Lithium battery charge profiles

Started by offgridQLD, January 01, 2013, 12:54:07 AM

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cpm

Interesting,

Here, the only 500ah LiFePO4 I could find was $700 per cell, no BMS
or, I could buy a 12v (4cell) 500ah for $6K

in contrast, a pair of 435ah L16s would be a fraction of that. maybe 1/8th or so.
I think our lead acid costs are similar, Li, not so much. still very spendy here.

Unless someone here (in the US) knows something very interesting. :)

thanks.

dgd

Quote from: mtdoc on January 14, 2013, 05:16:32 PM
Quote from: dgd on January 14, 2013, 04:09:43 PM

Although there can be no doubt the present Classic is easily the best mppt controller available (as was the MX60 in its day),  it may well reach limits that a firmware update just don't fix  :o

The current Classic is just over 2 yrs in production!.  It it still a baby. The advantage of upgradable firmware - I think would mean  its lifespan should be much longer than even the venerable MX60!

Oh please I hope that is not the case. Venerable as the Classic is it already is a somewhat 'dated' design. Two years may be baby time in the renewable energy business BUT not in the electronic design/Computing or software development areas.
That is where I suggest redesign needs doing.  The Classis is damm good at what it does with mppt but is woefully lacking in world/user interfacing. I'm not saying the current Classic is defective and I agree its the best available now but...

Quote

I imagine there will be more small hardware tweaks but total redesign?  !!!   I'd prefer the good folks at MN concentrate their hardware development efforts on their current projects - "The Kid" ,  Inverters, etc.
That's probably economic reality hopefully made easier now that Outback have shot themselves in the foot with their exit from USA.
Quote
Besides - my 3rd classic is still in it's box! ;)

Shame on you  :)  but maybe not such a bad idea.. Security,redundancy,lightening strike insurance,..

Dgd
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

phonetic

Im planning in 6-7 years time when the flooded battery bank get retired.. LiFePo4 would be a ideal replacement.. by then should get 10WHr per $1 ..with the dropping pricing ?
Home:
3.04kW Grid Tie.
Weekender:
6.08kW Off Grid. DC & AC coupled
32 of 190W (12+12 Array DC) (8 Array AC)
Midnite Classic 150 & Classic Lite 150
1.5KW AC coupled Grid Inverter
8 of 600 amp hour Surrette S600 flooded cell battery bank 24 volt 1200 amphour
Outback VFX3024E Inverter Charger, Mate 2.

mtdoc

Quote from: dgd on January 14, 2013, 06:40:04 PM
Venerable as the Classic is it already is a somewhat 'dated' design.
:o

QuoteTwo years may be baby time in the renewable energy business BUT not in the electronic design/Computing or software development areas.
Exactly  ;)

Quote

Security,redundancy,lightening strike insurance,..


No, microhydro  - hopefully to be added this summer...
Array 1: Sanyo HIT225 X 8 on Wattsun tracker. Array 2: Evergreen ES-E-225 X 12 on shed roof. Midnite e-panel with Outback GVFX3648, FNDC and Classic 150 X 2. 436 AH AGMs. Honda eu2000i X 2.

cpm

Just in case anyone was following this thread, on the news of 'affordable' LiFePO4,

i did find something, because it just seemed too good to be true,

I found this battery:

http://www.balqon.com/store.php#!/~/product/category=3262346&id=13936727

Balquon High Capacity - Lithium Battery 12 Volt, 700 Ah (LiFePO chemistry)
$2 640.00

I've got an outback gtfx 3524 (sadly) still sitting in it's box along side my classic 250, also sadly sitting in it's box,
a pair of these would fit me nicely, if I can actually get them. There's the rub, eh?
And yeah, this would be cost-competitive with lead acid. A bit more $$, but should last much longer, and less hassle.
I'm using smaller LiFePO batteries for other stuff, and am very happy with them.

Westbranch

hi density power

Nominal Capacity  :700 AH
Operating Voltage:11.2V~16.0V
Weight:412 lbs +/-3 lbs
Dimensions:25.25"×11.75"×16.5"  ( that is similar to 2 x 2V of my 900ah AGM cells)

so 2.8 cubic feet weighs 412 pounds.  Who can lift that weight...alone?
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

cpm

well, the 412lb package is pretty daunting, true enough.

I recently installed my new soapstove woodstove by myself, and it
tipped the scales at ~700lbs. I honestly was worried while crossing the
floor with it on the way to the hearth.

:)

I think I could manage it, esp if I don't have to it again in my lifetime.

Westbranch

CPM, I speed read your post and missed the first 'h' in the last word.. ???..thought you almost went through the floor :'(   then I had to reread it  ::)
KID FW1811 560W >C&D 24V 900Ah AGM
CL150 29032 FW V.2126-NW2097-GP2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3Px4s 140W > 24V 900Ah AGM,
2 Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr, NetGr DS104Hub
Cotek ST1500 Inv  want a 24V  ROSIE Inverter
OmniCharge3024  Eu1/2/3000iGens
West Chilcotin 1680+W to come

dgd

Quote from: cpm on January 15, 2013, 07:40:21 PM

I've got an outback gtfx 3524 (sadly) still sitting in it's box along side my classic 250, also sadly sitting in it's box,
a pair of these would fit me nicely, if I can actually get them. There's the rub, eh?
And yeah, this would be cost-competitive with lead acid. A bit more $$, but should last much longer, and less hassle.
I'm using smaller LiFePO batteries for other stuff, and am very happy with them.

I just had the same issue, high capacity 700Ah and 1000Ah LiFePO cells are priced and advertised BUT will be a 4 month wait before any are available.
The only nice part of the wait is that the importer assures me the price will be significantly lower.

So I have obtained 8 by 200watt cells with BMS (for 24v), ordered a Classic 250 and four 230watt PVs. Just need to find a small Magnum Sine 230V inverter and then I can really test these batteries.  :P
Just thinking that if the Classic arrives soon then I can be in that exclusive Classic owners club who keep their Classic 'sitting in it's box'   ;D

dgd
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

Halfcrazy

Quote from: dgd on January 16, 2013, 12:39:01 AM

Just thinking that if the Classic arrives soon then I can be in that exclusive Classic owners club who keep their Classic 'sitting in it's box'   ;D

dgd

Come on guy's At least taker Her out of the box and hang her on the wall in the Living room or something? Maybe plug a wall wart into Battery in and have the Blinky LED's going for ambiance.  ::)

Ryan
Changing the way wind turbines operate one smoke filled box at a time

cpm

Quote
So I have obtained 8 by 200watt cells with BMS (for 24v), ordered a Classic 250 and four 230watt PVs. Just need to find a small Magnum Sine 230V inverter and then I can really test these batteries.

Interesting, where did you get them?

That outfit I posted claims to have 12 or so 1000ah cells in their clearance section, ready to ship. 45% below the regular price.
but there is no mention of the BMS for them.

Quote
Just thinking that if the Classic arrives soon then I can be in that exclusive Classic owners club who keep their Classic 'sitting in it's box'

Yeah, we need a 'sitting in box' registry.

Quote
Come on guy's At least taker Her out of the box and hang her on the wall in the Living room or something?

Don't imagine that it hasn't occurred to me already.. :)

TomW

Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 16, 2013, 06:35:34 AM

Come on guy's At least taker Her out of the box and hang her on the wall in the Living room or something? Maybe plug a wall wart into Battery in and have the Blinky LED's going for ambiance.  ::)

Ryan

I agree. The box is kind of sexy but the Classic itself is really cool looking. Like Ryan says, hook it to a walwart, set the LEDs to "obnoxious" and enjoy the show!  ;D

I would like to get one for my turbines but after this summers upgrades it will be awhile before that happens.

And now you evil people have me drooling over Lithium Batteries.  :(

This addiction never ends or is satisfied! 8)

Just from here.

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

dgd

#27
Quote from: TomW on January 16, 2013, 12:04:27 PM
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 16, 2013, 06:35:34 AM

Come on guy's At least taker Her out of the box and hang her on the wall in the Living room or something? Maybe plug a wall wart into Battery in and have the Blinky LED's going for ambiance.  ::)

Ryan

I agree. The box is kind of sexy but the Classic itself is really cool looking.
Her? sexy? I think you both might need to get out more often  :D

Quote
And now you evil people have me drooling over Lithium Batteries.  :(

This addiction never ends or is satisfied! 8)

The evil genius here is the Midnitesolar marketing dept. These end users so committed they buy Classics to 'keep in its box'  :o

dgd
Classic 250, 150,  20 140w, 6 250w PVs, 2Kw turbine, MN ac Clipper, Epanel/MNdc, Trace SW3024E (1997), Century 1050Ah 24V FLA (1999). Arduino power monitoring and web server.  Off grid since 4/2000
West Auckland, New Zealand

TomW

More blatant topic drift..

Ha, why would I want to get out more? I live exactly where I want, am well stocked with supplies, food, ammo and the like. Nobody bothers us, an advantage of having a large property with  a private shooting range out back.

@ 60 "Sexy" has a broad meaning for me.

Have you seen the Classic box graphics?

Tom
Do NOT mistake me for any kind of "expert".

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


24 Trina 310 watt modules, SMA SunnyBoy 7.7 KW Grid Tie inverter.

I thought that they were angels, but much to my surprise, We climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies

offgridQLD

#29
Sorry I started the thread then forgot about it  ::)

large format lofpo4 sells are available 400ah - 1000AH is common and easy to obtain. Even larger is available!

What you need to look at when comparing a Lifepo4 cell to a led acid is usable capacity. Given most of us only use 10 - 30% of our led acid battery's capacity our 1000AH led acid cell is effectively a 100 - 300AH cell . Yet you need large cells to cope with high C loads as led acids have terrible C rating.

400Ah of lithium will outperform 1330AH of lead in both, C rating, usable capacity, price, maintenance, cycle life and the big one charge efficacy! just think if you go away for a month on your cells rest at 50% soc (no ill effects with lithium if they sit around at less the 100% soc actually its healthy for them) oh the joy  ;)

my plan (when the led is dead) Is to replace 1330AH at 48v on paper 60kwh of flooded lead acid (That at the moment is subject to a 6kwh load 10%  DOD each day) and replace it with 400AH 48v 20kwh of lifpo4 with a 30% 24hr DOD each day to cover the same load.

In Australia 1330Ah at 48v of Exide 2v industrial flooded led acid cells the same as I have now cost roughly $15,000. The replacement 400ah - 48v lifpo4 pack including BMS and cell straps is roughly $10,000 and are available now.

A member of another local forum I post on just replaced his led acid with the same lifpo4's I'm considering and is very happy with them charging from a old outback charge controller with some adjustments to the charge settings.



Kurt





Off grid system: 48v 16x400ah Calb lithium, Pv array one  NE facing  24 x 165w 3960w, Array two NW facing 21 x 200w 4200w total PV 8200w. Two x Classic 150,  Selectronic PS1 6000w inverter charger, Kubota J108 8kw diesel generator.