I finished up the install of my Classic 150 wind turbine control system today. I have some "clean up" work and tweaks to do to my wiring, but it's all hooked up and commissioned. I have some questions.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Classic-Installed.jpg)
First of all, I used the manual and also comments from boB on here to get things set up. Commissioning went fairly smoothly. For some reason, the Classic thought that my battery bank was 24V. My battery bank voltage is at 50.8V, so I'm not sure how it defaulted to 24V. In any case, I went through the wizard and chose the correct 48V bank selection.
I went through and set up AUX 1 (3 phase AC diversion) and AUX 2 (DC water heater diversion) just like boB detailed on here in the past. Thanks to boB's detailed descriptions, that was fairly straight forward. I just printed out his comments on the AUX 1 and AUX 2 settings and followed them. Straight forward.
Here are some issues/questions I have so far:
1) When I got to status, the IN shows 34.9V even when there is NO wind or incoming power. Why doesn't it show 0.0V?
2) When the wind picked up a little (10-12mph), I watched to see the power output and it shows 0000 watts and 0.0A. I saw IN voltage over 60V once and still the Classic was not outputting any power. Why isn't the Classic outputting power when there is clearly power being generated and input to the Classic?
3) This may be related to #2, but on the status screen it shows "Battery Over V" on the screen. Why is the 48V battery bank considered overvoltage when it's only 50.8V?
I have a feeling that #3 might be related to the fact that the Classic selected 24V battery bank during initial comissioning. I set it to 48V when going through the wizard. Maybe it somehow still thinks that I have a 24V battery bank and so the Classic is shut down.
4) Related to the Wizard, I chose 2500W for my turbine and used 48V for "rated turbine voltage". Is that right, or should I have selected 125V since that will be the maximum output on the turbine (limited by AUX 1 diversion)?
When using the wind curve editor, I used the default (53V, 0A) first set point. On the last set point on the curve, I left it close to the default (122V, 60A). Actually, I tweaked that last point to 125V.
I know from the power curves on my HY-2000 wind turbine that at 125V I would be at around 750RPM and 3400W. If that is the case, then the amps at that point would be 27.2A (3400W/125V).
5) Should I set that last point to on the curve to 27A???
I have watched the video boB made about the wind curve editor, but I'm still not sure about the best way to make the wind curve.
There is a wind storm predicted for Thursday with wind gusts as high as 40+mph expected. I want to try to get this sorted out before then! That will be a good time to put the Classic through it's paces and see how it does.
Since it appears that my Classic is shut down anyway, I applied the manual brake to my turbine. We are getting some nice winds right now (10-12mph) that would be great for testing and seeing how the Classic works, but unfortunately I am keeping the turbine shut down until I figure out why the Classic is not working as expected under light winds. I don't want to risk some stronger winds coming up that might cause trouble.
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
I finished up the install of my Classic 150 wind turbine control system today. I have some "clean up" work and tweaks to do to my wiring, but it's all hooked up and commissioned. I have some questions.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Classic-Installed.jpg)
First of all, I used the manual and also comments from boB on here to get things set up. Commissioning went fairly smoothly. For some reason, the Classic thought that my battery bank was 24V. My battery bank voltage is at 50.8V, so I'm not sure how it defaulted to 24V. In any case, I went through the wizard and chose the correct 48V bank selection.
I went through and set up AUX 1 (3 phase AC diversion) and AUX 2 (DC water heater diversion) just like boB detailed on here in the past. Thanks to boB's detailed descriptions, that was fairly straight forward. I just printed out his comments on the AUX 1 and AUX 2 settings and followed them. Straight forward.
Finally got it !! CooL !
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
Here are some issues/questions I have so far:
1) When I got to status, the IN shows 34.9V even when there is NO wind or incoming power. Why doesn't it show 0.0V?
The voltage is there because of a resistor across the internal relay contacts. It kinda helps the unit connect at startup.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
2) When the wind picked up a little (10-12mph), I watched to see the power output and it shows 0000 watts and 0.0A. I saw IN voltage over 60V once and still the Classic was not outputting any power. Why isn't the Classic outputting power when there is clearly power being generated and input to the Classic?
I suspect it doesn't turn on because of the "Battery Over V" message (see 3 below).... The Charger set points are most likely still set for some low value (24V ?)
Normally, there is really not any power available at "just" over the battery voltage. It depends on the turbine of course. The highest
battery voltage you will want is around 60 Volts so I would think that the cut-in voltage will want to be something over 60V at least...
Maybe 70V ? That will take some playing of course. The reasoning is that if you connect a 60V battery to a 60V battery, you won't get
any charging. The input voltage (not-connected yet) must be higher than the output (battery) voltage in order for you to get any
output power when it does connect. How high the voltage must be over the output voltage depends on the electrical size of the
input power source. Larger, more powerful wind turbine can start to charge at a somewhat lower voltage than a small turbine.
What I find, if the cut-in voltage is set too low, is that when the Classic turned on because the input voltage went above that point 1
graph value, there won't be any power available and the Classic will drag the input voltage right back down to that 0 Amp set point
voltage and sit there with no power being produced. Why have the Classic start up if it isn't going to make some power ?
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
3) This may be related to #2, but on the status screen it shows "Battery Over V" on the screen. Why is the 48V battery bank considered overvoltage when it's only 50.8V?
I have a feeling that #3 might be related to the fact that the Classic selected 24V battery bank during initial comissioning. I set it to 48V when going through the wizard. Maybe it somehow still thinks that I have a 24V battery bank and so the Classic is shut down.
Hmmmm... Well, yes, some charger set-point voltage is evidently set lower than your battery voltage. When you went through the wizard, at the end, did it tell
you that the values were sent to the Classic ?? If not, then maybe the wizard didn't quite complete and save the values to the Classic ?
You can tell what nominal voltage the Classic is set for by getting to the other status screens (or charger volts menu)... While in main status, press the right arrow key
a few times till you see the software dates and Classic version and at the top right corner it will show you the battery nominal voltage. If it says
24V then that's your problem and you should go through the wizard one more time. Remember to go all the way through to the end and make
sure it says data saved. The latest software changes this to multiple presses of the STATUS button, with the option of using the right arrow key.
Another way to do the same thing is to go to the menu and get into the CHARGER menu and hit "volts". Then, instead of just raising the Absorb
Float and EQ voltage settings, press the soft-right key labeled "QuickSet"... (this will eventually be moved to an option when entering the wizard)
It will (at the moment) obnoxiously tell you to turn the mode to OFF (sorry about that, this will also be fixed), and press the UP button until you see 48V in the
upper right corner. This sets the default voltages and nominal battery voltage. This is of course the most important settings in the Classic
next to the mode (wind, solar, etc).
The Classic will not wake up if the battery voltage is above the charger set points. This is also the case if the message says "Battery Over V"
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
4) Related to the Wizard, I chose 2500W for my turbine and used 48V for "rated turbine voltage". Is that right, or should I have selected 125V since that will be the maximum output on the turbine (limited by AUX 1 diversion)?
When using the wind curve editor, I used the default (53V, 0A) first set point. On the last set point on the curve, I left it close to the default (122V, 60A). Actually, I tweaked that last point to 125V.
I know from the power curves on my HY-2000 wind turbine that at 125V I would be at around 750RPM and 3400W. If that is the case, then the amps at that point would be 27.2A (3400W/125V).
The high points (right side of the graph) sounds fine to me. However, right now, the wizard's wind selection does not do much to your graph as yet so
you are doing right by hand editing what you started out with.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
5) Should I set that last point to on the curve to 27A???
If you only want to get 27 Amps out of the Classic then, yes. There is also a current limit in the CHARGER/LIMITS menu.
Remember that when the current limit is reached (current limit set in the CHARGER menu), the input (turbine) voltage will be
raised as the wind speed goes up to keep that current down to the limit that was set in the LIMITS menu. Other than that,
the highest current you should see if pretty much that right hand value of the wind graph. Battery voltage reaching Absorb or
Float will have the same affect of course.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
I have watched the video boB made about the wind curve editor, but I'm still not sure about the best way to make the wind curve.
Until I get the wind learn mode done, you're doing all you can. Sounds like what you have entered so far is not very far off.
I would raise the cutin voltage though. (step 1, left side of graph)
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 08, 2011, 09:16:22 PM
There is a wind storm predicted for Thursday with wind gusts as high as 40+mph expected. I want to try to get this sorted out before then! That will be a good time to put the Classic through it's paces and see how it does.
Since it appears that my Classic is shut down anyway, I applied the manual brake to my turbine. We are getting some nice winds right now (10-12mph) that would be great for testing and seeing how the Classic works, but unfortunately I am keeping the turbine shut down until I figure out why the Classic is not working as expected under light winds. I don't want to risk some stronger winds coming up that might cause trouble.
Edward
You should try and get it running of course if possible. Depending on the version of software, since you are going to use the Aux 2 PWM output, you should update your firmware if possible to the latest. I made a change that will most likely help. The Aux 2 PWM mode WAS based on AVERAGE voltage (input V) and really should be based on PEAK voltage as it is now for diversion. Otherwise, the input voltage might overshoot for around a 1/2 second to 3/4 of a second. Luckily, wind turbines don't usually go up in voltage all that fast so it might be OK. I installed a simple clipper last week up in the San Juan islands using the Teledyne DC SSR and some resistors and Aux 2 PWM based on PV input voltage and it looks like it's going to work fine. We will see. We also have a strong wind warning for tomorrow which may just be based on your wind warning coming up on Thursday.
I may post more later, after I've eaten dinner.
boB
boB, You were right (and my suspicion was correct) that the Classic was set to a 24V battery bank. I went through the Wizard 3 times and the same thing happened each time. The last time, I jotted down some notes...
While going through the Wizard, when it got to the point where it asks to selected "Controller Mode", I selected "Wind" and entered the turbine data.
Then a screen comes up that says "Go To -> Menu, Mode, Windtrack, Setup, Graph before turning ON." (7J)
The next screen says, "Please consult manual and video for additional setup instructions." (7K)
If I select ENTER to go on, then it just starts the Wizard all over again (losing all the data that I input).
Once I figured out that was happening, then I just forgot the Wizard and went in to the appropriate menu selections and made my settings manually. Now my Classic looks like it's ready to work (as soon as we get some more wind). It displays "Resting" instead of the "Battery Over V".
As a side note, when I went into the battery menu, there is a selection shown as "Type". When I click that, there is only a blank screen. I'm just mentioning that in case you want to change that (if you haven't already done so).
I plan to use AUX 1 for my Clipper with my 3 phase SSR diverting to a 3 phase resistor/heater box to limit "PV" input voltage (I have it set at 125V high and 123V low).
1) Do you think that AUX 1 will be fast enough to respond to keep the Classic input voltage under control?
I see you set up the faster AUX 2 with PWM for your Clipper experiment. I'm hoping my set up with AUX 1 controlling my 3 phase AC SSR "Clipper" to keep input voltage under control (and also limit turbine speed) will work well. I have my AUX 2 set up to "buzz" when battery bank voltage reaches a certain point. I use AUX 2 to control my DC SSR that diverts off the battery bank to my water heater. This is the primary way that I utilize my wind power. The battery bank stays in float mode most of the time, and I just use most of the wind power to heat water.
By the way, I like the ability manually turn on/off the AUX outputs and the toggle mode. I was able to confirm that my SSR's were working as expected.
I experimented some more with the wind curve editor. I set up a new wind curve.
2) If I have my current limit set to 88A, then should my end point (step 16) be set to 88A?
3) Is the purpose of setting the AMPS at a specific voltage to tell the Classic what I expect the AMPS will be at that point?
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the relation of the V and A on the Classic wind curve. Somehow, in my mind, I think that I should be setting the points on the wind curve using the power curve information that I have on my wind turbine. But, I confess that I am not 100% sure the best way to translate that power curve data to an optimized Classic wind curve. I understand how V & A are related in the real world (as volts go up, then amps go down & vice versa for any given power), but I'm not sure if that's exactly the same on the Classic wind curve.
A written description in the manual explaining the theory behind the Classic wind curve (a technical explanation of what it represents) would probably help people like me better understand what I'm doing when creating a Classic wind curve.
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
boB, You were right (and my suspicion was correct) that the Classic was set to a 24V battery bank. I went through the Wizard 3 times and the same thing happened each time. The last time, I jotted down some notes...
While going through the Wizard, when it got to the point where it asks to selected "Controller Mode", I selected "Wind" and entered the turbine data.
Then a screen comes up that says "Go To -> Menu, Mode, Windtrack, Setup, Graph before turning ON." (7J)
AHA !!! This tells me that you ran into an old wizard bug ! That Classic has an older software version !
You should probably update it. If you can do this before the wind storm, it will be better, mainly because
the AUX 1 and AUX 2 diversion also will work better. They used to be based on average voltage and are
now triggered by peak voltage. The voltage will overshoot for 1/2 second or so with the old method, which
probably won't be a problem, but best to have the latest software.
The latest software upload web page is here now...
http://www.midnitesolar.com/firmware.php
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
The next screen says, "Please consult manual and video for additional setup instructions." (7K)
If I select ENTER to go on, then it just starts the Wizard all over again (losing all the data that I input).
Yep. We felt there was too much information to put in the wizard at this point. Unfortunately, that
bug would not let you continue when in wind mode and that's why your 48V battery voltage did not
get sent to the Classic. Sorry about that !!
In wind and hydro mode we also turn the mode "OFF" because we know there is more setup required.
The wizard will eventually be "betterized" and work the way you would think it should.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
Once I figured out that was happening, then I just forgot the Wizard and went in to the appropriate menu selections and made my settings manually. Now my Classic looks like it's ready to work (as soon as we get some more wind). It displays "Resting" instead of the "Battery Over V".
As a side note, when I went into the battery menu, there is a selection shown as "Type". When I click that, there is only a blank screen. I'm just mentioning that in case you want to change that (if you haven't already done so).
The new firmware gets rid of that empty "Type" menu.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
I plan to use AUX 1 for my Clipper with my 3 phase SSR diverting to a 3 phase resistor/heater box to limit "PV" input voltage (I have it set at 125V high and 123V low).
1) Do you think that AUX 1 will be fast enough to respond to keep the Classic input voltage under control?
Yes, you are using the correct Aux output for using an AC SSR. The only thing that would be better is the latest software (firmware) because
it will respond faster because of the peak triggering rather than the average voltage triggering.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
I see you set up the faster AUX 2 with PWM for your Clipper experiment. I'm hoping my set up with AUX 1 controlling my 3 phase AC SSR "Clipper" to keep input voltage under control (and also limit turbine speed) will work well. I have my AUX 2 set up to "buzz" when battery bank voltage reaches a certain point. I use AUX 2 to control my DC SSR that diverts off the battery bank to my water heater. This is the primary way that I utilize my wind power. The battery bank stays in float mode most of the time, and I just use most of the wind power to heat water.
Excellent ! Yes, I was using that Teledyne DC SSR and load resistors for the clipper in the San Juan islands. So far it is working well.
This should work fine, although I think the peak voltage triggering, (peak battery voltage in this case), might work better. Battery voltage may not
change as fast as wind turbine voltage because of the extra load it has, but peak is probably better. Again, latest firmware if you can get it uploaded
before the storm would be best. You may eventually want to try adding power load resistors in series with that SSR. This will limit the current that
will be seen by your SSR that could possibly be bad for it, over time, due to the inertial of the wind turbine. Then again, this may just not be a problem
at all.
I believe that we (MidNite) will be in the power load resistor business as well. We do have some resistors and I should post some pictures and
descriptions etc. of what we have to offer. They are, like, 1500 Watts and also should have some 300 Watt versions for AC SSR systems
like you are using on the turbine side.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
By the way, I like the ability manually turn on/off the AUX outputs and the toggle mode. I was able to confirm that my SSR's were working as expected.
I experimented some more with the wind curve editor. I set up a new wind curve.
2) If I have my current limit set to 88A, then should my end point (step 16) be set to 88A?
I would set the end of the wind curve editor Amps to just less than the current limit set in the CHARGER / LIMITS menu.
BUT, it shouldn't really matter. If it did, then that I would call a bug. It should just work, that is, work as best it can
with the settings and adjustments you have made. We're trying to make sure this happens automatically.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
3) Is the purpose of setting the AMPS at a specific voltage to tell the Classic what I expect the AMPS will be at that point?
You're close ! It's actually the reverse of that. The battery AMPS tells the Classic what input VOLTAGE to be.
If the battery Amps goes to zero, for instance, the input voltage goes to the lowest voltage (left side point) on
the graph.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the relation of the V and A on the Classic wind curve. Somehow, in my mind, I think that I should be setting the points on the wind curve using the power curve information that I have on my wind turbine. But, I confess that I am not 100% sure the best way to translate that power curve data to an optimized Classic wind curve.
Edward
You are very close to getting it working I think. You will want to make sure it is working correctly, (mainly the diversion part) before your
bit wind storm comes. We can try to keep in close contact while this storm is going on.
Please feel free to call me or Ryan with questions...
360-403-7207 Ryan and tech support can be found by pressing 2 after it answers.
If you need to talk with me, press 5 (or zero ?) and ask for boB... We are getting more "bobs" here so it's
going to get kinda rough nailing down which one you want.
boB
Thanks for the info boB. I will try to update my firmware today.
The weather forecast is showing wind gusts up to 24mph today, but it's supposed to come from the South, so I probably won't see much action today. I live in a canyon which goes East-West and is right along the foothills of a small mountain range. Winds from the South usually shoot right over the top of us. We are getting some erratic, small wind gusts now, but nothing really good for producing power. I did see the Classic producing 400-500W at one time, so I know things are working now.
Tomorrow, they are predicting wind gusts up to 30mph during the day and up to 40's Thursday night. Those winds are predicted from the West which is our prevailing wind direction. That's when things start to rock and roll down here in the canyon as the wind is channeled right into my turbine!
I need to take my daughter to an orthodontist appointment tomorrow morning, so I'll probably keep the turbine shut down while I'm gone. When I get home, I'll release the brake and let 'er rip! Not rip apart, I hope! ;D
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 02:34:48 PM
Thanks for the info boB. I will try to update my firmware today.
The weather forecast is showing wind gusts up to 24mph today, but it's supposed to come from the South, so I probably won't see much action today. I live in a canyon which goes East-West and is right along the foothills of a small mountain range. Winds from the South usually shoot right over the top of us. We are getting some erratic, small wind gusts now, but nothing really good for producing power. I did see the Classic producing 400-500W at one time, so I know things are working now.
Wonderful ! It's working ! I'm glad you finally got the unit and doing something.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 02:34:48 PM
Tomorrow, they are predicting wind gusts up to 30mph during the day and up to 40's Thursday night. Those winds are predicted from the West which is our prevailing wind direction. That's when things start to rock and roll down here in the canyon as the wind is channeled right into my turbine!
30 MPH !!! Oh NO !! Actually, I was worried about gusts up to 70 MPH or higher like those guys in the San Juans are going to see.
No sweat ! Hopefully you can use that power and not have to dump much, if any. I really appreciate that you are being
careful with things, especially while you aren't there to watch it. Very prudent and good idea for now, until you have a
better feel for how things are going to work in higher winds.
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 09, 2011, 02:34:48 PM
I need to take my daughter to an orthodontist appointment tomorrow morning, so I'll probably keep the turbine shut down while I'm gone. When I get home, I'll release the brake and let 'er rip! Not rip apart, I hope! ;D
Edward
OK then... We'll stay "braced" for wind gusts while you're at the orthodontist !
(I had braces for 5 years BTW)
boB
Went through the Firmware update process. The directions in the latest manual on setting up the COM port and such were straight forward. I just followed the directions step by step and everything went as described.
I ran the update twice because I was not sure if it worked on the first attempt. I followed the directions on the pop up windows. When I clicked the "Update Classic 150V" button, the black dialog window popped up and told me to turn on the Classic. I did so and the black screen quickly disappeared. Then I followed the directions to power down the Classic and power it back up. When the dates show on the screen, I see 1/28/2011 under the words CLASSIC 150. In the lower right hand side of the window, I see 2/7/2011.
This does not seem like the software was updated. I am expecting to see newer dates. That's why I went through the update routine again but I get the same dates displayed.
Any ideas on what might be happening?
Edward
Edward
You may have found a Bug I had here one of my XP laptops would do that a lot I would just keep going through the process and after a few attempts it would work. For reference the Classic will take several minutes to upload and the MNGP will take around 10-15 minutes I need to time these one day.
I have switched to another XP laptop and it goes every time. Let us know if you can not get it to work with repeated attempts.
OK, Ryan. Good to know. I'll try some more.
I have a laptop that I can drag down here to try also if it doesn't work no my desktop. Thankfully, my office (which is in my utility room :)) is in the same room as my RE stuff. The Midnite supplied USB cable is just long enough to reach around the corner and connect.
Edward
Edward, did you change the com port to com 8 ?? If not, then it may not work and the
black screen will not show "Com 8 opened" and count up from 0% to 100% and will
close in about 1 minute.
boB
Mornin' Guys,
boB, Yes I did go through and change the COM port to COM 8.
Ryan, I did have to go through and attempt to do the update several times until it finally "took" and actually updated. I'd say that I had to try maybe 5 or 6 times before the update actually worked this morning. Appears to be a bug that prevents the update from working on most attempts (at least with my computer). I verified the date on the Classic to be 3/4/2011, so I know the update worked this time.
Last night, we had Bible study here and since I had a house full of guests, so I didn't want to sneak away :). I needed to finish up this morning. My wife ended up taking my daughter to the orthodontist this morning, so I could fiddle around a little more on my wind turbine system. (boB, 5 years is a long time for braces! My daughter is eager to get them off after 2 years.)
Anyway, this morning I was also working on another fail safe for my turbine system. Having lived through a runaway wind turbine experience, I am very cautious now with what I do. I have an old controller and dump load from an older wind turbine that I have previously (the one that failed). I rewired the load resistors with some 450C rated wire and special high temp steel wire end terminals. I used the terminal blocks on the old controller to just join to some cable going to the DC output of the 3 phase rectifier. I have a 100A Midnite breaker that I wired in to use to manually switch over to the 4kW load (2 x 2kw load resistors). Basically, I used the old controller as a sheet metal enclosure for the load resistors. The idea is if the Classic ever went off line and disconnected my turbine and I had a runaway turbine, I want to be able to load down the turbine in the hopes of keeping the speeds under control so that I could try to use my manual brake (short 3 phases AC output) to stop. My experience is if the winds are too strong, than trying to short the 3 phases may not work to stop the turbine. I figured that a 2 step manual shut down would be better, so I set up the 4kW load resistors to dump right off the DC output of the 3 phase rectifier. Here's a picture of the load resistors with the cover off.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Load-Resistors.jpg)
I did a quick test this morning under light winds (maybe 10mph). I flipped the breaker on my 4kW dump load and it worked, but it appears that the Classic is "reverse" flowing current from the battery bank and feeding it into these load resistors. After a little while, the fans on the Classic kicked on.
I did not expect the Classic to allow the battery to drain into these load resistors. I have these 4kW load resistors wired in right at the DC output terminals of the 3 phase rectifier so that I could divert/dump power right there during an emergency shut down. Again, this is not something I normally plan to use. Just for emergencies. Hopefully NEVER! I just had to test it to see if the idea worked. I suppose if the Classic is offline for some reason and I need to do an emergency shut down, then I wouldn't expect the Classic to allow the battery bank to be drained into those load resistors if it's shut down.
Is the Classic supposed to be able to allow this "reverse" flow?
I didn't expect that and it caught me off guard. My battery bank voltage was dropped after that quick test, so I know that the battery bank was drained some.
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 10, 2011, 12:05:38 PM
I did not expect the Classic to allow the battery to drain into these load resistors. I have these 4kW load resistors wired in right at the DC output terminals of the 3 phase rectifier so that I could divert/dump power right there during an emergency shut down. Again, this is not something I normally plan to use. Just for emergencies. Hopefully NEVER! I just had to test it to see if the idea worked. I suppose if the Classic is offline for some reason and I need to do an emergency shut down, then I wouldn't expect the Classic to allow the battery bank to be drained into those load resistors if it's shut down.
Is the Classic supposed to be able to allow this "reverse" flow?
I didn't expect that and it caught me off guard. My battery bank voltage was dropped after that quick test, so I know that the battery bank was drained some.
Edward
Edward, your home build clipper is VERY nice !!!
The Classic should not be driving your clipper in reverse at all. The Classic IS capable of driving reverse up to a couple of Amps with its
present software, (BTW, that reverse flow we're talking about is how snow melting works.)
BUT if your clipper is on the AC side of the rectifier, that alone should keep it from allowing current to the Classic's output and towards your turbine circuit.
We should probably see a schematic of that clipper and maybe we can figure that part out.
Also, even if the clipper is on the DC side of the rectifier, like it would be for a DC clipper, it should not be clipping
until the input voltage it high, Classic is on and running positive current.
I believe there is some kind of load on the DC side of that rectifier.
Still, the wiring and box is really beautiful !
boB
Edward
You will have to have some form of transfer switch to do this on the dc side. You will need to isolate the Classic before turning these resistors on. I would strongly recommend that you put these resistors on the ac side of the rectifier this will isolate the Classic for you as well as give you the ability to stop things even with an open rectifier.
I do have some load resistors on the AC side that is my real Clipper. Here's the 3 phase resistor/heater box that I use for my AC Clipper. The Classic uses AUX 1 to divert AC to this through the 3 phase SSR when "PV" input voltage gets too high. This is the load box that came with the HY-2000 turbine control system. It appears to have nichrome wire elements inside. I figured it'd be a good match to use as my AC Clipper since it was specifically designed to work with my turbine.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/AC-Dump-Load.jpg)
However, I wanted a back up plan to my back up plan :), so I set up that old controller box as a manual dump for the DC side. This is not controlled by the Classic at all. It is just a disaster backup plan. I just manually flip the breaker switch to dump power to these big green load resistors. What I am thinking about is worst case scenario here... Classic goes down (hopefully that will never happen), and then I've got a free spinning wind turbine in high winds. If that ever happens, then it will be too late to come up with a Plan B. That's why I set up these big load resistors on the DC side of the rectifier.
Ryan, I understand the transfer switch idea. Would it be the same to just power down the Classic by flipping the breaker between the battery bank and Classic?
They changed the wind predictions a bit, and it looks like it might not be as strong today. I'll have to wait and see.
EDIT: Now I see they've changed the wind predictions again! Now they are saying up to 55mph tonight! That's why I want to get all my "PLAN B's" in order now before the big winds come! Hopefully, the Classic will work as it should, and the PLAN B's will not be necesary.
boB, How did your San Juan's turbine with Teledyne SSR Clipper fare during the wind storm yesterday?
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 10, 2011, 02:09:48 PM
Ryan, I understand the transfer switch idea. Would it be the same to just power down the Classic by flipping the breaker between the battery bank and Classic?
Answering for Ryan here. YES! You got it, Edward. That will work great. Now I better take a look at the software to see why
you were able to get enough backward current to make the Classic fans come on.
And, hopefully I will stop reading and posting first thing in the morning while I'm still half asleep !
Quote from: keyturbocars on March 10, 2011, 02:09:48 PM
They changed the wind predictions a bit, and it looks like it might not be as strong today. I'll have to wait and see.
EDIT: Now I see they've changed the wind predictions again! Now they are saying up to 55mph tonight! That's why I want to get all my "PLAN B's" in order now before the big winds come! Hopefully, the Classic will work as it should, and the PLAN B's will not be necesary.
boB, How did your San Juan's turbine with Teledyne SSR Clipper fare during the wind storm yesterday?
Edward
Edward, so far, wonderful on the S.J. system. It still has some good winds today. That clipper was set to come on at
150 Vdc now. This is a 24V bank and so it should start clipping at around 1800 Watts or so. I've already seen that
much power out of it, just randomly checking the current, so I believe that clipper has come into play plenty the last
couple of days. Still windy here.
Keep us posted !
boB
I'm dead in the water!! :( The winds are roaring here now, and it looks like I'll be missing these winds.
Here's what happened....
I had the wind turbine shut down (3 phases shorted out) and I had the Classic shut down (breaker to the battery bank off). There was no external power to the Classsic. I was working on wiring in a switch where I could manually send 12VDC to the 3 phase SSR. Again, another fail safe backup in case the Classic was offline for some reason. Disaster scenario... wind turbine is out of control, I throw the breaker to the Classic and take it off line completely. Then I manually activate my 3 phase AC SSR dump load. Then I manually activate my DC dump load (the 2 big green resistors). And then hoping that all that load would slow the turbine down adequately, I would apply the brake by shorting out the 3 phases.
Anyway, there should have been NO power available to the Classic in any way shape or form, but somehow when I was connecting the control wires to the 3 phase SSR, I had an arc right at the control terminals I was trying to screw on! What in the world?!?! I have no idea where the power came from. The manual circuit that I was wiring in was not energized. Both ends of the Classic were shut down. All I can think of is that maybe there was some power in a capacitor in the Classic??? I was NOT expecting any power at those terminals as I was trying to screw them back to the SSR! The 2 terminals must have shorted out together, but where did the power come from in AUX 1???
I am really frustrated (mostly with myself)!! All this work and I was being EXTRA CAREFUL in all steps of the way. I was within minutes of being able to be ready to confidently roll with this latest wind, and now I'm shut down.
I have checked and double checked and AUX 1 is now dead. The 3 phase SSR that AUX 1 controls appears to be fine. I apply 12VDC directly to it and it activated as expected. I also tried to disconnect the wiring from AUX 1 right at the Classic to be able to check voltage output right at the Classic while I had AUX 1 ON. Nothing. Dead. AUX 2 still works normally. Everything else is working normally on the Classic as far as I can tell. I thought there was a PTC that was resettable to protect AUX 1 from short circuit? I'm still very puzzled where the power came from to make that arc in the first place!!
Any ideas on what might have happened???
Edward :(
I'm not exactly sure what happened Edward, but, the input terminals of the Classic do connect to a fair amount of capacitor storage.
Maybe those caps were charged up ?? But what doesn't make sense is why the positive input of the Classic would be connected
to the Aux terminal block ??
Yes, there is a PTC to limit current coming OUT of the Aux 1 terminal connections and a diode to keep positive voltage from going INTO the Aux 1 positive terminal.
So, I am not understand why Aux 1 may have been hurt. I can definitely see where sparks could come from if the Classic PV input wire
brushed against a ground connection, but that shouldn't hurt anything. It is definitely something to wake one up. This is a good reason
to let the input bleed down for a minute, but you were in a hurry I know.
This is also why we are going to manufacture the complete Clipper add on, including fail-safe, to make sure that nothing can
go wrong... go wrong.... go wrong.... go wrong....
Look over your scenario again closely and see what may have happened. Also, how high of voltage do you think the Classic
was charged up to when this happened ?? How long after that did the sparks occur ??
boB
PS, let me ask this... Are you using Aux 1's little relay ? Or are you using Aux 1 to give you 12 to 15 Volts when
Aux 1 is active ? If you are using it to give you voltage when active, then you should not be able to back drive
it with a positive voltage (less than 200 Volts or so) externally.
Either way, we'll get you going again. Contact Ryan if you need an RMA. OR..... You're kinda
close... Maybe this is an excuse for you to bring your Classic over here and we can have lunch
and talk about this face to face. ;D ;D
boB (again)
boB,
As far as how high the Classic would have been charged up, I don't think it would have been very high. I've had the turbine shut down since earlier this morning. I didn't want to release the turbine today until I was confident I had all my fail safes in place and everything was ready to roll. I was just putting on the final touch of being able to activate the 3 phase SSR manually. You know what happened next.
I've been analyzing this over and over in my head. Here's one additional clue that might play into this. As I was wiring in the circuit where I could manually apply 12VDC to the 3 phase SSR, I made sure that it was not energized. The positive wire was not hooked up to power yet and the switch was OFF. I did have the negative side of the circuit attached to the battery. Could this have somehow provided a path? But how... everything was shut down in terms of live power going in/out of the Classic??
When the arc occured while I was trying to reattach the control wires to the 3 phase SSR, I could smell something that smelled like "electrical hot". I thought perhaps it was from the arc. I immediately stuck my nose on the upper vent of the Classic, and it did have that "hot" smell. That's when I felt sick to my stomach! I opened up the Classic and everything looked fine, but that's just the top board. It did smell like something got hot. UGH!! I wish I never tried to put in that additional manual fail safe. Can't go back now.
I hate these sort of "live and learn" experiences, but I guess God knows I need it somehow!
Edward
Quote from: boB on March 10, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
PS, let me ask this... Are you using Aux 1's little relay ? Or are you using Aux 1 to give you 12 to 15 Volts when
Aux 1 is active ? If you are using it to give you voltage when active, then you should not be able to back drive
it with a positive voltage (less than 200 Volts or so) externally.
Either way, we'll get you going again. Contact Ryan if you need an RMA. OR..... You're kinda
close... Maybe this is an excuse for you to bring your Classic over here and we can have lunch
and talk about this face to face. ;D ;D
boB (again)
I had AUX 1 set up to output the 14VDC directly to the control side of the 3 phase SSR.
Thanks for your help boB! I don't know what I did wrong. I was trying to be so careful. Too bad this didn't happened a week ago. We were just over on the West side to celebrate my Mom's birthday. They live near Lake Tapps (sort of half way between Seattle and Tacoma). This is not the best time for me to take another trip over right now.
I really would like to understand what happened here, because I'm a "live and learn" sort of person and I don't want to repeat this! I wish I could set it up like I planned so I could also manually activate my 3 phase SSR.
Edward
We'll try to figure out what happened, but for now, let's see if maybe that negative line of Aux 1 is just opened...
See if you can get 14 volts between Aux 1 "HOT" and battery ground. If so, just use that negative for the time being.
For Aux 1, since it has the tiny relay contact option, its negative (GND) line goes through
one of the jumpers on the left of the board.
I'm thinking that the ground trace of Aux 1 has been "opened" from too much current, but that should
not make the rest of the Classic unusable. Should just need to use another ground connection for Aux 1
in your case. No more small relay use, maybe.... But you're not using the relay so it shouldn't matter now.
boB
OK. I'll check that out boB. Thanks for the idea.
My wife just called and told me to get the ground beef cooking for dinner. :)
I'll try to check that out (and not burn the ground beef).
Edward
BINGO! You were right boB. I just did what you said and AUX 1 is now alive. The trace must have opened like you said. I don't understand why it opened.
I'm going to release the turbine and let it roll now, and also try to not burn the beef (so I don't get burned when my wife gets home)! :)
Winds are between 15-20mph now, so I'm comfortable trying it out.
Edward
This is not my day! Now the Crydom D1D100 100A DC SSR has failed. :(
It is "stuck" in the closed position and diverting battery power to the water heater all the time. I've thrown the breaker on that to stop the continual water heating. This has NOTHING to do with the Classic. AUX 2 which controls that DC SSR is working normally. Regardless of control input on the DC SSR, it's conducting power all the time now. My water heater diversion load is around 90A, but I can't believe this Crydom which is rated for 100A couldn't handle 90A for the short time it was tested!
Such is life at times. Oh well, it could always be worse.
Edward
One word to describe the Classic.... AWESOME!
(http://www.key-ideas.com/3800W.jpg)
Even though my DC SSR failed, I decided to let 'er roll because I still have my AUX 1 Clipper working.
The winds are not even that strong (20's and gusting to low 30's), and I've seen around 4000W on the Classic so far! I've never seen so much power from this turbine. And if you look at the picture, you'll see that 3800W was only around 100V! I've now set my AUX 1 Clipper to a high of 110V and a low of 108V for now while I go eat dinner!
I was able to experiment some with the AUX 1 settings and tried a high of 80V and a low of 78V. The Classic and my homemade Clipper kept the input voltage capped nicely at 80V even when the winds were gusting over 30mph. VERY NICE!
I LIKE IT!!
Edward
Not bad for just having hooked it up!
And that turbine is evidently pretty awesome, too !
Great job ! Made my day !
boB
Thanks boB, and thanks again for your help.
I was happy after seeing what the Classic can do. And I was also relieved to see that my AC Clipper was going to keep things under control.
I wish that Crydom D1D100 DC SSR didn't fail, but I guess I should know by now if I'm going to play "mad scientist" (as my wife calls me), then I've got to expect some bumps and lumps along the way. According to the specs, that Crydom 100A DC SSR should have been able to handle it. I've got a big enough heat sink (weighs almost 8 lbs).
I wish things always went smoothly and there never were any problems, but that is not the world we live in! My water heater diversion is offline, and so I'm using up some of the wind power to run some select loads in the house. The wind started to calm down tonight, but then it picked back up again. Not real strong winds now, but in the teens and hitting 20's occasionally. Still some good power to be had. I need to get to sleep soon, so I wanted to make sure the Classic keeps feeding in the power while I'm snoozing.
Edward
Did you notice the Crydom getting hot while operating ??
boB
boB,
The Crydom DC SSR failed after only a few minutes of actual use, because I was just manually activating AUX 2 testing out my system.
However, after it "stuck" ON, I did just flip the breaker ON at different times to try to use up some of the power by heating water. I think once I had it ON for maybe 30 minutes continuous, and when I used my laser infrared thermometer to scan different places on the SSR, I was seeing around 120F. The highest I saw on that Crydom DC SSR was 130F.
The temps I scanned on my rectifier and Crydom 3 phase SSR were running around 100-115F.
Seemed reasonable to me. The big heat sink felt warm, but not really hot to touch, but not really hot.
Edward
Edward,
First off, congratrulations! I applaud your tenacity.
Secondly, sorry to learn of the failure, but hopefully something positive is learned. They say the 'pioneers' are somethimes the ones with arrows in their backs.
~kitestrings
Thanks kitestrings.
I plan to contact Crydom and talk with them about this. Perhaps I just received a defective SSR.
I hope they are normally more reliable than this!
Edward
I don't know about your Crydom, but the SSRs I've worked with must have a heatsink attached to work at their max rated A.
Quote from: stephendv on March 12, 2011, 03:02:54 AM
I don't know about your Crydom, but the SSRs I've worked with must have a heatsink attached to work at their max rated A.
True, I tried to make sure I had enough heat sink mass to keep things reliable. This heat sink weighs nearly 8 lbs and I have it set up in vertical position so it should have a natural convection "chimney" effect that should improve heat transfer.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Heat-Sink-1.jpg)
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Heat-Sink-2.jpg)
I just ordered another Crydom 100A DC SSR last night, so I can get this fixed. Since the first one lasted about 5 minutes of operation, I contacted Crydom to inquire about warranty. They told me to contact Element 14 (a Newark company) where I originally ordered that Crydom SSR. They will said they will look into a warranty replacement, but it might take 2 weeks. In the meanwhile, I ordered another D1D100 SSR from them to get up and running again. I'm going to run less heating elements in my water heater for now to get the loads down to around 70A (from 90A). Then if they do come through and give me a warranty replacement SSR, then I might just run two of these SSR's in parallel for extra load carrying capacity. You can see on my heat sink that I positioned that SSR so I could place one right next to it. I was already anticipating this as a possibility, so that's how I laid out the components on the heat sink.
Edward
Lol, now that's a heatsink. Most men go out and buy a red ferrari ;)
Quote from: stephendv on March 14, 2011, 06:11:53 AM
Lol, now that's a heatsink. Most men go out and buy a red ferrari ;)
Hahaha. Yes, and to take it a step further in the spirit of overkill, I might just go with twin "turbos". :)
I ordered a couple Delta 60mm fans cheap on eBay, and I might install those on top of the heat sink. From past mad scientist experiments, I already have some smaller thermostatic snap disc switches which I can use to thermostatically control the fans.
Edward
Great stuff, very glad to see this unfold, thanks!!
Quote from: cdog on March 14, 2011, 11:37:39 AM
Great stuff, very glad to see this unfold, thanks!!
I'm glad that boB decided to make this new charge controller work with wind too!
Tonight, we have some more wind blowing through the area. I was watching my Classic, and I saw peaks of OVER 4400W more than once during wind gusts. That's a LOT of power from this wind turbine!
I look forward to optimizing my wind curve more in the future (or when wind learning in the Classic becomes a reality). In the short time that I've been tweaking my wind curve, I've seen that it can make a noticeable difference in the amount of power that is harvested.
Edward
Edward since your computer is right at hand (by your Classic) have you made any attempts at data logging?
It would be very interesting based on your 'randomized sampling' results so far. There probably are more gust than you are able to make note of... :)
Eric
Eric,
I haven't done anything with datalogging. Sounds like a great idea, because like you indicated... a guy can't be sitting in front of the Classic 24/7 watching for peak wind gusts! :)
Here comes the dumb question (showing my ignorance on the topic), does the Classic already support external datalogging?
This is an area that I have not researched yet.
Sounds interesting.
Edward
Edward, I am not sure this means that there is output every 10 seconds but may be boB can chime in.
from page 44 of the manual
The Classic advertises its address every 10 seconds using the UDP protocol on port (TBD). Advanced
users and programmers may use this feature to identify Classics on their network.
I know that my XBM batt monitor sends data every second and it can be captured if you want, not sure why though. I grab mine every 15 minutes during the day. :) I use Excel to plot it
Eric,
Sounds interesting. Maybe boB will chime in on datalogging capabilities on an external computer. I know the Classic itself has a LOGS menu option. I noticed yesterday that it's logged 12.1kwH so far. We've not had long any really long duration wind events like we often do during the Spring. There have been a few weather systems that have rolled through and brought some strong winds, but they were relatively short lived. I'm looking to some of the longer lived wind storms.
I'm expecting the new DC SSR for my water heating diversion to arrive within the next couple days so I can get my AUX 2 diversion fixed.
I like the way that my AUX1 AC Clipper has been working. Last night, during some wind gusts, I watched as the Classic "feathered" the brake periodically to keep turbine speeds under control. I set my max input voltage to 110V last night. I really like the ability to program when braking occurs to adjust turbine speed. Very nice!
Edward
PS. I just checked my Classic log and it shows 15.5 KWh generated. I might have gotten mixed up and thought it was in the 12's before when it was actually in the 15's. In any case, the winds have not been as strong and consistent as they can be, so I'm hoping for some good power to be generated later this Spring.
A little more show and tell on my Classic 150 controlled HY-2000 wind turbine. I don't think fan cooling of my heat sink would be necessary under most conditions. My assumption is that the normal heat transfer from natural convection should be adequate. However, just to be safe... in case the heat produced during extended high wind events is more than ideal, I am setting up a thermostatically controlled set of fans on top of the heat sink. They probably won't run much of the time, but at least they will offer some extra cooling capacity.
I used dual 24V Delta 60mm ball bearing brushless fans. Power consumption should be minimal since they should not run most of the time. Wired in series, they will draw .11A @ 48V. So, 5-6 watts on occasion is not unreasonable. Chances are the fans will run with the wind turbine is cranking out lots of power, so 6 watts lost is negligible. This empty heat sink in the picture is an extra heat sink I have. I just used it to see how the fans will fit. My actual heat sink is screwed on the wall. I made a small bracket to secure the fans to the wall.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Dual-Fans.jpg)
Here's the Supco snap disc fan switch (thermostat) that I attached to the side of the heat sink. The one terminal on the thermostat is close to the heat sink, but I needed to mount it that way so the heat sensing surface was completely touching aluminum. In any case, I will use an insulated female blade terminal on that side so it will be insulated from the aluminum heat sink.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Heat-Sink-Thermo.jpg)
I'm waiting on a small fuse block that I ordered before I actually wire the fans in place. I ordered a small fuse block to use with some AGC glass fuses for small circuits that I might add (like this). The smaller amp rated AGC glass fuses are made to handle higher voltages. Bussman used to rate the <10a AGC 250VAC fuses to also be able to handle up to 250VDC. I haven't seen that lately, but I have an older chart that showed the 250VAC/VDC ratings. The ATC/ATO plastic blade type fuses are rated for 32VDC max, so I figured the glass fuses were a better choice for my 48V system.
Edward
Edward,
ATC fuses are only rated to 32 VDC, but I'm pretty sure GMT fuses (same size, profile) will get the higher voltage. This is what Solar Converters recommands on their converters for 48 V.
~kitestrings
Edward, maybe another alternative
from Bussman
MAXI Fuses
For protecting circuits in the wiring harness, these high amp fuses feature an enclosed element for protection against shock and sparks. Ideal for protecting high amp aftermarket accessories. Available in 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80 amp ratings.
no mention of Volts though
Thanks kitestrings and Eric for the fuse ideas.
Since these circuits will be very low amps, then I think the AGC glass fuses will be fine. Here's a page I found showing that the Bussmann 0-10A AGC fuses were rated for 250VDC too. Not sure why they don't still show this on their website.
http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/2001.pdf (http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/2001.pdf)
In any case, they should be safe on my 48V system. I'll have 18 gauge wire routed up to the fans. I'm probably only going to use a 1A or maybe a 3A fuse on the circuit going to the fans. I had a 15A 48V battery charger that used the AGC glass fuses, so it seems that they used to be used in the past. I don't anticipate any safety issues.
Edward
Yesterday evening, we had some decent winds come through. Nothing too wild, so it was nice. Started blowing around 6PM and averaged around 16mph and stated tapering off around 12noon today. From what I could see on the log, it appears the Classic logged around 9 kwH in that 18 hour period. If the winds were a little brisker, then it would have really added up. When the winds average over 20mph, then the HY-2000 turbine can really crank out some power. Even so, the winds were fairly consistent last night, and so it added up to something.
Edward
Edward,
Sounds like your getting some positive results.
In your set-up, where I believe your clipping/diverting on the 3-ph AC side to a water heater - in addition to your other system protection efforts described - do you capture somehow the energy going into heating water heater? I'm thinking (perhaps incorrectly) that this energy is 'upstream' of the Classsic so therefore would not be included in you log data.
kind regards,
~kitestrings
Hello kitestrings,
My AUX1 AC Clipper actually diverts power to a 3 phase resistor box (air heater) that came with my HY-2000 wind turbine system. I have this heater box mounted in the garage, so the power heats the air and is wasted. In reality, I don't think it will waste much heat at all, because so far my Clipper has only operated on rare occasions under high wind gusts. We haven't had a lot of wind lately, so I will have to wait and see what happens long term. If I end up wasting too much power, then I will have to consider other options. Safety is my primary concern, and I wanted to make sure my Clipper diversion load would never have the possibility of turning off (like a water heater diversion with thermostat can). With my current AC Clipper arrangement, apart from the resistor wires burning out, I should have unlimited dump capacity during an extended wind storm with dangerously high winds.
My AUX2 diversion is where I use the DC SSR to divert the power from my battery bank to the water heater. This happens when the battery bank is fully charged. Since I am on grid and use my battery bank for emergency backup, most of my wind power is diverted to heat hot water. This works well with 9 of us in the house and a lot of hot water useage.
All my power generation should be logged by the Classic. We have not had a lot of wind lately. We've had a few episodes of decent wind, but not the extended high wind events that we can get this time of year. Spring is usually our best time for high winds, so I suspect the best is yet to come for the windy season.
Edward
My HY-2000 wind turbine control system continues to work well, and the Classic 150 continues to do it's job faithfully. It was breezy this evening (and continues to be windy), and I took a short video clip. This is in 15-20mph winds, so it's not really blowing hard. Sun is going down, so it's a bit dark too.
http://www.key-ideas.com/HY-2000-Video.mpg (http://www.key-ideas.com/HY-2000-Video.mpg)
Edward
I thought I'd post a little more "show and tell" on my Classic 150 controlled HY-2000 wind turbine. Since I once had a runaway turbine (a cheap Chinese junk 2kW turbine), I am now very cautious. The HY-2000 turbine has been great, and the Classic 150 continues to do a great job. Just for peace of mind, I wanted to set up some different manual fail safes to be able to try to slow and shut down my turbine in case of an emergency. I ended up coming up with a 3 level shut down system.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/HY-2000-Braking.jpg)
DC Brake - This 100A breaker manually dumps power from the DC output of my rectifier to a 4kW resistor/heater load.
AC Brake - This breaker is just simply being used as a switch to send 48V battery bank voltage through a telecom voltage converter (48V to 12V). I then send the 12V up to the control input on the 3 phase SSR that I use to divert power to a 3 phase heater box. My Classic 150 controls this same 3 phase SSR through AUX1 as my Clipper. I wired this switch as a way to manually dump all 3 phase output of my turbine to the 3 phase heater box dump load.
AC Stop - This is the typical 3 phase short circuit stop.
So, the way I would shut down in an emergency is to first shut down the Classic. Then load down the turbine with the DC brake (4kW resistor bank) & AC brake (3 phase heater box). This would heavily load down the turbine and slow it down. Then I would try to actuate the breaker that short circuits the 3 phases of the turbine to try to stop the turbine. I have tested this in moderate winds, and everything seems to work as planned. Of course, the true test would be in very high winds. I am expecting that the 4kW load added on top of the 3 phase heater box dump load would be enough to slow the turbine during high winds to the point that I can stop the turbine.
I hope I never encounter the need for an emergency shut down, but just in case I am trying to be prepared.
Edward
PS. boB, When I tried to do some of these manual failsafes in the past, I cooked the AUX1 relay. You may remember that (or may not because you are so busy). In any case, back then, I tapped into my 48V battery bank to get 12V to manually send to the 3 phase SSR control input. I thought I could just tap into one of my 12V strings on the 48V battery bank and get the 12V that way. This is where I think I went wrong. I think that's why the AUX1 relay was inadvertently fried. I don't fully understand it, but I think what happened was that there was a voltage potential difference across the ground of the Classic and the ground of the 12V string that I tried to use on my 48V battery bank. That is what must have sent the high current through the relay and cooked it. Not sure, but it's just a theory. In any case, I ended up buying a small 48V to 12V voltage converter, and I used that to get my 12V for manually actuating the 3 phase SSR, and all is working well now.
Hi Edward, great job... and a lot of trial and error.
If it's possible that when you get some spare time, you could post a schematic for those of us lesser mortals that are a bit lost by the complexity ( apparent ) of your now fully (hopefully) functioning system?
thanks
Eric
Hi Eric,
I might try to do that some time. This time of year I'm much more distracted and busy, so much of my spare time is spent outside working around our small farm.
Edward
While I've been waiting for my Classic 150 to be repaired, I decided to make some small changes to my wind turbine control system. I will be setting up my water heater diversion so that it will draw around 100A. Up until now, I have had a single Crydom D1D100 solid state relay for my AUX2 controlled diversion. I've been running 70A to my water heater. Now that I'll be bumping the diversion up to 100A (which is the rated limit of the Crydom D1D100), I wanted to make sure that I have a better factor of safety. So, I drilled & tapped my heat sink and installed a second D1D100 and wired it in parallel to the first. This way, both SSR's should share the 100A load evenly. This will put each SSR at around 50A, which will put the loads very safely within the limits of these SSR's. Plus I'll have more surface area to dissipate the heat into the large heat sink. I'm just trying to increse the factor of safety and to make my system more reliable.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Dual-SSR.jpg)
Speaking of repairs...
Ryan, does your RMA system show any updates on my Classic 150 repair? I know that my Classic 150 arrived at the Post Office in Arlington on Tuesday. Rick went and picked it up on Wednesday, but I don't know what has happened since then. Thanks.
Edward
Edward it is all fixed and waiting for boB to tweak the code to prevent this from happening again. I will talk to boB and if he needs more than the weekend maybe we will get it headed your way and you can upload code when you get it.
Sounds great, Ryan. If we can maintain my current Classic memory, then that would be great. I talked with Mario earlier in the week, and he said that this would be possible if my Classic software was updated via USB. He was going to do it that way to preserve what I have saved in memory.
Thanks,
Edward
Having some great winds today, and my Classic 150 is working like a champ. Last night it was breezy, but nothing particularly good. Some time after midnight, the winds picked up nicely. This morning when I woke up, the wind was averaging in the low 20's, but gusting into the mid 30's. When I went down to check my Classic, I saw power peak at 4000+W for a moment in the short time I was watching. The turbo fan was running on my Classic, so I know the winds were blowing strong. I've only ever heard the turbo fan run one other time. My 80 gallon water heater was already at around 120F this morning. Classic showed 12.6 kwh produced over the past several hours. Supposed to be windy the rest of the day and into tonight. Lots of great wind power.
I love the fact that I can go to bed and sleep well not worrying about my wind turbine now that I switched over the the Classic. In the past, with the old controller, I used to wake up at night when the wind was roaring concerned about the wind turbine. Not any more. I know that my turbine is in good hands! ;D
Edward
Edward,
Congrats' Glad to here it is working well.
What do you use for elements in your tank? Am I recalling correctly that they are DC elements running off your batteries, or are they thru an inverter? We have the former, but my plan is to increase the capacity of this dump load.
Our Teledyne's show'd up last night. Thanks again to you and Bob for the sound check.
~kitestrings
kitestrings,
Yes, I am using DC heating elements in my 80 gallon hot water heater. These 24/48V elements are the ones that I am using.
http://www.altestore.com/store/Charge-Controllers/Dump-Loads-Dump-Load-Controllers/Diversion-LoadsDump-Loads/Water-Heating-Element-for-24V-or-48V-DC/p2327/ (http://www.altestore.com/store/Charge-Controllers/Dump-Loads-Dump-Load-Controllers/Diversion-LoadsDump-Loads/Water-Heating-Element-for-24V-or-48V-DC/p2327/)
I have 2 of these set up to give me a total of 100A diversion load. Each of these screw in elements has 2 heating elements. Essentially, there are 4 heating elements all together. I have the lower elements wired in parallel to give 75A and the top elements are wired in series to give me 25A. They do not recommend wiring the elements as I have on the one giving me 75A diversion. I am an experimenter and since I could not easily add a 3rd element set to this tank, I decided to just try some different wiring arrangements to increase my diversion load.
I'm not going to recommend this for anyone else, since the manufacturer says not to wire them to divert so much power, but the fact is that it is working... has been working... and I see no reason why it can not continue to work well for me. Time will tell. I figure that as long as that 75A diverting element set doesn't overheat, then it should be OK. I have the lower element wired up for the higher 75A load. It sits in the cooler water towards the bottom of the tank. The upper element that is in the hotter zone is the lower 25A diversion. Right now, my upper tank area reads 130F and the lower tank areas reads 100F with an IR temp gun. I've got 4AWG wire running to then elements and I made sure that I have a very good connections at the elements. Working great.
Edward
PS. I have a thermostat set to 150F on this water heater and I've also got the Honeywell anti-scald mixing valve on the water heater outlet (thanks to you for the suggestion).
Edward,
Clever. We're using the same elements (in a much smaller tank). I wondered how you got to this high a loading. Now I see what you're doing. Makes sense and if it hasn't burned out, I don't see where there is much risk otherwise.
Happy winds,
~kitestrings
I agree, kitestrings. I don't think there is much risk as long as the wire size is sufficient to handle the current and the connections to the elements themselves are done properly. 75A is a lot of current going to those small threaded rods, but I used some 4 AWG lugs with #10 holes and I had to be very careful how I connected them in order to not have the + and - lugs touching. My suspicion is that they would not recommend such high power diversion because it would be hard to make a good, low resistance connection with those tiny threaded studs on the elements. I tried to be very careful and it's working just fine.
Here's my 80 gallon heater with my new Honeywell mixing valve. I also run with powered anodes in each of my water heaters, because our well water contains bacteria that reacts with a typical magnesium/aluminum anode rod and creates hydrogen sulfide gas (rotten egg smell). After I removed the standard anode rods and installed the powered anodes, the rotten egg smell went away.
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Water-Heater.jpg)
Edward
Quote from: keyturbocars on June 23, 2011, 06:03:30 PM
I also run with powered anodes in each of my water heaters, because our well water contains bacteria that reacts with a typical magnesium/aluminum anode rod and creates hydrogen sulfide gas (rotten egg smell). After I removed the standard anode rods and installed the powered anodes, the rotten egg smell went away.
Edward
Edward please tell me more about those powered anodes...
We too have fero-bacters in our water. Phew!!! But we inadvertently got rid of the smell by installing an Iron filter system that has an air injector to cause the iron to precipitate out in the filter medium before going to the softener.. We also have to 'shock' our well with bleach once a year or so to knock down the goodies..
Eric
Hi Eric,
Here's the place where I bought the powered anodes from... they have some good info on smelly water here...
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Troubleshooting/stinky-water-in-hot-water-heaters.html (http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Troubleshooting/stinky-water-in-hot-water-heaters.html)
These are the powered anodes that I use:
http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Power-Anode.html (http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/OrderPages/XCart/Power-Anode.html)
Edward
Edward, good link :)... thanks
Eric
You're welcome, Eric. Hope the information helps you too. No fun taking a hot shower and feeling sick from the rotten egg (hydrogen sulfide) smell! It reminded me of visiting Yellowstone and smelling the hydrogen sulfide coming from some of the hot springs and geysers. :)
Edward
Winds are starting to calm down now to the teens, and energy production is tapering off. This is probably the best day that I've had for wind power. A little over 30KWh produced in the past 22 hours or so.
Here's a snap shot from earlier in the day during a wind gust (kwh shown on Classic in picture was after it reset to zero earlier this morning):
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Classic-3500W.jpg)
I saw over 4000W during one gusty time this morning, but naturally I didn't have the camera handy.
One other piece of Classic trivia... at one time when the winds were blowing strong and my Classic's turbo fan was running for a while, I went in and checked the internal temps. My Classic reported the FET temp as 45.2C and the PCB temp as 49.2C.
Edward
Hello,
I've been busy lately, but I wanted to report that my Classic 150 controlled wind turbine system continues to work great. It's been relatively calm the past 2 weeks, but today we've got some good wind blowing through. They are predicting gusts up to 30mph today and supposed to stay windy tonight.
My Classic 150 works so well that I don't have to pay much attention to it these days. The wind blows, the wind turbine spins, and the Classic just does it's job without complaining.
That's the way it should be!
Edward
I have had the same experience. After getting all the programming figured out, I'm not afraid to let my turbine fly now. I have seen and confirmed that the clipper works and the Classic seems to hold the turbine back from running away in any winds I have seen so far. I'm going to shut the turbine down and turn off the Classic while we're on vacation because the solar will keep up fine, and it's one less thing to worry about.
Volvofarmer,
That's good to hear that you are having an equally positive experience with your Classic controlled wind turbine.
I think it's smart to shut things down while you are out of town. I would do the same if I was going to be gone for more than a day or so. Funny thing is that usually when we leave town is when the crazy weather events happen here. One year, we went to visit my wife's family for a week or so. A neighbor e-mailed and said there was a big wind storm and some of our roofing was torn off. Another time, we were visiting my family for a few days and a neighbor called to say that there was a flash flood that came off the mountains (foothills) and washed out my driveway. Looked like a bulldozer came down the foothills and dumped a bunch of debris on our property (as well as washed away many dumptruck loads of gravel off our driveway). So, I figure it's safest to shut down the turbine when we leave town for a while! I don't want to find out that we had 100+mph winds again like we had one year that snapped off numerous power poles like they were toothpicks. Not talking about trees falling on powerlines and knocking over power poles. These utility poles were snapped clean off. I don't suspect my wind turbine tower would fare too well in winds like that.
Edward
Hi Guys, It's me, Edward. I'm still alive! I've just been very busy the past few months, and the wind has been fairly unbusy around here, so I haven't had much to post. However, last night as I was working into the wee hours of the morning (went to bed at 4 AM - too much work, not enough time), we had a wind storm roll through. It was unexpected. It's been so calm around here the past couple months, that I've sort of forgotten what wind was! :) Well, last night I was definitely reminded about the wind. My weather station recorded peak winds of 46 mph.
While I was working on the computer, the wind began to pick up all of a sudden, and I kept checking my Classic 150. I could tell that the gusts were strong by the sounds coming from outside, but I didn't realize it was that strong. Well, imagine my surprise when I saw OVER 5,000 WATTS flash on the screen of my Classic 150! No joke! It happened so fast, that I didn't catch the exact number, but it was definitely OVER 5,000 W. What's amazing about this is that my HY-2000 wind turbine is rated as a 2,000 watt turbine! I decided that I should grab my camera to try to document this. As you can imagine, it's hard to snap a picture of the constantly changing LCD readout while the wind is gusting and frequently changing. I never caught 5,000+ again, but I did see a lot of numbers in the 4,000 - 5,000 W range.
Here's one snapshot at 4299W...
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Classic-4299W.jpg)
Here's one at 4672W...
(http://www.key-ideas.com/Classic-4672W.jpg)
It's hard to see because the LCD was changing so fast, but that's 4672W, 115.6V, 84.8A as best as I can see. SHAZAM! 85A at 55V!
As much as I like power, I decided to adjust my homemade AUX1 controlled Clipper to a lower voltage range of 114V - 116V. Previously, I had it set to 118V - 120V, which let the turbine crank out over 5,000 W. I wanted to try to apply the Clipper brakes sooner to keep peak power under control. When the power was peaking around 5,000 W, the little yellow light was blinking at the left of the display on my Classic 150. I'm assuming this means that I was reaching the amp limit of my Classic. In any case, I set the braking limit of my Clipper to a lower voltage to try to limit peak power output. Everything worked great and the Classic 150 continues to work great to keep things under control. The Classic is an impressive controller! The HY-2000 is an impressive turbine too!
Based on the voltages that I am seeing, I think that the Classic 150 is a perfect match for the HY-2000 wind turbine. During those peak 5kW surges, I could hear the wind turbine blades twisting and doing their automatic braking to limit turbine RPM. They get very loud as the blades "furl" by twisting and stalling in the wind. So, in reality, I don't think that this turbine would put out much more than around 5kW because the blades would begin limiting RPM. I don't like it when the blades do this to limit the RPM, because it is so loud, and I suspect that it's also hard on the bearings. I'd rather use my Clipper to limit RPM and prevent the RPM's from getting high enough to hit the aerodynamic braking of the blades. At least this aerodynamic blade braking is a good safety backup feature to keep RPM's under control.
Now I'll crawl back in my hole and get back to work! :P
Edward
Fantastic, Edward !! The Classic probably current limited when you saw it jump
to 5000+ watts... Maybe...
Hope you had a great Christmas and have a merry new year to boot !
Glad you stopped by. I was beginning to worry about you !!!
boB
Hi boB,
Had a nice Christmas visting my wife's family for a while, but the trip got cut short when Montezuma's Revenge (stomach flu) starting running it's course. We headed home as soon as possilble, because I didn't want to wait until all the kids came down with it. I didn't think it would be wise driving for 7 hours with a van full of sick kids puking all over the place! I also didn't want to destroy my mother-in-law's house with a pukefest from my family of 9 and only one bathroom! :o Thankfully, it never got really bad. Now that we are home, if it does get bad, then at least we'll only destory our own house. :)
Hope you and your family had a nice Christmas too.
Happy New Year!
Edward
that's amazing to see that much power going through 1 controller. you did good boB.
Well we have had a good wind event and I have been working hard at tuning 2 Classics on one turbine. This is the neighbors 16ft Other power machine. From my calculations it is safe to 8kw. I feel Edwards pain trying to get good pictures. We did see 6,500 to 7,000 watts a couple times. Here is a shot of it doing about 5200 watts or 100 amps into the 48 volt battery.
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Neil, you are right. boB did a great job on this controller!
The dual Classics working in tandem is cool, Ryan.
It is hard to get a good picture. Flash ON and it washes out the LCD display. Flash OFF and then there's not enough light so the picture is fuzzy. On my Canon digital camera, I found that it works best to set it in Macro mode for better close up focus, and then put the flash ON and try to angle the camera so that the flash doesn't reflect directly back off the LCD screen face. Even if all that is right, then the constantly changing numbers on the LCD in wind mode makes it hard to catch it at just the right time. It would probably be easier to get a good picture of the display when using for a solar application, because the power would not be fluctuating so quickly. Then again, it's a lot more exciting to watch the power fluctuations with a wind turbine! :D
Edward
I have a 8kVA 100 volt transformer center tapped, couple of 120amp stud diodes, 50,000 micofrarad cap..driven by my 6kVA Genset into my classic 150..Im curious what numbers will I get if I feed into my classic 150 :)
Frank
VK3ZFS
Quote from: phonetic on December 29, 2011, 10:54:54 PM
I have a 8kVA 100 volt transformer center tapped, couple of 120amp stud diodes, 50,000 micofrarad cap..driven by my 6kVA Genset into my classic 150..Im curious what numbers will I get if I feed into my classic 150 :)
Frank
VK3ZFS
Depends on your battery voltage. Higher the battery, higher the power available for a given output current of course because it will limit.
I you are going to do this, may I suggest adding another diode between your 50,000 uF cap and the Classic input. The Classic has input caps too, around 4000 uF but if, when it wakes up and matches your input voltage, the ripple current can send some current back into your big capacitors.
What I think the world needs is a decent battery charger with AC input... Maybe with PFC too.
boB
Quote from: boB on December 30, 2011, 12:30:48 AM
Quote from: phonetic on December 29, 2011, 10:54:54 PM
I have a 8kVA 100 volt transformer center tapped, couple of 120amp stud diodes, 50,000 micofrarad cap..driven by my 6kVA Genset into my classic 150..Im curious what numbers will I get if I feed into my classic 150 :)
Frank
VK3ZFS
Depends on your battery voltage. Higher the battery, higher the power available for a given output current of course because it will limit.
I you are going to do this, may I suggest adding another diode between your 50,000 uF cap and the Classic input. The Classic has input caps too, around 4000 uF but if, when it wakes up and matches your input voltage, the ripple current can send some current back into your big capacitors.
What I think the world needs is a decent battery charger with AC input... Maybe with PFC too.
boB
Yes a simple stack-able 2-3kw battery charger with PFC would be way cool. I have been charging with my Outbacks lately and they just do not charge as good as the old magnum.
>"What I think the world needs is a decent battery charger with AC input... Maybe with PFC too"
Yes, boB, HC. But it MUST be PFC, and a minimum of 50 A @48 V nominal. Stackable would be great, too.
Couple of years agom, called Magnum, and suggested that they make such a product, hav'nt seen it yet ...
Have been running a DC Power Supply: Variac, XFMR, FWB, Capacitor bank + Ammeter into an MX-60 and it works great, but of course it is NOT PFC.
Perhaps time for MN to add this to their list of projects (?),
HNY to all, Vic
vic,
you do realize that such a large charger would not be able to plug into most standard 15 or 20a 120vac outlets. this would be either a dedicated 30a circuit on 120vac or used on a dedicated 15a 240vac outlet. this may even be a good candidate for a hardwired installation. demand for such a charger may not be very high due to the special ac requirements that would be imposed. many out there like chargers to be plugnplay so as to avoid special electrical circuits and the electricians and inspections that this would impose on many people.
Quote from: niel on January 03, 2012, 12:30:20 AM
vic,
you do realize that such a large charger would not be able to plug into most standard 15 or 20a 120vac outlets. this would be either a dedicated 30a circuit on 120vac or used on a dedicated 15a 240vac outlet. this may even be a good candidate for a hardwired installation. demand for such a charger may not be very high due to the special ac requirements that would be imposed. many out there like chargers to be plugnplay so as to avoid special electrical circuits and the electricians and inspections that this would impose on many people.
Good points, Niel. It would have to be pluggable into a 15 Amp circuit I would think and even then, should have adjustable current limit to keep from tripping breakers with too much load already.
boB
Hello
Take this input for what you paid for it, remembering that I only know enough to be dangerous!
I have 2-vfx3648's and a 1350Ah bank and need more charge capacity. Ryan, I think, mentioned disappointing charging in another post from this brand of inverter versus Magnum.
What I envision in my rosy perfect world is something that mounts to my 4 inverter mounting plate and is wired in as you would additional inverters and talks and plays nicely with the current system (mate) but only for additional charge capacity without inverting.
Wade
Yup. Every time we charge with the generator through an Outback, I can see the CFLs flickering and can hear a difference in the fridge compressor. I would love to have something stand alone, that costs less than a whole inverter/charger, and doesn't put wonky waveforms into my house wiring.
Adjustable current limiting would be really nifty as you could dial it in to work with a small Honda 1000 or 2000 W generator for ocassional fuel-efficient help with bulk, or hook it to a larger 5000-10KW beast and crank it up for equalizing.
niel,
Yes those are good points. However, just speaking for myself, The micro chargers like the Iotas, are useless for 48 volt systems .. too many giblets required at 15 amps each or whatever it is.
Would like PFC 50 Amp charger. Being off-grid, this would always need to be used with a genset. An EU3000is would be the smallest candidate in my case. A bit underpowered for 50 A at 57 volts, but OK with me.
AND in the case of Magnum, was thinking more about making it easy, as they already have a high current charger design as a part of their inverter ... altho, an AC line-operated PFC switcher would be better (run into a Classic) , and probably the common chargers in inverters use the 50/60 Hz XFMR, which is expensive and heavy.
The pair of SW+ 5548 will charge at 150 Amps, but I do not like the way they treat the AC power source in regulating the Asorb voltage. Apparently, these chargers force some current back onto the AC input as a regulation strategy, which can drag AC in out of regulation, causing the inverter to drop the AC input, as "unqualified".
Was stating my need, and was thinking that I was not alone in this need. The largest genset here can supply 95 A AC at 240 V-- 25 KVA, and IS directly wired.
Even a PFC DC Switching PS, run into a Classic would be fine for me, as we do NOT use AGS, here. OK done, Vic
vic,
i have no doubt you have a need for it. it isn't me you need to convince of the viability of such a charger as my point was one of a specialty charger or a plugnplay charger. the plugnplay has more marketability and is probably why you haven't seen this charger you seek on the market. i am not saying it should not be made to fit a specialized number of people's needs. the guys at midnite probably would not mind delving into an specialized aspect of the industry if they get the opportunity, but it is they who would need to determine just how sale-able this would be to warrant the investment in its production. if that is not a high sale item it would command a much higher price to offset these initial costs. it was never my intention to discourage the production of such a charger and i'm sure boB appreciates the feedback as it is that feedback that helped to create many of their products. even i am guilty of giving this feedback and not all suggestions will be followed on, but maybe in time they will be as they are still a young company who actually do listen as you and i know. :) ;D 8) 8) 8)
Yea, niel,
Am an old retired product development EE, so know about the trade-offs of what does and does not get developed/marketed.
But, to me, the little chargers do exist, ala Iota, altho, believe that the Iotas are not PFC. They are so small as to be strikingly useless, especially for 48 V systems.
My home brew variac/transformer/fwb charger is far better than the Iotas, and cost $100 to build. Not PFC, but ...
Have a large single phase PFC switcher that runs at 3 KW, but does not quite have enuf output voltage.
May just look for some PFC switcher that can do at least 57 volts, but that is a stretch. Might just stack two of those 3 KW jobs ...
Dunno, but the topic just came up, and gave my $0.000002.
Thanks, 73 Vic
I all been a long time since I posted hope I get this right doing good but cough Bells Phalsie virouse infrection witch drops you face nearves but on the road to recovery. Now on to better things have some pictures of two classic 150s hooked up to 4 turbine inputs also hooked up to router but Im away for the site at the farm so Ill have to wait to get the upgraded firmware and have midnite e mail the firmware to me so can upgrade to talk to there server for myclassic.com. also maybe master slave upgarde by then but did get it to call home in october 5-20? 2011 but cant get it to talk yet as they are still working on the . server.
All in all its a great set up as had no problems with it except the first install you must always isolate the input to each mppt contoller installer error not midnites. Bob great controller hope I get to work soon so I can Bye a clipper JR if it is in the works? P.S. will try to get to site were I can upload better pictures more details to come and wire clean up proto types always spegetiey wiring till in panduit and bigger box all in the box is recycled ! less than 1/6th new except some control wiring!
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