Has Force Bulk Logic Changed in the past year or so?

[Vic]

Am running a Classic with the 6/29/12 FW

Have been avoiding daily total recharge of the batteries here for the past three months or so -- have generally charged to Vfloat + 0.1 V daily,  and recharged with a full Absorption stage about every 5-or so days.

One site using the above approach is attended only about once in  5-7 days.  On each of these visits,  manually reset Vabs to the nominal correct voltage of about 58.2 V.  This re-set is almost always done while the Classic is in Float,  so Force Bulk is used to initiate a new charge cycle.

However,  during this Force Bulk,  the Classic appears to IGNORE the EA setting,  and seems to choose the Min Absorb time setting,  and terminates the Absorption stage quite early by not applying EA as the Terminator.

Has this Logic changed in later FW revs? 

Have been *waiting*  for the MN Charge Current Sensor to do FW Updates to newer FW.

Because this site has had two Classic on line,  have reverted to using a single Classic,  as we MUST use EA as charge terminator due to the Variable amount of A/C required to keep the power batteries and power electronics cool --Timed Absorption works very poorly in this situation.

Thanks!   Vic

[Vic]

OK,  am trying to make another cut at this ...

So,  when running Classics with the 6/29/12 FW Version,  have noted several things when attempting to use EA settings in the Classic to terminate Absorption;

1.  If one tries to Force Bulk,  the current that the Classic is delivering toward the battery MUST exceed this EA value,  or the Classic appears to IGNORE the Force Bulk.

2.  When Forcing Bulk when CC is in Float,  and the Classic output current dose exceed the EA value set,  EA appears to be IGNORED,  in favor of the Minimum Absorb time. (it is possible that there is no longer a Min Abs time to set in later FW - guessing (?)).

EDITORIAL comment:  When EA has been set in a Classic,  it would be very nice that in the case of #1 above that the Classic at least take a real run at actually doing  Bulk & Absorption stages.   YES,  I CAN manually impose this by either resetting EQ V,  or Float V,  but ...

In the case of #2 above, it would be very nice if the Classic would begin a new Bulk,  just like the one that preceded it on this day,  using the actual EA setting in the Classic.

To me,   the systems here really need to use EA.  EA is the mode that works.  Time works very,  very poorly for these systems.

The MX-60,  even with the latest versions -- 5.10 & 5.11 -- seems to have the identical behavior as does the Classic for case #! FWIW.

The above is why was wondering if the EA Logic had been changed.   IMHO,  EA should DICTATE,  ALWAYS.  when it is enabled,  and EA OR Max Time should be the only two terminators.  A change in the Logic that causes the two EA behaviors, as above,  does seem warranted to me.

One of the Classic-charged sites is attended only to initiate a full charge cycle,  through a normal Absorb.   By the time that I get to that site,  it is almost always in Float,  and Force Bulk  does no real good,   as it ends far too soon.   Could reset the Absorb times,   but,  then on the next day  these would be too long.  AND,  do not have the time to stand around waiting for a manually forced Bulk/Abs (by resetting Vfloat for example) to end,  so all the  CC settings could be reset to the correct values for the following day.

Several Charge Profiles would sure be a great addition to the Classic,  but that might have to be hidden from more casual users,   and so on.
Thanks!   Vic

[zoneblue]

It doesnt suprise that force bulk behaves unpredictably, given how rapidly the firmware has changed lately. I dont have the whole chronology yet, but the 'end Absorb' algos changed several times last year. 1070 was the last stable firmware that had min absorb time. 1370 removed it, along with the algo that made absorb proportional to bulk.  My reading of this is that midnite tried various things, until eventually concluding that there was in fact no way around building a battery current sensor.

All i can say is that I hope it is released soon!

[Vic]

Hi zoneblue,

Do realize that this the second post in this Thread is a bit of a whine.

I DO love the MidNite crew,  and their products.   They get an amazing amount of new product development done and shipped in a short time period.

For this one Classic-charged site,  have been a very slow adopter of new FW,  because  need to watch new versions just to make certain that I understand just what is  happening,  as the site is unattended 99% of the time,  and there is NO internet port available there just now.

Thanks for the info on the Min time.

Regarding the rate of change in FW versions,  this is much better than almost all of the other manufacturers,  who seem to never rev the FW,  or even worse are those like Schneider,  who has had HORRIBLE BUGs in their CC,  and the FW finally has been revised,  but the supply chain from China is so long,  and Distribution stock is so stale,  that a "new" CC arrives with bad,  out of date FW,  and Schneider and the reseller will do nothing about this defective FW,  except rent the FW Implanter for $50.00 or more plus freight.  One could buy this Implanter for about $300 or so plus freight.  Unacceptable!   The Classic is easily updated on the wall,  in the field.   A big plus!   And MN is always extending the functionality of the Classic,  often based on customer input.

We all want MORE from MN,  and we are all waiting for something,   the MN guys  are all running very fast as it is.   For me,   when A/C season is over,  in 6-8 weeks,  my need for the BCM will be much reduced,  as that is a fairly large,  but variable load  (the Power Room is A/Ced,  even with no one there).

FWIW,   have not meant anything disparaging regarding MidNite,  the Classic,  or the Crew.  Just trying to understand the current state of things,   and give a bit of feedback re the way Force Bulk,  and EA works here.    Thanks         Vic

[zoneblue]

Vic, we all get a bit steamed up about things we are passionate about. Like you i went midnite because they seemed to be innovating and had computer smarts. Network aware appliances are where its at.

Re documention lag, who isnt guilty of that. Crikey i know i am not.

[Vic]

Thinking about the several Questions in this Thread ...

So,  then MN Team,  ASSUMING that the Logic for Force Bulk has NOT changed in subsequent FW Revisions from the 6/29/12 version,  are you folks satisfied that when Forcing Bulk that the Classic Output current MUST EXCEED the EA value set?

AND,  are you satisfied that the EA setting appears to be IGNORED in favor of an Absorption time setting when the EA value has been satisfied (by turning on a heater for example)  after a Forced Bulk has been successfully initiated?

Normally,  when questions go unanswered for four or so days would just Delete the post,   but there are replies,  and would like to KNOW the answers to the questions, if at all possible.

Perhaps the lack of MN team replies is that this is such a stupid set of questions that they do not warrant replies  ...  dunno,  BUT with each new FW Update to the Classics (or any other CC) done here,  feel the need to watch recharge over a period of a few days,  and tweak settings as needed.   Simply do not have that amount of time just now  at this unattended site.

If these questions are just beyond the scope of this Forum,   then should they be directed to Tech via e-mail?   OR ?

Thank you very much for the time,  know that you folks are very busy.
MidNite has excellent Tech Support ...   and so on.   73,      Tedious    Vic

[boB]

Sorry, I have been very busy working on the WB Jr. current monitor implementation....( Among other
necessary things around here.)

Vic, you should get one of the first ones I think because you are the Ending Amps guy to end all ending amps !!

The firmware from 6-29-2012 you mention is the one that fixed the bug where it did NOT work at all.
I looked at the Readme-Changes.txt file from the firmware update notes (it is included in the update file)
and nothing has been done to that particular aspect since 6-29-2012 except to make it go to
zero.zero amps because there may be external sources keeping the voltage at Absorb V and the
current at 0 amps.


I just tried the EA right now on the latest firmware after forcing a Bulk (from Float) and it worked
like it was supposed to.  As long as the display did NOT jump up to the EA set point, the Classic
went to Float in about 90 seconds.  Forced another Bulk and it did it again a second time.
Each time the timers started out at (in this case) maximum because I did not have VMX
enabled in Charge Timers.

BTW, minimum absorb time IS still there if you need it.  It is now hidden in with VariMax (VMX) and
works much better than the old Classic and old MX60 method.  VMX keeps the absorb time from
counting UP towards maximum absorb time UNLESS the current output is greater than an
adjustable current setting AND the battery voltage is LESS than an adjustable amount BELOW the
absorb voltage setting.

I did not want to get rid of minimum absorb time, just make it be able to work better and also adjustable,
if wanted, to operate like it used to.  Close to it.  I think the current must be greater than a couple of
amps at least for the absorb timer to count up toward maximum time but that's real close.

So, Force Bulk and Ending Amps have not been changed, at least not intentionally.
Usually, things that unintentionally get messed up do not fix themselves.

You are really going to like using the WB Jr. !

boB

[Vic]

Hi boB,

Thank you very much for taking the time for a reply.

Well,  on the Classic 150s here,  with EA set to a reasonable value -- about 1% of C --  from Float,  if the CC output current is below this value,  Force Bulk appears to have been completely ignored.  It is as if the function was never commanded ...  the CC just stays in Float.  If  some load increased the CC out current to above the EA value previously set,  then  FB works,  and a new Bulk is initiated.  But it appears that  the EA setting is not used to end this new Bulk/absorption cycle,  but rather,  the Min Abs time.

Do not know just how the settings or systems differ that would make this behavior between your system and this so different.

The  FB with CC current below EA being apparently ignored has not really been a problem,  as (here),  just start a load that brings CC I above the EA setting,  and there is a Bulk.  Just do not understand just why (here)  that it appears that this new cycle ends by the Min time being satisfied.

Will dink around with this when am at this site again,  with some available time to experiment.

Yes  the WB Jr.  is what many of us have been wishing for back to the MX-60 days.  And the promise that this accessory will be very inexpensive will be frosting on the MN cake!  Cannot wait,  and this one device will allow my batteries to run cooler because the power room A/C can be set to about the lowest temp,  and not need to worry that Absorb will be extended because I guessed wrong about what is the lowest temp setting that will always ensure the A/C cycles off at the desired end point of Absorb -- if I guess too low a setting,  the A/C does not cycle off,  and the higher CC out current extends Abs until Max time.    This overcharges the battery and makes it run hotter than necessary ...   and so on.
Just do not understand with the system here and the one there,   unless your system has not done a real full charge cycle for the day (this is unlikely).   Dunno.

Have not needed VariMax yet.    We usually have wall-to-wall sun in the Summer,  but for winter it might help on variable cloudy days.  Will look at this again in a couple of months.

Thanks also for the info that Min Abs time is still available,   should be a good thing many users.

Will do a bit of experimentation at this particular site's Classic/s.    Best Regards,    Thanks!   Vic

[boB]

Hi boB,

Thank you very much for taking the time for a reply.

Well,  on the Classic 150s here,  with EA set to a reasonable value -- about 1% of C --  from Float,  if the CC output current is below this value,  Force Bulk appears to have been completely ignored.  It is as if the function was never commanded ...  the CC just stays in Float.  If  some load increased the CC out current to above the EA value previously set,  then  FB works,  and a new Bulk is initiated.

At first, (tonight), this action made sense because the current is below the EA setting BUT at that time, the voltage is at
float and not absorb.  i.e. the battery current will be higher when the battery voltage is  higher (absorb).

Yeah, that is not right.  I will look at this  and fix that now that I understand what the problem is.
Thanks for bugging us on this !

  But it appears that  the EA setting is not used to end this new Bulk/absorption cycle,  but rather,  the Min Abs time.

If you have a minimum absorb time setting, then I assume you do not have firmware new enough to have VMX.
On newer Classics, there is no minimum absorb time without VariMax being enabled.

What version of firmware does this Classic have ?

boB

Do not know just how the settings or systems differ that would make this behavior between your system and this so different.

The  FB with CC current below EA being apparently ignored has not really been a problem,  as (here),  just start a load that brings CC I above the EA setting,  and there is a Bulk.  Just do not understand just why (here)  that it appears that this new cycle ends by the Min time being satisfied.

Will dink around with this when am at this site again,  with some available time to experiment.

Yes  the WB Jr.  is what many of us have been wishing for back to the MX-60 days.  And the promise that this accessory will be very inexpensive will be frosting on the MN cake!  Cannot wait,  and this one device will allow my batteries to run cooler because the power room A/C can be set to about the lowest temp,  and not need to worry that Absorb will be extended because I guessed wrong about what is the lowest temp setting that will always ensure the A/C cycles off at the desired end point of Absorb -- if I guess too low a setting,  the A/C does not cycle off,  and the higher CC out current extends Abs until Max time.    This overcharges the battery and makes it run hotter than necessary ...   and so on.
Just do not understand with the system here and the one there,   unless your system has not done a real full charge cycle for the day (this is unlikely).   Dunno.

Have not needed VariMax yet.    We usually have wall-to-wall sun in the Summer,  but for winter it might help on variable cloudy days.  Will look at this again in a couple of months.

Thanks also for the info that Min Abs time is still available,   should be a good thing many users.

Will do a bit of experimentation at this particular site's Classic/s.    Best Regards,    Thanks!   Vic

[boB]

Hmmm...   I just tried this experiment here with my Classic, latest code....

24V battery  EA set to 9.0 Amps

Was in Bulk MPPT.  Went to absorb and putting out about 12 amps.

Dropped to less than 9 and down to 8 and 7.5 or so and by 90 seconds
went to Float.

In float it was putting out  about 3 amps  at 27.2 V.  EA is still set to 9 amps.

Went to tweaks and forced bulk.  Went into Bulk and Absorb, dropped below
9 amps in absorb and waiting a minute (90 seconds) went to Float.

Forced another Bulk and it repeated.

what version of firmware are you using, Vic ?  I can try to put that into this
Classic and see what happens.  This Classic is a 150 if that matters.

Thanks,
boB

[Vic]

Hi boB,

Thanks for running that experiment.

My Classic/s are 150s.  S/N in the low 1800s.

The FW is what was referred to as 6/29/12.   EA works fine in a normal charge cycle,  but Force Bulk appears to do absolutely nothing with an EA value set,  unless the CC is delivering more than that EA setting.  (as an aside,  the MX-60 works exactly the same way here).

48 V battery bank.  ONLY PV input and ONLY from this single Classic 150.  We do have Min and Max times set.

When I get a chance,  will try the latest production Cl 150 Fw.    Am going through a Re-Roof on a 100 year-old house with some soffit repair etc,  so am in town and distracted,  not that near the solar-powered site.   73,  Thanks boB!     Vic