. ugh,,,,,


Pic of the BMS bomb board and cells from another buyer of these "Amazon batteries"....Run Forrest, Run!

I got the deluxe kit, it had a solar cell and a meter.

Midnite B17-10 20kW

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2019, 04:56:03 PM »
Those pics are from Delta-V on our site who dug in deeper than I but there are a few subtle differences with mine compared to his.  I will not be gutting mine out as such, although I may replace the BMS with something better which will communicate via RS232/485 Modbus or something which I can drive from a RasberryPi.     

I am now looking for a battery monitoring system which I can have one on the LFP pack and one on the FLA pack.  The WizbangJr won't be of any help n regards to SOC/DOD because of the two different chemistries in 2 separate banks.   Ideally one monitoring each bank and if possible connected to the RasPI as well so I can watch both side and switch over as needed.   This setup is also proving to be a bit of a PITA in regards to the Charging Profiles as I would really prefer NOT to use the charger(s) sent by Shunbin which is a Meanwell clone / copy as shown below.



Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2019, 09:12:40 AM »
 just wanted to post another update...   I dug far deeper into the pack and made some disturbing discoveries.   3 different types of cells for example !    photo's and more posted in
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/shunbin-battery-packs-12v-24v-100ah-and-up.1304/   now on Page-5 of that thread.
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2019, 09:28:32 PM »
Final quick update on the Forum Post of the Rebuild on this pack
Includes, new bus bars, a Chargery BMS8T and rewire eliminating the CCA and other 'stuff'.

Page 8 now, direct to post with photo's:  https://diysolarforum.com/threads/shunbin-battery-packs-12v-24v-100ah-and-up.1304/page-8#post-25882
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 09:30:22 PM by Steve_S »
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0

mike90045

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
    • The Ranch (via facebook re-direct)
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2019, 02:37:42 AM »
Does that kit limit charging in cold temps ?
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

Steve_S

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Bought new LifePO4, 24V/400AH with internal BMS
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2019, 08:05:36 AM »
The Chargery BMS does not have a Low Temp Cutoff unfortunately but in my particular case it isn't an major issue as such, as my power/pumphouse is independently heated and kept at 10C / 50F +/- 2 degrees.  There are some work arounds such as RV Bilge / water warmers and tank warmers which can run from the battery with their own temp sensor and not use a lot of juice (others have done so @ DIY solar power forum).

The Low Temp cutoff is an issue raised very often and for some weird reason most BMS' out there don't address that, only High Temp (which is very bad too).   I spent a lot of tie researching and would have pulled the trigger on a TinyBMS which has it (and more) but that would have doubled the cost... of course there is Orion and others but now that's even bigger bucks.   
Classic-200, Samlex EVO-4024 Inverter/Charger, 2080W of Canadian Solar CS-260P in 2 strings of 4,  8x Rolls Surette S-550 24V/856Ah battery bank.  1, 24V/400AH LiFePO4 pack (new)
System Detail: http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4643.0