Need help with all the settings on my Classic 150

Started by Lisa234, May 08, 2020, 08:11:17 PM

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ClassicCrazy

I have seen AGM batteries show a very good voltage but when they were under load the voltage would take a big dive. 
Your batteries are probably good - but is a good idea to test them to make sure they are up to their specs. Usually  battery manufacturers show a graph that will show what the voltage should be under a certain amp load.  Sometimes the date code can be really hard to spot - usually small print stamped in along the top or along the side somewhere ( often up near top)  Renology almost certainly just buys and rebrands  batteries so it might even be hidden under a sticker if they put on a sticker.  But no problem if they work they work.  Just depends if you want to test to the  specs , but if Renology doesn't publish specs then can't do that.

here is info on East Penn Deka AGM - in general you should expect your AGM to share similar specs if they are of good quality.
The graphs on first page will give you some insight into AGM characteristics . There is one that shows AGM Cycle Life vs Depth of Discharge
https://www.mkbattery.com/application/files/5515/3815/3319/AGM_Brochure.pdf
https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Renewable-Energy-Charging-Parameters-1913.pdf

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

Lisa234

Thanks for that info Larry. Really appreciate your help!
6 300w monocrystalline Renogy panels  wired 3s2p
Midnite Classic 150 CC  w/Whizbang Jr
4 AGM Renogy 12v 200 amp batteries  wired 2s2p (so bank is 24v 400ah)
Aims 3000w Inverter (not an inverter-charger)
Aims 24v battery charger

Lisa234

#47
My partner and I got our WhizBang Jr. installed yesterday but we ran into problems. It had to do with a wiring issue. initially my partner had the controller and the inverter sharing the same negative cable, but last week we ran across a mention in the manual saying wiring in that manner could cause an issue, so, he changed it by running the wire directly to the battery bank, but in re wiring it he inadvertently bypassed the shunt. That was why my Renogy monitor stopped working last week!  So it wasn't a piece of junk afterall, it was operator error!  Anyway so when we put the WBjr in yesterday it was also not working -- it was reading the juice that was flowing to the load as juice coming from the batteries when it was not.  So we were seeing our Stutus screen reading out a negative flow from the batteries like MINUS 15 amps  when the battery was actually at a 100% and in Float.  So the battery SOC in the WBjr Status window started sliding down fast and the AHs as well.  So we knew the problem had to be the wiring and my partner finally realized the WBjr was only reading amps going out to the inverter and logging that as a draw from the battery.  I guess!! Anyway, last night he rewired it and now it's measuring the flow to and from the battery and everything seems okay.  This morning it bulked as usual and went into absorb briefly via End Amps (as usual) and when it went into Float it simultaneously returned to 100% SOC.  Still a problem though: the AHs did not return to 400AH (my battery capacity) but stayed down were it was from the day before at 379AH (that was what it had run down to with the WBjr wired up wrong but I expected that to go back up to 400AH now that the wiring's right).  Interestingly, the AHs have been creeping up all day, about 1 ah per hour and now it's up to 391.  Also, the battery, after holding at 100% for several hours slipped down to 99% SoC at about 2pm but the voltage is still at the Float Set point (27.4) so that seems weird to me. How can 27.4v be 100% and then be 99%?? 

In the status screen the Amp draw reads out about .3 though it wavers up and down a little, continuously and sometimes the MINUS sign appears for a brief moment.
Anyway,  I read through old postings on this forum to see if there was a way I could re-set the AHs and someone said going to the Amp hours screen and pressing left arrow plus enter and holding them down would reset the AHs but I tried that and it didn't do anything. I tried it on several screens and it didn't work.  Anyway, I'm pretty confused by this situation. Perhaps I should do the Full out system reboot?  I have noticed that one of my screens is showing I've drawn 45 AHs from my batteries but that's not so and I'd like to correct that but it seems to be permanent.

Also, I'm not sure what some of my settings should be.  I have my "efficiency" setting on the default at 94%.   Hope that's right.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I hope someone can help me out a little!
6 300w monocrystalline Renogy panels  wired 3s2p
Midnite Classic 150 CC  w/Whizbang Jr
4 AGM Renogy 12v 200 amp batteries  wired 2s2p (so bank is 24v 400ah)
Aims 3000w Inverter (not an inverter-charger)
Aims 24v battery charger

ClassicCrazy

Lisa ,
You have a lot packed in there so I will try to answer some of your questions.
Yes the way the shunt should be installed is - the battery negative cable goes to one side of the shunt  and every other negative on the system will be on the other side of the shunt. This is easy to check - only one connection on one side going to battery - no other negative connections on the battery side ( or direct to the battery ).

If  you haven't done it you need to set the shunt setting to external . And then set  AHs capacity and battery efficiency  in the Whizbang setup screen. You will probably want to start with something like 90% efficient and you can tweak that later to get more accurate. I know Vic puts in a much lower efficiency for flooded lead acid but  you have AGM so is probably higher. 94% is probably okay too. The way I think about it - I would rather err on the side that my batteries are fully charged than not so would rather have the efficiency set a bit lower than higher. As the batteries age you can lower the efficiency over the years to reflect that. Keep in mind that the SOC and the AH counting are not changing any of your charging setpoints - they are only a view of battery capacity .

There is a setting in Tweaks for Whizbang reset - forget what the default is but it will reset the SOC to 100% when Classic goes to float .
I forget where to reset the total AH. Have you read the Midnite knowledge base ? There are a lot of FAQ questions answered there. Also there are a lot of videos on Midnites youtube page that explain a lot of things.

As far as the AH not going back to the total capacity - that can be related to some other factors like not having the efficiency set correctly. The SOC is a good indication of what is going on with the batteries but you need to get it set up correctly by some system observation.  Everything is a bit of a guessing game with what is going on in the batteries but the Whizbang and SOC is probably the best guess you will find.

The amp reading is not directly related to the AH capacity history and counting - I mean if you see some current usage or charging that is real time . You have to consider that you have some loads on the system - inverters draw if on but no loads, the Classic itself draws some power to run it, and whatever other loads you might have on .

Keep in mind too that the batteries SOC capacity gets adjusted by the battery temperature. 

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

Lisa234

Really appreciate it Larry--  Yes I read your post aloud to him and he says he's got the shunt wired correctly now (let's hope so!!). As to the WBjr reset, I set that to "Yes" but it's a daily reset and doesn't reset the complete history. I'd like to get that -45 AHs expunged off my record, but on the other hand I guess it's not a big deal.

As to setting the shunt to external, not sure.  I did select the shunt in the "advanced window". And the shunt and WBjr seemed to be fully engaged to the Classic. Not sure if that's what you're referring to.

The instructions that came with the WBjr said to refer to the main Manual for total reset but I looked there and couldn't find help on that. Anyway, funny thing-- the AHs seem to be finding their
way back to the 400AH level. They crept up all day and are now reading 395. I did set my efficiency down to where you suggested (just now) so maybe that will help. It might also help keep the battery SoC reading at 100%. I guess we'll see. Today was pretty warm here -- the batteries got up to 23.7 C . I would have no idea how that might affect the readings though, tbh.

I'm not sure if I've seen the Knowledge base. I will find it and read up. 

Thanks VERY much for your input Larry! 

Lisa
6 300w monocrystalline Renogy panels  wired 3s2p
Midnite Classic 150 CC  w/Whizbang Jr
4 AGM Renogy 12v 200 amp batteries  wired 2s2p (so bank is 24v 400ah)
Aims 3000w Inverter (not an inverter-charger)
Aims 24v battery charger

ClassicCrazy

here is the knowledge base
No exact direct link to it - not sure why not but you will see it listed here
http://www.midnitehelp.com/

Midnite Solar youtube videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/MidNiteSolar/videos

Larry
system 1
Classic 150 , 5s3p  Kyocera 135watt , 12s Soneil 2v 540amp lead crystal for 24v pack , Outback 3524 inverter
system 2
 5s 135w Kyocero , 3s3p 270w Kyocera  to Classic 150 ,   8s Kyocera 225w to Hawkes Bay Jakiper 48v 15kwh LiFePO4 , Outback VFX 3648 inverter
system 3
KID / Brat portable

Vic

Hi Lisa,

The Remaining Ah reading will be reduced from  100% (400 Ah),  if the battery temperature is below the Reference temperature (usually 25 degrees C).

Here is how to Reset Net Ah:

The Net Ah and SOC can be reset  Manually from the Classic MNGP front panel.   Push the left small round button on the display (IIRC,  this is the Status Button),  about four times (from the Main Status page)  --  this takes you to the WbJr Status screen.  Press the Left Soft button (square one,  upper left).  This takes you to the Net Ah screen.  Hold down the left Arrow button,  while pressing Enter.  (it may take a second or three,  but,)  This should reset the Net Ah to 0,  and the SOC to 100%.

Also,  long ago,  IIRC,  you mentioned that the Classic Battery Temp Sensor (BTS),   was suspended near a battery (or similar).   If this BTS has not been attached to a battery,   please do so now.   Normally the BTS would be stuck about midway down the side of one battery,  in the inside center of the battery bank. Having the Classic able to do its best job possible in measuring the actual battery temperature,  is important,  especially with AGM batteries (which are very sensitive to accurate charge voltages).

Later,  Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

Lisa234

#52
Hi Vic, thanks for weighing in!

Yes I do have the reference temp set at 25 deg C. Sensor is right on the battery now.  So, the charge cycle happened about an hour ago and AHs were at 385. Seems awfully low. But as with yesterday the number seems to be on it's way up. Now it's 386. Yesterday it got to 395 by the afternoon, and the battery was at 23.7 C.  (I have that temp compensation setting at 1%).

As to clearing the daily net amps, yes, I was able to do that but the problem was, I couldn't clear the negative AH and positive AH history.  Well, until just a few minutes ago! After a lot of searching I finally discovered how! 

To reset the entire cumulative amp hour history you have to go to the Logs window, press enter and when the logs window shows up press ENTER again and make sure you press it hard.  A "Clear Log: UP/DOWN chooses" selection will appear and then you  have to press the UP arrow to bring each selection out one after the other. For me the UP arrow button had to be pressed repeatedly till I got to selection 7 which read:  Clear entire NEG AMP history.  And then I pressed enter.  And that did it!!!   ;D

(Anyway, I wanted to write that out so that someone searching this topic could see it.)

So everything seems okay now except the AHs reading seems low to me. My Renogy monitor always showed the battery bank at 400 AHs when Float was reached in the morning.  So.... Not that I don't like the WBjr waaaaay better...  I definitely do, but I need to understand it.
6 300w monocrystalline Renogy panels  wired 3s2p
Midnite Classic 150 CC  w/Whizbang Jr
4 AGM Renogy 12v 200 amp batteries  wired 2s2p (so bank is 24v 400ah)
Aims 3000w Inverter (not an inverter-charger)
Aims 24v battery charger

Vic

Hi Lisa,  OK on the Reset that you wanted to do  …

Forget if the Renogy monitor had a BTS,   but if it did not,   then this could be the difference twix the Classic and it.

With AGMs,   (because the actual SGs cannot be directly measured),   SOC readings can be more important than for Flooded batteries.

BUT,   any SOC readings on any practical monitoring device are just approximations,   as there are SO many variables that our monitors cannot/do not take into account. The largest of which is the Peukert  effect.   This is where the amount of Remaining Ah,   and therefore SOC will vary,   based on the (current) Rate at which the battery was discharged,  on average.   There are many other factors,   SO,   IMO,   SOC readings may not be too accurate.

Have asked Renogy several additional Tech questions,   to which they have not yet responded.  One of which was for info on Resting battery voltage vs SOC,   and temperature.  This could help you better-determine the actual SOC of your batteries.

Later,   sounds like you continue to get your system dialed-in. Good work  !!
Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

Lisa234

Thanks Vic.  What about checking the individual batteries with a multimeter?  Do you guys ever do that and can that be useful?  I do check mine all the time, although, I've read that the only proper time to do so is after the batteries have been at rest for several hours. But I don't see why checking them directly anytime you like isn't helpful...?

Oh, btw, I think I do have the latest firmware, updated 2/06/18.

Anyway, happy memorial day everyone. Hope you're all seeing incredible weather as we are in the bay area today. 

Lisa
6 300w monocrystalline Renogy panels  wired 3s2p
Midnite Classic 150 CC  w/Whizbang Jr
4 AGM Renogy 12v 200 amp batteries  wired 2s2p (so bank is 24v 400ah)
Aims 3000w Inverter (not an inverter-charger)
Aims 24v battery charger

Vic

Hi Lisa,

It is good that you are checking individual battery voltages.

With parallel strings,   things can get a bit more complex.  As an example,   if one string has a higher SOC  than the other   (which would mean that the higher SOC string would have a higher string voltage,  were it not for the other string),   so the higher SOC string begins charging the lower SOC string,  when there is no other charge source.   This will reach equilibrium over time.   A long Absorb time,   on occasion,  can help bring each string,   and each battery into closer balance.  This is what some AGM manufacturers call an EQ charge on this type of battery.


When trying to Rest a battery to determine its SOC,   a customary Rest period is about 12 hours.   And  in systems with parallel battery strings,  one would really want to separate the connection that parallels each string.  Early in this Thread,   that was where the suggestion of possibly having a battery switch that would allow separating strings,   resting one to determine its SOC,   then,  resting the other within a day or so. This would allow determining the actual SOC of each string,  and each battery in a string.   This would require data from Renogy for the battery voltage vs SOC,   and,  ideally the temperature compensation factor of this Resting voltage   ...

Your Ah Efficiency setting of 94%,   is probably a good place to start for AGM batteries,   which are considerably more efficient for charging than are Flooded batteries.

Since your system is for Grid backup,   and it appears that you are not discharging the batteries very deeply,   that you might be able to avoid recharging the batteries every day.  The Classic has the ability to Skip Days,   between full recharges.

Some backup systems with AGMs  spend almost all of their time at Float voltage.

For best results,  you would probably want to consult Renogy,   about just what they recommend for battery charging,   given the way that you are using them.

We are located in San Joaquin County,   at about 3,000 Ft,   nominal elevation.   It will get warm in the next few days,   but,  we have had a very nice Spring,   this year.

FWIW,    Enjoy the WX,    Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

Lisa234

#56
Okay good news!  So this issue with the Battery AHs reading much too low was basically what Vic had suggested (I think Larry had also suggested it), a battery temp issue.  Vic you had asked me if my sensor was adhered to the side of the battery and I said that it was stuck onto the battery* but actually it was being pinned down by one of the cables to the top of a battery. So this afternoon, when I went to actually tape it on properly I noted that the AHs were still not quite at 400. When I took hold of the sensor, just holding it in my hand for a couple of seconds caused the AH Status display to go instantly to 415 AHs!  Wow.  So I guess I must possess super powers?
Ha ha, so I taped it nice and snug with gaffers tape to the side of one of the batteries and in about 2 minutes the Status window read ~~ 400 AHs.  ~~~ ;D ;D ;D

What a surprise, operator error strikes again...   :o
6 300w monocrystalline Renogy panels  wired 3s2p
Midnite Classic 150 CC  w/Whizbang Jr
4 AGM Renogy 12v 200 amp batteries  wired 2s2p (so bank is 24v 400ah)
Aims 3000w Inverter (not an inverter-charger)
Aims 24v battery charger

Vic

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for the update.   Great that you moved the BTS,   and that things now,  are a bit more predictable.

Am still awaiting info from Renogy,   regarding rested battery voltage vs SOC   â€¦   been a week,   but hope that they will provide this info.

Have fun,  keep cool,   Thanks,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!

Lisa234

Thanks Vic. I thought about what you said regarding daily re-charging and I agree that in my case re-charging every day is probably excessive. I think I'll set it to skip 3 days -- I've had End Amps set on 4 and Absorb was only coming on for about 2 seconds.  Last night I set it to skip today and it's been Floating with a nice load on it at 100% SoC all day. Everything seems to be perfect perfect freaking perfect now!

Wow, when I first came onto this forum 18 days ago I didn't have any clue how the MC worked. I wasn't even sure what it was, ha ha. I've learned A LOT!

Lisa
6 300w monocrystalline Renogy panels  wired 3s2p
Midnite Classic 150 CC  w/Whizbang Jr
4 AGM Renogy 12v 200 amp batteries  wired 2s2p (so bank is 24v 400ah)
Aims 3000w Inverter (not an inverter-charger)
Aims 24v battery charger

Vic

Hi Lisa,

Renogy Tech did send the curves of SOC vs AGM battery cell voltage.   Seems to lack the definition of the rest period,   but probably was a 6 hour or more rest.   See attachment.   Of course just multiply by the 12 Cells that you have in your 24 V battery bank.

Have seen this exact graph for AGMs,  but it was from another battery manufacturer.  This graph was not on the datasheet that was downloaded from the Renogy site (even though,  their e-mail stated that it WAS in that data sheet …),   but assume that it is correct for your batteries.

If your batteries were fully-rested,  when you measured your morning voltages,  would guess that at that time your batteries were about 95-ish percent of full-charge.

Later,   Vic
Off Grid - Sys 1: 2ea SW+ 5548, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH, 5.25 KW PV, Classic 150,WB, Beta Barcelona, Beta KID
Sys 2: SW+ 5548s, 4KS25s, 5.88 KW PV, 2 ea. Classic 150, WB, HB CC-needs remote Monitoring/Control, site=remote.
 MN Bkrs/Bxs/Combiners. Thanks MN for Great Products/Svc/Support&This Forum!!