SPD300 upgrade on Epanel

[SolarMusher]

I had a problem last week when I installed 3x SPD300 on a Magnum4448 PAE Epanel. Powered off this system, switched off DC disconnect (without disconnected DC wire from batteries), installed SPD300 and restarted the system... Nothing. No red light on display, no fault I could see, just green lights, no problems. I was sure I didn't make a mistake and I double checked my job without better results.
After 2 hours, I thought that this inverter was out and need to be repaired but it was too late and I couldn't keep on working.
Wake up at 5 am in the dark as I wanted to give this inverter a last chance, checked my job a last time and powered on the system...
It was working fine! 
I already had this problem when I added the SPD on my system three monthes ago but I never had it on new panel with SPD wired at the installation.
Do you think that an inverter need to be completely de-energized for 3 or 4 hours before installing SPD?
Could the SPD make a high voltage fault in the inverter when I first restarted this system because of some energy inside this inverter.
That's what I'm thinking now  but any others thoughts are welcome,
Erik

[boB]

Erik,

What did you connect the SPD300 to ??   What did the wires connect to ??

boB

[SolarMusher]

Hi boB,
I had connected each SPD300 as usual when I have to wire a E-panel: red bus hot in/red bus hot out/ground for the first SPD, black bus hot in/black bus hot out/ground for the second SPD and pos (array)/neg/ground  for the third.
I never have this problem when I have to wire a brand new panel/inverter with SPD (I wire several magnum PAE 240VAC E-panel each year). This problem just occurs on "used inverters" (one/two years old) when a custommer wants to add SPD later to his system.
But as I told you, I'm sure that I made no mistake when installing these SPD  . I really would like to understand what hapened to this inverter for next SPD add on.
Erik

[niel]

"red bus hot in/red bus hot out/ground for the first SPD, black bus hot in/black bus hot out/ground for the second SPD and pos (array)/neg/ground  for the third."

am i reading this right that you also grounded the in and out hots? you don't do that.

[SolarMusher]

am i reading this right that you also grounded the in and out hots? you don't do that.

Niel, you must be tired. Had grounded each SPD (green wire) on ground bus... Seriously where do you see another place to connect a ground wire?
We're not all expert but...
Erik

[SolarMusher]

Niel, I don't know how you connect a SPD but to be clear I connect it like that...
But maybe you can show me another way.
Erik

[boB]

Niel, I don't know how you connect a SPD but to be clear I connect it like that...
But maybe you can show me another way.
Erik

That looks correct, Erik.   Not sure what is going on.

The SPD will draw something like 1 milliamp or so to light the LED but that's about all I can
think of that would cause anything to go wrong....   go wrong...  go wrong....

Unless one of the SPDs are shorted ??  Did you measure from green ground wire to either hots to
make sure the SPDs are OK ??  I've never seen one short but you might be the first one ??

boB

[niel]

erik,
it was semantics and my misunderstanding of what you said.

i agree with bob as that looks right.

[Halfcrazy]

I had a problem last week when I installed 3x SPD300 on a Magnum4448 PAE Epanel. Powered off this system, switched off DC disconnect (without disconnected DC wire from batteries), installed SPD300 and restarted the system... Nothing. No red light on display, no fault I could see, just green lights, no problems. I was sure I didn't make a mistake and I double checked my job without better results.
After 2 hours, I thought that this inverter was out and need to be repaired but it was too late and I couldn't keep on working.
Wake up at 5 am in the dark as I wanted to give this inverter a last chance, checked my job a last time and powered on the system...
It was working fine! 
I already had this problem when I added the SPD on my system three monthes ago but I never had it on new panel with SPD wired at the installation.
Do you think that an inverter need to be completely de-energized for 3 or 4 hours before installing SPD?
Could the SPD make a high voltage fault in the inverter when I first restarted this system because of some energy inside this inverter.
That's what I'm thinking now  but any others thoughts are welcome,
Erik

Erik
I am coming in late to the party. Everything you did makes perfect sense and is in fact exactly how I do it. My questions are as follows:

When you powered back up the system did the Classic work correct?
What did the magnum remote do did it lite up and give any errors?
If the magnum remote lit up did it just not allow you to push the Inverter ON button?

Last and biggest does this system have a Magnum AGS???

I am trying to determine what did and did not work as well as if there is an AGS if so I have a theory 

Ryan

[SolarMusher]

boB,

Did you measure from green ground wire to either hots to
make sure the SPDs are OK ??

No boB, sorry.

I've never seen one short but you might be the first one ??

Not really, it's not the first time, as I said previously I had the same problem on my own 4448PAE when I add SPD later. I could only power on the inverter on the next day.
Niel,

it was semantics and my misunderstanding of what you said.

Ok, don't worry Niel, that's correct.
Ryan,

When you powered back up the system did the Classic work correct?

This cutommer had a FM60 not a Classic (but in my case, it was with a classic 200).
Not sure of that Ryan, it was late in the evening and I'm pretty sure the controller was working correctly. Why are you talking about the controller?

What did the magnum remote do did it lite up and give any errors?

No, this remote was showing green led as it was working normally. Not a single red light that could show me a fault.

If the magnum remote lit up did it just not allow you to push the Inverter ON button?

In fact, there was no problem to "push on and off" this remote/inverter button but it didn't output current when ON and the charger didn't work either. I had powered ON and OFF the system (remote, DC disconnect, but keeped the controller ON) several times. I had also tried to reset the Magnum several times to clear a possible fault. I didn't disconnect inverter wires from batteries and when I powered it ON a last time in the morning, there were no more problems.
It's hard to believe in hazard in both cases with SPD add on.
Sorry, Ryan but there were no AGS on both systems.
Erik

[Halfcrazy]

Ok so you are saying the inverter and remote acted normal? The Magnum remote turned the inverter on? Did it start humming like normal but not output any current or no hum at all? We will try this on a Magnum 4448PAE tomorrow but I need to understand the complete process so we can recreate it.

[SolarMusher]

Absolutely Ryan,
On this custommer's system:
The ME-RC turned On the Magnum without fault, the inverter was humming (without loads) as usual but didn't output current. It looks like the magnum turned in fault internally without showing a fault (green led on). Seach mode didn't work except when I selected On and Off the 5W defaut setting several times. I know it doesn't make sense...
This Magnum epanel was working more than fine (I have installed it in last december) before I had to install these SPD ten days ago. There's is just one neutral/ground in the main panel and one negative/ground in the epanel and the gen was Off (not charging).
I also tried to sart the gen later but the charger didn't work.
On my system:
Older inverter (4448AE model), same problem, but I had disconnected battery wires at the battery post. Powered the system On and Off, reseted the Magnum to clear fault. I had even ordered for a new one... and two days later before I began to uninstall this inverter, I tried a last time and... it was working fine. Since I restarted this system, I never have any other problem at this day and the SPD are working fine too, obviously they were not shorted. I have also powered On and Off my system several times without problem.
And believe me: I didn't make any mistake and I know HOW and WHERE to ground a system.
The only explanation I have right now is : when one has to stop a Magnum system, he has to wait a few hours to be sure to de-energized the inverter before to add SPD and restart a system. 
Not sure it makes sense...
Erik

[SolarMusher]

But don't get me wrong, if you test a brand new Epanel/SPD/4448PAE (all pre-installed with ME-RC50) you will never have a problem (I never had one).
You'll need to test a used 4448PAE on epanel (without surge protection), run it a few hours and only add SPD onto later (I had installed the first SPD 5mn after powered Off the system) before to push On remote switch to re-start.
Erik

[Halfcrazy]

Eric
Is the DC negative bonded to earth Ground in these systems or are you using a GFP breaker or is the DC- floating?

Once I am sufficiently sure I understand the system and the sequence of events I will type it up for engineering. They have a 4448PAE on an Epanel with a Classic running in engineering

Ryan

[SolarMusher]

Is the DC negative bonded to earth Ground in these systems or are you using a GFP breaker or is the DC- floating?

Hi Ryan,
In the custommer's system (FM60), the negative is bonded to ground inside the epanel with no DC-GFP installed yet.
In mine, GFP enabled and connected in the Classic and no bond negative/ground inside the epanel.
Two different cases but the same problem.
Hope this help,
Erik