Need help - batteries not reaching full charge - adding more

[Resthome]

Step #1 â€" Record ALL your current settings. Get your firmware in sync, update both the Classic and the MNGP firmware and do a VMM when turning the Classic back on after both updates are complete. Wait at least 2 minute after each update says it is finished before going to the next one.

Step #2 â€" Reset ALL your settings. If you want to know what they all do watch Ryan’s five video for the LA on the MN Web Page. And DISABLE LoMax in Tweaks.

Step #3 â€" Keep your Classic settings the same and just observe and record with the LA for a few days without any changes. Draw your batteries down over night and watch what happens the next clear sunny day. Record how low the Net Amps and SOC went from the night before. On a clear day watch how long it takes to get to absorb set point. Set Absorb time to 4 hours and watch the WB current rise to a peak as Bulk ends and drop while at absorb set point. When the WB amps stop dropping and stay the same record that value and how long it took to get there then set the End Amps to 1 Amp above that. The WBjr measures amps going into battery and doesn’t care about amps being used for loads.

Strap #4 â€" Repeat step #3 for a few days and record any changes to what you observed the previous day including weather conditions.

Step #5- Check the SG level on all battery cells and record after Classic has gone to Float.

To dial this in takes a lot of observing and recording while not making any changes. You’re getting close to understanding off grid solar and battery charging, it’s a long learning curve. Oblivious it’s better to do all this in the summer months when you have more days of sun and the temps are warmer. And yes as the days get warmer and the panels are hotter they will make less power.

[ClassicCrazy]

Step #1 â€" Record ALL your current settings. Get your firmware in sync, update both the Classic and the MNGP firmware and do a VMM when turning the Classic back on after both updates are complete. Wait at least 2 minute after each update says it is finished before going to the next one.

Step #2 â€" Reset ALL your settings. If you want to know what they all do watch Ryan’s five video for the LA on the MN Web Page. And DISABLE LoMax in Tweaks.

Step #3 â€" Keep your Classic settings the same and just observe and record with the LA for a few days without any changes. Draw your batteries down over night and watch what happens the next clear sunny day. Record how low the Net Amps and SOC went from the night before. On a clear day watch how long it takes to get to absorb set point. Set Absorb time to 4 hours and watch the WB current rise to a peak as Bulk ends and drop while at absorb set point. When the WB amps stop dropping and stay the same record that value and how long it took to get there then set the End Amps to 1 Amp above that. The WBjr measures amps going into battery and doesn’t care about amps being used for loads.

Strap #4 â€" Repeat step #3 for a few days and record any changes to what you observed the previous day including weather conditions.

Step #5- Check the SG level on all battery cells and record after Classic has gone to Float.

To dial this in takes a lot of observing and recording while not making any changes. You’re getting close to understanding off grid solar and battery charging, it’s a long learning curve. Oblivious it’s better to do all this in the summer months when you have more days of sun and the temps are warmer. And yes as the days get warmer and the panels are hotter they will make less power.

Good advice John - I wish I had it long time ago - would have saved me some trouble !
Only thing I wonder about is won't the system amps level off for awhile and then go even lower to stage where they are over charging the batteries ? How do you get the 1 amp above the lowest ?

Larry

[Resthome]

Step #1 â€" Record ALL your current settings. Get your firmware in sync, update both the Classic and the MNGP firmware and do a VMM when turning the Classic back on after both updates are complete. Wait at least 2 minute after each update says it is finished before going to the next one.

Step #2 â€" Reset ALL your settings. If you want to know what they all do watch Ryan’s five video for the LA on the MN Web Page. And DISABLE LoMax in Tweaks.

Step #3 â€" Keep your Classic settings the same and just observe and record with the LA for a few days without any changes. Draw your batteries down over night and watch what happens the next clear sunny day. Record how low the Net Amps and SOC went from the night before. On a clear day watch how long it takes to get to absorb set point. Set Absorb time to 4 hours and watch the WB current rise to a peak as Bulk ends and drop while at absorb set point. When the WB amps stop dropping and stay the same record that value and how long it took to get there then set the End Amps to 1 Amp above that. The WBjr measures amps going into battery and doesn’t care about amps being used for loads.

Strap #4 â€" Repeat step #3 for a few days and record any changes to what you observed the previous day including weather conditions.

Step #5- Check the SG level on all battery cells and record after Classic has gone to Float.

To dial this in takes a lot of observing and recording while not making any changes. You’re getting close to understanding off grid solar and battery charging, it’s a long learning curve. Oblivious it’s better to do all this in the summer months when you have more days of sun and the temps are warmer. And yes as the days get warmer and the panels are hotter they will make less power.

Good advice John - I wish I had it long time ago - would have saved me some trouble !
Only thing I wonder about is won't the system amps level off for awhile and then go even lower to stage where they are over charging the batteries ? How do you get the 1 amp above the lowest ?

Larry

See my graph elsewhere in the thread. Once the Amps roll off it stays about the same and when it is in Float it stays the same until a load comes on or the sun goes down. the reason for picking a value a little above it to assure it triggers the counter to go to Float. The System Amps (WBjr ) is a little noisy and bounces around maybe .5-1 Amp at time. Don't think there would be any battery overcharging as long as you have the correct set point voltage for Float. In Float you don't have hardly any amps goin into the Battery.

Another reason for me is from late June to October we running a Swamp cooler with a 12 VDC motor pulling about 19-20 amps and it's fed with water from the lake with a Sureflow water pump that draws about 10Amps when it kicks on and off you can see little spike in the WBjr readings. Depend on the date of the graph I posted it may or may not be there.

[robbertwilliams]

How about a link to a video for a dummies guide to the MNGP?  Anyone have one?  The more I played around with the MNGP today, I feel that the Whizbang Jr screen has nothing to do with ending amps.  I found that the ending amps coincided more with the screen prior, and specifically the left side under "in". 

Anyone have a detailed link to what EVERY VALUE given on the MNGP ACTUALLY represents/affects?

[Resthome]

How about a link to a video for a dummies guide to the MNGP?  Anyone have one?  The more I played around with the MNGP today, I feel that the Whizbang Jr screen has nothing to do with ending amps.  I found that the ending amps coincided more with the screen prior, and specifically the left side under "in". 

Anyone have a detailed link to what EVERY VALUE given on the MNGP ACTUALLY represents/affects?

Picture would be worth a thousand word of what screens you are referring to. I don't understand what screens you are referring to. If you hold the status button down before letting go it gives a short discription of what is coming on the next display. There are videos showing all different part of the menus. There is no ONE video for everything, it would be 4 hrs long. For the WBjr the manual describes the screen pertaining to it.

http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Whizbang_manual.pdf



For all MN documents http://www.midnitesolar.com/documentIndex.php

Look under the view video list. Be aware some of the video on the MNGP functions where made before the WBjr firmware was added to the Classic.  Along the way boB has posted in the early days many of the hidden button pushes that provide data not normally required by a normal user. An example is the NEW DAY that save the daily data to eprom so you can power off the Classic without losing a day's worth of data because idaily data is only save at 23:59. You will learn these over time. Apparently MN has now seen fit to hire a document control person and hopefully over time these documents will get updated. Good Luck with the learning curve.

This status screen show the amps going into the batteries with out the amps being used for loads.

[Vic]

Thanks John for posting that image from the manual.

That Instantaneous Current IS the current  that is flowing into the batteries.  This IS the current that is used by the Classic to determine when the set EA has been reached,   and Absorb needs to end.

On Status screens that precede the WBjr status screens,  the "IN",  on the left side  should be the power being produced ...  will have to go look at an MNGP on an operating Classic to see.  Neither the IN or current that is noted on the lower right of the MNGP are good indicators of the actual battery charge current.   The output current and the MNGP instantaneous current will be quite close to each other,  if there are NO loads on the system,   especially when the inverter is OFF.

FWIW,   Vic

[estragon]

I know that with WBjr the controller will end absorb at the earlier of >X time or <Y amps.  Can it tell if <Y amps is because batteries are full vs panels can't produce >Y amps (shading or clouds)?

[ClassicCrazy]

I know that with WBjr the controller will end absorb at the earlier of >X time or <Y amps.  Can it tell if <Y amps is because batteries are full vs panels can't produce >Y amps (shading or clouds)?

It has to be in absorb for it to stop charging at ending amps. If you had a cloud or shade the voltage would drop and it would go from Absorb back to Bulk so even though it went down in amps that would not be ending amps.  So yes it knows in that way.

Larry

[robbertwilliams]

No update:  Just been working the new set of batteries (discharging/charging).  I hope to take new SG readings in a few days when it warms up.  Then I plan to hook the two banks up together.  But I still haven't gotten an answer to this question...when the banks are paralleled, do I take the standard single bank EA and times it by 2?  So, right now my ending amps are at 3.8.  If I parallel, so two 370ah banks for a total of 740ah, do I make (a starting point but to be later changed by observation) EA 7.6?  Or since they are parallel, still 3.8?

Also, I looked into this battery isolation switch stuff.  In doing so I came across this video - kind of cool but I'd like to see what everyone has to say about this.

Video:
https://youtu.be/B4830QsybbM

Blue Seas Website - w/a little better description -
https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A

So, to implement this type of system in my scenario, I currently am using 4/0 cable - which would be kinda hard to work all this into a small area.  Would it hurt to down size the wiring for this type of setup?

[Vic]

Hello robbertwilliams,

YES,  you would need to multiply the EA value for a single string of batteries,  by the number of strings of batteries in parallel.   Two parallel strings,   multiply the starting EA value by two.   This,  of course,   assumes that the battery charging current will be divided exactly equally between the two strings.   This equal division may not always be the case.

Using a battery switch to select between two strings can help one manage the use of two strings,   but,  one would be mindful that the EA setting would need to be changed when changing from charging a single string,  verses charging two strings in parallel,  in general.

Would suggest that  you try to maintain the largest cable size that you can manage,  when adding any battery switch,   as this switch addition may well add some cable length,   and therefore additional voltage drops.

Vic

[romakad]

Hi I have a problem with charging...  My 8 6 volt batteries the = 12 volts will go into absorb in the morning and charge to 100% but then as I use power throughout the day it goes down to 85% and doesn't charge until the next day.  How do I get me classic 200 to charge when I am using power throughout the day... can I force it t go to absorb?  I have 4 255 watt solar panels... and use only about 15 - 20 amps during the day... I have almost 900 amp hrs available.

[Vic]

Hello roma..,

OK,  so you are probably using 8 GC2 batteries,   wired as 4 strings of two batteries,  for 12 V?   Are your batteries Flooded?  Flooded batteries have easily-removed caps on top of the batteries.

Please give information about the PVs that you are using  --  manufacturer,  model number,   and how the PVs are wired  --  one series string of four,   ...   or (?).

Need info on your batteries - mfg and model number.

After Absorb is completed,  and the Classic goes to Float,  if there is sufficient PV power available,  the batteries State Of Charge (SOC) should be maintained during Float.   Any power above that which is needed to keep batteries fully charged will be supplied by the Classic,  unless there is not sufficient power available from the Classic.

When the Classic (CC) has been in Float,   and there is insufficient power to maintain the Float voltage,   the Classic will show Float - MPPT,   and you will notice that the battery voltage will begin to descend,   as the battery becomes more and more discharged.

In another Post,  you asked about Pg 61 in the Classic 2056 Manual  --  the settings in that section apply ONLY to the Classic Lite CCs.

You do NOT have a Classic 200 Lite,   right?
What are your settings for Absorb and Float?
If your batteries are Flooded,   what is your EQ voltage setting?
What  is the Absorb time setting?
Are you using the Battery Temperature Sensor attached on the side of one battery?
Are you using an Ending Amps setting?
What Firmware version is your Classic using?

It is not too common for people to use the Rebulk function of the Classic,  but,  if you wanted to do additional charge cycles in a single day,  the Rebulk voltage could be set to a voltage that is below the Float voltage setting,   and you could do additional charge cycles on the battery.   Generally this is not needed,   and can cause added wear on batteries (IMO).   Trying to Rebulk when the CC is in Float - MPPT will do nothing in the way of any additional battery recharging.

There will be additional questions about just how you have your series/parallel battery bank wired,  etc,   but enough for now.

Thanks for additional information.   Vic

[robbertwilliams]

Step #1 â€" Record ALL your current settings. Get your firmware in sync, update both the Classic and the MNGP firmware and do a VMM when turning the Classic back on after both updates are complete. Wait at least 2 minute after each update says it is finished before going to the next one.

Step #2 â€" Reset ALL your settings. If you want to know what they all do watch Ryan’s five video for the LA on the MN Web Page. And DISABLE LoMax in Tweaks.

Step #3 â€" Keep your Classic settings the same and just observe and record with the LA for a few days without any changes. Draw your batteries down over night and watch what happens the next clear sunny day. Record how low the Net Amps and SOC went from the night before. On a clear day watch how long it takes to get to absorb set point. Set Absorb time to 4 hours and watch the WB current rise to a peak as Bulk ends and drop while at absorb set point. When the WB amps stop dropping and stay the same record that value and how long it took to get there then set the End Amps to 1 Amp above that. The WBjr measures amps going into battery and doesn’t care about amps being used for loads.

Strap #4 â€" Repeat step #3 for a few days and record any changes to what you observed the previous day including weather conditions.

Step #5- Check the SG level on all battery cells and record after Classic has gone to Float.

To dial this in takes a lot of observing and recording while not making any changes. You’re getting close to understanding off grid solar and battery charging, it’s a long learning curve. Oblivious it’s better to do all this in the summer months when you have more days of sun and the temps are warmer. And yes as the days get warmer and the panels are hotter they will make less power.

So, if my WBJr levels off at 3.7 while in absorb, I should set my ending amps to 4.7?  That would be 1 amp above, or did you mean 1/10 of an amp above?

So, I've given up on waiting to do equalize with the panels...we're living here, and drawing a bank down at night, and then charging back up...blah blah blah.  So, I've just bitten the bullet and have done the equalize on both banks (individually - one had 1.5hrs via the PV panels, with an additional 1hr from the generator/charger on equalize -- while the other bank has just received 2hrs on generator/charger equalize). 

Question:  The old bank of batteries (which has received 2.5hrs of equalize time) had leveled off at 8.8amps (as observed via the WBJr).   The new bank of batteries (which has received 2hrs of equalize time) has leveled off to 6.7amps (as observed via the WBJr).  So, I want to connect these parallel.  Are these equalize ending amps of any significance?  Does this show the age of the older batteries?  Would the old bank benefit from more equalize time?

Also, if the end result is that the banks are of entirely different "vitals" and I parallel the banks, would I benefit to "mix" the banks (ie. take two from each bank and swap with the other bank)?

Looking to parallel these in the next couple days.  It's amazing how much power we take for granted.  Going off grid has made my real life experiences in public very different...I can't quite understand why we use so much.  I don't even have the mini-fridge plugged in and I'm waking to 75% SOC.  Currently, I'm running LED lights, TV for a few hours (energy star 52KWh/year), humidifier (air-o-swiss - 115w'ish'), occasionally an HRV (Heat recovery ventilator - 20 min/hr on low), and modem/routers/combox.  It's wild how much people in "real" homes are using every day.

[mike90045]

The old bank of batteries (which has received 2.5hrs of equalize time) had leveled off at 8.8amps (as observed via the WBJr).   The new bank of batteries (which has received 2hrs of equalize time) has leveled off to 6.7amps (as observed via the WBJr). 
So, I want to connect these parallel.

To connect batteries in parallel, you need to insure the VOLTAGE is identical.  Take the lowest voltage battery, and hook a charger to it, when it's voltage = other bank, at that moment, you connect them (with the marine battery switch on the wall)
If the banks voltages don't match, you will have one bank discharging into the other bank, without the benefit of a long jumper cable (ever seen a melted automotive jumper cable from a low battery to a high battery? ) to add some resistance into the system.

[Resthome]

Step #3 â€" Keep your Classic settings the same and just observe and record with the LA for a few days without any changes. Draw your batteries down over night and watch what happens the next clear sunny day. Record how low the Net Amps and SOC went from the night before. On a clear day watch how long it takes to get to absorb set point. Set Absorb time to 4 hours and watch the WB current rise to a peak as Bulk ends and drop while at absorb set point. When the WB amps stop dropping and stays the same record that value and how long it took to get there then set the End Amps to 1 Amp above that. The WBjr measures amps going into battery and doesn’t care about amps being used for loads.


To dial this in takes a lot of observing and recording while not making any changes. You’re getting close to understanding off grid solar and battery charging, it’s a long learning curve. Oblivious it’s better to do all this in the summer months when you have more days of sun and the temps are warmer. And yes as the days get warmer and the panels are hotter they will make less power.

So, if my WBJr levels off at 3.7 while in absorb, I should set my ending amps to 4.7?  That would be 1 amp above, or did you mean 1/10 of an amp above?

The reason I set my EA slightly higher is because if you look at the 2sec data from the LA for the WBjr you will see that there is a bit of noise in this reading and causes it to jump around a bit. To go to float from absorb at EA it has to stay at the set EA or below for a given period of time (don't recall what that is right now- maybe 30-90 sec?). If one reading jumps higher then the counter has to start all over again. On my system I see around .5 of noise. So I set the EA a little higher so it will always fall below EA setting for the required amount of time to trigger Float. 

As always your mileage may vary. So you would have to look and your data and see if and how munch the WBjr reading bounces around. You are going to have to export the data from the LA to see this. Don't believe you will see this looking at the MNGP.