Need help - batteries not reaching full charge - adding more

[ClassicCrazy]

I'll get a bunch of photos today.  I'll put them in a Flickr account. 

When testing D.C. Amps at the panels, I am getting the same per string as the combined CC reading (2.5/string to 5/CC).

I'm still onlycharging one single string of batteries until this mess of unknowns is cleared up.  I'd hate to make it any more complicated.

I'll be running the local app all day today (however, as it has done in the past, it often closes the connection).

Yes my Local Status app also says it looses connnections but others have said that it keeps on logging data in 2 second intervals that you can export.

To test the panels by short circuiting them you would disconnect the positive and negative of the PV  panels and then connect them together and put your clamp meter on and see what current reading you get. Just to be clear that means PV panel , positive wire from that , negative wire from PV  not connected to anything else until you short those two leads together and take your reading.

I am not sure if Vic meant  you can also short circuit test the two in series - with the higher voltage you would get some arcing when touching the leads together so  you would have to make sure you only short circuit test once panel at a time. There may be a way to do the series using a breaker to contain the arc but I haven't ever tried that.

Larry

[Resthome]

I'll get a bunch of photos today.  I'll put them in a Flickr account. 

When testing D.C. Amps at the panels, I am getting the same per string as the combined CC reading (2.5/string to 5/CC).

I'm still onlycharging one single string of batteries until this mess of unknowns is cleared up.  I'd hate to make it any more complicated.

I'll be running the local app all day today (however, as it has done in the past, it often closes the connection).

Yeah that disconnect has been a problem with LA & Classic since the beginning hence MN is now trying to go the way of a com box. Only time will tell. Don't think I have ever seen Graham's App disconnect. But I don't know if he is streaming all the data from the Classic at 2 sec resolution to his live graph.

As long as it reconnect by itself it will continue to log data in the background. IIRC I think the icon turns green again when it connects.

[Westbranch]

I remember only 1 disconnect that did NOT reconnect in the last yr...
Use Graham's APP for monitoring, like right now and
the MN L.App for setting/checking values...

Will load new version later tonight...

[ClassicCrazy]

I remember only 1 disconnect that did NOT reconnect in the last yr...
Use Graham's APP for monitoring, like right now and
the MN L.App for setting/checking values...

Will load new version later tonight...

I don't think you should load that test version of Grahams - it was only to see if that temp comp worked. Seemed like the rest of the app wasn't working quite right so I went back to the playstore version.
Larry

[robbertwilliams]

Well, the LA disconnected several times today with only a couple of automatic reconnects (when it had the disconnect window, in the background I could see it in green and the "view" button - however, most of the time that wasn't the case).  I was able to export today's numbers and view them in excel.  I'm having trouble with the time stamp?  How do I format that column so I don't have some weird logarithm? 

Here's a link to my flickr pictures taken today.  https://flic.kr/s/aHskST1iCQ

I did not do a short circuit test today.  It was kind of a gloomy day and overcast.  I was able to make it through absorb (4hrs) with the inverter on - lights, radio, etc.  So, I've had a couple of days to watch either bank when it's hooked up and charging.  The WBjr Amps seems to pretty much level off at 1.5 (this is the number given on the MNGP WB screen along with remaining Ah and SOC).  So, if that's the case, that number should work for ending amps if my battery bank is 370ah.  When I connect the separate banks for a 740ah, do I double that ending amp number?  (This is what I'm remembering to do - ending amps = "approx .10*BBAh")

Nothing too weird today.

[dRdoS7]

Hi,

I was able to export today's numbers and view them in excel.  I'm having trouble with the time stamp?  How do I format that column so I don't have some weird logarithm?

Look here:
http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?topic=3584.msg34394#msg34394

Read that one post, then follow the link, and read the posts there.

dRdoS7

[Westbranch]

Larry , as far as I can seee you hit the nail.... it showed a temp comp lower than the Absorb V setting.see my comment on  Android post.....

[Resthome]

Well, the LA disconnected several times today with only a couple of automatic reconnects (when it had the disconnect window, in the background I could see it in green and the "view" button - however, most of the time that wasn't the case).  I was able to export today's numbers and view them in excel.  I'm having trouble with the time stamp?  How do I format that column so I don't have some weird logarithm? 

Here's a link to my flickr pictures taken today.  https://flic.kr/s/aHskST1iCQ

I did not do a short circuit test today.  It was kind of a gloomy day and overcast.  I was able to make it through absorb (4hrs) with the inverter on - lights, radio, etc.  So, I've had a couple of days to watch either bank when it's hooked up and charging.  The WBjr Amps seems to pretty much level off at 1.5 (this is the number given on the MNGP WB screen along with remaining Ah and SOC).  So, if that's the case, that number should work for ending amps if my battery bank is 370ah.  When I connect the separate banks for a 740ah, do I double that ending amp number?  (This is what I'm remembering to do - ending amps = "approx .10*BBAh")

Nothing too weird today.

Robbert

Thanks for the pictures, haven't reviewed them all yet. But I want to mention that your MNGP firmware is not in sync with you Classic firmware with the picture you show CLASSIC 2096 which you had mentioned before. But it also shows the MNGP at 1933 the MNGP should be at 2054 IIRC. Of course my Classic is to far away to look at but that is what I have in my notes.

Classic 2096 3/26/16, Network 2097, MNGP 2054  8/11/15

Sometime there is not an update for the MNGP but if you missed a prior one you need to keep them in sync as that they are all at the latest versions. Things tent to work better that way.

On the LA time data - see my post here http://kb1uas.com/mnsforum/index.php?topic=3137.msg29173#msg29173

Are the MNGP photos take from yesterday when you had the no charging in Bulk?  Don't know what to say about that other the last VOC was 57.2 and V In was down to 39.4 V .  My VOC is around 44 V and I typically see 33-35 V In during Bulk but I'm running 12 V batteries. Let see what Vic thinks about that.

What do you have going on Aux 1 ??

[ClassicCrazy]

Well, the LA disconnected several times today with only a couple of automatic reconnects (when it had the disconnect window, in the background I could see it in green and the "view" button - however, most of the time that wasn't the case).  I was able to export today's numbers and view them in excel.  I'm having trouble with the time stamp?  How do I format that column so I don't have some weird logarithm? 

Here's a link to my flickr pictures taken today.  https://flic.kr/s/aHskST1iCQ

I did not do a short circuit test today.  It was kind of a gloomy day and overcast.  I was able to make it through absorb (4hrs) with the inverter on - lights, radio, etc.  So, I've had a couple of days to watch either bank when it's hooked up and charging.  The WBjr Amps seems to pretty much level off at 1.5 (this is the number given on the MNGP WB screen along with remaining Ah and SOC).  So, if that's the case, that number should work for ending amps if my battery bank is 370ah.  When I connect the separate banks for a 740ah, do I double that ending amp number?  (This is what I'm remembering to do - ending amps = "approx .10*BBAh")

Nothing too weird today.

I am looking at the photo of your MNDC box - and not quite following your wiring from the Classic to the small breakers at the bottom right of box. I see what looks like battery positive going from Classic through breaker to the bottom post of the inverter breaker . That sounds good. But what are the two breakers next to it ? It almost looks like a jumper at the top of two of them that tie the two together ? And what is the smaller white wire that looks like it goes from the negative load side of the shunt to one of those breakers ? Maybe it just goes behind them ?  So I can't follow the route of the PV positive through a breaker to the Classic . What does the black wire on the grounding buss go to ?

Just looked again - and maybe the PV positive comes in to bottom of middle breaker , then you have that jumped at top to the other breaker and the PV pos to the Classic goes out from bottom of third breaker ?   What are the ratings of those breakers ? Not sure why you would be using two breakers there ?

Larry

[Vic]

Hi robbertwilliams,

Thanks for the pics.

Have never seen  a Classic in Bulk,  making no current output,  except for  a second,  perhaps ...

The RED background  in the LA indicates that there is an Error.  In the main Status screen there is an Alerts button,   which may tell you what is the error.

Also on the center gauge,  there is a small rectangle below and to the right of the "MidNite Solar" script,   believe that if you clicked on that,  the error may also be defined.

More later,   Thanks,   Vic

[Resthome]

Okay looked at the pictures a little more. Here are my comments for what they are worth.

• The color on the LA may have been changed as the Classic Name is shown in RED and the default is Green. I also believe the whole window changes color on Alerts. At least the Main display does. So maybe no Alert.
• The photo of the Array on the pole mount seems to have a shadow across the bottom two panels. May be the way the photo was taken.
• The MNGP photo with the VOC at 57.2 V  and V In at 39.4 V seem to be a problem. Don't know how the sweep got down that low unless LOWMAX was still Enabled. And it apparently stuck there. With 0 watts I would have though it would have gone to resting. The next day the LA is showing V IN at 65-69 V at 9:40am. Probably also effected by the temp of the panels, don't know what the VOC at that time was as I think it is on the status-info screen of the LA. I would have gone back to the menu on the MNGP and PRESSED ENTER to see if it would force another Sweep and get a correct reading.Either way this seems to be a problem with the Classic Sweep. If it ever repeats I would report it to MidNite or pm Ryan or boB fo comment.
• On the LA Graphs at 9:40 AM it is putting very little amps into the batteries. So don't know what state the controller was in. If Bulk the curve seems to be flat. An hour earlier at 8:40 AM it was showing maybe a 4 Amp rise. Can't see the Battery voltage maybe 26V. I though the Absorb set point was higher than that. Maybe the batteries where not drawn down the prior night and at Float. Don't know if these batteries are just fully charged or if the Classic just isn't charging much at the time of the photo.  Could tell a lot more with the LA Export but those files are too large to post here. Would have to use something like ONE DRIVE, DROPBOX, or GOOGLE DRIVE to post the file. Wish we could post larger files. But that takes more server storage.

On a final note it would be good to see photos of the MNGP and LA on the same day while in Bulk or just after going to Absorb that would be the peak Amps going into the batteries.

[tecnodave]

Hi, Robbertwilliams,

You have received very good advice here from the user group but I will add my two cents here. When I built my system I undersized it or did not estimate how much I would grow the system and I ended up with two not exactly matched battery banks, my Interstate L-16's were 2 years old and well maintained when I suddenly scored the Rolls-Surettes S-530 L-16's for $20.00 , 3 years old and abused badly. I now have them working well in parallel when I have sustained large loads. My whole secret to success in doing this is I do not parallel the bank's unless absolutely necessary. I run on one  system only unless my sustained loads are over 1500-2000 watts or so. I have a large paralleling switch to connect the two systems togather for large loads. In normal operation each classic is charging its own bank. EQ'ing is always done separately. This allows the banks to charge at their own rate and has resulted in a system with incredible capacity as I am only a few miles from that big pond, the Pacific Ocean, and am at the brunt end of days of foul weather. I am easily able to weather 10-15 days of no direct sun and still have reserve for medically nessecary electrical devices that will "always have electricity no matter what"

Secrets of success:  careful charting of temperature/specific gravity of each cell of banks, I use a temperature compensated hydrometer as a reference....U.S. Navy WWII Precision hydrometer....as well as a Frias hydrometer,  Always test in same situation....same temperature range, etc to normalize readings, and on finding discrepancies, applying corrective action to restore batteries to normal s.o.c as determined by resting (reading s.g. two hours after full charge to float).

Hope that you will find this helpful.

David

[robbertwilliams]

Okay looked at the pictures a little more. Here are my comments for what they are worth.

• The color on the LA may have been changed as the Classic Name is shown in RED and the default is Green. I also believe the whole window changes color on Alerts. At least the Main display does. So maybe no Alert.
• The photo of the Array on the pole mount seems to have a shadow across the bottom two panels. May be the way the photo was taken.
• The MNGP photo with the VOC at 57.2 V  and V In at 39.4 V seem to be a problem. Don't know how the sweep got down that low unless LOWMAX was still Enabled. And it apparently stuck there. With 0 watts I would have though it would have gone to resting. The next day the LA is showing V IN at 65-69 V at 9:40am. Probably also effected by the temp of the panels, don't know what the VOC at that time was as I think it is on the status-info screen of the LA. I would have gone back to the menu on the MNGP and PRESSED ENTER to see if it would force another Sweep and get a correct reading.Either way this seems to be a problem with the Classic Sweep. If it ever repeats I would report it to MidNite or pm Ryan or boB fo comment.
• On the LA Graphs at 9:40 AM it is putting very little amps into the batteries. So don't know what state the controller was in. If Bulk the curve seems to be flat. An hour earlier at 8:40 AM it was showing maybe a 4 Amp rise. Can't see the Battery voltage maybe 26V. I though the Absorb set point was higher than that. Maybe the batteries where not drawn down the prior night and at Float. Don't know if these batteries are just fully charged or if the Classic just isn't charging much at the time of the photo.  Could tell a lot more with the LA Export but those files are too large to post here. Would have to use something like ONE DRIVE, DROPBOX, or GOOGLE DRIVE to post the file. Wish we could post larger files. But that takes more server storage.

On a final note it would be good to see photos of the MNGP and LA on the same day while in Bulk or just after going to Absorb that would be the peak Amps going into the batteries.

Hi robbertwilliams,

Thanks for the pics.

Have never seen  a Classic in Bulk,  making no current output,  except for  a second,  perhaps ...

The RED background  in the LA indicates that there is an Error.  In the main Status screen there is an Alerts button,   which may tell you what is the error.

Also on the center gauge,  there is a small rectangle below and to the right of the "MidNite Solar" script,   believe that if you clicked on that,  the error may also be defined.

More later,   Thanks,   Vic

To Vic and John -

The colors have been changed, so, no alert that I'm aware of.

The photo of the array was taken early in the morning, around 8:00ish am.  Just given to show tilt.  So, shadows?  Probably.

Don't have any clue as to the 0w at bulk, but yes, good observation, I turned LMAX back on (not sure what my reasoning for that was, especially considering I have no clue what it does).  And if it happens again, just like I've been asked again and again...I'll take pictures of all the status screens, and maybe some more.

John, spot on...9:40am, very little amps going to the batteries.  Well, I'm probably going about trying to dial in a "charge" controller when the batteries I have are already charged.  So, I'm assuming these tweaks would be better suited if I could somehow draw down the battery bank a bit more than 2-3%.  And the possible 26v, that was due to yesterday's on and off shade (it would go from bulk to absorb, then shade, and back to bulk).

To Larry - the MNDC250 Box is wiring as per the diagram given by MN.  http://www.savanasolar.com/media/wysiwyg/69_2.jpg

The breakers are oversized, not sure off hand but may be 30 or 60's (I had ordered them, couldn't return and Civic and Alte solar suggested that since I had the two 20amp breakers at the panels, I could use them inside as just shutoff breakers).  Don't quote me on what I'm remembering...I may have gotten a little anal and ordered different ones.  And the black wire on the grounding bus is a poorly labeled ground coming from the PV's (when I purchased the wire, only black was available from the LES).  Oh, and the jumper wire, the diagram will clear that up.  I have the internal CC GF disabled because I'm running an "old school" breaker type on the panel.

No one has said anything about my ending amps?  And what do I do if I set my ending amps at what the WBJr shows as the taper off point (when I'm using the local app which is being powered by my router/inverter)...then if I turn the inverter off, like when I'm not there, won't the value be different? 

And David, thank you.  Ever since Vic, and others, have mentioned my panels being not quite up to the job of charging two banks, I've been thinking of installing some sort of Isolation Switch between the two.  I wish I had the forethought to plan out a way to have the inverter charge one set off the generator and the other set off the panels...but that's not the case.  So, I was thinking possibly a isolation switch between the banks (keep one as basically a backup, but alternate use between banks when the weather and charging conditions permit just to keep them aging together).  You mentioned that you have two charge controllers, I don't think I need to go that route as my situation is a bit different but some of your ideas can be relevant.  Let me know if you have anything to say, or anyone else, about the isolation switch.  I'm not even sure they have them rated for a bank this large.  I just know I've seen such a device when dealing with our VW Bus Campervan, coach/starting battery and an isolation switch in between (in the event one or the other dies you'd just flip the switch).

[ClassicCrazy]

"No one has said anything about my ending amps?  And what do I do if I set my ending amps at what the WBJr shows as the taper off point (when I'm using the local app which is being powered by my router/inverter)...then if I turn the inverter off, like when I'm not there, won't the value be different? "

I am not sure what your question is. The ending amps will only apply when the Classic is charging and in absorb. It is monitoring the system amps ( assuming you have the Shunt setting to WBjr instead of internal ) .  So it doesn't matter what the loads are . When you aren't there if the batteries are full then it will see the ending amps sooner and go to Float.

Could you confirm the question earier  about if your MNGP and firmware updates are all at the same values ? Perhaps do them all over again with newest firmware , do a VMM , restore your setpoints with Local Status App ( save  copy first ) . 

This is the screen shot I would like to see when you are charging


Larry

[Westbranch]

Like this?  https://www.solar-electric.com/basw1300amp.html