New LiFePO4 installation charge parameters

[ClassicCrazy]

I tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry

[ClassicCrazy]

Update: Full sun day, same issues with the Tristar, battery is being returned. Was nearing the Absorb voltage, I set 28.8v, low end of recommendation from supplier. The Tristar, like the Classic, went to Absorb a few 1/10's at least early, battery voltage was around 28.5v-28.6v, suddenly the inverter tripped, voltage bouncing around, so I shut it all down. I had seen what I needed to see.

that is too bad. I see you are in Canada so hope they either send you a new battery soon or you find a different one. Can you buy a couple inexpensive lead acid deep cycles to get you by until you figure out a new lithium ?
Larry

[Muskoka]

I put my systems back together, and did get a "little" test with the Classic. I set Absorb to 28.2v, 3 mins. no End Amps.

Because the system was very close to being full from earlier, there wasn't much Bulk time. But it was putting 45 amps into the battery for a few minutes.

New firmware installed of course, it went to Absorb exactly at the set point of 28.2v, not a bit early like before. It was in Absorb for close to the 3 minutes set, the whole time the current gradually decreased, input voltage increased slowly. I wasn't on a timer, but at 11 amps it transitioned to Float, no hiccups, funniness, so it had likely hit the 3 minute mark. I was standing right there watching the amps come down on the MNGP, and it hit 11 amps (likely 3 mins), and went right to 0, and Float. Was nice to see.

So, no jumping around, everything looked very calm, and doing what it should be doing.

The first time I tried with Absorb at 28.2v days ago it didn't do too well. Now looks like the wet weather is pushed back to Thursday, so I might get a few more tests in.

[Muskoka]

I do have my old lead acid batts/system, well half of the original 24v, now running as 12v. One batt is fine, the other has one pretty weak cell, but I can limp on it for a while. Other two went for scrap lead, which is only 15 cents a pound now. I took 2 8L16's, a group 27, and a small atv battery to the junk yard/recycler that I always go to, got $35 for the whole lot, a few years back I got that amount for one 8L16, geeez.

I've sent a message to the battery seller, see what he says, I'm ready to send it back for a refund, but I told him I'd wait for his response before doing anything. Purchased through Amazon, and still have until next Wednesday to return it.

Speaking of cheap lead acid, bought my last one about 3 years ago, was $350 dollars, right around $400 after tax. Inquired about them around 5 months ago, $650 out the door after tax. Not so cheap anymore. Whe I told them what I used to pay they looked in the system and said yup, price has gone up. Can buy LiFePO4 at a much better deal now.

[Muskoka]

When I was doing the firmware update I did have to cycle the Classic a few times for it to take, and start doing the update. I think Bob mentioned in a previous post that was normal.

[boB]

I tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry

Larry.  Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?

Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?

I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.

If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.

Did any of this happen ?

MNGP version 3785.  Classic version 3786 are the new ones.

boB

[boB]

When I was doing the firmware update I did have to cycle the Classic a few times for it to take, and start doing the update. I think Bob mentioned in a previous post that was normal.

Sorry, I did not mean to edit your post.

Yeah, I am not sure what's up but we got it eventually to update without too much time spent I guess.

Thank you for trying that !

[ClassicCrazy]

I tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry

Larry.  Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?

Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?

I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.

If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.

Did any of this happen ?

MNGP version 3785.  Classic version 3786 are the new ones.

boB

Classic 150 here - I updated Classic first, then MNGP . Not sure if it made a difference but when I first did the update I didn't have the updater program closed and I saw Got Comm on the mngp screen. I unplugged that , and as I said before tried to update a couple more times making sure I shut off updater and unplugged usb at the right times. Always the same - I got into the solar update screen and then selected lithium, voltage, and time. But after that I hear some slight clicking noises - the fan initialization on the Classic never seemed to run and mngp was just stuck on sending data. I should have video taped it but was before breakfast and I didnt' think of that.
I then tried updating to the previous firmware a number of times, tried the vmm and hardware reset with jumpers. Nothing worked - no fans on startup - always stuck on the sending data screen.
So I gave up and I have another Classic here so I replaced it , updated that firmware with with newest one off midnite site and it all went well . So somehow the other Classic got broke - maybe just mngp ? I didn't want to swap that out with the new one I just put on because don't want to mess anything up.
Initially I did use both of your newest codes - but am using a different computer for updates and maybe I didn't get the codes right ? I have to save them using notepad and then put the names on them because when I download all I got was  big screen of data.
The newer mngp code must of taken since I saw the new lithium selection.
Larry

[boB]

I tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry

Larry.  Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?

Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?

I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.

If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.

Did any of this happen ?

MNGP version 3785.  Classic version 3786 are the new ones.

boB

Classic 150 here - I updated Classic first, then MNGP . Not sure if it made a difference but when I first did the update I didn't have the updater program closed and I saw Got Comm on the mngp screen. I unplugged that , and as I said before tried to update a couple more times making sure I shut off updater and unplugged usb at the right times. Always the same - I got into the solar update screen and then selected lithium, voltage, and time. But after that I hear some slight clicking noises - the fan initialization on the Classic never seemed to run and mngp was just stuck on sending data. I should have video taped it but was before breakfast and I didnt' think of that.
I then tried updating to the previous firmware a number of times, tried the vmm and hardware reset with jumpers. Nothing worked - no fans on startup - always stuck on the sending data screen.
So I gave up and I have another Classic here so I replaced it , updated that firmware with with newest one off midnite site and it all went well . So somehow the other Classic got broke - maybe just mngp ? I didn't want to swap that out with the new one I just put on because don't want to mess anything up.
Initially I did use both of your newest codes - but am using a different computer for updates and maybe I didn't get the codes right ? I have to save them using notepad and then put the names on them because when I download all I got was  big screen of data.
The newer mngp code must of taken since I saw the new lithium selection.
Larry

I tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry

Larry.  Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?

Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?

I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.

If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.

Did any of this happen ?

MNGP version 3785.  Classic version 3786 are the new ones.

boB

Classic 150 here - I updated Classic first, then MNGP . Not sure if it made a difference but when I first did the update I didn't have the updater program closed and I saw Got Comm on the mngp screen. I unplugged that , and as I said before tried to update a couple more times making sure I shut off updater and unplugged usb at the right times. Always the same - I got into the solar update screen and then selected lithium, voltage, and time. But after that I hear some slight clicking noises - the fan initialization on the Classic never seemed to run and mngp was just stuck on sending data. I should have video taped it but was before breakfast and I didnt' think of that.
I then tried updating to the previous firmware a number of times, tried the vmm and hardware reset with jumpers. Nothing worked - no fans on startup - always stuck on the sending data screen.
So I gave up and I have another Classic here so I replaced it , updated that firmware with with newest one off midnite site and it all went well . So somehow the other Classic got broke - maybe just mngp ? I didn't want to swap that out with the new one I just put on because don't want to mess anything up.
Initially I did use both of your newest codes - but am using a different computer for updates and maybe I didn't get the codes right ? I have to save them using notepad and then put the names on them because when I download all I got was  big screen of data.
The newer mngp code must of taken since I saw the new lithium selection.
Larry

Larry, when you get a chance, please plug the MNGP into the Classic 150 you think got updated and see what revision and date shows up on the MNGP revision screen.

Sounds like your Classic did not update.  OR that classic did not get turned off and on again.  Did the MNGP send ANY data to the classic or did it just stop after a while ?

I have to figure this out

Thanks

[ClassicCrazy]

The MNGP started to send data so it said - but then stopped .
I will hook the dead classic up again sometime just to power and see if I can get it back to life somehow. All the updates I did to it completed I thought.
When I tried the hardware reboot - turn classic on , put jumper 4 on , then jumper 1 - it never did flash the three lights on the Classic like instructions said it should.
Sun is going down here now so I probably won't play with these Classics again until tomorrow.
Did you want me to plug a good working mngp screen into the Classic that failed ? Or to plug the MNGP screen from the failed Classic into another Classic ?
Larry

[Muskoka]

Hope it's alright to post a link to a video. I had watched this before, had forgot about it. Very good info for anyone wondering about LifePO4 charging parameters.

https://youtu.be/qZg4Jxftw-c?si=c7QXzvQPSw8CAAJp

[Muskoka]

Question. This battery is only having issues when the voltage is at the highest point in the charge cycle. Likely from cell imbalance and runner cells that are tripping the BMS to shut off, turn on, shut off, turn on, etc.

How would I go about trying to balance the cells in a closed system like this. I have no access to the BMS, so what steps do I need to take to balance. There's no Equalization like lead acid, so that's not an option. Seems to be a cat chasing it's tail. If I need to raise the voltage to balance, it's going to trip HVD.

Or, can balance be achieved with high voltage but very low current. I do have an adjustable power supply here, 30v max, 10a. Could that be used to try and balance cells. I still can't monitor anything, but would it be worth a try.

Battery return is being worked on, but I haven't 100% given up on trying "something" to get this battery usable, with a near full charge, and not only 80-85 percent. I need every amp out of this battery I can get.

I can't imagine that only charging to say 28.0v Bulk/Absorb is enough to balance cells? Battery seller lists balance voltage as 29v. I could set my power supply to 29v, and low current, a few amps, one amp?

[boB]

The MNGP started to send data so it said - but then stopped .
I will hook the dead classic up again sometime just to power and see if I can get it back to life somehow. All the updates I did to it completed I thought.
When I tried the hardware reboot - turn classic on , put jumper 4 on , then jumper 1 - it never did flash the three lights on the Classic like instructions said it should.
Sun is going down here now so I probably won't play with these Classics again until tomorrow.
Did you want me to plug a good working mngp screen into the Classic that failed ? Or to plug the MNGP screen from the failed Classic into another Classic ?
Larry

Thank you Larry !

The Classic should not need any jumpers on it.  In fact, the BOOT jumper will keep it from booting.

If the fans and the 3 inside LEDs did not come up, then it either needs the boot jumper removed or it got as far as erasing the main firmware (but not the bootloader!) and just needs to be tried again.

I had to try a few times turning the Classic off and on after the program says to turn it off and on.  It should connect within 1 to 2 seconds otherwise you have to turn it off and on again.

I'm not sure why it is taking a few times to do that ?  As I remembered, Matt, the programmer at the time, had taken my original Classic update program and made it work way better.  It's Windows so I don't know the real deep internals of that.  Just the basic USB interfacing which at the time, was quite a challenge for me.

Thanks for taking the time to try again.  Some day, I should make it out to your place and we can play.

boB

[boB]

Question. This battery is only having issues when the voltage is at the highest point in the charge cycle. Likely from cell imbalance and runner cells that are tripping the BMS to shut off, turn on, shut off, turn on, etc.

How would I go about trying to balance the cells in a closed system like this. I have no access to the BMS, so what steps do I need to take to balance. There's no Equalization like lead acid, so that's not an option. Seems to be a cat chasing it's tail. If I need to raise the voltage to balance, it's going to trip HVD.

Or, can balance be achieved with high voltage but very low current. I do have an adjustable power supply here, 30v max, 10a. Could that be used to try and balance cells. I still can't monitor anything, but would it be worth a try.

Battery return is being worked on, but I haven't 100% given up on trying "something" to get this battery usable, with a near full charge, and not only 80-85 percent. I need every amp out of this battery I can get.

I can't imagine that only charging to say 28.0v Bulk/Absorb is enough to balance cells? Battery seller lists balance voltage as 29v. I could set my power supply to 29v, and low current, a few amps, one amp?

Yes, I was going to say to try a power supply if you had one.  It MAY have a similar problem but if the batteries want 40+ amps, that power supply is probably going to current limit and it won't get anything into the battery. 

Maybe this battery can balance at high voltage and low current and that is what it was doing ?  Doesn't make much sense though, does it.

boB

[ClassicCrazy]

Question. This battery is only having issues when the voltage is at the highest point in the charge cycle. Likely from cell imbalance and runner cells that are tripping the BMS to shut off, turn on, shut off, turn on, etc.

How would I go about trying to balance the cells in a closed system like this. I have no access to the BMS, so what steps do I need to take to balance. There's no Equalization like lead acid, so that's not an option. Seems to be a cat chasing it's tail. If I need to raise the voltage to balance, it's going to trip HVD.

Or, can balance be achieved with high voltage but very low current. I do have an adjustable power supply here, 30v max, 10a. Could that be used to try and balance cells. I still can't monitor anything, but would it be worth a try.

Battery return is being worked on, but I haven't 100% given up on trying "something" to get this battery usable, with a near full charge, and not only 80-85 percent. I need every amp out of this battery I can get.

I can't imagine that only charging to say 28.0v Bulk/Absorb is enough to balance cells? Battery seller lists balance voltage as 29v. I could set my power supply to 29v, and low current, a few amps, one amp?

For my bms overvolt protection on one or more cell will shut off all the charging , but still allow battery discharge. For my bms the balancing goes on until the cell overvolt protection falls to a programmed cell release voltage and then it will allow charging again. You need to add up all the cells to get the total battery voltage - so if there are cells a lot higher than the others then the battery voltage can look okay , but the high cells will rise rapidly . The bms you have probably will only shunt 100mv or so . Charging it slowly at 1 amp or so for a long time may eventually get the cells balanced. But I am assuming how your bms works and don't know.
Larry