Anyone using forklift lead acid batteries

Started by qrper, February 19, 2020, 04:25:32 PM

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qrper

I'm kicking around the idea of tinkering with some forklift batteries. I have a local company that i'm going to see about purchasing some cells. The biggest challenge I see is I need a forklift to move a forklift battery.

Does anyone have some stories they'd like share?

Mike
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

ClassicCrazy

#1
I have friends who have a forklift battery type - East Penn Deka that comes in steel case.
There are two types - one has all the cells preinstalled with the buss bars leaded in .
The other type that my friends have - the cells have a screw stud on top . So that way you can put a strap on and move each cell separately and then put it back together again . That way you don't need a forklift to move it !
They have had good results using theirs over the years .
Their battery was new and not used .

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

bee88man

#2
I bought used/reconditioned and weighs better than 2000 pounds at 805 A/hrs.
I have daylight basement with 9x7 overhead garage door and a pallet jack to move and position.
Overhead steel beam was used as rigging point to unload off pickup truck delivery.
This all worked well and battery remains on reinforced pallet parked along partition opposite DC battery breaker and charge controllers and iverter/chargers. This keeps any battery cables very short while providing off gasing separattion by partition separation from electrical gear on opposite side.

Vic

#3
Hi Mike,

Some thoughts on Forklift batteries,  compared to FLAs,   they generally:

Come in a metal "Tray",   where cells contact each other,  or with the tray.  They must be kept in the tray when in use  --  the individual cells (Jars)  have flexible walls,   and if removed from the tray,  electrolyte levels need to be checked/topped up on any neighbor cells soon after removal,  etc.

Use relatively high SG electrolyte (1.285-ish,  or so).  This usually means relative high charge voltages.  And exhibit somewhat higher self-discharge rates.

Have a fairly small Electrolyte Reserve (space for electrolyte above the plates).   This can mean more electrolyte spatter,   and probably more acid vapor.

Need checking of electrolyte level more frequently,   and use somewhat more water.

Have relatively thick plates,   allowing high charge/discharge rates.   The standard listed Capacity is often at the 8-hour rate (sometimes 6 hr.),   but one vendor  (Giant,  IIRC),   that lists an 20 Hr rate, is said to be  too optimistic,   so may need to oversize the battery to compensate.

For a given Ah Capacity,  have fewer plates,   exhibiting poorer surge current performance (higher voltage drop during surge,  for a given current).

Will accept deeper discharges (down to a max of 20% SOC)  but would need to be completely recharged from these low SOC levels in a day or less (IMO).

They are heavy,   and need handling equipment.   HUP Solar One allows individual cells to be removed,   moved  and re-installed in their tray,  because each cell is bolted to a busbar rail, verses cast busbars for most other Lift batteries.

EDIT:  OOooooppppppsss forgot to mention,  that  Lift batteries are usually tall,   and this can create greater electrolyte Stratification.   This can mean that these batteries can need more frequent EQing (depending on how they are cycled,   Absorb voltage,   etc)<.

They are a bit of a different animal than customary FLAs,    and when used in off-grid systems,  may really want more Solar/Genset power than traditional deep-cycle FLAs.

All just my opinions.   I am NO battery expert !     73,   GL  Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

qrper

Hi, Vic

Lead-acid batteries and I are old friends. However that being said, I've been looking for something to keep me off the streets at night.

I have a lead on a 24 V 250 amp/hr fork lift battery at $1800. This is for a reconditioned one.

What I can't see to get my mind wrapped around is the fact that I can get four-6 volt golf cart batteries for a lot less money and end up with damn near the same capacity.

I know the forklift battery is built a lot bigger, stronger, and beefier than the golf cart batteries, but is it worth the difference in price?

mike, wb8vge
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

ClassicCrazy

#5
Quote from: qrper on February 22, 2020, 03:49:54 PM
Hi, Vic

Lead-acid batteries and I are old friends. However that being said, I've been looking for something to keep me off the streets at night.

I have a lead on a 24 V 250 amp/hr fork lift battery at $1800. This is for a reconditioned one.

What I can't see to get my mind wrapped around is the fact that I can get four-6 volt golf cart batteries for a lot less money and end up with damn near the same capacity.

I know the forklift battery is built a lot bigger, stronger, and beefier than the golf cart batteries, but is it worth the difference in price?

mike, wb8vge
The fork lift batteries I have seen are not in the same league as golf cart batteries - they are a lot bigger.
I wouldn't buy a reconditioned lead acid battery for that price.  How would you know how old the cells are ?
Did you see the recent post on lithium batteries posted on the forums here ? Something to maybe consider.
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4821.0

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

qrper

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 22, 2020, 09:07:21 PM
Quote from: qrper on February 22, 2020, 03:49:54 PM
Hi, Vic

Lead-acid batteries and I are old friends. However that being said, I've been looking for something to keep me off the streets at night.

I have a lead on a 24 V 250 amp/hr fork lift battery at $1800. This is for a reconditioned one.

What I can't see to get my mind wrapped around is the fact that I can get four-6 volt golf cart batteries for a lot less money and end up with damn near the same capacity.

I know the forklift battery is built a lot bigger, stronger, and beefier than the golf cart batteries, but is it worth the difference in price?

mike, wb8vge
The fork lift batteries I have seen are not in the same league as golf cart batteries - they are a lot bigger.
I wouldn't buy a reconditioned lead acid battery for that price.  How would you know how old the cells are ?
Did you see the recent post on lithium batteries posted on the forums here ? Something to maybe consider.
http://midniteftp.com/forum/index.php?topic=4821.0

Larry

That's what I was thinking. I know they're not quite apples to apples, being twice the size and four times the weight. But still?? $That much money for the same capacity as four golf cart batteries? When I was a Trojan battery dealer, I always told my customers, "Only the rich can afford cheap batteries."
And here I am years, later, looking at cheap batteries.
I tossed the lithium battery bank around before I settled with the old favorites, the L16 from US Battery. While I know the chemistry is far superior, more power per pound, the initial price was simply outside my budget. As it turned out the lead acid set me back about $5k. So they weren't cheap either. The lithium was nearly $15K for a battery bank a bit smaller in capacity than the lead acid.

Like I said, this is more an experiment and something to waste my time with. The final idea is to run a 1000ish sine wave inverter to operate some of the radios in the hams shack.

I'm mike
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

ClassicCrazy

Not following you on why you would want to run your radio's off of an inverter instead of direct from DC ?
I have a Samlex 24 to 12 DC converter - much better than the noise you get from an inverter. At least my Outback inverter has been making a lot of noise. I put a bunch of ferrite on the battery cables . Maybe something else wrong with the inverter internal - bad capacitor? I just bought a small inverter to tide me over so I can take the Outback apart one of these days . I have not gotten around to trying the new inverter - a Victron sinewave - to see if it makes as much or any noise on the radios.

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

qrper

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 23, 2020, 04:55:03 PM
Not following you on why you would want to run your radio's off of an inverter instead of direct from DC ?
I have a Samlex 24 to 12 DC converter - much better than the noise you get from an inverter. At least my Outback inverter has been making a lot of noise. I put a bunch of ferrite on the battery cables . Maybe something else wrong with the inverter internal - bad capacitor? I just bought a small inverter to tide me over so I can take the Outback apart one of these days . I have not gotten around to trying the new inverter - a Victron sinewave - to see if it makes as much or any noise on the radios.

Larry

Oh, that's simple. Some of the ham radios I use cough and gag with anything less than 13.8 V. My Argonaut 5 will shut the rec audio down with the input voltage is still 12.5 V. Plenty of grunt left in a 12 V battery, but the radio doesn't like it.

Yeah, I know it makes no sense at all the invert 12 V to 110 ac only to reconvert it back to 13.8 V dc. Lots of inefficiency and I'm aware of it.

Mike
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

ClassicCrazy

Quote from: qrper on February 24, 2020, 12:08:59 PM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 23, 2020, 04:55:03 PM
Not following you on why you would want to run your radio's off of an inverter instead of direct from DC ?
I have a Samlex 24 to 12 DC converter - much better than the noise you get from an inverter. At least my Outback inverter has been making a lot of noise. I put a bunch of ferrite on the battery cables . Maybe something else wrong with the inverter internal - bad capacitor? I just bought a small inverter to tide me over so I can take the Outback apart one of these days . I have not gotten around to trying the new inverter - a Victron sinewave - to see if it makes as much or any noise on the radios.

Larry

Oh, that's simple. Some of the ham radios I use cough and gag with anything less than 13.8 V. My Argonaut 5 will shut the rec audio down with the input voltage is still 12.5 V. Plenty of grunt left in a 12 V battery, but the radio doesn't like it.

Yeah, I know it makes no sense at all the invert 12 V to 110 ac only to reconvert it back to 13.8 V dc. Lots of inefficiency and I'm aware of it.

Mike

This Samlex has been doing the job for me and has 13.8v output . They also have higher amp output models.
https://www.samlexamerica.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=59
I wasn't thinking of the inefficiency so much as the more load on the inverters the more noise they might make.
Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

qrper

I have a 600 W 12 V dc sine wave inverter that seems to work okay without producing RFI.

With this inverter hooked to a 32 amp/hr battery I use it in the field to solder coax connectors. Yeah, I know I could use a propane powered soldering iron, but this works fine in a pinch.

As soon as the weather breaks a bit, I'm going to do a road trip to a local battery shop and see about some cells from a fork lift battery.

mike
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

ClassicCrazy

Mike ,
The battery shop I was at reconditioned forklift battery packs. They would load test each cell and then take out the bad ones and put in cells from other packs that had the same load test results to try and match them.
They said that the cells in the middle of the packs were the ones that usually failed because those were the ones that got hottest.
So maybe if you went to a place like I did where they took the time to do all that load testing but if you were at a place that just does a voltage test and takes out failed cells - I wouldn't want a used battery. The other thing to consider is not only that they still have the capacity to deliver a load , but older lead acid batteries get a higher self discharge as they age. So probably not a big deal if you were using for a forklift and charging every night  . But for solar - it would be like having a bucket with holes in it and the charge is going to leak out - depends on how fast but that would take some other kind of testing that no one is going to do. So you could I guess look at an old battery as something like a capacitor - lots of available power but won't hold it for a long time .

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

qrper

Yup,
there sure are issues to be overcome. I at present, don't have the $$$$ to buy a new forklift battery.

There is a guy one mile up the road from me that sells solar panels and inverters and such.

He's got coming in large lead acid wet cells, 4 V each, at 500 pounds each, with racks, that he'll have for sale. I don't know the price yet, but most likely well beyond my budget. I'll post some photos if I can

mike
System one: 7kWp w/ Trina 250 W panels @90 Vdc. Classic 150 to 16-6 V U.S batteries. Trace 5548 sine wave inverter.
System two: 6kWp grid tie with solaredge inverter.
System three: Midnite Brat, two 120 W Astropower modules, 100 Ah battery. Runs the LED streetlight in the back yard.

Resthome

I have the 12volt HUP solar 845AH set.  You can lift each cell separately out of the case. They are 8 years old now and preforming fine. You just have to make sure you have enough solar to equalize them. Since they are tall you need to be able to charge them with enough amps to strip up the acid. Expect to get at least another 8 years out of them.   
John

10 x Kyocera KC140, Classic 150 w/WBJr, Link10 Battery Monitor, 850 AH @ 12v Solar One 2v cells, Xantrex PROwatt SW2000
Off Grid on Houseboat Lake Don Pedro, CA

daklein

I brought home two recently.  Haven't crushed my toes yet.  Unloading video:   https://photos.app.goo.gl/G9JUjG4SmuEC6yGFA    I moved them by levering with a large steel prybar, and rolling on pipes.   Exide / GNB Tubular LMX model    1900#, 48v, 540Ah each.   I estimate that translates to 1294Ah total at C/20 which is more like how I might use them.

I am setting up the parts from a DC Solar trailer as a battery backup off grid system.  Work in process, need to build a box and venting.  They can _stink_ when charging.  I added midpack fuses yesterday.  https://photos.app.goo.gl/q1euFhioH266nPvW9

They seem to be ok so far.  I don't think I'd want some of the solar trailer batteries, they could have been abused, especially the light tower ones if they're older and have been used like at the racetracks, IMHO.  It's possible to get some idea though.  The SMA inverters have SOC histogram data,  mine said 98 or 99% of time between 90-100 SOC.  Being either lucky or careful in picking which trailer to buy at auction, I think this set were just on the trailer being float charged by the solar for the last two years or so.  There were different model forklift batteries used at different time periods.

I load tested them from 100% down to about 70%, and they seem to have about the right capacity for new.  Electrolyte level was a little low, below the top of the plates.  I added 16 gallons total I think, to the total of 48 cells.  Sounds like a lot, but these are 'low maintenance' with large head space in each cell, maybe not much less than 1/3 gal.   

I probably wouldn't have chosen to buy these, but they came with all the other stuff on the trailer, so I'll use them as long as they work.  Certainly plenty of load capacity, but maybe not so efficient round trip energy wise, especially if staying up in higher SOC range for longer life, just gassing away energy.

Disposing of them someday will be an adventure too.  Maybe I can find someone who can pick them up with a liftgate truck?