A Forum run by Enthusiasts of MidNite Solar

Robin, just read your comment that the Beta Units should be in the mail soon, and though went to how you will want feedback.

Do you have a "Report Card" (spreadsheet?) for us to fill in electronically to give you guys some good feedback on how the Kids perform under our real life conditions?
Ie System specs, Charge specs, batt size/age, hrs of sunlight, output, float achieved, etc, ad nauseum...

Not Robin but.

I would say we should comment here as much as possible. I can make a new thread for BETA KID thoughts, Bugs and suggestions or something like that.

Ryan

Thanks Ryan, not trying to keep anything secret, no problem with posting,  just thought that some structure would help you guys sort things out if an anomaly crops up.

yes I agree. I will ask Bo to put together something. I think suggestions etc will good in the public's eye as it will stir lots of opinions

Ryan

Beta KID # 17 showed up at my door this morning.  :) Six SW 270 PV panels expected to be here in the next 7-10 days so I should have the KID online soon for some BETA testing! First impressions out of the box the KID is built like a tank. I'm certain it will be a big hit for a CC in it's size class.  ;D Can't wait for the panels to show up so I can put it to work!

Congratulations dude. I am patiently awaiting mine.

Cheers...
Damani

I think I would like to keep all comments, Good, Bad or indifferent on the forum here. Now the question is how to do it? I think I will create a category specifically for this "The KID BETA Report card" and let everyone just pile in. We could make it a category with sub categories for different things but I suspect that would get large and harder to follow? Thoughts?

Ryan

Report card from Hawaii.
Although this type of installation is not recommended, it is nice to know that this KID survived a storm and is still working normal. We are expecting a larger storm later today. I haven't moved the KID from its outdoor location so let's see what it is good for.
Ryan, is this situation covered under warranty? Aren't the marine versions supposed to work under water? TeeHee

So? what's the problem?  None of the fuses are blown? ;).... just a few spots of water ;D ;D
and it is still kicking down from '51.? V

:o HMMM is that from a water leak, say What?  that's a marine model...  that was sub-marine wasn't it?

Quote from: Robin on January 03, 2014, 05:16:09 PM
Ryan, is this situation covered under warranty? Aren't the marine versions supposed to work under water? TeeHee

Or the next closest thing, the Monsoons and 125% humidity?

Not a water leak. The rain here was blowing sideways all night.

Quote from: Robin on January 03, 2014, 05:16:09 PM
Report card from Hawaii.
Although this type of installation is not recommended, it is nice to know that this KID survived a storm and is still working normal. We are expecting a larger storm later today. I haven't moved the KID from its outdoor location so let's see what it is good for.
Ryan, is this situation covered under warranty? Aren't the marine versions supposed to work under water? TeeHee

Nope I believe that disqualifies you from any warranty requests :)

Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 03, 2014, 07:52:06 PM

Quote from: Robin on January 03, 2014, 05:16:09 PM
Report card from Hawaii.
Although this type of installation is not recommended, it is nice to know that this KID survived a storm and is still working normal. We are expecting a larger storm later today. I haven't moved the KID from its outdoor location so let's see what it is good for.
Ryan, is this situation covered under warranty? Aren't the marine versions supposed to work under water? TeeHee

Nope I believe that disqualifies you from any warranty requests :)

The fine print in Robins contract stipulates "Lifetime warranty" for any situation. Abuse, acts of boB etc.  :)

He can tie the KID to a piece of rope and drag it behind his bicycle all day and still be covered. Of course, to get that kind of anything goes extended warranty he has to pay much much more than anyone else does. 500 times list?  ;)

Hmmmm, maybe that is why my garage is full of inverters and charge controllers?

Quote from: Robin on January 04, 2014, 01:55:36 AM
Hmmmm, maybe that is why my garage is full of inverters and charge controllers?

and Spectro Acoustics, Marantz, Phase Linear, Carver, Scott, maybe a RobKen 2123?.......etc. etc.......

I got my beta kid today. will get it installed on the boat when I get back from hawaii.

Uhhhh, yup.

Beta Kid #29 delivered Friday around noon. Off work 4:30 PM , drive 100 miles freezing rain icy Wisconsin road conditions.  Got to sleep in a bit and replaced existing Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT with the Kid. Had to relocate and clean up this messy installation so now it is only half messy.  For now it has 4 - 50 watt ARCO panels 2 series then combined for 24v out ( this was the maximum I could do for Sunsaver). This charges a few different types of ( free) AGM batteries in 12 volt . The battery pack is literally at my feet and provides 12v for ham radio station and other loads. Installation complete less than 24 hours later !

The installation went pretty easily. I didn't look at the directions too much. Not at all for the programming - it was intuitive enough for the few settings I put in to get it up and running. But since it is an overcast day and the panels are covered in ice there is not much going on so the KID is clicking in and out of Resting every so often - the KID is displaying batteries at 12.3v and .7A   7 watt when it is on.

Some data is available over the internet via APRS . I have voltage , indoor temperature , and light level telemetry from an Argent Data OT2M http://wiki.argentdata.com/index.php?title=Telemetry (http://wiki.argentdata.com/index.php?title=Telemetry). I also have a counter telemetry input available if anyone can think of something for me to use it for I will hook it up. I am considering upgrading to the newer OTusb or OT3M which has more telemetry inputs so could monitor more data like voltage input, etc.

Here is what is going on now though the previous week data is from the Sunsaver setup . You can see the light level increases and voltage climbs, and also how cold it was in my unheated camper. http://aprs.fi/telemetry/a/WT9M-8?range=week (http://aprs.fi/telemetry/a/WT9M-8?range=week) 

So for my no code no worry setup the installation of the KID was quite simple since I had most of the wiring already done though I did install a needed DC breaker on the PV input . The battery connection has a glass  type fuse.

The KID display reads 12.3 volts, a Trimetric reads 12.5 volts, and my Extech meter reads 12.4 volts at the battery.  To get at the terminals of the KID to take a meter reading there I would have to unscrew everything - maybe later sometime when the sun is shining.

I am very flexible so can reconfigure this setup any way I want to test out the KID as may be needed. I also have other panels I can add to this.

One question I had was - if I wanted to , could connect the input of the KID to my larger systems 24volt batteries to simply charge the 12v batteries ? Woudn't the amp limits be able to protect the KID from frying ?

Another question - Can I make a 100 amp shunt work for this with the Whizbang ?  I do have a Whizbang that is intended for another system but will install it on this . I need to do some rewiring to get the shunt installed. 

Beta Kid #30 arrived yesterday.  Not surprisingly for a Midnite product - it is very solidly built. 

One minor point - when opening up the case - after removing the single screw holding the back cover on - I found it quite difficult to separate off the back cover. Tolerances in the fitting  are VERY tight - which is a good thing for sealing it, etc - but it meant the only way I could get the cover off is to use a thin blade precision screwdriver to slowly pry a gap and work around the edges doing this to get it off. No big deal but it made me a bit nervous having to do it this way.   If that is by design, it might be worth mentioning in the manual. since the current manual implies that after you take the screw off the cover should easily come right off....

Due to weather it will be a few months before I get my 3rd PV array or microhydro installed - one of which I plan to be the permanent home of the Kid. In the meantime I'll likely temporarily substitute it in for one of my Classics for testing purposes.

MTDOC, I think the reason that the back plate is so hard to get off right now is that the lip that
fits into the back of the Kid has paint on it which makes it thicker.   Newer backs will be masked.

ClassicCrazy,  100 amp shunt ?  How many miliVolts at 100 amps ?   I would think that
the Kid has an adjustment for the scaling and if not now, probably will in the future.

boB

Thanks boB. That makes sense.

The back for the KID was designed with .007" gap all around. That is about right for paint build up. When we got the first batch of castings from Canada we found that the main casting comes out of the mold warped inwards. I did not design for a warped chassis! We just received new first article backs from the casting house. We had them retool the lip on the back to move it in about .020. This should allow the warped casting to still work with the new backs without having to pry the back off. Haven't tried them yet, but for $8000 in additional  tooling charges, they better fit!
I don't know anything about being able to adjust for a 100 amp shunt? That may be a problem, but Bob and Mario will be discussing the issue. Might be simple?
By the way, the KID is the most impressive piece of gear in that picture.

My first impression of the kid: it is quite robust and well built. Much heavier duty than what I was expecting. I have installed one kid with two 136w panels to maintain batteries for the winter. I did note a couple of things during the initial setup:

I had to do a reset to get the initial set menu items (battery voltage, type,  etc.) after battery on. It powered up in status mode for some reason. Reset brought it to these setup menu items, BTW I like the hold on instructions and count down for the reset.

The WBJR doesn't state charge or discharge current.  A sign (+/-) would be helpful/useful. Are you planning to add Ahr information? Stop amps etc? It also has "6c degrees" in the status display below the WBJR instead of info printed in manual. I had to add about a foot of wire to the WBJR lead due to locations of things (crimped and soldered), would this be creating an issue? Light indicates communications are per instructions.

#27 arrived Thursday. Nice, solid unit! Packed well enough to survive being dropped from a plane, too!

I did not have time to do much more than unpack it, fire it up on the bench and do a firmware upgrade because we had frozen drains from the Arctic Vortex that showed up with sub sub zero (F) temps for several days earlier this week and today I had to drive 3 hours through sleet and black ice to Ea Claire, Wisconsin in the dark to take my Amateur Radio tests this AM. Passed the Technician and General tests but choked on the Extra.  ;D

Hopefully I will gather some needed bits and get it in the system in the next few days.

I noticed the tight cover but looked like it was just the paint and snug is good for parts that do not move or get removed often.

I really liked the drag and drop firmware upgrade method. Too bad it did not work on my Ubuntu laptop even though Ubuntu recognized it as a drive and the file transferred to the Kid without errors but was dead simple on Win 7 Home Premium on the laptop I keep for M$ only things like this. No drivers,to install, no confusion on ports or support software to put fresh firmware on the unit. +1 on that!

All told, well done, guys!

More info as I get it.

Tom

I will let Mario comment on the start up menu stuff. I know things keep changing though.
We did hear from another beta tester that is in the marine environment. He has issues with noise interfering with the marine radio. Bob has ordered some ferrite cores to play around with. This will help with RF. If it fixes things appreciably, then we will have a kit to offer for this issue. All MPPT controllers make noise by the way. It is more of a problem when around sensitive radios.
The other issue this beta tester had was with the wiring terminal block. We have a 30 amp terminal block that only accepts a 10AWG wire. This meets code. He wanted a larger terminal block to accept a 6AWG wire. We do not have room for that inside the KID, so I suggested to transistion to a larger wire from the battery breaker that is supposed to be installed within 18" from the controller. He may not even have an output breaker.

Quote from: TomW on January 11, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
today I had to drive 3 hours through sleet and black ice to Ea Claire, Wisconsin in the dark to take my Amateur Radio tests this AM. Passed the Technician and General tests but choked on the Extra.  ;D

Tom Congratulations. Now the impatient wait for the FCC to update the data base and get you a call sign. Hopefully we can catch you on the bands soon.

73
KB1UAS

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on January 11, 2014, 10:33:24 PM

Quote from: boB on January 11, 2014, 04:30:17 PM

ClassicCrazy,  100 amp shunt ?  How many miliVolts at 100 amps ?   I would think that
the Kid has an adjustment for the scaling and if not now, probably will in the future.

boB

I have a couple of these 100 amp 50mv shunts that I salvaged . 

And my congrats also to Tom W for passing the ham radio exams !  ( you know that sounds like stories some of the old timers tell about some grueling ordeal involved in getting their license way back in the old days and how easy it is now ) 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  CONGRATS  TOM W !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well Done !!


100A at 50 mV...   That is 5 times more sensitive.  Should be doable of course.
Should actually be able to do 20 mA resolution !   Not that 20 mA is really necessary
or very much more useful than 0.1 amp but it could be done.

boB

I had a 500 amp 50mv shunt that was for another project and also the Whizbang. I now have them connected to the Kid . It seems to be working as expected. I did need to extend the purple wire from the Whizbang about a foot.  When there is an option to set up a different shunt I will install the 100 amp .

I couldn't find any menus that shows the firmware version. I am assuming that this shipped out with the most current firmware since the one on the web is dated 12-31-13 .

I notice that the  Kid display is not reading negative. I just checked to make sure on the Whizbang that the purple wire is pointing towards the wire that goes to the battery.

After playing with the menus and searching through all the different options you can not get into the advanced tech. I had to disconnect battery power to get into that area.  I did  verify by browsing through things several times and had to shut battery power off to access.  Since the reset is located there I didn't have much of any other choice.

BTW, the firmware version is displayed when you do a factory reset. Mine displays 1704. That may be a useful visual tool for the status display or in the tech menu.

I also couldn't configure anything in bully mode. Connection of the two units required?  I could mess around in follow me. I will be configuring in this arrangement but not for a while. One is in service at the trailer and one is on the coffee table where its warm.

An option to change between Celsius and Fahrenheit would be really nice.

This little thing is incredible!

Sorry for the double post, but I have a couple more questions: ???

what triggers a charging cycle? Will this be able to the set on time or voltage and or both? Additionally what triggers equalize cycle? Will this be able to be set on an automatic time or manual? ln an RV application it could be several months before you return to see the state of the battery with no use.

Thanks

Beta Kid #48 arrived safely today.

Initial impression:
I think it is a mistake to not have front side access to the wire terminals. With wiring from the back, the connections to the Kid have to made before mounting it on the wall and/or there has to be a location to leave a slack section of wire.

A couple questions:
Is there a Low Voltage Disconnect mode for the load terminals?
How does one initiate an equalize charge?

Quote from: TomW on January 11, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
#27 arrived Thursday. Nice, solid unit! Packed well enough to survive being dropped from a plane, too!

I did not have time to do much more than unpack it, fire it up on the bench and do a firmware upgrade because we had frozen drains from the Arctic Vortex that showed up with sub sub zero (F) temps for several days earlier this week and today I had to drive 3 hours through sleet and black ice to Ea Claire, Wisconsin in the dark to take my Amateur Radio tests this AM. Passed the Technician and General tests but choked on the Extra.  ;D

Hopefully I will gather some needed bits and get it in the system in the next few days.

I noticed the tight cover but looked like it was just the paint and snug is good for parts that do not move or get removed often.

I really liked the drag and drop firmware upgrade method. Too bad it did not work on my Ubuntu laptop even though Ubuntu recognized it as a drive and the file transferred to the Kid without errors but was dead simple on Win 7 Home Premium on the laptop I keep for M$ only things like this. No drivers,to install, no confusion on ports or support software to put fresh firmware on the unit. +1 on that!

All told, well done, guys!

More info as I get it.

Tom

Tom, I am working with Andrew in making a bootloader Rev 2, which should work on Linux, Mac and all Windows.
Right now there will not be any more updates until we get the new bootloader done and verified.
Coming real soon.
To note: All the units with Code Rev 1704 might have problems communicating with the WBJR, that is known and will get fixed as soon as we roll out Bootloader Rev 2.x

Mario R

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on January 12, 2014, 12:54:04 PM
I had a 500 amp 50mv shunt that was for another project and also the Whizbang. I now have them connected to the Kid . It seems to be working as expected. I did need to extend the purple wire from the Whizbang about a foot.  When there is an option to set up a different shunt I will install the 100 amp .

I couldn't find any menus that shows the firmware version. I am assuming that this shipped out with the most current firmware since the one on the web is dated 12-31-13 .

ClassicCrazy,
To tell what version of firmware it has: on boot up when the Welcome screen appears "Midnite Solar" "The Kid 17xx"
there will be a number on the left side of The kid is the firmware version.
The latest code on the web is 1704
If there is no number there that means that you have the original code from factory.
Again, if you update to 1704 your communications to the WBJR will be flaky but its not a big deal since right now the kid doesn't do nothing else than display the current from it.

Quote from: Mario on January 14, 2014, 02:24:01 PM

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on January 12, 2014, 12:54:04 PM

ClassicCrazy,
To tell what version of firmware it has: on boot up when the Welcome screen appears "Midnite Solar" "The Kid 17xx"
there will be a number on the left side of The kid is the firmware version.
The latest code on the web is 1704
If there is no number there that means that you have the original code from factory.
Again, if you update to 1704 your communications to the WBJR will be flaky but its not a big deal since right now the kid doesn't do nothing else than display the current from it.

After I had written this post I had updated the firmware.  So from what I saw last time I looked was that in most recent firmware the Whizbang amps reading was only a positive value even if it was coming only out of the battery. 

Quote from: Mario on January 14, 2014, 01:34:08 PM
Tom, I am working with Andrew in making a bootloader Rev 2, which should work on Linux, Mac and all Windows.
Right now there will not be any more updates until we get the new bootloader done and verified.

Mario R

Mario;

Thats great! Anything that makes it easier will be appreciated, I am sure.

I think you guys hit a home run with the drag and drop updater, making it cross platform will make it that much better!

Finally hooked mine up temporarily until I source some proper parts and of course no sun today.

Tom

My KID arrived this morning, as TomW said the packaging is excellent and the build quality is excellent.
No serial # on it or the box.

The manual is well presented and those various connection diagrams are a very useful addition. The wall template is also a nice idea.
As expected for a beta unit, lots of the mentioned modes and features are also noted as not yet available. 

I will be very interested when the wind options become available and the KID Clipper too. A wind learning mode ;D
Maybe this code will migrate to the Classic and it will get the eagerly awaited wind learning mode  :)

Bright sun today so will be connecting this up to five in series 140W Pvs and 24v LiFeYPo4 battery. MPV of 90v looks good for max current throughput on KID.

Thanks MN for providing these Beta units.

dgd

Quote from: dgd on January 15, 2014, 04:48:05 PM
My KID arrived this morning, as TomW said the packaging is excellent and the build quality is excellent.
No serial # on it or the box.

dgd

Mine was hand written  on a piece of paper taped inside the cover.

I have it wired in temporarily from 2 X 75 watt 12 volt nominal panels in series. It was doing some good amps earlier today when the sun was out with 63 to 65 volts in.

Tom

Quote from: TomW on January 15, 2014, 05:11:47 PM
Mine was hand written  on a piece of paper taped inside the cover.

yes, I had taken the cover off and set it down without inspecting the inside of the cover.  Beta kid #28
No paint on the lip of the cover so it is a snug fit but comes off easy when the securing bolt is removed

Seems to be working nicely, I see over 540watts from a 700watt pv array

dgd

I powered up #48 on the bench this morning. Measured standby loss of approx 700 mW at 12 V and 750 mW at 24 V. At 12 volts that amounts to 1400 mAh/day. Putting the display to sleep after 15 minutes should improve that some.

Update: for comparison I checked the standby loss of the SS MMPT that was removed to make room to give beta 48 a try. The SS MPPT standby loss was almost linear with voltage: 285 mW at 12 volts and 685 mW at 24 volts.

Going through the configuration I was able to adjust the load manual mode, low voltage disconnect and reconnect voltages. But only found this by luck as it is accessed with the setup button. Seems like the Manual mode should actually be called LVD for low voltage disconnect. I also tried the Toggle mode. Seems like this mode should allow the operator to turn the load on and off from the status display. Doesn't seem to work that way. So what does toggle do?

Still haven't been able to set up an automatic equalization and haven't been able to find a way to initiate a manual equalization either.

Kent and others
I have asked Mario to jump in. I know he is working on adding the EQ functionality now but as for the rest I will wait for Mario

Ryan

We have our KID Marine Beta installed in our sailing yacht, 12V system, two 160W panels mounted horizontally on the arch along with the radar, VHF, SSB, Rogue WiFi, and GPS antennas.  It works fine and seems to handle shading from the sails and antennas good.  And the idle power consumption is pretty much negligible.

One downside is that it has a pretty substantial footprint for the limited panel space we have in yachts.  The bracket that came with it was handy for mounting, and I found a nice place for it by the battery bank selector switch where it is out of the way but easily readable when sitting at the chart table.  It is right next to our VHF and SSB radios, and our GPS chartplotter, and none of the other equipment seems to be bothered by any RFI from it.

For the marine version we're looking at ruggedness in the salt air environment, ability to handle shading from the sails when underway, and power consumption when idle.  So far it meets all expectations.  Exceeds expectations on idle power consumption.  We'll know more after it spends the next couple months cruising the Caribbean.

I don't know if the non-marine versions have the same display, but the display is super easy to read in all lighting conditions.

Ok, I will try to answer some of the questions:
I have been working on code to get the LCD to turn off after some time to reduce idle. What ever I can do to Help minimize it.
EQ will be available soon but it will not be Auto EQ yet, It will be Manual to start with. Since right now there is not a way to do an EQ, I will get something so you guys can EQ.

Setup Button, this going to be new for some of you who are familiar with the Classic, so if you are in a menu(eg. Load, Input) and you want to know if you can Setup a parameter on that menu or for the specific function you have selected, just press SETUP the button, if there is a setup it will take you to it and you can modify the behaviour. Don't be afraid just press it, find out what is all you can Setup, for different functions there are different setups, to get out of the menu just press the Menu Back button.
If there is not a setup then the key is just ignored.

The Low Battery Disconnect  for the load can be found by going to Main Menu->Load->Highlight Battery and press the SETUP button.
The manual has a section on the LBD and how to operate it.
BTW there was an update recently to the Manual and can be found on the MidNite Solar website.

Mario

Quote from: Bunkie314 on January 12, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
After playing with the menus and searching through all the different options you can not get into the advanced tech. I had to disconnect battery power to get into that area.  I did  verify by browsing through things several times and had to shut battery power off to access.  Since the reset is located there I didn't have much of any other choice.

What do you want to modify when you were trying to get access to the Advance menu?
There is a menu called TECH located all the way to the right in Main Menu where you will be able to find Calibration, Factory reset and Firmware Update.
Calibration is where you can adjust the Battery Voltage, Pv voltage and Anticlick settings on the kid.

Quote from: Bunkie314 on January 12, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
BTW, the firmware version is displayed when you do a factory reset. Mine displays 1704. That may be a useful visual tool for the status display or in the tech menu.

Yes, I am working on an About Kid screen where it will have the Rev numbers for the App and the Bootloader. So it will be moved out of Factory reset.

Quote from: Bunkie314 on January 12, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
I also couldn't configure anything in bully mode. Connection of the two units required?  I could mess around in follow me. I will be configuring in this arrangement but not for a while. One is in service at the trailer and one is on the coffee table where its warm.

An option to change between Celsius and Fahrenheit would be really nice.

This little thing is incredible!

About Bully: you Must have the two units to be able to do anything there because it is expecting a response back from the Wimpy kid,
Follow me mode does not expect a response back so it will just spit out data on the serial port when it needs to, to make the other kids follow the Master.

As time allows there will be a F to C option.

Thanks for the Feedback,
Mario

Quote from: Mario on January 16, 2014, 04:07:15 PM
Ok, I will try to answer some of the questions:
I have been working on code to get the LCD to turn off after some time to reduce idle. What ever I can do to Help minimize it.

Mario, the idle power consumption seems very very low here.  It draws less power on standby than the OEM volt meter that was in our boat, which I took out after putting in the KID Marine.  I hope you leave an option to leave the display active because I like being able to glance at it when I go below deck and see our system voltage and/or solar charging status without having to touch it to wake it up.

Thanks.

Quote from: ChrisOlson on January 16, 2014, 05:12:14 PM
I like being able to glance at it when I go below deck and see our system voltage and/or solar charging status without having to touch it to wake it up.

Thanks.

Ahhh !  You see !   Mario's Look- N' -Lite software works great, doesn't it ?  You did not even notice that it goes
off when you aren't watching for it to go off !

Job well done, Mario !

Now, if we could only verify that the light inside your refrigerator actually goes off when you close the door....

Quote from: boB on January 16, 2014, 05:46:04 PM

Job well done, Mario !

Now, if we could only verify that the light inside your refrigerator actually goes off when you close the door....

You can with a  mooshimeter! (http://moosh.im/mooshimeter/).   ;D

These actually look really good. Can do lots of cool things for RE system monitoring - I'm gonna get one.

Quote from: Mario on January 16, 2014, 04:36:27 PM

Quote from: Bunkie314 on January 12, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
After playing with the menus and searching through all the different options you can not get into the advanced tech. I had to disconnect battery power to get into that area.  I did  verify by browsing through things several times and had to shut battery power off to access.  Since the reset is located there I didn't have much of any other choice.

What do you want to modify when you were trying to get access to the Advance menu?
There is a menu called TECH located all the way to the right in Main Menu where you will be able to find Calibration, Factory reset and Firmware Update.
Calibration is where you can adjust the Battery Voltage, PVC voltage and Anticlick settings on the kid.

Mario, I was just browsing through all the different menus to get more familiar with the ladders.  What I was trying to convey was it will no go into the tech menu if you browse the other menus too many times. It just hangs and will not let you into the tech menu. I was not trying to do anything other than look through the contents. I thought at first I had not entered information somewhere else. The second and third time I got it to act the same way was to just browse the other menus numerous times and then try to get into the tech menu, of which it will not let you in unless you cycle power.

Quote from: Bunkie314 link=topic=1547.msg13808#msg13808 date=1389569808

The new Kid here has been patiently waiting at the door for a week, until my weekend  return from the Center Of Nowhere.

Serial # unknown.  Looks very compact and sporty indeed.  Foam-In-Place packing material is very nice (this may not be done for Production units,  but shows MidNite cares!).

Looking forward to getting this youngster connected within the week,  initially on a 12 backup battery bank.

Very slick product on initial quick review.   THANKS again MidNite!     Vic

Beta Unit #51 received safe and sound.
Thanks  for the fast service.

Will not be able to get it setup for a little while due to snow and ice conditions.

Will try a small test here at home with what materials I have.

EJ

Quote from: Westbranch on January 20, 2014, 08:47:40 PM
Beta Unit #51 received safe and sound.
Thanks  for the fast service.

Will not be able to get it setup for a little while due to snow and ice conditions.

Will try a small test here at home with what materials I have.

EJ

I didn't have time to hook mine up right away but I fired it up on 2X 9v batteries and updated the firmware so it was current before I got around to installing it. Might be easier if the install location is inconvenient to get at with a computer.

Just one thing you could do before you can get around to installing it.

Tom

Hi Tom, I got an email from Robin and he said there is new software coming in a week or so...  waiting ...

Quote from: Westbranch on January 21, 2014, 12:46:16 PM
Hi Tom, I got an email from Robin and he said there is new software coming in a week or so...  waiting ...

You are going to like how simple they made the upgrade process!

Doesn't get any easier than drag and drop.

Mine has been humming along nicely in this deep cold full sun kicking out 300 watts and a bit from the 300 watts of 15 year old series connected 12 volt nominal 4X75 watt Seimans panels. Seldom saw over 240 watts or so direct connected in 24 volt pairs. Happy camper here.

Tom

Now you've got me curious.. so I will have to find a battery and just have a peek at it.
Still have to read the manual  ::)

Quote from: TomW on January 11, 2014, 07:46:29 PM

  ...   I had to drive 3 hours through sleet and black ice to Ea Claire, Wisconsin in the dark to take my Amateur Radio tests this AM. Passed the Technician and General tests but choked on the Extra.  ;D  ... 
Tom

Tom,  congratulations of becoming a General.    Going from zero to Extra is a fairly large step.   It can be a good idea to operate for a few months,  and then go back for the Extra,  even though it would be an "Extra" trip.

Hope to see you on the bands sometime soon.   73,  Have Fun!    Vic

Well,   had hoped to get Kid #53 in service with a reasonably clean install today.    But do almost no 1/2" conduit work,  so simply have no stock of anything other than in 1/2" Liquid-Tight Metal Flex stuff,  which would not fit well.  Actually could hack something together using CorraClad MC,  but that would just have to be replaced with something better in a week or two.

Would like to look at the RFI Emissions from the Kid,  which,   to me,   dictates tight metal pipe all the way to the entry of the battery box.

SO,  will be at least a week,  until the next trip to town.

It does look like perhaps MN  might be considering an additional knock out on the left end,  above the Master & Slave connectors  (based only on the relief in the rear cover's lip in that area).   This would please me,  as do like to separate BTS/Control/IO lines from the Power cables -- into their own conduit box.   FWIW.

I do like the USB Port access via the cutout in the casting wall.

More later,  but the Kid is a very attractive,  function-laden product.  Thanks MidNite!    Vic

Beta KID #28 has been up and running for near a week.

It has worked without any problem and it just fitted nicely into my PV system allowing me to use an extra five 140 watt pvs I had available. 24volt with 700watts of PV, high current I have seen is 28A. It really does run cool

Once I had it wired up, you must do this before attaching to mounting plastic frame, it took only a minute or so to get set up. It auto detects battery voltage. The battery charging setpoints are all initially at 29.5V and need to be adjusted. Float 27.4 and absorb 29.2 were ok but it wont let me set EQ voltage at 31v, it just bounces between 29.4 and 29.5.
Needed to tweak battery voltage by 0.1 to match Classics and inverter.

The display, 2 line by 16 chars, white on blue background, looks nice, but does need an off option. Main status seems a bit limited, cant see input current. When moving between main option a * is placed in front of the item text to show current one but in other menus the < and > are used to bracket the current item.

As a beta unit it does not have too many of the software options available. AUX options are just the WBjr input, off or auto, I could not find any follow me as I would like to eventually connect it to a Classic. I assume many more AUX output options are on the way.
Runs so cool I bet it could output 35A :-)

dgd

Beta #31 is up and running.  :D

First thing I did was to punch out 1 of the 1/2" knockouts to 3/4". This way I only have one piece of conduit running to the Kid. The 3/4" male adapter and lock nut fit fine. 

I did not like the fact that the lugs are on the back side of the Kid, but with some 10 awg pigtails I just made the final connections in the DC Disconnect below it.

One major issue for me, with my calibrated torque driver set for 20 in lbs I broke 2 of the lugs off, the other 2 torqued fine. So now with no way to loosen the lugs and remove the wires, I charged headed hoping it is torqued enough. I will be keeping a close eye on it tomorrow.

Seems to work great under the low light conditions at the end of the day. Isnt that always the way, when the sun is setting is just when you make the final connections and fire up the array. :-\

Set up was a breeze.

What is the status of follow me with multiply Classics and the Kid?

Thanks for a nice product and the opportunity to bang on it.

20 Inch Pounds would likely break the screws. I was told the correct torque is 5.5 Inch Pounds.

Ryan,

The manual that was packed with the Beta Unit says 20 inch pounds on page 8. It seemed kinda high for the size of the lugs considering the DIN mounted breakers are 20 inch pounds, but I just defered to the manual over my instinct. 

Thanks for getting back to me.

The new MN Kid CC,  looks to be a lot of  CC for the money,  and has many,  many useful functions and features.  Many of these functions are those that many of have been asking MN to roll into a product,  and bingo,  here we are!

Have been getting ready to get ready to mount the Kid on the wall of power in the power room.

Do agree with others that two 1/2" conduit knockouts are too small in diameter,  and too few in number  for ALL of the neat functions built into the Kid.   Would bet that there are a number of folks within MidNite that may well agree.   I would be surprised that a 3/4" lock nut on a 3/4" conduit entry would fit reliably  without interference,  although,  have not pulled the Kid off of its home-brewed mount,  pulled off its back to check this detail.

Lou,  did you use a locknut (lockring)  on that 3/4" conduit entry that you mentioned?

Sure would like an additional conduit knockout on the side of the Kid,  above the Master/Slave - BTS connectors,   for ALL of the obvious reasons.  Having it be 3/4"  or better yet,  1"  would be very nice.

As noted before,  for my own systems ALWAYS use hard metal pipe -- usually EMT.   So,  the need to remove the Kid from any mounting approach can be quite difficult when dealing with non-flexible pipe.   And seems that removing the Kid from its mount might not be a rare occurrence,  in order to remove the Kid's back cover to access cables/wires,   etc.

So,  based on my limited experience trying to mount the standard  (non-Marine) Kid on a wall  with EMT conduit containing ALL of the cabling,  is a bit of a challenge.   Any folks wanting to use non-flexible conduit may well be much better served trying to use the Marine mount (although  have never seen a Kid Marine version in person).

And,  agree with the obvious limitations of needing to remove the back cover of the Kid to get at any of the wiring/cables.

Not to rag too much,  and know that the Kid is targeted at the lower feature,  lower cost market segment,   and that adding this function,  and that benefit here and there will add to the cost,  which increases direct product cost,  as well as extending design/development time.

A fan-less MidNite CC is what I have wanted for a long time,  and the Kid is a great entry into the medium range,  high performance area.

Just a quick few thoughts  from cranky Vic

Vic,

I did use a 3/4" lock nut with the male adapter, it cleared with no problem.

To be clear, I increased the the size of one of 1/2" knockouts on the surface mount bracket only. Once inside the surface mount bracket I ran the wire through whatever 1/2" knockout on the kid itself was convenient. Used the 1/2" plastic bushings to protect the wire at the Kid's knockouts. 

This is the kids first full day in operation and it is cranking at a steady  23 amp and 620 watts. Nice!

Lou,  OH,  OK,  thanks for the detail;
EDIT:  Yep,  the Male Adapter is right there in your photo.
And,    BTW,  nice clean installation! end edit -

Feel compelled to use an EMT Box Connector on the Kid itself -- continuous metal shield for the cables,  connected directly to the Kid's outside casting.   So  any locknut needs to be inside the Kid's outer metal casting.

Nice that the Kid is so well behaved,  and working hard.

Thanks,    Vic

We did have 20 inch pounds in the manual for a little while. I probably did that myself. 20 inch pounds will break the unit as Lou found out on #31. Lou, please send the KID back and we will fix it. The manufacturer says to torque to 5.5 inch pounds. That sounds wimpy to me, so Doug did a test using a calibrated torque screw driver. 5.5 inch pounds actually works quite well with the stranded wire he used. We should go back and test with 10AWG solid. Doug also did a bunch of other torque settings all the way up to 15. Nothing broke. We may put 7-9 inch pounds in the manual and on the labels.
Yes we will be getting labels when ETL is done. If we do not have to make any changes to the KID, then we will start the serial numbers at 001. That way we can send out a real label set to all the beta testers. There is room for a 3/4" conduit to connect to the plastic wall adapter, but not to the casting. The KID was not designed for rigid conduit so anyone that insists on using rigid is on their own. That sounds really hard to do!
The KID does run cooler than the Classic. That was by design. There are some crazy people in Australia that will be placing these out in the Outback in direct sunlight where the shade is 50 degrees C. This is why the massive heat sink. The crazy Australians were heavily involved in influencing the design of the KID. The feature set of the KID is growing every day. We haven't put the new code releases on the website because the code got too big to be updated. Mario and Andrew in France are working on a new boot loader that will allow this larger code to be uploaded. We are hoping to release new code very soon. I suspect that Mario will be releasing new features about every two weeks for the next year. We haven't even identified every single feature that is planned yet, but suffice it to say if Mario can fit a feature into the KID, it will eventually get incorporated. This is also a good time to ask for your wish list also. Just e-mail Mario@midnitesolar.com.
One cool feature that will make it into the KID soon is Bob's state of charge meter. It appears to be working, but Ryan and Bob are still working on tweaks. Bob is adding temp comp to the SOC meter too to make things more accurate.
Everyone who got a beta was supposed to get a free Whizbang Jr. and a battery temp sensor, so if you didn't get these, please e-mail bo@midnitesolar.com. He will send them out.

I forgot to mention one thing. We have ordered a bunch of ferrite cores for EMI testing. Using rigid conduit may not be as good as a few wraps of wire around a ferrite core. We plan on doing this testing very soon. Some of the cores are already here. This does make the conduit thing messy though.

Hey Robin,

Thanks for the replies,

I am NOT using Rigid Conduit.   What I am using is quite inflexible -- EMT.  This,  as you well know,  is thin walled Electrical Metallic Tubing.

The EMT runs are quite short,  about 2.5"  into a 4" X 4" cast Al box.   This has a bit of a service loop,  but is really not large enough to accommodate any very large EMI Cores.   There is EMT that comes out of that box and goes to the DC disconnects,  battery,  and a separate EMT run is for the BTS.

One of the reasons was begging for added and larger knockouts is because of the BTS RJ connector.   Usually on my personal systems,  run 1" EMT for BTSes and control cable,  because one can fish in additional BTSes,  and actually remove one,  should a BTS need replacing,  without cutting off the RJ connector,  fishing the BTS cable through smaller conduit,  and then when this BTS cable is into the CC case,  crimping on a new RJ.   This is particularly important for RJ-terminated comm cables,  at least for me.   1/2 conduit entries to the Kid  will allow fishing a single RJ connectored cable,  but with any other cables in that conduit run,  probably all other cables would have to be removed/reinstalled in order to add or subtract a comm cable or BTS,  IHVHO.

Had felt that without making the Kid casting just a bit deeper,   it would not be possible to use any standard 3/4" locknut inside the Kid.  And also realize that if the Kid's casting was any deeper  it would be expensive,  and that then probably mean the plastic wall adapter tool would need to be changed,  and then perhaps the packaging might need to change,   then the multi-pac cartons ...   and so on.

Am quite concerned with RFI Emission levels from CCs,  and have found that my standard approach is ineffective with the Classic,  which has greater emissions at 'identical' power output (within reason)  than those of the MX-60,  using the same PV array,  pipe,  cable,  Common-Mode chokes,  etc.  The most important frequencies of interest for me are the HF bands -- below 30 MHz,  where   FCC B testing just begins.

Had wanted to give the Kid emissions a quick test,  realizing that there appeared to be essentially no room in the Kid casting for anything but perhaps a capacitor or two.

There are many things that I like about the Kid -- had mentioned in another Thread that the hole in the casting for the USB connector is a very good idea,  and we users do appreciate it  ...  plus the many many other features functions and benefits of the Kid by Mario,  and company.

Thanks,   Looks like it will be a great product.     Back to work,    Vic

Vic, the reason for the short depth on the KID is that RV walls can be as thin as 1.5". I made the KID short enough to fit in a wall of an RV. That means there is no room for a 3/4" conduit hole. EMT will not be the normal installation for the KID. Heck, I will be surprised if most users do anything at all coming out the two conduit holes. ( I didn't, but then engineers rarely hook things up correctly). I suspect a lot of users won't even install breakers in the input and output circuits.
Ask Bob for a ferrite core when he or Mike does the EMI testing. I believe it will fit in your box. All controllers make noise. The KID won't be any better than others.  We have already had reports of people very happy that the KID doesn't interfere with radios and also that it is terrible. It all depends on your circumstances, but the cores will make a difference.

OK Robin,

Thanks for the perspective on why the Kid is SO slim.  I,  too,  was more so as a kid myself,   vs now.

And the ONLY reason for the two off-grid PV-powered sites here are for the LOW RF NOISE experience.   Moved out of town to leave almost all noise behind.

The investments in these sites are not too small.  SO,  any/all noise that I make is in no way trivial.

I am an engineer,  myself,  and have taken customary precaution to TRY to minimize RF noise at any reasonable cost.

All MPPT CCs make noise,  some much,  much more than others.   AND,  since these devices (for stand-alone CCs) are not AC line-connected,  FCC B begins at 30 MHz.   30 MHz and above is of almost NO interest to me whatsoever.   SO,  CC behavior in the lowest portions of the HF bands -- 160 & 80/75 meters is very important.   The good thing is,  that 160 Meters is almost exclusively a night-time band.   80/75 M are more morning/late afternoon bands.

That is all,  always looking for the lowest noise vs CC features/functionality,  but often am quite willing to trade-off low noise for fewer functions.

I am quite surprised just how quiet your venerable MX-60 is --  about 15 or more Db quiet than most anything that is current generation.

Am yammering,  and realize that running metal pipe into and out of off-grid hardware may not be the custom,   but it is done here for a very good reason.

Thanks,   Good Luck with the Kid.      Vic    K6IC

[Eagerly awaited] Beta Kid #64 arrived last week, and I have had fun tinkering with it. Haven't had the opportunity to fetch some test modules and batteries from my shop so have had it hooked up to a DeWalt drill battery for power.

First impressions are very good.

This unit just feels like a a high quality device, and I like the heavy build. I'm not likely to ever use these guys in a marine setting, so for me the white on blue LCD seems like a good choice. Easy to read under most conditions and quite bright. As others have mentioned, a backlight time-out setting would be a nice feature for the future.
Moving through the various menus and settings seemed straightforward and intuitive. One issue I ran into is that in the MISC-->LED MODE menu I could not get the setting to change off of BCM mode. This seems like it might be a bug, or perhaps there just isn't yet any functionality in the other mode settings.

The only other things I would mention thus far are some minor cosmetic issues. The red plastic fuse covers seem pretty delicate and a little loose, especially the larger cover for the load/clipper fuse. I think if one were installing a Kid in cold weather you might have to be careful not to break the tabs on the cover. That being said, those fuses shouldn't have to be messed with under most situations, so maybe it isn't a real worry. Also, the rubber plug for the USB port in the casting seems so loose that I think it could fall out of its own accord. Again, not a major issue, but I thought I would mention it.

Mine came with firmware version 1704.3. I went to the web to see about updating, but could not find any links for Kid firmware under the firmware index. Am I missing something, or have the Kid firmware update links been pulled until the new bootloader is ready?

All in all I have to say this little controller is awesome! Job well done guys!
This is going to be a go-to controller for my smaller systems.

More feedback to follow when I get it running under some PV.
Thanks for the opportunity to be a Beta tester.
-Luke

Quote from: RoverLuke on January 27, 2014, 02:47:51 PM

One issue I ran into is that in the MISC-->LED MODE menu I could not get the setting to change off of BCM mode. This seems like it might be a bug, or perhaps there just isn't yet any functionality in the other mode settings.

The only other things I would mention thus far are some minor cosmetic issues. The red plastic fuse covers seem pretty delicate and a little loose, especially the larger cover for the load/clipper fuse. I think if one were installing a Kid in cold weather you might have to be careful not to break the tabs on the cover. That being said, those fuses shouldn't have to be messed with under most situations, so maybe it isn't a real worry. Also, the rubber plug for the USB port in the casting seems so loose that I think it could fall out of its own accord. Again, not a major issue, but I thought I would mention it.

Luke;

The LED mode is not in the firmware yet so it is not settable (yet).

I heard the fuse covers are on the list of things to improve.

Tom

I had thought that I was having some trouble navigating through menus,  but found that the Kid needs a considerable amount of force applied to the Navigation buttons,  compared to Classics ...  had thought that the button had been pressed,  but it had not been pressed hard enough.

The Kid seems to be a very capable CC,  with  many more functions than I've gotten my head around,  yet.

Looks like it will be a winner.

One thought,  regarding previous discussion on conduit passages.

Would strongly one or perhaps even two additional passages,  probably on the left side,  above the Master/Slave - BTS connectors.  It might be difficult getting the comm cable and BTS through one 1/2" passage,  and it is likely that one using the Load function could have a couple of leads in the second conduit passage already ...

Just to beat a bit on that subject.   All in all,   the Kid looks to be a great CC brining with functions,  and in typical MidNite fashion,  it will just get better and better.

Thanks!  Vic

Furthermore,

Yes the Kid is well calibrated.

And,  in Solar Input mode,  when this ticking begins,  it will continue for a minute or so,   then the relay clicks,  and the display goes blank -- the backlight stays on.   The battery breaker must by cycled to get out of this blank display mode.

And,  once this ticking behavior begins,  turning off the input breaker does not stop the ticking,  although turning off the PM in breaker may possibly increase the frequency of the ticking.   It sounds like Morse Code at about 12 words per minute on an old telegraph mechanical Sounder ... if one know what that sounds like.

Using a DMM on the PV In at its breaker,  the almost Voc voltage of  19.5-ish voltage does vary a few tenths of a volt,  but have never seen it down near rated Vmp.   Ta is currently 19C

EDIT:  And  at the end of this ticking event,  the relay clicks,  the backlight goes out only for about a tenth of one second,  comes back on,  and the display characters disappear ...

The ISC of the PV connected to the Kid is in a believable range,  about 9-ish A on my cheezy DMM.

Again,   FWIW,  may just be noise.       Vic

Vic, Mario will need to investigate the ticking. I haven't seen that, so he may want to contact you for all the particulars.
Tom in Hawaii agrees with you regarding conduit openings. I told him that  as soon as I have an unused $40,000.00 we can have a new wall mount adapter made out of aluminum that will take 3/4" EMT. Hmmmmm, I bet that a 57 T-Bird will cost about the same, so that casting will have to wait for the second spare $40K that turns up. Always wanted a 57 T-Bird!
Those red fuse covers are a real let down. I do not know if it was the casting that came in too thick or the plastic snap feature is too short. I will be asking about modifying the tool for the plastic part. If that can be done, then the covers will start to fit better. I am concerned that if the snap feature actually snaps into place, it may not want to let go again?
Mario does have the back light going off now. We took the updates off the website due to the boot loader issue. It is being worked and will be available soon.
I am sure the lock up has been fixed also. By the way, the production LCD's will not be blue. I much prefer blue, but that color is not readable in sunlight like in a boat. Production units will be green and gray. We prefer gray, but we also have a few thousand green to go through. Both are readable in sunlight.

Yes if the wall mount was cast (With a back on it) and possibly a double sided terminal block could go in there for access this would be a nice feature for those that want to plumb it in with conduit for RFI.

Ryan

So our Beta KID with blue LCD displays will be worth a fortune as collector items some day ?   Great !!!!

I noticed this morning that my KID was producing almost no current to battery (under 2A) when in BULK. Bright sunshine and KID's 700W array was clean, no shading ..
Other solar C150 was in BULK making 1800W. Wind c250 making average 200W
They all moved to ABSORB at 29v but after a while the KID was doing nothing saying it was in FLOAT, that was not a problem.

However with other Classics and Trace inverter all showing battery voltage is 29V or 28.9V the KID was showing 28.1V and there was no output to battery.

So I did a factory reset and it went through the setup voltages again. They were all as I had previously set.
Now the battery voltage showed the correct 29V and KID started putting 5A into battery bank.
Is there some sort of auto calibrate of voltages when factory reset is done?

Why would the battery voltage on KID get to 0.9v lower than real voltage?

dgd

Quote from: dgd on January 28, 2014, 07:54:53 PM
I noticed this morning that my KID was producing almost no current to battery (under 2A) when in BULK. Bright sunshine and KID's 700W array was clean, no shading ..
Other solar C150 was in BULK making 1800W. Wind c250 making average 200W
They all moved to ABSORB at 29v but after a while the KID was doing nothing saying it was in FLOAT, that was not a problem.

However with other Classics and Trace inverter all showing battery voltage is 29V or 28.9V the KID was showing 28.1V and there was no output to battery.

So I did a factory reset and it went through the setup voltages again. They were all as I had previously set.
Now the battery voltage showed the correct 29V and KID started putting 5A into battery bank.
Is there some sort of auto calibrate of voltages when factory reset is done?

Why would the battery voltage on KID get to 0.9v lower than real voltage?

dgd

dgd, when I first released the code there was a bug on the Tcomp that would make it mess up the battery voltage in some cases. actually Robin found it in his unit in Hawaii.
Do you Have a BTS connected to it?
What kind of temperature is the kid exposed to?
and also a battery temperature?
Also can you provide the Temps from the kid Menu?

Thanks
Mario

Mario,
It was a hot day yesterday with outside about 26c. Batt temp was 24c and I noticed the C150 was running its fan most of the day. Ambient temp around KID was also about 26c. The KID felt quite warm but still cooler than Classic.
No BTS on KID.
I will get temps menu info when its get hotter today around midday.
I may be incorrect but I really got the impression that the KID was limiting the power it produced as in BULKMPPT mode it was using just a hundred watts or so from a 700w array. Even with hot PVs I would have expected maybe 400 to 500 watts.

Will you have any KID firmware updates available soon :)

dgd

I noticed a big difference in the battery voltages today.  The kid was saying 14.3 volts and my magnum inverter was .4  to .5 volts lower. I verified that the magnum measurement with my DMM at the battery terminals. I do have BTS installed on the kid and a WBJR. During bulk mppt it goes into a rest mode every so often when its charging fairly well, the Kid case is fairly cold. Battery volts and the kid float together after a few minutes in rest mode. Seems the BTS reads higher than the magnum and a hand held temp gun. BTS of the kid was 2 C and the magnum was -4, temp gun -3. I've got some photos of the voltage readings but can't see how to attach them.

Also noticed the kid input voltage shows 11.7 volts most of the night after dark.

One question about the anticlick sensitivity, 3 to 25 range I determined. I've never heard it clicking on the 8 setting which is the factory setting?  Little explanation on the setting 3 mean? 25 means?

Quote from: Bunkie314 on February 01, 2014, 01:14:24 AM
I've got some photos of the voltage readings but can't see how to attach them.

Use/click insert Image, left most button above smilies. two  { img ]  will appear, click on 'Attachments below text box, make sure cursor is between  2 'img's',  browse for pic on your computer, double click on the file, now hit " post " at bottom of page
(//)

Quote from: Westbranch on February 01, 2014, 12:34:21 PM
Use/click insert Image, left most button above smilies. two  { img ]  will appear, click on 'Attachments below text box, make sure cursor is between  2 'img's',  browse for pic on your computer, double click on the file, now hit " post " at bottom of page

  or you could upload your pic to photobucket and post the IMG link

(http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq339/chris121277/10C8C06B-D8D2-4ACA-9E35-C013655BFB51-1346-000000D9A204B97A_zps81c3ddaf.jpg) (http://s461.photobucket.com/user/chris121277/media/10C8C06B-D8D2-4ACA-9E35-C013655BFB51-1346-000000D9A204B97A_zps81c3ddaf.jpg.html)

I just checked the kid again and the BTS is saying they are 28 C, its freezing outside. Magum system is saying temp is 0 C. Interesting part is the kid voltage is compensating but doesn't seem accurate (I have -5.5 mV/cell programmed in for temp compensation). Battery voltage is about 1 volt lower at 14.3 vs the kid showing 15.3. I'm going to run some 8 g wire and inline fuse with a more direct contact to the batteries to make sure its not something I've done with how I've connected in for voltage readings.

On a tablet it seems to limit image options or it could be operator error. Thought about photobucket since I do have an acct.

Oh, FW is 1704.

Mario will have to respond to the inaccuracies pointed out here. I am sure they are all curable, but they will probably have to wait until Andrew gets the new boot loader working. I can comment on the blue LCD display though. We are totally out of beta KIDS. Mario has a couple that he needs for development, Kyle did have two downstairs in the pre-wire area, but we had to steal one of them for a beta site. Doug has one at his bench that he used for manual photos. I may try to get that away from him. I don't have one either. I do have a blue LCD in my desk drawer though. I am saving it for when Mario quits fooling around with stuff!

I checked in early this afternoon on what the kid was doing. Its lightly overcast but should be getting some charging.  Kid said rest mode. Checked in about 30 minutes later and still in rest mode.  Looked at the temperature display and it stated the cpu was at 34 C, FET's at 56 C, and the battery was 27 C. Again its right at freezing by other independent readings. Did a reset and walked through all settings.  CPU at 0 C, FET's at 1 C, and batt at 28 C. It immediately went into bulk mppt charging after turning on solar.  This was the only time I have seen the battery temp change on the display. I reduced the temp compensation a touch (-5 from -5.5 mV). Bulk ran right up to the 15.1 volts and went into absorb. Temp compensation is working but the temp display for the battery is not.  The voltage discrepancy readings don't appear linear and shift around after some period of time.  After I did the reset everything started to come together with other meter checks. I have determined that my magnum battery monitor is reading 80 mV high but I can't get a handle on what the kid is doing.  I didn't think about getting the day and hour run time prior to the reset,  ops.

I hope this is helpful and the correct location to post.

Bunkie314,
this is almost the exact same voltage issues I am seeing on beta KID #28. Reset seems to fix it but it soon starts wandering again  :P
I eagerly await a firmware update as I think Mario has fixed this problem already  :D

dgd

Ran and checked temperatures and voltages before work this morning.  Kid off was .2 volts (low ) and the CPU was 27 C, FET's at 56 C, and batt at 28 C. No sun at 5 this morning and 18 F temperature outside.

The FETs are at 56C with no sun?

Bunkie314,
The temperatures you are seeing are wrong, actually in the code you have (as well as all Betas) when the temperature goes to negative instead of displaying -1 or -2 it will seem like a real big number, and you are only seeing 2 digits it is actually 256 when you see 56 and that is the reason why it didn't come on in the morning because it got fooled and thought the FETs were too hot.

The BATT temp is different because that is in a negative number internally but displayed wrong. I have fixed some of this problems in a new firmware update I have here.
I am testing the new bootloader updater so we can distribute this new revision soon and it should fix the problems with your Kid.

Mario

Mario,

Really hasn't been cold here this year, could possibly be chilly the next couple days. Single to double digit negative F forecast overnight the next few days, but we are on the warming trend now. Any other info I could provide?  Battery temp did go from 28 to 27 once before, don't remember any of the other specific conditions when it did. The WBJR temp seems to be right in the ballpark.

Sometime during the day it figured itself out without intervention from me, charged the batteries, and temps are lingering around 0 C at 8 PM (might be a couple degrees high, but I don't have a calibrated instrument and am comparing to ambient temp)

Hope this was helpful.

Mario,

It appears that I have an issue. I took the time to setup the kid properly and was dissapointed after all of my efforts that the kid was not showing an output into my battery bank. It was bright and sunny yet no output from the kid. I tried a power cycle and the same results. I was able to successfully update the firmware on the kid before connecting to my PV. I even tried changing the mppt function from solar to solar 2 p&o without sucess .

Cheers...
Damani

Midnite,

All is well. I did a factory reset, went through the setup process and the relay click on and the kid is charging.

Cheers...
Damani

Midnite,

How does one adjust the absorb and/or equalization time for the kid. Or is it that these time are only adjustable when the custom battery setting is selected.

The second question can the kid be used to charge a 36v bank. The manual only indicated 12,24 & 48. Further to this, is it possible to custom set the bulk and absorb voltages say if you were charge an odd number of cells say 7, 13 or 25 cells.

Cheers...
Damani

You can charge a 29.867V battery bank if you wish. I'm not sure how to make the changes though as my KID is in Hawaii. I should get another one for my office, but we have shipped all the beta units. New circuit boards are supposed to show up next week. We have two pick and place machines dedicated to the KID and ready to get the show on the road.
Mario is going to have to jump in here for advice. He is about ready to release another version of the code that includes password protection. The new code may help with your issues, but I am not sure what he has out there now? Since it is Saturday, he may not be reading this? Mario will quickly learn that weekends are no longer HIS time anymore. TeeHee.

Lol Robin.

Cheers...
Damani

Midnite,

Another question. I have realized that when the back light of the display goes off the screen is absolutely unreadable in natural light...is this normal? I read that you guys plan on changing the colour of the display...will the new display be readable without the back light on.

Cheers...
Damani

Midnite,

I have also realized that the setup soft key does not function when on the main screen. My question is how does one change the setup voltage. I change voltage regularly between 12 and 24. When I tried changing the voltage from 24 to 12 the setup soft key does now allow me to do this. How does one change system voltage on the fly. I even tried a power cycle to see if it would allow me to change setup voltage without success.

Cheers...
Damani

FW 1709 day two of operation. Appeared to be charging from other indications but the screen had black squares on the top line and  nothing on the bottom line. No response from any of the buttons.  Had to remove battery and input power. Battery voltage seems to still be wandering over time.

Quote from: Bunkie314 on February 09, 2014, 03:14:42 PM
FW 1709 day two of operation. Appeared to be charging from other indications but the screen had black squares on the top line and  nothing on the bottom line. No response from any of the buttons.  Had to remove battery and input power. Battery voltage seems to still be wandering over time.

I concur. Battery voltage is drifting away over time.
The display goes into weird mode with just the top line of black squares. I described this error when running 1703 and posted pic of it. It seems to happen after  period of resting as if display driver hardware was hibernating. Only a power reset wakens the display again. Meanwhile the charging process appears to continue...


dgd

Well. Mario will need to chime in here regarding menus and wavering voltage. It sounds like dgd has a bad display though. If you have to send it back for repair, we can supply the green or gray LCD if you wish. That goes for all of you here. I prefer the blue myself, but if I had ti read it in direct sunlight, I would switch over to gray. The next two versions of back light should be better when the back light is off. We have a couple thousand green background LCD's to blow through before changing the gray back ground. Both new ones have black letters so they will be much better without back light. I will ask Mario to post how much power is required to leave the back light on? I believe it is only 1/4 watt, but let's let Mario or Mike post the real number.
Thanks for the help and for being patient with us. The KID is destined to be a great little controller and with your help it will be sooner than later!
As you can tell, it is hard to work out all the bugs in the lab.

The display issues should go away soon. Mario is working on the code so that it auto refreshes every 5 minutes. This will solve the locked up displays. As for battery voltage drifting that's an odd one. I have not seen that so Mario will have to chime in

Ryan

Quote from: Halfcrazy on February 09, 2014, 03:45:54 PM
As for battery voltage drifting that's an odd one. I have not seen that so Mario will have to chime in

Its just a display thing. The KID still works properly and changes mode from bulk to absorb at the correct battery voltage - as measured externally with Fluke, even though the KID display voltage was 1.2 volts too low.

dgd

I believe you can calibrate the voltage reading of the KID to agree with your Fluke meter.

I've tried calibration several times. It appears to drift as time goes along. I thought maybe it had something to do with the way I had it connected to the batteries.  I ran dedicated 8 gage wires to the shunt and battery positive post.  Still seems to be out of calibration the next day. I've been checking and calibrating at night with no input. It changes the next day.

The display issue may be something with a different unit as I have two betas. One blue display # 37 and one green #36. During the Bootloader and FW update I swapped usage to the green display, #36. Its much easier to see over the black letters on the green display in my opinion. My point being the display comment above may have nothing to do with the FW revision. I'll swap out to the other unit in a couple of days and report back in.

Robin,

I love working in the lab! You never know what you run into after sending something out and putting it in service. Your point is well understood. Hope I'm being helpful.

I can confirm from my own observations that there is some upwards drift of the readings on the kid. My case is a little different. At around dusk today the controller was reporting about 12w and I know that could not be the case. When I did a power cycle it then reported that it resting with no output.

Cheers...
Damani

Found a couple of pictures of our main upstairs lab. Also the turbine development area. I don't have pictures of bob's lab or the other two engineers on the other side of the building.
Labs are a fun place to hang around. Unless you are the one that has to rebuild the stuff that the engineers blow up.If any of you have read the threads regarding the Brat, you will see my reference to nailing the Brat to a tree. The C12 picture here is one of the prototype C12 controllers from the early 1990's located in my driveway. I am not nice to controllers. The Brat will replace the C12 in a few months.

I guess I will have to figure out how to download more than one photo at a time. Here is the main lab.
OK, I figured it out. I just had to read the instructions. I added a picture of Doug and MidNite our cat.

WoW, is that C12 still functioning?

and Live Lab Rats in a modern warren! complete with Clipper coils for heat.  do they evr go home?

No offence to boB, but..

I heard the nasty, viscious rumor boB's lab has a lot of porcelain in it?

I won't betray a trust and say who said that, however.

Tom

Nah the porcelain has been removed. 8)

I will have to hunt down the pictures

The C12 is no longer functioning. I used a Romex strain relief on the wires at the bottom. Insects got inside and set up camp for all their relatives. Next time I do something like this maybe I should use the proper strain relief? Ut oh, too late for my Hawaii KID. It is over there with duck tape covering up the wire holes. Hey, you got to use what you have, right? Good thing it has a lifetime warranty!
Bob's office is actually an unused bathroom. We removed the toilet and put a nice oriental rug on the floor. It is just right for boB. If he had more space, it would just get cluttered up. Our new building should have 4 times the space for engineering. 4 times the production space also.
Found a few more pictures that some of you will find amusing.
There is a picture of Andy (electrical engineer) in my office. In the background is a cabinet that holds a bunch of Spectro Acoustics gear. Onan Parts can identify with that stuff.
The other is a picture taken in Chicago last October just before the Solar Power International expo. See, we clean up pretty good. Some of the stuff on the wall are prototype arc fault combiners. That would be Ryan on the left, Mary in the middle (she really runs the show) and Michael Tian. We buy a bunch of custom plastic parts from Michael.

The poster on the wall in my office is available for anyone who wants one. Just e-mail me.
robin@midnitesolar.com

Robin;

That cabinet is a sweet looking piece of furniture!

Tom

Wow! a real lab complete with dangling sticky fly catching paper complete with a good complement of entrapped insects.
I looked at the eTracer web site and there is a pic of their development lab with engineers all in white lab coats at a straight line of very tidy and clean white desks/benches, computer screens all in a row.
All wearing the company tie, white shirts and not a pencil behind an ear anywhere.

I prefer the MN lab as it reminds me of my place  ;)
dgd

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed the fly strips. Uh.... Just a suggestion, could use a freshen up maybe.

I would agree with dgd, looks like a fun place to hang out. Thank gawd I don't have to wear a tie......

Quote from: Bunkie314 on February 09, 2014, 08:16:20 PM
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed the fly strips. Uh.... Just a suggestion, could use a freshen up maybe.

..or at least some new fly strips  :) 
Although they are low technology insect control I suppose they are better than those high voltage UV devices that ZAP the insect with a satisfying electric crackle sound. Maybe exploded insect parts falling on the electronics or people (or in beer) would not be nice  :)

dgd

I suppose we could eliminate the fly strips for a while. We hope to be in a new larger building by the time they are needed again. We do have the electric tennis racket fly paddles. My favorite one has a motion sensor that says "DIE SUCKER" when you use it.
We don't let them down in production due to obvious reasons, but if engineers zap their own product, they get to fix it.

Just had a visitor looking at my KID and he asked if it could charge both house battery and starting battery in a motor home. Usually a small fixed 1 amp output maintains the start battery.
Could a future option for the LOAD output be used to do this?

I'm already doing this with the daylight load function.  It appears to work quit well as the car battery is floating at 12.6 at night. Turns on at float and disconnects at 13.1 volt. There is already a lot of flexibility built in. I haven't limited the amp of the load side, but it is programmable. Question would be would the kid limit amps which I would imagine it should.

Where's Mario? The forum has been quite silent I'm the past couple days on responding to issue/comments/questions on the kid.

Cheers....
Damani

Im here, I been quite busy last couple of days ( more than usual), since we have the new boards in and getting ready for Production.

So there is a new version of software where the unit can be password protected and the LCD for those kids who randomly fails it should get fixed. Right now its in the tester hands to make sure it is ready to be released to the world.

Now all the guys with the Battery drift problem does it always drift the same way?

When the kid battery voltage drifts does it always drift up (displayed as a higher voltage) or always down (displayed as a lower number) or is it just random?

Mario

Quote from: dapdan on February 08, 2014, 10:15:41 AM
Midnite,

How does one adjust the absorb and/or equalization time for the kid. Or is it that these time are only adjustable when the custom battery setting is selected.

The second question can the kid be used to charge a 36v bank. The manual only indicated 12,24 & 48. Further to this, is it possible to custom set the bulk and absorb voltages say if you were charge an odd number of cells say 7, 13 or 25 cells.

Cheers...
Damani

So When you do a factory reset, and you select the different battery types that is used to get you settings close to the actual settings the batteries need depending on the battery manufacturer it will change some.
you can charge any battery voltage from 12v all the way to 48v (36v is included), so when you connect to the battery it will guess either 24v or 48v but you can change the Battery Nominal by pressing the up or down keys and selecting 36v.
then adjust your Battery set point voltages for the needs of your battery.
36v is an even number of cells just like 12,24,36,48 so there should not be any problems even when using the BTS and Tcomp.

Mario

Quote from: Mario on February 13, 2014, 07:34:05 PM

Quote from: dapdan on February 08, 2014, 10:15:41 AM
Midnite,

How does one adjust the absorb and/or equalization time for the kid. Or is it that these time are only adjustable when the custom battery setting is selected.

The second question can the kid be used to charge a 36v bank. The manual only indicated 12,24 & 48. Further to this, is it possible to custom set the bulk and absorb voltages say if you were charge an odd number of cells say 7, 13 or 25 cells.

Cheers...
Damani

So When you do a factory reset, and you select the different battery types that is used to get you settings close to the actual settings the batteries need depending on the battery manufacturer it will change some.
you can charge any battery voltage from 12v all the way to 48v (36v is included), so when you connect to the battery it will guess either 24v or 48v but you can change the Battery Nominal by pressing the up or down keys and selecting 36v.
then adjust your Battery set point voltages for the needs of your battery.
36v is an even number of cells just like 12,24,36,48 so there should not be any problems even when using the BTS and Tcomp.

Mario

oh and the absorb time and the EQ time get set by pressing the Main Menu and selecting Battery.
Here is how to think about it:
Main menu will get you to the different main sections of the kid (Battery, Load, Input, Aux, Misc...), now the top line on the top of the name in main menu give you a really brief Description of what you can find inside by pressing Enter.

Adjust                   Setpoints
           <BATTERY>

in there you will find all the diff settings for the Battery.

Whats new: inside EQ menu(where it says OFF and START) you have to Press the Setup button to change the EQ Voltage and EQ Time
Hope this Helps.

Mario

Quote from: dapdan on February 09, 2014, 10:48:16 AM
Midnite,

Another question. I have realized that when the back light of the display goes off the screen is absolutely unreadable in natural light...is this normal? I read that you guys plan on changing the colour of the display...will the new display be readable without the back light on.

Cheers...
Damani

the Blue LCDs do that, you can make the kids backlight not to go off if you go to the MISC menu and select LCD and set it to NRML, that will keep your Backlight to be always on.
Mario

Quote from: dapdan on February 09, 2014, 12:14:57 PM
Midnite,

I have also realized that the setup soft key does not function when on the main screen. My question is how does one change the setup voltage. I change voltage regularly between 12 and 24. When I tried changing the voltage from 24 to 12 the setup soft key does now allow me to do this. How does one change system voltage on the fly. I even tried a power cycle to see if it would allow me to change setup voltage without success.

Cheers...
Damani

Nope you dont want to change the Battery nominal on the fly.... not even the Classic does that. you need to do a Factory reset every time you want to switch battery nominals.
Mario

Mario,

Battery adjustment voltages...check. I have also figured out how to change the absorb and EQ times as well.

Thanks...
Damani

Mario,

Roger that... do not chanbe system voltage on the fly. I guess one would have to manually increase or decrease voltage parameter whenever one changes system voltages. It would be nice if the kid automatically senses a different voltage and ask you to confirm it and then all set points(float, absorb, eq) would then change and if one want to tweak the voltages they would already be there abouts.

Ok Mario, you have addressed all my queries here except one. Thanks. I may have ran into a problem with one of the beta kids where during fw upload it stop responding and all the leds are on and the lcd screen is blank with the top row all ink blocks. The first kid went smoothly and the second one did not right after the upload of bootlaoder. When it was complete(green led stop blinking) and after the power cycle it did not report "bootloader 2.1" and just locked up with all leds on as reported. Is it bricked now?

Cheers....
Damani

Mario,

I am experimenting with the load function (mostly diversion, float, light on). Is it possible that you guys could indicate the limits, function of all of the selection in this area of the controller as it not explained in detail in the current manual. I have been trying to charge two batteries at once with some success. I would want to know how one can limit current and voltage on the load if possible when using these various load functions.

Will future fw upgrages allow additional programming for the light on load feature(as in programming varions on/off times)

Cheers...
Damani

Think that I should mention that either the cutout in the kid's metal casting may not be quite wide enough,  perhaps there is an issue with the LCD's plastic lens thingie, or perhaps the PCB or LCD registration with the casting is imperfect.   This results in the leading character of what is displayed on the LCD (left side)  to be difficult to read.

Perhaps this may just be the result of a bit of distortion in the utmost left edge of the lens.

And speaking of the casting,  at times it seems a bit difficult to get down to the UP - DOWN - LEFT and RIGHT buttons.   Is it possible that the reliefs for fingers could be made a bit larger,  allowing easier  access  to these buttons?

FWIW.   Thanks,   Nice Kid!   Vic

Quote from: Mario on February 13, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
Now all the guys with the Battery drift problem does it always drift the same way?

When the kid battery voltage drifts does it always drift up (displayed as a higher voltage) or always down (displayed as a lower number) or is it just random?

Mario

Mario,

The kid is always reading lower voltage than actual.

Notice that there are some updated and new-ish Documents for the Kid on the MidNite Solar site:

http://www.midnitesolar.com/documents.php?productCat_ID=43&productCatName=Charge Controllers - KID&model=MNKID-M-W or MNKID-M-B&product_ID=531&act=products (http://www.midnitesolar.com/documents.php?productCat_ID=43&productCatName=Charge%20Controllers%20-%20KID&model=MNKID-M-W%20or%20MNKID-M-B&product_ID=531&act=products)

Couple of things regarding the Kid Manual;
It appears that the wiring diagrams have been cleaned up a bit as individual diagrams on the above page.   But in the slightly revised Kid manual  'Prelinimary ... P10'  wiring diagrams still have the few slight errors.   These are on some the Wiring Diagram pages in the manual.  Some of the diagrams do not quite have the negative connection to the battery quite connected.   In these cases,  the negative connections STOPS at the edge of the battery box.  No big deal,  it is obvious where this connection is headed.

In addition,  believe that there should be advice in the part of the manual discussing connections to the Kid that  The battery negative,  and the PV negative leads MUST NOT BE CONNECTED to each other in the system wiring.  The Kid CC needs this separation to operate correctly (this was the mistake I made,  as the Kid replaced another CC,  which did not care in the least about this connection to a common Neg Buss outside of the Kid).

I did note the added advice about both battery and PV negative must be connected,  but should state that no connection between these negative busses should be made outside of the Kid CC (IMHO).

FWIW,  looks like the Kid is now becoming an adolescent!   Good Kid!   Thanks,  Vic

All great stuff here. The things that have been brought up here are so much better than when we did the Classic beta units. You guys have all changed the way we will be doing beta units in the future!
We have increased the length of some of the KID buttons. I'm not sure when production parts show up, but the tooling is done and samples work very well.
We have changed the plastic window covering the LCD. IT is now flat. That will help eliminate the distortion.
Wiring diagrams will leave to Doug and Ryan.
Doug just made a sticker that goes on the terminal block that says not to connect the minuses together.
We will put the limits of the functions in the manual.
(Doug). Not sure Mario is done yet though.
I like the idea of charging a couple of batteries with one KID. You can bulk charge the main house battery bank and let the load output charge a starting battery. I do not know what voltage drop the load circuit will see as compared to the main output. This is a cool feature that needs to go in the manual as soon as we figure it out. Mario is working on current limit for the load circuit now. State of charge from the WB Jr. comes next!
Here is a good one to comment on......We have a potential customer that wants to run these in a hot climate. The regular KID is only a 20 amp controller in 40C ambient. That just sounded wimpy, so I asked Mike to rig up a small fan into the back and make the exit holes over the inductor. This turned out to work very well. I can't remember exactly now, but the KID did 30 or 35 amps at 40C with that little fan like what is inside the Classic.
How much would it do at normal ambients? Probably 40 amps. By the way, 20AWG wire is rated at 40C in industrial applications, so we may have a fan option in the future that will give you an additional 10 amps or so.
Cool huh?

Quote from: Bunkie314 on February 13, 2014, 10:07:27 PM

Quote from: Mario on February 13, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
Now all the guys with the Battery drift problem does it always drift the same way?

When the kid battery voltage drifts does it always drift up (displayed as a higher voltage) or always down (displayed as a lower number) or is it just random?

Mario

The kid is always reading lower voltage than actual.

same here, always lower

Quote from: Robin on February 14, 2014, 12:40:19 AM
...
Here is a good one to comment on......We have a potential customer that wants to run these in a hot climate. The regular KID is only a 20 amp controller in 40C ambient. That just sounded wimpy, so I asked Mike to rig up a small fan into the back and make the exit holes over the inductor. This turned out to work very well. I can't remember exactly now, but the KID did 30 or 35 amps at 40C with that little fan like what is inside the Classic.
How much would it do at normal ambients? Probably 40 amps. By the way, 20AWG wire is rated at 40C in industrial applications, so we may have a fan option in the future that will give you an additional 10 amps or so.
Cool huh?

I really like this development.  Those that want  the max 30A output from a noiseless KID get what they want.
An attachable fan (or even one of those peltier devices) to improve cooling and the bonus is up to 40A output.  8)
Cool indeed...

dgd

Quote from: Robin on February 14, 2014, 12:40:19 AM
we may have a fan option in the future that will give you an additional 10 amps or so.
Cool huh?

Could you do that with a Classic... offer a derated Classic without a fan? 
disclaimer: I haven't a clue what it costs to put a fan in the Classic, or how derated it would be without a fan.

--vtMaps

Quote from: dapdan on February 13, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
Mario,

Roger that... do not chanbe system voltage on the fly. I guess one would have to manually increase or decrease voltage parameter whenever one changes system voltages. It would be nice if the kid automatically senses a different voltage and ask you to confirm it and then all set points(float, absorb, eq) would then change and if one want to tweak the voltages they would already be there abouts.

Ok Mario, you have addressed all my queries here except one. Thanks. I may have ran into a problem with one of the beta kids where during fw upload it stop responding and all the leds are on and the lcd screen is blank with the top row all ink blocks. The first kid went smoothly and the second one did not right after the upload of bootlaoder. When it was complete(green led stop blinking) and after the power cycle it did not report "bootloader 2.1" and just locked up with all leds on as reported. Is it bricked now?

Cheers....
Damani

Damani
To change the battery voltage from a 12v bank to a 24v bank you simply go to the Tech menu and do a factory restore. It will pop up and ask is this a 24 volt battery (or 12 depending on which its hooked to)

As far as the bricked unit let me Kick Mario again he must have missed it

Ryan

Quote from: vtmaps on February 14, 2014, 05:44:30 AM

Quote from: Robin on February 14, 2014, 12:40:19 AM
we may have a fan option in the future that will give you an additional 10 amps or so.
Cool huh?

Could you do that with a Classic... offer a derated Classic without a fan? 
disclaimer: I haven't a clue what it costs to put a fan in the Classic, or how derated it would be without a fan.

--vtMaps

We have tried that with the Classic and it just is not designed for convection cooling. If memory serves it was about half the output but it has been a long time.

Ryan

Quote from: Vic on February 13, 2014, 10:20:37 PM
Notice that there are some updated and new-ish Documents for the Kid on the MidNite Solar site:

http://www.midnitesolar.com/documents.php?productCat_ID=43&productCatName=Charge Controllers - KID&model=MNKID-M-W or MNKID-M-B&product_ID=531&act=products (http://www.midnitesolar.com/documents.php?productCat_ID=43&productCatName=Charge%20Controllers%20-%20KID&model=MNKID-M-W%20or%20MNKID-M-B&product_ID=531&act=products)

Couple of things regarding the Kid Manual;
It appears that the wiring diagrams have been cleaned up a bit as individual diagrams on the above page.   But in the slightly revised Kid manual  'Prelinimary ... P10'  wiring diagrams still have the few slight errors.   These are on some the Wiring Diagram pages in the manual.  Some of the diagrams do not quite have the negative connection to the battery quite connected.   In these cases,  the negative connections STOPS at the edge of the battery box.  No big deal,  it is obvious where this connection is headed.

In addition,  believe that there should be advice in the part of the manual discussing connections to the Kid that  The battery negative,  and the PV negative leads MUST NOT BE CONNECTED to each other in the system wiring.  The Kid CC needs this separation to operate correctly (this was the mistake I made,  as the Kid replaced another CC,  which did not care in the least about this connection to a common Neg Buss outside of the Kid).

I did note the added advice about both battery and PV negative must be connected,  but should state that no connection between these negative busses should be made outside of the Kid CC (IMHO).

FWIW,  looks like the Kid is now becoming an adolescent!   Good Kid!   Thanks,  Vic

Vic;

I fixed your link.

Tom

Midnite,

[
[/quote]
Damani
To change the battery voltage from a 12v bank to a 24v bank you simply go to the Tech menu and do a factory restore. It will pop up and ask is this a 24 volt battery (or 12 depending on which its hooked to)

As far as the bricked unit let me Kick Mario again he must have missed it

Ryan
[/quote]

Thanks Ryan. I tried to charge a 12 battery this morning while I was bulk charging a 24v bank. This is a no no since the load fuse popped immediately. Apparently that automotive fuse is only good for 12v loads and nothing else. I am not sure what the rating of the fuse was because when I removed it there were no markings on it in realation to voltage. Most automotive fuse are rated up to 32v are these different?. Is it possible to charge a 24v battery through the load function anyway?

Thinking about it as I drove this morning...it would be nice to be able to do opportunistic charging on other banks when the controller starts to cut back on it charging regime on the main bank as it progresses through it bulk stage so that all available power is use and not wasted...that would be sweet.

Cheers...
Damani

Oh I am confused? You have the Kid hooked to a 24 volt battery? and tried to hook a 12v battery to the load terminals? This for sure would blow something as there is no current limit on the load circuit and it runs at battery voltage too.

What I have been wondering is if you could connect the Kid to a 24 volt battery for the input and use it to charge a 12 v battery ?   Or would it not be able to limit the input current?

Ryan,

That would be correct. I was bulk charging a 24v bank and tried to charge a 12v bank through the load function and the load fuse popped. So since it runs at battery voltage I should be able to charge/maintain a 24v battery bank through the load function. However the fuse seems to have no voltage rating on it. If it was rated for 32v it should be able to pass current to a 24v bank attached to the load terminals.

Cheers...
Damani

Sorry, guys, you cannot charge a 12 volt battery directly from a 24 volt battery without something in between to limit the current like a light bulb / resistor at the minimum.

Otherwise the 24 volt bank will dump all the power it can into the 12 volt bank trying to bring it up to whatever voltage the 24 volt bank is at. Hundreds if not thousands of amps until something fails or fusing opens.

I discovered this decades ago trying to jump start my old 6 volt tractor from my pickup 12 volt battery. Large, ugly, vigorous loss of integrity of the 6 volt battery. Spelled explosion.

You could use a crude system with a 12 volt bulb in series with the 12 volt battery but that has issues as well like over voltage on the 12 volt battery if not watched.

I would not suggest this for most folks as there are too many ways to get into trouble and it is a bit of a hack.

Tom

Well it is not a voltage issue it is a current issue. The 12v Battery is drawing unlimited current. Of course you can not charge a battery off the load circuit. So the Fuse basically saved the Kid from a fiery death. So that shows the fuses do there job  :)

Ok...no current limiting through load function. Well at least the surface mount fuse is a good design. Therefore whilst charging a 24v bank one should be able to attach another 24v battery to the load then as this was done already for 12v, or should I expect another blown fuse. Alos if one had a sufficient discharged 24v battery and one was bulk charging a main 24v banks one could potentioally have a large potential difference and maybe large current flow through the load circuits. Is it advisable to attempt connecting 24v or 48 batteries whilst charging a similar main bank.

Cheers...
Damani

I wasn't asking about using it to charge a 12 volt battery from the load terminals but rather to connect the 24volt battery to the PV input and charge a 12v battery that way. If you can hook up more than 30 amps of PV on a Kid and it will current regulate the output  wouldn't it do that same thing  from a 24 volt battery bank to step it down and charge 12v ?

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 14, 2014, 12:23:21 PM
I wasn't asking about using it to charge a 12 volt battery from the load terminals but rather to connect the 24volt battery to the PV input and charge a 12v battery that way. If you can hook up more than 30 amps of PV on a Kid and it will current regulate the output  wouldn't it do that same thing  from a 24 volt battery bank to step it down and charge 12v ?

No kid in my hands, but did it with a SS morningstar to maintain a propane gen 12V starting battery (x2 parallel) from the main 48V bank and it works great since two or three monthes.
Erik

Quote from: dapdan on February 13, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
Mario,

Roger that... do not chanbe system voltage on the fly. I guess one would have to manually increase or decrease voltage parameter whenever one changes system voltages. It would be nice if the kid automatically senses a different voltage and ask you to confirm it and then all set points(float, absorb, eq) would then change and if one want to tweak the voltages they would already be there abouts.

Ok Mario, you have addressed all my queries here except one. Thanks. I may have ran into a problem with one of the beta kids where during fw upload it stop responding and all the leds are on and the lcd screen is blank with the top row all ink blocks. The first kid went smoothly and the second one did not right after the upload of bootlaoder. When it was complete(green led stop blinking) and after the power cycle it did not report "bootloader 2.1" and just locked up with all leds on as reported. Is it bricked now?

Cheers....
Damani

Here is what you do: press and hold SETUP button and turn on battery breaker to the Kid and see if anything comes up on the display?
If It says FIRMWARE UPDATE then Try it again.... bootloader_updater_512.out  first, If nothing happens then the unit is bricked and we need to RMA it. Let us know.
Mario

Mario,

I tried that and same result...nothing.

Cheers...
Damani

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 14, 2014, 12:23:21 PM
I wasn't asking about using it to charge a 12 volt battery from the load terminals but rather to connect the 24volt battery to the PV input and charge a 12v battery that way. If you can hook up more than 30 amps of PV on a Kid and it will current regulate the output  wouldn't it do that same thing  from a 24 volt battery bank to step it down and charge 12v ?

To answer the question.... the kid like any other charger is meant to charge a battery from a source like Solar, Wind or Hydro. the kid does have current limit protection, but charging from a higher battery voltage to a lower battery voltage it WILL NOT BE UNDER WARRANTY.

Mario

Quote from: dapdan on February 14, 2014, 03:04:01 PM
Mario,

I tried that and same result...nothing.

Cheers...
Damani

So we need to RMA that unit because it is bricked.
Ryan how do we do that?

Mario

Quote from: Mario on February 14, 2014, 04:36:51 PM
To answer the question.... the kid like any other charger is meant to charge a battery from a source like Solar, Wind or Hydro. the kid does have current limit protection, but charging from a higher battery voltage to a lower battery voltage it WILL NOT BE UNDER WARRANTY.

Mario

Hmm, even the Super Lifetime Beta Warranty? :o

Kidding. I get that it is a Bad Thing (TM). ::)

Tom

Yup, and it will make Morning Star HAPPY... :o

Actually I suspect if it is in slow track mode and current limit is set it would work just fine. Ok now you got me interested I will try this next spare pair of minutes I have. I am still thinking of taking my 120vac rectified genset and stepping it down to by 50% and trying that  8) Got to find the limit somewhere  ::) Plus I still do don't know what the Kid FETs smell like when they burn. And its fun to make Mario nervous  ;D

Quote from: Halfcrazy on February 14, 2014, 05:29:37 PM
Actually I suspect if it is in slow track mode and current limit is set it would work just fine. Ok now you got me interested I will try this next spare pair of minutes I have. I am still thinking of taking my 120vac rectified genset and stepping it down to by 50% and trying that  8) Got to find the limit somewhere  ::) Plus I still do don't know what the Kid FETs smell like when they burn. And its fun to make Mario nervous  ;D

Be sure to take video from multiple angles.. Fire Emitting Transistors are fun to watch!

I have to admit to different uses of the load side. I connected the old Go Power PWM charger I had that auto senses battery voltage and connected the input of it to the kid load output. Then took the output of the PWM to two car batteries. It is actually working very well an gave me load output voltage and amp info from the load side of the kid. Used the day light features to turn it on and off at float and LB cutoff at 13.1 Volts. Since I am using it for my car hauler I wanted a way to keep the race car battery charged.  Its working great. I suppose the approach would solve the higher voltage bank issue as long as the input of the other charger accepted kid output voltage  I'm 12 volts on both battery sets. Well, that is if you have one laying around. I have seen up to 3 amps going to the car batteries through the PWM charger and the kid just cruising along holding float charge.

Quote from: Bunkie314 on February 14, 2014, 10:13:41 PM
I have to admit to different uses of the load side. I connected the old Go Power PWM charger I had that auto senses battery voltage and connected the input of it to the kid load output. Then took the output of the PWM to two car batteries. It is actually working very well an gave me load output voltage and amp info from the load side of the kid. Used the day light features to turn it on and off at float and LB cutoff at 13.1 Volts. Since I am using it for my car hauler I wanted a way to keep the race car battery charged.  Its working great. I suppose the approach would solve the higher voltage bank issue as long as the input of the other charger accepted kid output voltage  I'm 12 volts on both battery sets. Well, that is if you have one laying around. I have seen up to 3 amps going to the car batteries through the PWM charger and the kid just cruising along holding float charge.

The only problem I see with this approach is that the PWM controller will output the correct voltage BUT it wastes power.  If the main bank is 24v and the load battery is 12v then the current out at 12v is the same as the current in at 24v. It will likely just burn it off as heat.
I have tried a low cost DC to DC converter (buck converter) from ebay/china and although only rated for 2 amps output, it is about 93% efficient. Ideal for small charge for 12v battery on KID's load terminals. I wll be trying a 10amp 24v to 12v converter later and a small constant current charger for small gel batteries.
We do need a config setting for the KID to specify a load output current MAX.
dgd

The reason I was asking about using the Kid as something of a step down converter is I was thinking of getting one of these to run 12v loads from 24v battery
http://sepbatteries.com/samlex-24vdc-12vdc-converter-sdc-23 (http://sepbatteries.com/samlex-24vdc-12vdc-converter-sdc-23)
or the 30 amp model that costs a bit more.
Samlex makes good stuff and also it is 13.8 v out.

I believe I tried using the Morningstar Sunsaver MPPT to charge 12v from 24v but think I gave it up because it made too much noise on the ham radio's. Guess  I should try it again to confirm - it has been awhile.

There is always the question on how to best run 12v loads - use quality 12v switching power supply , use a DC/DC converter, or have the separate solar system charge 12v battery which is what I do now. The inverter to power supply is probably the least efficient, then it might be a toss up in efficiency between the DC to DC converter and a Kid powered solar system. And then there is the mentioned RF noise issues. I haven't really tested that out yet with the Kid - will have to shut off all the other equipment and tune around on the HF one of these days to find out. My guess is that if the Kid is quiet , that means the Morningstar Tristar MPPT controller is going out of service  because it does make noise - it actually isn't needed right now but was aquired before the Classic was on the market and it has always worked very well.

Larry 

Quote from: TomW on February 14, 2014, 08:14:21 AM
...

Vic;

I fixed your link.

Tom

Tom  !!   Thank you very much,   do not know what link wound up in that post ...  99% of the time when posting a link,  return to the site immediately and test the link.  That time was called away,  and forgot to do the test.  Thanks.

And Robin,  thank you for the detail on some Kid buttons being made longer,  good idea.

Also the label on the Kid's I/O terminals advising against connecting PV and battery negative leads together outside of the Kid is another very good idea.   Sill,  might not hurt to also mention it in the manual,  where the drawing/photo of the terminals is located (in case anyone reads the manual!).

Looks like you are making great progress,  and know that the Kid will be very well-received.   Thanks all,    Vic

Quote from: Robin on February 14, 2014, 12:40:19 AM
The regular KID is only a 20 amp controller in 40C ambient. That just sounded wimpy, so I asked Mike to rig up a small fan into the back and make the exit holes over the inductor. This turned out to work very well. I can't remember exactly now, but the KID did 30 or 35 amps at 40C with that little fan like what is inside the Classic.
How much would it do at normal ambients? Probably 40 amps. By the way, 20AWG wire is rated at 40C in industrial applications, so we may have a fan option in the future that will give you an additional 10 amps or so.
Cool huh?

Robin,
Didn't I read the Beta KIDs use 10AWG as the max size wire?  And if so, isn't its rating 30 Amps max?  I would love to get 40 amps out of the Kid, but I do not want to burn anything up, I like it too much.  Please let me know if I miss read anything. 

Quote from: Robin on February 14, 2014, 12:40:19 AM
Here is a good one to comment on......We have a potential customer that wants to run these in a hot climate. The regular KID is only a 20 amp controller in 40C ambient. That just sounded wimpy, so I asked Mike to rig up a small fan into the back and make the exit holes over the inductor. This turned out to work very well. I can't remember exactly now, but the KID did 30 or 35 amps at 40C with that little fan like what is inside the Classic.
How much would it do at normal ambients? Probably 40 amps. By the way, 20AWG wire is rated at 40C in industrial applications, so we may have a fan option in the future that will give you an additional 10 amps or so.
Cool huh?

Just looking at this again...  Would it really take much modification?
If the KID is attached to the wall mounting plastic frame then its possible to not have the back cover on the KID. It would not be too difficult to have a hole for a fan in that mounting bracket and force air into the KID innards with some exit holes at bottom of frame.
Better still a somewhat taller mounting frame, maybe an aluminum casting with a top extension for a
small fan.

So what is holding the MAX output to battery at 30A? Is it just the fuse rating or is there a limit imposed by the firmware?

dgd

Mario,
This morning I observed the KID for a while as I relocating some cables.
Its a bright sunny day with some broken clouds.

PV Classic is about 1800watts from 2.1Kw PV array and when clouds go past drops to 500 to 700 watts for 2 to 20 seconds then back up to over 1800 again.

The KID has 700W array in clear sun but I'm never seeing it reporting more than 350 watts output
When cloud moves over the KID detects the reducing current and goes from BULKMPPT to RESTING and array voltage rises from about 85v to 105v (90v mpv)
The resting always lasts at least 3 to 6 minutes before relay clicks and it rushes back up to over 300 watts. Next clouds same again.
I appears the KID is more in RESTING state then in BULKMPPT
I'm not 100% positive this is actually related to cloud movement as its a very regular almost cyclic occurance. Almost as if there is a timer count behind it.
I also see the top green LED is always illuminated.

Although the Classic soon gets the bank into Absorb the KID does the same in ABSORB, it cycles between ABSORB and RESTING states.

The KID seems to have a long RESTING delay before resuming MPPT even though the clouds moved away and the PVs are in clear sunlight. This delay is way too long.

Any thoughts on this?

dgd

Dgd,

Which fw do you have installed in the kid. I have never noticed that type of behavior before. I will monitor it more closely to see if I can observe any similar behavior.

Cheers...
Damani

Its 1712
however, I think I may have sort  of found a reason for this
I just noticed the KID in FLOAT making 272Watts and when I touched it it was real hot
Looking at temps 42 for cpu and 41 for pcb and according to my temp probe the heat sink fins were at 52 degrees. Now thats hot to the touch.
Ambient temp earlier when I noticed the MPPT to RESTING cycling was over 30, now 27.
So I am wondering now if the KID was too hot and it was going into RESTING to cool down then restarting BULKMPPT hence what appeared to be cycling on a regular basis.
I also remember this morning the Classic 150 fan was running constantly.

We should have another hot day tomorrow so I will be watching the KID and if same happens then I will get a boxer fan rigged up to push air through it (with KID back off!)
if this is the reason then I will get the plastic support mounting drlled out for air flow.

dgd

Dgd,

Are you refering to degree C? How is it your power room is so warm at 30C. Is it electronics plus external ambient. I am in the Caribbean and this time of the year it is usually cooler with ambient temps avg around 28C with real feel less as the wind is usually above 15mph.

Cheers...
Damani

Yes degrees C.   In Auckland New Zealand we are in summer and today max ambient in almost windless conditions was up near 30 by midday ans stayed there until 5pm. High humidity too.
My battery/power room is usually cooler but today it was barely below outside ambient.
I was thinking that even with a fan all I would be doing is pushing hot air around.
It's still so hot after midnight it's difficult to sleep :(

Quote from: dgd on February 20, 2014, 06:43:19 PM
Mario,
This morning I observed the KID for a while as I relocating some cables.
Its a bright sunny day with some broken clouds.

PV Classic is about 1800watts from 2.1Kw PV array and when clouds go past drops to 500 to 700 watts for 2 to 20 seconds then back up to over 1800 again.


The KID has 700W array in clear sun but I'm never seeing it reporting more than 350 watts output
When cloud moves over the KID detects the reducing current and goes from BULKMPPT to RESTING and array voltage rises from about 85v to 105v (90v mpv)
The resting always lasts at least 3 to 6 minutes before relay clicks and it rushes back up to over 300 watts. Next clouds same again.
I appears the KID is more in RESTING state then in BULKMPPT
I'm not 100% positive this is actually related to cloud movement as its a very regular almost cyclic occurance. Almost as if there is a timer count behind it.
I also see the top green LED is always illuminated.

Although the Classic soon gets the bank into Absorb the KID does the same in ABSORB, it cycles between ABSORB and RESTING states.

The KID seems to have a long RESTING delay before resuming MPPT even though the clouds moved away and the PVs are in clear sunlight. This delay is way too long.

Any thoughts on this?

dgd

Good observation I have an Idea of whats is going on with dgds unit, and yes it does have to do with the sudden change in light available, so when clouds come in the voltage is dropping from 105v to 85v. I will have to fix that it is too sensitive.

Look for another firmware update here soon.

Mario,
Thanks for your reply.
I have been observing the KID for the last few hours and its changing state between BULKMPPT and RESTING. The resting periods can be up to half an hour.
The weather is almost complete thin cloud cover but very bright with sun position easy to see.
When in BULKMPPT the KID is producing over 350 watts. Then for what appears no reason it just clicks off and goes into RESTING state.
KID temps are 23 and 24 c
There seems no way of forcing it to do an mppt scan, no combination of button pressing, is there such a combination?

I would estimate from 10am this morning to 3pm this afternoon that 70% resting 30% BULKMPPT and the brightness has varied very little - Classic is varying between 1900 watts and 1300 watts on BULKMPPT.

Look eagerly forward to next firmware update that hopefully fixes this. :)

dgd

KID has spent today mostly resting. Only a power off on will restart it. Then bulk mppt lasts only minutes before it goes to resting.
It's only at power on time that it seems to test the inputs for pv power then after a few seconds goes to bulkmppt. Once it clicks off into resting then it seems to have a long delay before retesting input for power hence most of day is in resting
later... With less sun/input power available the KID still rests but restarts after about 10 minutes but its a cyclic resting-bulkmppt-resting pattern

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iduRs53tIuI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iduRs53tIuI)

dgd

Max setting mode in the LCD menu locks the display up aftergoing into float. Just after the display goes into power saving the top line goes to the squares and the bottom line is blank. Other settings in the LCD menu, "ECO" & "NRML" did not appear to have this behavior.

Temperature compensation for the Eq function does not appear operational yet.

Quote from: dgd on February 21, 2014, 10:05:35 PM
Mario,
Thanks for your reply.
I have been observing the KID for the last few hours and its changing state between BULKMPPT and RESTING. The resting periods can be up to half an hour.
The weather is almost complete thin cloud cover but very bright with sun position easy to see.
When in BULKMPPT the KID is producing over 350 watts. Then for what appears no reason it just clicks off and goes into RESTING state.
KID temps are 23 and 24 c
There seems no way of forcing it to do an mppt scan, no combination of button pressing, is there such a combination?

I would estimate from 10am this morning to 3pm this afternoon that 70% resting 30% BULKMPPT and the brightness has varied very little - Classic is varying between 1900 watts and 1300 watts on BULKMPPT.

Look eagerly forward to next firmware update that hopefully fixes this. :)

dgd

Mario
Wouldn't the reason for resting tell us why DGDs Kid is resting?

Ryan

Mario,
My KID kept running all day without going into resting, started up this morning, bulkmppt to absorb and now in float
Its a hot day but I fired up the air-con in power room so ambient was about 20c and the temps in the KID maxed at 37c for cpu and 34c pcb.
I also reduced the pv input so the max input to KID never exceeded 120w.
Tomorrow is expected to be a 30c plus day so in the morning I will turn off air-con and increase PV input again to allow over 400Watts and see if the resting issue returns
dgd

Quote from: Bunkie314 on February 23, 2014, 05:15:30 PM
Max setting mode in the LCD menu locks the display up aftergoing into float. Just after the display goes into power saving the top line goes to the squares and the bottom line is blank. Other settings in the LCD menu, "ECO" & "NRML" did not appear to have this behavior.

Temperature compensation for the Eq function does not appear operational yet.

Bunkie314, you have a unit with a bad display connection , that is why you get the Top line with blocks randomly, its just coincidence if it happens in the same menu/function.
we are going to need to RMA your unit,
Firmware 1703 was designed to single out the kids with bad display connections..... and Bunkie you have one.

Mario

Quote from: Mario on February 24, 2014, 09:04:56 PM

Quote from: Bunkie314 on February 23, 2014, 05:15:30 PM
Max setting mode in the LCD menu locks the display up aftergoing into float. Just after the display goes into power saving the top line goes to the squares and the bottom line is blank. Other settings in the LCD menu, "ECO" & "NRML" did not appear to have this behavior.

Temperature compensation for the Eq function does not appear operational yet.

Bunkie314, you have a unit with a bad display connection , that is why you get the Top line with blocks randomly, its just coincidence if it happens in the same menu/function.
we are going to need to RMA your unit,
Firmware 1703 was designed to single out the kids with bad display connections..... and Bunkie you have one.

Mario

So email me ryan@midnitesolar.com and I will issue an RMA so we can get you fixed up

Guess Midnite inspired the competition ( Morningstar)  to come out with a 30 amp model now too. Looks like they just scaled down their other model so no LCD or load control.

Yes and I just heard it is $477 msrp?

Quote from: Halfcrazy on February 26, 2014, 04:15:21 PM
Yes and I just heard it is $477 msrp?

Well Morningstar makes good controllers but they don't crank out firmware updates with new features every other week to keep us tech hungry junkies satiated.  Plus gotta get the add on's to do control which certainly drives up the price. I couldn't find their specs listed yet - was curious if the Kid will handle more watts in like the Classic does because of the feature that clamps the exteme high VOC in cold weather - forget what you call that.  With that feature my Classic will handle 2700 watts compared to 2000 for other controllers in the class.

Will the Kid have that extreme cold VOC feature too ?

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 26, 2014, 06:44:26 PM
was curious if the Kid will handle more watts in like the Classic does because of the feature that clamps the exteme high VOC in cold weather - forget what you call that.

HyperVOC

Quote from: Halfcrazy on February 23, 2014, 05:52:49 PM
Mario
Wouldn't the reason for resting tell us why DGDs Kid is resting?

Ryan

Do you have a list of the RFR numbers?
I'm assuming the battery->absorb->setup+enter->rt arrow->top line leftmost number - is the RFR

dgd

the RFR list is the same as the classic

Mario

Quote from: Mario on February 28, 2014, 12:58:00 PM
the RFR list is the same as the classic

Mario

The RFR I see after these resting events when there is plenty solar power is 15
From the Classic list of RFRs this is low light #4

Dgd

My beta KID has had an interesting weekend. Hot days and clear/broken clouds. The KID got back into the
BULKMPPT and RESTING stages cycling most of the last 3 days. Resting lasts up to an hour or more with bulkmppt lucky to last 15 minutes
The RFR after state changes to resting is 15. Always the same RFR.
The fet and cpu temps were about mid 50s all day, heat sink fins hot to touch
The max power input I could get was 440 watts from a 700watt array but that was probably because the PVs were hot enough to fry an egg (I did this but bacon would not fry!).
Cooler day today more cloud cover no unexpected resting from KID but power low as expected under 100w.
Waiting on sunny cold day to see if I can get the KID up to 30 amps output.
dgd

OK, just updated to FW Rev 1713, resting with no input connected the battery voltage tenth digit is wigging out. Take a look at the vid here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCJ0Zg9ylvU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCJ0Zg9ylvU)

Rev 1709 is rock solid, no issues with the display at all. Went back to Rev 1709 and the display is fine, stable. Back and forth between 1709 and 1713 several times. 1709 stable, 1713 unstable.

My display does that as well and I don't. View it as unstable.

Cheers...
Damani

I happen to be running 2X Kids. One I upgraded to 1713 and it does this blinking thing. Looks like its switching between .4 and .3 here I just assumed it was on the fence on whether it was .3 or .4?

The other has 1714 from Midnite on it and does not seem to do this. They are on separate systems.

Not sure if it is a bug or what?

It is curious.

Tom

.

wait as second....1714 is out?

Damani

Quote from: dapdan on March 04, 2014, 08:32:24 AM
wait as second....1714 is out?

Damani

Damani;

Not sure it is "out" but I got an RMA Kid with 1714 on it. Ryan or boB will have to address whether it is out or not.

Tom

Tom

1714 was questionable. I am testing 1721 and expect to release it today. It has SOC% in it for the WBjr and some fixes for the Display etc. Stay tuned I will likely pop it up here in a few hours for everyone to beta test. Ah heck here it is for now attached here.

Quote from: Halfcrazy on March 04, 2014, 09:39:30 AM
1714 was questionable. I am testing 1721 and expect to release it today. It has SOC% in it for the WBjr and some fixes for the Display etc. Stay tuned I will likely pop it up here in a few hours for everyone to beta test. Ah heck here it is for now attached here.

Ryan;

Slipped it on to both of them here and if I forgot to mention it, I love the drag and drop upgrade method.

1721 seems to be doing what it should. No display flicker.

Thanks for posting it.

Tom

Yes 1721 is out.
now and the flickering might have to do with the rounding I will take a look at that.

1721 whats new:
Bug fixes
LCD bug fixes
SOC added to use with WBJR
SOC set up located in Main Menu->Aux-> SETUP button.

Thanks to boB for the help with this code!
Mario

Quote from: Mario on March 04, 2014, 01:29:55 PM
Yes 1721 is out.
now and the flickering might have to do with the rounding I will take a look at that.

1721 whats new:
Bug fixes
LCD bug fixes
SOC added to use with WBJR
SOC set up located in Main Menu->Aux-> SETUP button.

Thanks to boB for the help with this code!
Mario

1721 loaded. Still getting the flickering 1/10 volt digit but instead of the blocks that make up the digit flickering in and out it's now trying to go up/down a tenth so yes the rounding or sensitivity.

1721 loaded earlier this morning. Just looked at RFR and its 0 instead of the usual 15 so it appears none of the resting events so far.
The timer display looks really good too.
thanks Mario

Mario,
This 1721 is a lot better, still getting the RFR 15 when it goes to resting for apparently no reason, but now it restarts within a second or two. So the overall effect of the resting is negligible.
The in voltage display on the RFR screen second line is not displaying any number for tenths of volt after the decimal point, just looks odd with a voltage number, decimal point, then blank.

Please also consider a method for setting the clock (TIMER) and (please please) an energy kwH number somewhere that resets to zero on clock moving to 00:00:00
And maybe for those of us not interested in attaching a WBjr to the KID, some alternative AUX outputs such as Float high, Diversion etc.
dgd

Midnite,

Loaded the new fw(1721) yesterday and started to monitor the kid this afternoon.
This is my setup:

2 series strings of 130w 12v panels. Total of 520w. I charge either 12v or 24v with this set up. I was charging 12v today and the kid was maxed out with the orange OVR light flickering. Within a 10min span of observation whilst in bulk the output plummet to zero and then 1 sec later went back to max output of 30amp. I had just connected it to the batteries so the controller was not over heating. It did this 3 times in a 10min span. In fact I am going to get the fet temp now...CPU 48c, FETs 46c.

Cheers...
Damani

Hi Damani,

This may have nothing to do with what you are seeing on your KID,   but,  The Classic will do the same/similar thing when it sweeps.  The output current can be seen to momentarily go t zero,  and immediately return to producing full power for the conditions.

What you are seeing may not be what I have seen on Classics here,  of course ...   FWIW.     Vic

Vic,

I will consider what you are saying and confirm the weather condotions next time I am observing the kid.

Thanks...
Damani

I finally got to the point where I could install software in the Kid this morning. No problems.

I decided to make a peel and stick label with the serial number and put it on the front of the Kid, just in the case I had problems down the road and needed it for service advice. The label would not stick anywhere on the outside black surface. A dab of silicon under the label worked well.

Afterwards, the Kid was left on my workbench for a few weeks and it accumulated a bit of dust by then. The dust didn't stick to the surface either. Less dust and debris, more cooling. Good thinking Midnite! It must be paint or mold release? Anyway, great idea.

Midnite,

Whatever happened to the complimentary wbjr that was supposed to be shipped out to the beta testers...or has that died a natural death?

Cheers...
Damani

Damani, I got mine ...  send Ryan@Midnite.com  (?)  a quick note to remind him. 

Ok West, Thanks. Will do.

Cheers...
Damani

Quote from: dapdan on March 06, 2014, 01:21:32 PM
Midnite,

Whatever happened to the complimentary wbjr that was supposed to be shipped out to the beta testers...or has that died a natural death?

Cheers...
Damani

I got one, too. Probablyt just need to rattle someones cubicle.  8)

Tom

Quote from: dapdan on March 06, 2014, 06:28:58 AM
Vic,

I will consider what you are saying and confirm the weather condotions next time I am observing the kid.

Thanks...
Damani

Do you hear a relay click when this occurs? and does the state change from mppt (or absorb, float etc) to resting? then its resumes charging.
Since it seems nobody else has seen this random resting state change I was thinking it was my beta unit that had a problem. I have not seen any 'down to zero amps' mppt sweeps, yet!
dgd

dgd,

No. I have not observed anything you have described. I can say that when it drops to zero amps it stays in the bulk mode or whatever mode it maybe in at the time. It does not go to resting.

Cheers...
Damani

dgd,

In my observations on the Classic,  it stays in the previous charge state,  the relay does NOT click,  and if one is not carefully watching on the MNGP (in my case)  it is very easy to miss that it has occurred.

Am almost certain this is when the CC does a miniSweep.   When listening to the CC on an HF radio,  to one of the CC's "Birdies",  one can hear these Sweep events.  It lasts about a second,  and occurs about once per minute in Solar mode.  These observed events may only occur in Bulk ...  forget.

I am ASSUMING that the Kid's MPPT function is similar to the Classic,   etc.

I may be way off base,  however.    FWIW,   Vic

Quote from: dapdan on March 06, 2014, 04:04:43 PM
dgd,

No. I have not observed anything you have described. I can say that when it drops to zero amps it stays in the bulk mode or whatever mode it maybe in at the time. It does not go to resting.

Cheers...
Damani

ok, thanks, I think its just my KID so I will retire it until a few more firmware releases occur. I need to get some power from this pv array so back to the Lite150 for a while.
One advantage of the KID is that to see what its doing I'm up and down stairs to my basement garage many times a day and it don't half keep you fit  :o
With the Lite in place with my other Classics I can monitor from local app  :D
dgd

Vic,

yes my Classics behave exactly like this and as you say this is the normal mppt sweeping.
I have not really observed the KID doing this but assume that it must be.

My KID problem is definitely a change of state from mppt to resting, relay clicking it into off state then after a second or so it restarts. Before this latest firmware release the KID would stay in resting up to an hour, now it restarts fairly promptly.

Although probably not related I also suspect there may be an issue with the power levels the KID can handle. I have hooked it to a 700watt PV array then a 1.4Kw array and in bright sunshine and seem to always get it maxing out about 440 to 480 watts. (24v battery bank)
I can see the voltage on the array rising from its normal 90v MPV to 105v which indicates,IMO, there is more power available from the array.

The KID's heatsink gets real hot so i am not sure if this is temperature related.

dgd

A new behavior I have witness twice is that at night the screen goes blank and does not display anything. I have to do a power cycle to get back the normal screen. During this hang it does nor charge because I had first discovered it one morning and the screen was blank and the kid seemed not to be operating. I can not fully confirm this as I did not check output wire with a meter.

Cheers...
Damani

Quote from: dapdan on March 06, 2014, 09:30:10 PM
A new behavior I have witness twice is that at night the screen goes blank and does not display anything. I have to do a power cycle to get back the normal screen. During this hang it does nor charge because I had first discovered it one morning and the screen was blank and the kid seemed not to be operating. I can not fully confirm this as I did not check output wire with a meter.

Cheers...
Damani

Are you running firmware rev 1722?
Mario

Quote from: Mario on March 07, 2014, 01:50:10 PM

Are you running firmware rev 1722?
Mario

Mario;

Just installed 1722 to The Kids. I got the "wavering digit" on the tenths digit on battery voltage again. It seemed to be not there in 1721 but its back now.

Plus, my LEDs only work in "run" or "test" after they boot. They run thru a cycle during boot like they should.

Just cuz its Friday and I know you love a good challenge.

Tom

Mario,

I have 1721 installed. I didn't realize there was a 1722.

Cheers...
Damani

I just installed 1722 . In the menu Battery Setpoints / Equalize it does not let me select On or Off - just says Off. I tried setup which lets me change equalize  voltage and time . Is there another menu to turn on Equalize and set up days between ? 

I finally had a nice day to try the two kids I have and the results were very interesting.

My first Kid is a Rev B black cased Kid and the other is a Rev C white Kid.  I loaded both Kids with the 1722 firmware.

I used Nine 10 watt panels (17 volt nominal) in an array trying several versions of power input for the kids.  I used a deep cycle marine battery to receive the charge.   When I used all nine in parallel (17 Volts), the white kid produced up to 81 watts, while the black kid only produced one to three watts to the batteries.  I was very surprised.   The Rev B Kid did not seem to be able to use the lower voltage to charge the battery, but Rev C Kid was readily able to use the power.  The rev B Kid had the high rate clicking going on during this test. 

Then I tried four serial sets of two panels (raising the voltage to 37 volts) and the Rev C board was still able to use the power better than the Rev B Kid by about 25-30 percent (57 - 71 Watts (This test had partial high clouding)). 

Then I went to three serial groupings of three panels each ( 52 volts nominal) and the results were again interesting.  My Rev B Kid was able to produce within three watts of the Rev C Kid.  Again around 74 watts and 71 watts with partial high clouds.

Does anyone know why the disparity? 

I also got Wizbang Jrs this week so I expect my data to be refined further after I install them.

I used an electric motor to tax the battery during these tests.  I swapped out both Kids several times during each test to confirm my results.

ok, load the lastest fw and observed the kid for several minutes. The first thing I observed is that when it does the mppt sweep(if when output drops to zero and then surges back to full ouput is when it does it sweep) it stays at zero longer than the previous code. I estimated that it stood at zero for about 2-3 seconds. I will time it the next time I am observing the kid.

Cheers...
Damani

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on March 08, 2014, 12:18:56 PM
I just installed 1722 . In the menu Battery Setpoints / Equalize it does not let me select On or Off - just says Off. I tried setup which lets me change equalize  voltage and time . Is there another menu to turn on Equalize and set up days between ? 

As of rev 1722 there is only Manual EQ, so you have to initiate an EQ when required. in future updates Auto EQ will come.

Mario

Reconnected KID today to my 24v battery bank, input is four in series 140w, 18.2v mpv PVs.
Started KID hoes to bulkmppt  and within a minute or so goes to resting, stays there for up to an hour and restarts bulkmppt for another minute or son then rests again.
See video over 5 minutes, noise in background is Classic fan running

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6RJ570NFsQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6RJ570NFsQ)

Bright day, PVs no shading.  Note the bulkmppt making over 200watts then click sound and resting state starts. After a few minutes I repowered KID and same sequence again.

Mario,  Is my KID broken? should I send it back to Midnite?

dgd

dgd,
Did you check your input voltage (VOC) and battery voltage while the Kid was not in use?  I had a similar problem and after I used a multimeter and "Calibrated" the input voltage and battery voltage, my Kids ran like a top producing far more power and all of my problems were gone.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I have inspected the wiring and tested PV output many many tiimes when this KID is going into resting. The battery voltage is always good as its also charged by a Classic 150 so too low or too high voltage is not an issue either.
i'm thinking its just a faulty Kid.
dgd

DGD,
I figured you had. I had a very similar problem with one of my Kids and yesterday Mario talked me through a (input off) calibration of the input voltage and battery voltage.  After the calibration, I was amazed at the difference in performance and the problems were gone.  On my Kid that was not showing a problem, it was making up to 15% more power after the calibration.  I would have never though a one volt calibration error could make such a difference.

Quote from: dgd on March 12, 2014, 03:44:36 AM
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I have inspected the wiring and tested PV output many many tiimes when this KID is going into resting. The battery voltage is always good as its also charged by a Classic 150 so too low or too high voltage is not an issue either.
i'm thinking its just a faulty Kid.
dgd

dgd;

I think you are missing a BIG point here.

Did you calibrate The Kid's idea of the voltages?

I just redid mine to be sure and gained some oomph from a mismatch of actual and what The Kid thought the voltages were.

Just saying it may be worth the effort to eliminate this possible known cause for degraded performance before sending it back.

Tom

Quote from: Highflyer on March 12, 2014, 11:48:09 AM
DGD,
I figured you had. I had a very similar problem with one of my Kids and yesterday Mario talked me through a (input off) calibration of the input voltage and battery voltage.  After the calibration, I was amazed at the difference in performance and the problems were gone.  On my Kid that was not showing a problem, it was making up to 15% more power after the calibration.  I would have never though a one volt calibration error could make such a difference.

How exactly did you do this recalibration ? 

Quote from: TomW on March 12, 2014, 03:35:47 PM
dgd;

I think you are missing a BIG point here.

Did you calibrate The Kid's idea of the voltages?

I just redid mine to be sure and gained some oomph from a mismatch of actual and what The Kid thought the voltages were.

Just saying it may be worth the effort to eliminate this possible known cause for degraded performance before sending it back.

Tom

Ok, I will go through the calibration and get it as accurately as I can then retest the kid.  I used the calibration tech option a couple of weeks ago and got the kid voltage readings agreeing with my Classics and the battery voltage. For input voltage I use the Fluke and calibrated so they agreed too.
But no harm in redoing this.
I really hope its something obvious as this KID spends most of its time in resting with RFR 15.
dgd

Quote from: ClassicCrazy on March 12, 2014, 04:28:42 PM

Quote from: Highflyer on March 12, 2014, 11:48:09 AM
DGD,
I figured you had. I had a very similar problem with one of my Kids and yesterday Mario talked me through a (input off) calibration of the input voltage and battery voltage.  After the calibration, I was amazed at the difference in performance and the problems were gone.  On my Kid that was not showing a problem, it was making up to 15% more power after the calibration.  I would have never though a one volt calibration error could make such a difference.

How exactly did you do this recalibration ? 

CC;

Main menu. Arrow over to right to "Tech". It is pretty straight forward.

You need a voltmeter (I used a digital one) attach meter to battery, set The Kid battery volts, do same for the input voltage.

OK the KID must be OFF before you do any calibration.... meaning no power being produced... Resting. I've had people trying to Calibrate when the unit is in Bulk Mppt/ charging, that makes it worse.

Mario

Mario,
Just to be sure, to "Turn Off" the Kid:

I go to main menu, toggle to INPUT, toggle the "*" to OFF.  Then I should see the Kid "resting" when selecting the "status" screen.  Then I can properly calibrate the Kid? 

Thanks for the lessons!!

Tom and Brian,
Thanks for your suggestions with this.
I have spent all morning and this afternoon looking at this KID.
Opened PV breaker so KID resting then recalibrated battery voltage to exact same as Fluke as Classics and 3024e inverter.
Closed breaker and calibrated input voltage after setting mode to OFF.
Opened PV breaker and set mode to SOLAR
Closed PV breaker, input voltage is low due to cloud cover, 31v, battery 26.1, goes to BULKMPPT and has 70 to 90 watts power, battery V still good, input V accurate too.
Like this for several hours, under 100W, 32ish PV volts.
Then clouds moved, sun out, pv in voltage rose to 82v, power at 460 watts.
Then I noticed the KID was showing battery voltage at near one volt greater than it actually was and was going to ABSORB at 29v whereas the real battery V was 28.2 and Classic was still BULKMPPT.
After about 3 minutes the KID relay clicked and it went to RESTING and it showed the battery voltage at the correct 28.2v
I left it and it stayed in RESTING for over 30 minutes before it restarted BULKMPPT and the voltage rose again to near a volt too much. A few minutes later went to RESTING.

So it seems to be ok if input voltage is only a few volts over the battery voltage and power is under 120watts.

I'm so knackered with all the up/down stairs that an early G&T was required.
dgd

It may be time to replace this unit. I will talk to Mario today.

Quote
Then clouds moved, sun out, pv in voltage rose to 82v, power at 460 watts.
Then I noticed the KID was showing battery voltage at near one volt greater than it actually was and was going to ABSORB at 29v whereas the real battery V was 28.2 and Classic was still BULKMPPT.

dgd;

A big (ish) voltage drop from The Kid to battery under charging conditions smells like a poor connection or undersized cabling. As a test I would check the drop across the battery cable. One lead on battery terminal other on input at the Kid or Kid side of the battery breaker.   It could be the breaker is resistive and dropping voltage across it, too. If this drop matches your voltage error then it is not The Kid but the drop in the battery to Kid circuit.

I don't know your skill level with electricity but these are the first things I would test with a discrepancy between idle voltage and passing current voltage. When current flows through a conductor the resistance all conductors have  drops the voltage proportional to the resistance and current flow. In case you do not know this. A bad connection or faulty resistive breaker or undersized cable would exhibit this voltage drop and a higher voltage on the source side (Kid).

Just FYI.

Tom

In the previous post I said

Quote
When current flows through a conductor the resistance all conductors have  drops the voltage proportional to the resistance and current flow.

That is not entirely accurate.

The drop is current squared times the resistance. Just for the sake of accuracy.

Proportional was a poor choice of words.

Tom

Quote from: TomW on March 13, 2014, 09:05:06 AM
In the previous post I said

Quote
When current flows through a conductor the resistance all conductors have  drops the voltage proportional to the resistance and current flow.

That is not entirely accurate.

The drop is current squared times the resistance. Just for the sake of accuracy.

Proportional was a poor choice of words.

I think it was better the first time.  The voltage drop is proportional to the resistance.  The power lost in the resistance is proportional to the square of the current.

--vtMaps

Quote from: vtmaps on March 13, 2014, 10:08:58 AM

Quote from: TomW on March 13, 2014, 09:05:06 AM
In the previous post I said

Quote
When current flows through a conductor the resistance all conductors have  drops the voltage proportional to the resistance and current flow.

That is not entirely accurate.

The drop is current squared times the resistance. Just for the sake of accuracy.

Proportional was a poor choice of words.

I think it was better the first time.  The voltage drop is proportional to the resistance.  The power lost in the resistance is proportional to the square of the current.

--vtMaps

vt;

Yes, I should just sit on my hands some times. Both made sense when I typed them. The voltage drop was the point and I should have just left the details up to others.

Thanks for the catch. Accuracy is what is important.

Tom

dgd, we better get that unit back so I can troubleshoot it here. That kid has problems
Please send an email to Ryan so he can RMA it.

Mario

Quote from: TomW on March 13, 2014, 08:54:30 AM
A big (ish) voltage drop from The Kid to battery under charging conditions smells like a poor connection or undersized cabling. As a test I would check the drop across the battery cable. One lead on battery terminal other on input at the Kid or Kid side of the battery breaker.   It could be the breaker is resistive and dropping voltage across it, too. If this drop matches your voltage error then it is not The Kid but the drop in the battery to Kid circuit.

Tom,

I had actually already considered this, the cable is 6mm2, and the breaker an MN surface mount type 40A, also re-tightened cable connections everywhere but now I will just replace both the breaker and cable today.
When this switching to resting was occuring I did feel all the cables but none were even slightly warm but I did not look at  the breaker.

Poor weather now for a few days but should get sun next week and will retest.
Thanks again... :)

dgd