New Off Grid Inverter Charger

Started by nigel, June 15, 2012, 11:17:27 AM

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nigel

Im not aware of Midnite considering a unit but it would appear to be a logical step, whether now is the time to spend heavy on R&D
is questionable ? but I thought there is no harm in allowing people to air views. Im an Outback Inverter Charger Fan 95% of all my Inv Chg sales or  installs are OB . So there may be some cross over on my wish list.

Firstly Must be a Bug Free Case design, leads to longer life less warranty claims .
On site serviceable. modular repair boards.
3 Wire Gen Start. (Could be a plug in module upgrade to keep base units cost down)
Easy Internet - Lan Conection again could be a plug in module.
Allowing a PC to replace the display like upcoming Classic Lite
PFC Charging.
If a research stage is penned for the future maybe a questionnaire for members would be benifical.

Nigel


mike90045

Gee, if H bridge, then it's 85% of the way to being an inverter too !

if it had user selectable 120 or 240 output taps, and a fine tune adj for the Freq Xtal, to keep the off-grid clocks straight.......    Sort of a clone of the generator support part of the XW inverters with their nice PF chargers....
http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar

Classic 200| 2Kw PV, 160Voc | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph )| Listeroid 6/1, st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | midnight ePanel & 4 SPDs | 48V, 800A NiFe battery bank | MS-TS-MPPT60 w/3Kw PV

Robin

We have been working on an inverter design for many years. It has not been a large priority, but that is about to change. We still have a long ways to go though. Selectable 120/240 taps are not simple. It would complicate the product to no end, so I do not think this will happen. 50/60Hz selection is a possibility though. Hmmmm. if we made a 240VAC 60Hz unit, it wouldn't be too much trouble to also allow 230VAC 50Hz operation. Going from 120 to 240 is a lot more than just adding a tap. Think about charging and stacking. Gets messy real quick.
PFC charger would be a must.
Generator support would also be a must. (not easy though).
Three wire start is something we did at Trace on the SW inverter. Guess what most of our issues were? Three wire start generators! That is why we decided to do only two wire start at Outack. My feelings are that three wire start generators are portable units that have wheels and handles. I HATE generators with wheels and handles. They are not intended for unattended operation. They are also not intended for remote starting. They were designed for the operator to be there turning a key until the engine starts. I do not think we will be adding this as part of the inverter. Like Nigel said, possibly a plug in attachment. Internet is a good thing to add. PC for the display on an inverter is OK too. Don't know for sure on that one, but it may make sense. We would also need something like the display on the Classic. Maybe it will be the display on the Classic. That little device is very powerful.
Repairable and replaceable boards would probably happen. I designed the OutBack inverter to do that and it was the right decision. No reason to change on a new unit. We will be starting with a small inverter. A large 4 to 5KW inverter will take more time.
Robin Gudgel

nigel

A valid point on the 3 wire generator start system. Ive fitted 2 wire systems to mine and other large generators with the manufacturers
built in auto start (two wires for off or on)
They are expensive additions to the generators over all cost but then they do interface and monitor a lot of parameters.
With hindsight of your post, and my professional choice of not selling  generators for installs I can see why you made this decision.

Only three things are certain with generators !
They cost a lot of money to buy
They cost a lot of money to run
They cost a lot of money to repair. 

Nigel

Westbranch

If possible it would be great to make the charger a bit more flexible ie to handle lower AGM batt charging V limits and be in the 50A range and invert in the 2000W range, eh? piece of cake he says...
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

boB

Quote from: Westbranch on June 27, 2012, 12:25:54 AM
If possible it would be great to make the charger a bit more flexible ie to handle lower AGM batt charging V limits and be in the 50A range and invert in the 2000W range, eh? piece of cake he says...


Yes and don't forget to charge them  for a piece of inverter cake !



K7IQ 🌛  He/She/Me

vtmaps

Quote from: Robin on June 23, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
We have been working on an inverter design
<snip>
PFC charger would be a must.
<snip>
I designed the OutBack inverter
Robin, I'm curious... why did you not make PFC charger on the Outback?  --vtMaps

boB

Quote from: vtmaps on June 27, 2012, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Robin on June 23, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
We have been working on an inverter design
<snip>
PFC charger would be a must.
<snip>
I designed the OutBack inverter
Robin, I'm curious... why did you not make PFC charger on the Outback?  --vtMaps

That wasn't Robin's decision.  It was the engineer's.

We would have preferred for it to be PFC.

boB



K7IQ 🌛  He/She/Me

cpm

Just a quiet voice from out here in the ether,

three wire start is a *bad* (fsvo bad) idea. And that's a period at the end of the declarative statement.

Folks who are so inclined, can kludge up their own bad idea three wire start from a two wire start if they MUST run
a portable genset as if it were a proper unattended genset, another less-than-optimal idea.

wheels and handles are handy for that size genset, because you can wheel it over to the neighbors and run their fridge/freezer for
an hour or so every now and again, very handy. But they are not continuous duty back up and never were intended to be such.
Folks insisting that manufacturers integrate stuff that isn't meant to be integrated, , , , errr, , , okay. nuff said. I know it's a popular
idea. Kinda like push button windows in cars. :)


unicornio

awesome thread! ... hoping you come back for years to do it! ... an good inverter/charger (another good inverter/charger) can be something  strategic for midnite, so I encourage you! ...;-)
la energia solar no es una energia alternativa: es la energia.   Taller Ecologico "Los Unicornios" - - monitor solar on-line

ChrisOlson

Quote from: Robin on June 23, 2012, 11:36:15 PM
My feelings are that three wire start generators are portable units that have wheels and handles.

Ummm.... no.  There's a lot of really nice diesel gensets out there that are three-wire start and require a Glow/Stop relay because they don't have a built-in controller on the genset.  Failure to do three-wire support will only be as infuriating as it has been with the Outback stuff and having to buy a $450 Atkinson controller.  It's only one little tiny extra relay to provide three-wire vs two, along with some additional programming to operate it.

Trace/Xantrex has always been the Gold Standard when it comes to being able to support virtually any generator for auto-start right out of the box - at way less money than it costs if a person has an Outback system.

Sure - Outback always recommended the GSCM-Mini (which is cheaper than the Real Deal).  But the Mini is a joke - basically a starting battery killer and starter drive wrecker with its default 20 second crank time.

There's several reasons the XW pretty much kicks the FX-series' butt every way from Sunday.
--
Chris

unicornio

#11
I think the automatic starting system with three wires is outdated, although it is still used today, which is being manufactured now is the remote start with only two wires ...

I believe that the manufacturer of an inverter perfectly fulfills its function with a simple relay contact to start the genset.   the complete maneuver to starting a diesel generator is very complicated and varies greatly from one to another genset, and is very difficult for an inverter manufacturer sells a system that fits all ...

for that, there are many equipment manufacturers that sell very cheap, (as deepsea electronics), and complete contol, which makes fully configurable modules to start any generator and make complete control of the maneuver and the protections needed ...

but only this is necessary if the genset itself not includes its own controller, which are now the most ...
la energia solar no es una energia alternativa: es la energia.   Taller Ecologico "Los Unicornios" - - monitor solar on-line

Surfpath

Hi (adding to the inverter discussion),
I'm probably representative of the "plug and play" customer who is unlikely to run to the nearest volt-meter when the lights dim.  But here's my thought....

Over the last year after reading countless forum & blog entries, what seems missing in the off-grid market is a relatively small, simple unvented puresine inverter that is just large enough to start a fridge.  Say 1,800-2000 watts peak.  The Suresine300 is a good example of what I mean, but something larger that would capture the small house/cabin crowd that need a little more 'juice'.

I'm surprised the MStar folks haven't come up with that already.

2 cents.
SP   
Outback Flexpower Panel (FM80, VFX3048E), 2750 watts PV (4 series of 3 panels each), Midnite MNPV4 combiner, 48v Trojan RE-B batteries (370 amp hrs).

boB

Quote from: unicornio on October 24, 2012, 06:16:42 AM
I think the automatic starting system with three wires is outdated, although it is still used today, which is being manufactured now is the remote start with only two wires ...

I believe that the manufacturer of an inverter perfectly fulfills its function with a simple relay contact to start the genset.   the complete maneuver to starting a diesel generator is very complicated and varies greatly from one to another genset, and is very difficult for an inverter manufacturer sells a system that fits all ...

for that, there are many equipment manufacturers that sell very cheap, (as deepsea electronics), and complete contol, which makes fully configurable modules to start any generator and make complete control of the maneuver and the protections needed ...

but only this is necessary if the genset itself not includes its own controller, which are now the most ...


Maybe something like the Magnum MMS series of inverter/chargers ??

http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MMSseries.htm



K7IQ 🌛  He/She/Me

onanparts

We want Midnite Lites! 8)

OK, I want a Midnite Lite! What is it? A 500W TSW 120V inverter/charger. Stackable of course! Right now I'm using a VFX 3524 to power the electric blanket at nite when the grid fails here in the city at my small condo mancave. 60W load....OK, + a few other "Lite" loads like the TV, PC etc. All total under 500W. I know, OVERKILL, but it's a spare and it may as well get some use now and then.

Long term grid failure is rare in the city here and running a genny is not really an option even short term. I'll keep using the VFX until boBin comes up with some "Midnite Lites"  :) The Magnum MMS looks good but the next inverter I get will be made by MS, no exceptions! So here I sit patiently waiting........ ;D





I got the deluxe kit, it had a solar cell and a meter.

Midnite B17-10. 50kW Cont. 150kW Surge... Me/Myself/And/I