New Off Grid Inverter Charger

Started by nigel, June 15, 2012, 11:17:27 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

phonetic

Its in the DNA of Midnite solar..to produce a Inverter Charger.
North West Pacific is the epicenter of where Inverter Chargers are born   ;D
Home:
3.04kW Grid Tie.
Weekender:
6.08kW Off Grid. DC & AC coupled
32 of 190W (12+12 Array DC) (8 Array AC)
Midnite Classic 150 & Classic Lite 150
1.5KW AC coupled Grid Inverter
8 of 600 amp hour Surrette S600 flooded cell battery bank 24 volt 1200 amphour
Outback VFX3024E Inverter Charger, Mate 2.

boB

Quote from: onanparts on November 28, 2012, 03:23:37 AM
We want Midnite Lites! 8)

OK, I want a Midnite Lite! What is it? A 500W TSW 120V inverter/charger. Stackable of course! Right now I'm using a VFX 3524 to power the electric blanket at nite when the grid fails here in the city at my small condo mancave. 60W load....OK, + a few other "Lite" loads like the TV, PC etc. All total under 500W. I know, OVERKILL, but it's a spare and it may as well get some use now and then.

Long term grid failure is rare in the city here and running a genny is not really an option even short term. I'll keep using the VFX until boBin comes up with some "Midnite Lites"  :) The Magnum MMS looks good but the next inverter I get will be made by MS, no exceptions! So here I sit patiently waiting........ ;D


Until then, have you tried heavier blankets ??


K7IQ 🌛  He/She/Me

Westbranch

I think we should call it the Inver-Lite and
it could be modulized (?) so that if Comm's are wanted , add them, or use the Local App (modified)
if is the prime mover it is ROBUST,  as they say about a good wine (even if it is called Lite) and
beefy enough to run a fridge, 600W min? never mind that electric blanket...
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

TomW

@westbranch;

Yes, yes and of course.

Modular, rugged, tightly restrained magic smoke, More communication options than a class room  full of teenage girls. Stackable, multiple input voltage capable.

And, of course, less cost than a Ferrari.

I could go on but perfection is not achieved when nothing more can be added but rather when nothing more can be removed and accomplish the goals.


And the monkey clicks the button..

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

onanparts

Quote from: boB on November 29, 2012, 05:16:04 PM
Quote from: onanparts on November 28, 2012, 03:23:37 AM
We want Midnite Lites! 8)

OK, I want a Midnite Lite! What is it? A 500W TSW 120V inverter/charger. Stackable of course! Right now I'm using a VFX 3524 to power the electric blanket at nite when the grid fails here in the city at my small condo mancave. 60W load....OK, + a few other "Lite" loads like the TV, PC etc. All total under 500W. I know, OVERKILL, but it's a spare and it may as well get some use now and then.

Long term grid failure is rare in the city here and running a genny is not really an option even short term. I'll keep using the VFX until boBin comes up with some "Midnite Lites"  :) The Magnum MMS looks good but the next inverter I get will be made by MS, no exceptions! So here I sit patiently waiting........ ;D


Until then, have you tried heavier blankets ??


Yes I did. But when I tried flashing a custom ROM it said "Go to jail, Go directly to Jail, Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.00 :( Rooting an electric blanket is a pain even with a miniSDK.....


back to the original story...that 500W Midnite Lite should have room in the box to add a second 500W module. Now the refridgeadeezer can join in the fun. Could be used series or parallel. Not much need for 240VAC@1KW around here in the US but them thar foreign country's with lots of small 240VAC 50Hz appliances would be happy.

But when you add a second Midnite Lite with dual modules.... :) Is auto sensing input asking too much? 12V-48V.



I got the deluxe kit, it had a solar cell and a meter.

Midnite B17-10. 50kW Cont. 150kW Surge... Me/Myself/And/I

nigel

#20
Hmmm 500 watt 1000 watt inverter charger........very small market place IMHO.
In 3 years Ive sold one MS Suresine  300w inverter (emergency get me by purchase)
95% of my sales on Off Grid installs are OB 3 Kw inverters across Spain
Online sales across Europe very similar ! The next 3% are OB 6Kw systems
 
I currently run a OB VFX3048E in a 3 double Bed House, all lifes luxurys Big Tv,s & Air Con heating and cooling . So  3 Kw if managed correctly covers every thing easily. This years generator fuel bill is looking around $120 plus we pay a lot more for our gas per gallon than you guys do !!!

The cost difference between a 2KW OB FX  and a 3 KW VFX is about 8 to 10% retail, for a 50% power increase. Thats a eye opener !  :o

I suspect MNS want to cover the largest market with there first inverter! So close to  3 Kw is my suggested choice in EU form of  230v @ 50Hz .
Outback has a good strong reputation over here and rightly so, extremely reliable, field servicable  with minimum down time when
things go wrong.(very few and far between )  Thats why I like them !!!!  If I had one or 2 bugs to say about OB  it would be the Mate Menu System (2 series) is not end user friendly,  and the plastic mount for the surface mate is a joke, consider like Magnum do a very cut down version of the digital display which lets the end user have minimum JEEP functions that  they need. It can be a full Blown controller with a locked out JEEP option for the end client

Im soon to go to a SMA 5 Kw inverter charger not because I need the extra power but so that I can move to 2 Classics with a proper
interface with my complete system

The only advantage i can see initially of the extra 2Kw is I can leave the aircon full power on when I make a expresso with my 1800 watt coffee machine. Not the biggest chore in the world . Plus I can use my mig welder at full power  :o 

TomW

Quote from: nigel on December 08, 2012, 04:33:16 PM
Hmmm 500 watt 1000 watt inverter charger........very small market place IMHO.

Nigel;

That is where the "modular" bit I mentioned comes in. One "master" unit and as many power modules as you need. If your needs change, you add more power modules. Be really neat if you could stack or parallel the power modules for flexibility too. It provides a bit of redundancy, as well.

Just my wild off the wall out of left field thought. And as long as we are dreaming.  :o

Lots of folks, myself included, start small and grow a system, usually by replacing the first inverter.

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

nigel

#22
Tom I agree modular is good, but if a 3 kw machine is 10% more expensive that  a 2 kw machine, my sales patter is made pretty easy.
Linking 2 OB units is not cheap you need a Mate and a Hub. Ok  so I know its been around a while and newer systems need less kit for modular use like the Classic , but I suspect the most of  that extra 50% power that a VFX has over an FX is more down to ventalation and cooling and maybe a slighly larger transformer  than electronics. The price difference seems to suggest it ?

Also I was really excited when OB launched the baby GFX 1400 w @ 24 and 48v 1300 w @ 12v its very competitive price against the EU competitors watts wise  for € (euros) but Ive sold 2 in 12 months against 40+ VFX units and several FP1 3kw systems  and a couple  of FP2 6kw systems .  By the way its about 25% cheaper than a VFX with less than 50% output and charger  capability ! 
I suspect that its failure to catch on in the market place  is for its relative power delivery you need to spend 25% more  on a Mate to fully utilise its ample  capabilities !

I will add that my main customer base is people buying off grid properties and land and are usually coming  from a on grid former home and except that they have to make compromise to there former on grid life..........but if 3kw of power reduces there sacrifices greatly for probably  less that 2% of the over all install cost...batteries,turbines, solar.... then it is never going to be an issue. But I appreciate my demographic is not a universal fit, but its where Im seeing increasing sales in bear markets across the EU at least.   

The 500w to a 1000 watt inverter charger market is a wash with cheap throw away products most with seriously poor charging capabilities and programming limits, I cant see why MN would want to compete at this level , buying a 500w or 1000 watt Inv Chg with ability to add modules slot in or plug in in an expanded case seems folly to me.

Also a final point where in the MN family product line up does a 500 watt or 1000 watt inverter charger marry up to the Classic 150 @ 96 amp MPPT  charge controller input capacity blend...blend..............blend   ??? it just doesn,t.   I assume the new non LITE Inverter Charger from Midnite will be a perfect blend to its current product portfolio ? 

A well balanced off grid system design thus  marries loads to battery capacity.. renewable input capacity ... generator input capacity and at present a 500 w or 1000w inverter charger is not a family member IMHO !

Robin

Nigel, Yes we are developing a series of 500 watt inverters. We do not plan on these being a product for your market though. That would be something much larger. We want to get the bugs out of the design at this lower power level. The 500 watt battery based inverter matches the other two inverters also under development that create a "guys toy". I'm not sure we have disclosed the whole project yet? The inverter will be stackable using a simple phone cable and it will have PFC charging and two inputs and grid tie and communications, but it will not be capable of 12,24 and 48V selectable operation. That is too much of a compromise. We certainly could do a 120/240 50/60Hz switchable version though, but that would require a lot of thought and engineering. It is not a bad idea though. Maybe second generation? I do not know what compromises would result from such an animal. Their ain't no free lunch. It would cost something and would be more complicated. The compromises may not be that bad depending on how smart we are. Some of our engineers really enjoy beating their head against the wall to solve tough problems. This would be one of them.
The real off-grid/grid tie inverter that I envision would be modular if we can make that affordable. The affordable thing is a big "if".
We would like to make a mainframe that would accept multiple plug in modules. Each module would be around 2000 to 3000 watts. The Mainframe box may be too expensive. I just do not know yet, but if we can figure out how to make it cheap enough, the modular concept has a lot of merit. Unfortunately everyone would be stuck with the overhead of a mainframe. I have not had much thought on this subject though as we are still just working on the electronics. Suffice it to say we will be incorporating pretty much every feature imaginable. I am not convinced about adding three wire start though as most of those generators have wheels and handles. Another way to spell wheels and handles is "telephone support with customers too cheap to buy a real generator where they want the inverter manufacturer to fix their stupid POS generator problems that won't work due to horrible regulation and such". There, now do you know how I feel about cheap generators?
We will have to research deisel generators. I do not know what they are up to these days. If we have to support three wire generator start, then we are opening up ourselves to the wheel and handle guys. We will do what the market requires of course, so even though I do not want to support 3 wire start, that doesn't mean we won't do it. We can always hang up if they say they bought the generator at Home Depot I guess?
No, not really, we wouldn't do that, but after having been in this business as long as I have, I know the types of questions people have regarding generators. We would probably need to charge another fifty to a hundred bucks on each inverter if we did a 3 wire generator start. How does that sound? I don't like it much myself.
Hey this is totally off topic, but I thought I would mention it. Bob came up with a way to make a real battery status monitor like the Magnum BMK, Outback FNDC and Trimetric. It would be pretty complicated to hook up. It would have exactly one wire! Oh yeah, it would also retail for $59. It would hook up to a 500 amp shunt and the Classic (with its one wire). If there is a bunch of interest in this, we should probably start a different thread. I do not know how to do that?
Robin Gudgel

niel

#24
robin,
i'm curious why the 500w rating on the inverter? that seems a tad low for most applications. i'd probably say 600-700w would cover most requested items that need to be run and allows headroom for some surge.

maybe i missed it mentioned, but i have to ask, what battery voltages are you going to set up the inverters for? if they are stackable you would probably want them all at 48v as the battery bank could get very large with high currents with paralleled batteries. at the same time it might be a pain to need 4 12v batteries though for just 1 inverter at 500w or even a few hundred watts higher as i proposed.

that battery monitor sounds very intriguing.

vtmaps

Quote from: Robin on December 08, 2012, 08:41:08 PM
Yes we are developing a series of 500 watt inverters.

I am looking to buy an inverter now (500 watts would be fine).  What I want to see is a very low no-load draw.   It will be a second inverter that is on 24/7 (I'm offgrid with outback vfx3524).  I only need the outback's power a few hours per week.

I like the specs on the Victron Phoenix inverter:  24 v DC, 800 watts pure sine wave, 5 watt no load draw (2 watts in search mode).

I would buy one today, but as far as I can tell they have outlets and are certified for marine use.  I want something (with a midnite logo) that I can hard wire to my ePanel.

--vtMaps

nigel

#26
Ive started a new topic for the Classic based battery Monitor.

On the Generator 2 Wire 3 Wire Start. In relation to Diesel generators over here which are fit for purpose ie skid mount or canopy covered
The auto start option ie two wire off-on is a upgrade choice on most manufacturers standard control panels .Doesnt matter if  your buying a Single Cylinder Aircooled Diesel like mine at 5kw. Or a 4 or 6 cylinder water cooled 25 kw unit  the price is the same around $600 to upgrade.

As these manufacturers AGS unit has enough channels to accommodate the various sensors fitted to the said  generator unit such as Oil Level, Oil Pressure  , Water Temp and so on it safely monitors the gen unit and can shunt it down if a problem occurrs.  Also I would imagine anyone fitting a non manufacture 3 wire start system with or without hooking up to all the gensets sensors  would probably invalidate the Genset manufactures warranty. Plus on a further note we are lucky enough to know a Mechanic who has the automotive diagnostic equipment who told us that all the latest ( 5 years or more) Diesel Generators made over here are fitted with the same system as cars and trucks so fault codes and servicing data can be read. We called him out for a Gesan 13kw Diesel with an intermittent start fault, he pluged in his automotive based system and immediately diagnose a faulty temp sensor, but also told us that this particular genset  had not been serviced since new by a authorized and trained technician. 

Back to the new inverter guess Ill be waiting a little longer for my main market  :'(

cpm

Just wanted to lend another voice to the '500w is fine by me' crowd.

I already have a bigger inverter, as do a lot of folks. There are plenty of large inverters out
there, but pretty much nothing in a true sine at this scale.

Vern Faulkner

Add me to the list of folks who would want something like this. I've looked at the Suresine brand, and I'm just not quite comfy with 300 watts.

onanparts

500W Continuous with 1KW surge for 5 minutes.... 8)
I got the deluxe kit, it had a solar cell and a meter.

Midnite B17-10. 50kW Cont. 150kW Surge... Me/Myself/And/I