11 questions about the Classic 150.

[jwdukes]

Howdy gang.  I've gone through the online manual & simulator and came up with these questions.  Thanks in advance for all the help!


1.  In the control panel simulator, I notice that the maximum STC module power is only 300 watts.  The panels I have are rated at 325 watts, how should I address this?  Request special firmware?

2.  Regarding the auxiliary ports, I'll need to set up a 12V computer case fan to vent the battery box when charging and possibly use the residual PV on another load when the battery bank is fully charged.  As far as how to do that and where to hook them up (no pics), I'm lost.  I wish the section about auxiliary ports in the manual was more explanative and gave examples of how to use each mode.  The manual shows over a dozen modes, but I don't find them in the simulator.  Can anyone help?

3.  How critical is it to mount it perfectly plumb and level?  The wall of my RV that I may mount it to slants slightly forward.

4.  From what I understand, I need a circuit breaker between the PV & controller, between the controller & battery bank, and between the battery bank & loads, is that correct?  I see that the controller's wizard suggests circuit breakers to use, but do any of you have suggestions for a smaller & cheaper box to install them in? (The RV I'm installing the system in pretty small).

5.  Is it necessary and will I void the warranty if I use different brand circuit breakers and combiner?

6.  Is the battery temperature sensor included with the controller? Besides the blank display face, are there any other controller-specific accessories that aren't included?  What is the "MidNite network cable" as mentioned on page 41?

7.  When will the manual be complete?  So far I noticed that the firmware updating, equalization, logs, technical information, menu map, and troubleshooting sections are blank.

8.  When we set times for absorb charge, what if my bank doesn't need much of an absorb charge?  Will the controller know that and go to float?

9.  When in float, if a large enough load drains the bank to a certain low state of charge, will the charger know to up back to absorb mode (given adequate sunlight)?  If so, where do I have to set the exact level of charge to tell it when to go back into absorb?

10.  Will the PV terminals in the controller fit #4 guage wire?

11.  If I need to shut down the system, while my RV is in the shop for example, do I switch off both breakers (into & out of) for the controller?  Will it save all my settings or does it still need to be plugged to the battery bank for that?

[boB]

JW, all great questions !

Howdy gang.  I've gone through the online manual & simulator and came up with these questions.  Thanks in advance for all the help!

1.  In the control panel simulator, I notice that the maximum STC module power is only 300 watts.  The panels I have are rated at 325 watts, how should I address this?  Request special firmware?

This will be changed to go higher in value, you can count on that...

For the moment, you could break the string into two strings of 325/2 Watts each, or one string of 250 Watts and one string of 125 Watts.

2.  Regarding the auxiliary ports, I'll need to set up a 12V computer case fan to vent the battery box when charging and possibly use the residual PV on another load when the battery bank is fully charged.  As far as how to do that and where to hook them up (no pics), I'm lost.  I wish the section about auxiliary ports in the manual was more explanative and gave examples of how to use each mode.  The manual shows over a dozen modes, but I don't find them in the simulator.  Can anyone help?

Yeah, the manual needs some work.  OK, a bunch... The un-implemented modes should not be in there.  Those modes were in the MNGP remotes and so they appeared in the manual.  The unused modes are not in the MNGP (remote) itself now.  Check for a manual update to be uploaded in the next day or two.

As far as Vent-Fan function, this can be accomplished by the Aux 1 diversion function.  It's the same thing really, because the diversion mode goes active when the battery voltage (or input V if wanted) goes above or below a preset voltage.  This mode can also be used as a Low Voltage Disconnect function to turn off loads when the battery voltage goes below a preset threshold.

You can hook up a small 12V fan to the Aux 1 output, but it should only supply a small fan that draws less than 200 milli-Amps. A microprocessor fan draws something like 150 milliAmps I seem to remember. A computer case fan draws more than this.  Possibly 1/2 Amp.  In this case, you would need to drive a 12V power supply (or thereabouts) that can be turned on and off by the Aux 1 output.  Sometimes an external relay is called for to switch things on and off because of the higher current or voltage needs. If you have an inverter running, you could add a small relay that could switch on the primary of a Wall-Wart obtained maybe from a second hand store for around $1 to $2.00...   I make good use of these wall warts for all sorts of things.

3.  How critical is it to mount it perfectly plumb and level?  The wall of my RV that I may mount it to slants slightly forward.

Not critical at all AFAIK...

4.  From what I understand, I need a circuit breaker between the PV & controller, between the controller & battery bank, and between the battery bank & loads, is that correct?  I see that the controller's wizard suggests circuit breakers to use, but do any of you have suggestions for a smaller & cheaper box to install them in? (The RV I'm installing the system in pretty small).

For the input, the requirements are actually a "Disconnect" which a circuit breaker works well for.  A Circuit breaker is needed for the output to the battery.

As for a smaller box, etc., I'll let someone else respond to that one.  Maybe a Baby Box or Mini DC ?

5.  Is it necessary and will I void the warranty if I use different brand circuit breakers and combiner?

Nope.  Not at all. Void away !   Make sure the breakers are equivalent though, like, rated for high enough voltage, magnetic-hydraulic, etc...

6.  Is the battery temperature sensor included with the controller? Besides the blank display face, are there any other controller-specific accessories that aren't included?  What is the "MidNite network cable" as mentioned on page 41?

Yes, the BTS is included with the Classic.

The network cable we use is a standard "6 conductor" telephone cable, which you can usually get from a Radio Shack or Frye's Electronics store.

Actually, the cable for the internal MNGP remote is the only one that needs to be 6 conductor to allow for two of the LEDs that are driven from the Classic itself.   If running a second MNGP remote into the house for instance, you can get away with a 4 conductor cable unless you want the LEDs to be active there.  Same for one Classic to another in a master-slave connection.  4 conductors is all that is used.

7.  When will the manual be complete?  So far I noticed that the firmware updating, equalization, logs, technical information, menu map, and troubleshooting sections are blank.

The manual may never be "complete" as long as we keep adding features.  However, we should have a new manual uploaded tomorrow or Tuesday so you will want to check for that.

8.  When we set times for absorb charge, what if my bank doesn't need much of an absorb charge?  Will the controller know that and go to float?

If the Bulk time was short, then the Absorb time will be short also.  Like some other charge controllers, there is an adjustable minimum and  maximum Absorb time.  How short of Absorb time depends on what that minimum Absorb time is set to.  You can set it to zero if you want, but typically you would set it to at least a few minutes.  The default minimum time is 30 minutes.

9.  When in float, if a large enough load drains the bank to a certain low state of charge, will the charger know to up back to absorb mode (given adequate sunlight)?  If so, where do I have to set the exact level of charge to tell it when to go back into absorb?

There is a Re-Bulk voltage setting that will force the Classic to start a new Bulk/Absorb cycle if the battery drops below that voltage for about 90 seconds.
The default is disabled.  i.e. The Re-Bulk voltage is set for a VERY low voltage, like, 5 Volts.

Of course, for PV, a new Bulk/Absorb will be forced each morning.   Otherwise, another Bulk/Absorb will be forced every 24 hours.
Until our networked battery SOC monitor is available, this is how re-bulking is done.  Of course, a re-bulk can be manually forced from the MNGP or over the modbus network.

10.  Will the PV terminals in the controller fit #4 guage wire?

Yes, #4 gauge wire is the largest wire the terminal will accept.  This is large (or larger)  than necessary, but since you need an input disconnect anyway, the PV wire run can be as large as you want and then from disconnect to the Classic can be #4 or smaller.

The E-panel will accept up to 1/0 gauge wire at the input.

11.  If I need to shut down the system, while my RV is in the shop for example, do I switch off both breakers (into & out of) for the controller?  Will it save all my settings or does it still need to be plugged to the battery bank for that?

You can shut off either input or output but I would turn them both off.

The Classic remembers all of its settings in non-vomitable memory.

Hopefully someone will chime in if I've missed something here.

boB

[Halfcrazy]

Wow good answers boB I will add maybe you could use our mini dc box to do all your dc distribution?

[Mario]

There is a New User Manual posted in the MidNite Solar home page, check it out.
Expect a new revision soon, as well.

[keyturbocars]

Thanks for the heads up Mario.

I just downloaded the latest revision of the manual and did some more reading. 

Edward

[jwdukes]

1.  When I go to the CHARGE menu, what is T-Comp, EQ GO!, and EndA-SOC?   I searched the manual with no luck.   

2.  I'm guessing EQ GO! is a way to manually start equalization?  The manual doesn't talk about it, can anyone else expand thoroughly?  I'm guessing I need to unhook my loads from that batteries so the higher voltage doesn't harm my equipment (installing in an R.V. where most things run on 12V).  What else do I need to do/not do and how often?

3.  Back to hooking a vent fan to the auxiliary when the batteries are charging... Can we be more clear on how to set this up?  I'm thinking I'll need a 12V relay to run the case fan.  So would I go to " BAD DIV V REL +" (or "...REL -" ?) ->  right soft key -> then what should I set the LOW & HIGH to?  I'll have a 12V battery bank (6 golf cart batteries) if that matters.

Thanks, team!

[jwdukes]

Also, for my two 325 Watt panels, Bob said to set them up as four 162.5 Watt panels (2 per string).  Should I set them as ~ 160 Watt panels?  More importantly, how do I butcher the rest of the settings?  Amps, VOC, fuse, etc
I tried to upload a pic of the panel specs, but how do I get a picture smaller than 128 kb?
Specs on panels are:
Peak power    325 Wp
Peak Voltage    37.3 Volts
peak current   8.71 Amps
Open circuit voltage   46.9 volts
Short circuit current   9.06
Max System voltage   600 volts
Max series fuse   20 A
Diode rating   15 A

[boB]

1.  When I go to the CHARGE menu, what is T-Comp, EQ GO!, and EndA-SOC?   I searched the manual with no luck.   

Right, EQ GO! is to start an EQ.  There wasn't enough room for more characters in that larger font so I tried to be creative.  It's actually been
changed to just EQ  now.

T-Comp is for battery Temperature Compensation adjustment and to select whether EQ is temp compensated or not.
Some companies temp comp their EQ and some don't.  Also, there is the VIEW menu from the Soft-Right key that lets you view the voltage
that the charge controller is presently looking to regulate to. That voltage will be different from the CHARGER-VOLTS menu set point if the temp
comp battery sensor is installed and the temperature is different from 25 degrees C.

EndA-SOC means ENDing Amps-State Of Charge.   This is now just Ending Amps for when one wants the Absorb stage to end on low
battery current rather than the Absorb Timer.  This will usually require that there are no other loads on the battery so that the current sense
in the Classic is just looking at the battery charge current.  It's not useful very often without a separate battery current sensor but is there anyway.
Eventually (sooner than later I hope), there will be a battery monitor accessable on the network to just look at battery current and then this
function will always be able to end the Absorb cycle using this method. 

The SOC part of that is intended to be able to stop or start the battery charging cycle (Bulk and Absorb) based on State Of Charge from
a battery monitor.  I tried to put too many things into one menu so the next software revision will remove the SOC part until there is
a battery monitor solution or method.  It is less confusing we think to remove those for now. It will probably be put into another menu
when it does come time to put them back.

2.  I'm guessing EQ GO! is a way to manually start equalization?  The manual doesn't talk about it, can anyone else expand thoroughly?  I'm guessing I need to unhook my loads from that batteries so the higher voltage doesn't harm my equipment (installing in an R.V. where most things run on 12V).  What else do I need to do/not do and how often?

If your external DC loads are going to have a problem with the higher battery voltage then that would be a good idea.  Hopefully you don't have too much on there that will be hurt by 15.0 to 15.5 Volts or so.  Some inverters like to just beep away at over 15 Volts too.

3.  Back to hooking a vent fan to the auxiliary when the batteries are charging... Can we be more clear on how to set this up?  I'm thinking I'll need a 12V relay to run the case fan.  So would I go to " BAD DIV V REL +" (or "...REL -" ?) ->  right soft key -> then what should I set the LOW & HIGH to?  I'll have a 12V battery bank (6 golf cart batteries) if that matters.

I would just use the first Aux setting to turn on a vent fan.  (Absolute Voltage rather than Relative) Set the battery voltage at whatever voltage the batteries start boiling at.  Usually somewhere in the 14.X Volt region of course.

Thanks, team!

You're quite welcome !
boB

[boB]

Also, for my two 325 Watt panels, Bob said to set them up as four 162.5 Watt panels (2 per string).  Should I set them as ~ 160 Watt panels?  More importantly, how do I butcher the rest of the settings?  Amps, VOC, fuse, etc
I tried to upload a pic of the panel specs, but how do I get a picture smaller than 128 kb?
Specs on panels are:
Peak power    325 Wp
Peak Voltage    37.3 Volts
peak current   8.71 Amps
Open circuit voltage   46.9 volts
Short circuit current   9.06
Max System voltage   600 volts
Max series fuse   20 A
Diode rating   15 A

Don't worry about going through the wizard again.   You can run through the wizard if you like but don't have to really...  The Voc will be whatever it will be.

As long as the same modules are being used, then the fuse ratings should stay the same.  You just need more of them then because there are
more strings now.

I thought the image size was 192 K ?  I had the same problem today uploading a picture that was too large.  If the image is too large
and you want to reduce it to fit, then you don't necessarily know if you've reduced it enough or maybe too much and if it's too small
it's hard to see.

I just use Microsoft Office Picture Manager (right-click and "open with") to re-size and crop photos.  Then I look at the "properties" to see
if it's less than 192 K or whatever.

boB

[jwdukes]

If the wizard isn't needed, then what settings are needed?  Battery bank specs and all output settings I imagine are needed, but not input?  What's the purpose of asking for unneeded info?  Will it turn on and off regardless of my region/time (using the PV like a photocell)? 

On the "first" auxiliary setting, is that "DIVESION SLW+"?  I know you told me set it at the boiling point, 14.x, so then what should V LOW and V HIGH be set to?

Thanks boB!

[boB]

If the wizard isn't needed, then what settings are needed?  Battery bank specs and all output settings I imagine are needed, but not input?  What's the purpose of asking for unneeded info?  Will it turn on and off regardless of my region/time (using the PV like a photocell)? 

On the "first" auxiliary setting, is that "DIVESION SLW+"?  I know you told me set it at the boiling point, 14.x, so then what should V LOW and V HIGH be set to?

Thanks boB!

The reason for asking the wizard asking these questions is to figure how high the PV voltage will go when it gets cold in your area and let you
know about it so you can reconfigure the PV array to safer values.   This information can eventually be used to help with PV operation but for now
is to help configure the hardware.


Good point on the the Low and High voltage.   The HIGH voltage is where the Aux output (and fan) will go ON  when
battery V goes above, and when V falls below the LOW voltage set point, it will turn back off again.  I would just leave
a couple of tenths of a volt between the HIGH and LOW setting.  Also, if using Aux 1 and the SLOW DIVERSION mode,
set the DELAY time for something like  2 or 3 seconds and the HOLD time to something like 20 to 30 seconds so the
fan doesn't go on and off and on and off etc...  The old MX60 CC  vent fan mode left the fan on for 30 seconds.

Adjusting the DELAY time for a couple of seconds will ensure that your vent fan doesn't go on because of some short
momentary rise in battery voltage for some unrelated reason than going into Absorb or EQ etc.

We will add this information to the manual.  Thank you for asking !

boB

[jwdukes]

I'm still new to solar, and so far I haven't read anything about needing to reconfigure my array in winter.  I only have two panels.  "Safer values"?  I'm SO confused about what I need to do/not do.  Maybe it's best I call next week.  Thanks boB

[boB]

The idea is that one sets up the array so the voltage doesn't get too high in winter but not too low on hot days.

The hot day lower voltages is a reason to build the array with at least one nominal voltage higher than the battery voltage.

For example, a 36 volt array for a 24 volt battery bank.  But if  partial shading is definitely going to happen some or the
PV wire lengths are long, even higher PV voltages are even better...   Higher up to a point.  Eventually they can get
so high of voltage that you then have to pay attention to high voltages on those cold days not over-voltaging the
controller.

Also, remember that the higher the PV voltage, the lower the efficiency of the controller.  Any controller.  But this
lower efficiency is usually more than made up by the lower losses in the PV wiring and better performance in
partial shaded conditions, etc.

For instance, the controller efficiency might go down by one or two percent (it will run warmer) when going from a 48
Volt array to a 72 Volt array, but the increase in overall performance might go up by at least 6 percent.
Those aren't exact hard figures but gives you an idea, kinda.

boB

[jwdukes]

Thanks for explaining boB, I'm learning.
I'll just leave them in parallel unless I rrreally need that small of a boost, but don't think I'll need it (the boost or the added heat) in summer.  I provided the specs on my panels & bank, if I put my panels in parallel, that should still be two nominal voltages higher, perfect right?  Another RV person told me that'd be best so if I get shade on one panel, it won't effect the other, but maybe he was mistaken.
If I did put the two panels into series, then in the winter (when I'd welcome any extra heat in the cabin at that time), they still couldn't possibly overload the 150V controller, right?

So in conclusion, just plug them in?  Don't set ANY input parameters?

[boB]

Don't set parameters just because you paralleled strings rather than serise'd more modules, but DO make sure
that your battery charger voltages are set correctly.

The first and most important parameter is the battery charge voltage.
The second most important would be that the PV open circuit voltage isn't too high.

In other words,  Batteries first, Controller second.

boB