Need some assistance, guidance. I've been using lead acid for many years with my Midnite Classic Lite, with MNGP, Whizbang Jr. I have 1540watts of panel.
My lead acid batts were done, end of life. So I've switched to LiFePO4. The battery I purchased is a REDODO 24V 200ah, with a 200a bms.
https://www.redodopower.com/products/redodo-24v-200ah-lifepo4-battery-5-12kwh-5-12kw
I've had the battery since Monday, today was the first day of sun to give it a full solar charge cycle. I had been charging it with a charger and generator for a few days. The charge cycle today was fine, put 130ah back in the battery in about 4 hours, went from Bulk to Absorb, then Float after 15 mins.
Here's the charge parameters I used. From everything I've read the recommended rates from battery sellers are too high. The fellow that posted these also uses a Midnite controller. I did change the end amps though, the manual recommended 4a.
settings2.jpg
First issue, the controller went to Absorb at 28.2v and within maybe 7-8 mins the charge amps had dropped to zero. Why didn't the controller go to Float when end amps had been met. It kept going for the programmed 15 mins of Absorb.
Second issue. The voltage and controller mode are jumping around. There's no meaningful load on the system, my internet router, but the controler is going from Float, to Bulk MPPT, to Absorb, rinse and repeat. Voltage is going from Float 27.9 drops to 27.1, controller switches to Bulk, then slowly climbs for a few minutes, then jumps to 28.2 in Absorb again, then Float at 27.9, then within a minute or two the voltage drops to 27.1 and the cycle continues. It's currently in Bulk, it's end of day so the sun is gone, so no more data to share.
Here's the recommended charge parameters from the booklet that came with the battery.
settings.jpg
Open to any and all advice, no experience with Lithium Iron, other than the hours of reading online to prepare for the installation. I thought I'd ask for some advice here before I contact the battery seller, hoping it's not a BMS issue.
So, it actually goes to Float ? I was wondering because you mentioned it and I think you are saying that the CLassic is going back to Bulk/Absorb again, SOON ? What amount of time is there between Float and back to Bulk/Absorb again ?
When you see zero amps, is the battery voltage AT the Absorb voltage ? I think you are seeing 28.8V and 29.2V as the range ?
During ending amps change to Float from Absorb, the battery voltage must be in that Absorb range, the mode in Absorb for 60 or 90 seconds. Is the Classic going from that zero amps at Absorb voltage and then jumping back to Bulk ? If so, then when it gets to Absorb again, the battery current has to be below 4 amps for that 60 to 90 seconds (I can't remember which time it is)
You are using the Whizbang Junior for Ending Amps, right ? In the CHARGE--- Advanced menu, it will allow you to pick Shunt or CLASC (WB Jr or Classic's internal shunt)...
How are you viewing the stages and voltages, etc ? As I remember, the Lite does not come with a MNGP remote but, that other one with LEDs and switches.
OR, are you using the Local-App control software on a PC ?
boB
Yes, it goes to Float, just not when it should. End amps were set to 4a. Absorb is set to 15 mins. About 7-8 mins into Absorb, charge current was down to 0, end amps had been met, but it stayed in Absorb for close to the full 15 mins of the Absorb cycle. It was at the set 28.2v for Absorb. While the current was basically zero it kept trying to push the voltage up, I saw 28.3, 28.4, no higher. That went on for about 7 mins. It then went to Float right around the 15 min mark.
The cycling I have no clue. It was in Float, had been for close to 2 hrs maybe so it was end of day and the sun was going down. Next I see the Voltage on the Trimetric is showing 27.1, Float was set for 27.9 and it was there for a few hours. I look at the Classic Monitor on my phone and I see it's in Bulk MPPT, but why did it go from Float 27.9 to 27.1, with no real load. Anyways, it stayed in Bulk MPPT for a few minutes, climbed quickly to 28.2, went to Absorb, and then pretty quickly into Float, and not too many minutes later repeated that cycle again. By then the sun was gone and it was switching into Rest.
Are you using a Whizbang Junior shunt on the battery ?
As far as going back to Bulk, it could be that the Re-Float voltage setting is too high.
Check that setting.
boB
Yes, I have a shunt on the battery. Was never a issue with the lead acid batteries, if current dropped below the end amps setting while in Absorb it would go to Float pretty much straight away, slight delay. But that was always after hours of Absorb, not 15 mins like now.
Yes, I can play with all the settings, but nothing explains why it left Float of 27.9v, and dropped to 27.1v, with no load on the system. I have a feeling it's something in the BMS, but it's a closed, sealed battery, and I have no idea how it was programmed. I have contacted the seller, looking for exact charging parameters, and info on how the BMS was programmed. I found the literature quite lacking, what I posted above from the booklet doesn't help at all. It doesn't make sense that in less than a minute a battery can go from Float at 27.9v, to 27.1v with no load.
One thing I have adjusted, the Classics voltage reading was 2/10ths lower than the actual battery terminal voltage.
Not expecting sun for close to a week by the looks of it. Going to try with low end of recommended absorb, 28.8v, and set the Float and Rebulk a fair bit lower, next solar charge cycle. Genny and charger until then.
I received a response from the battery seller. They provided some parameters which look quite high to me, after everything I've been reading. Anyways here they are.
1. I want to clarify that lithium batteries, including the one you have, typically don't have a float charge phase as seen in traditional lead-acid batteries. Unlike lead-acid batteries, lithium batteries do not require a continuous low-level charge to maintain their state of charge.
For lithium batteries, once they reach their set voltage in the Absorb phase, the charging process often transitions directly to a period of rest or a low-current state, rather than a distinct float phase. This characteristic is one of the differences between lithium and lead-acid battery chemistries.
2. Here are some parameters for your reference:
High voltage cut-off: 31.2V
Charging limited voltage: 29.2V
Balance charging: 29V
Boost charging: 28.8V
Float charge: 27.6V
Boost charge return voltage: 25.6V
Overcharge return voltage: 23.6V
Low voltage warning: 23.6V
Over-discharge voltage: 22.4V
Discharge limited voltage: 21.6V
Over-discharge delay time: 10s
Balance charging time: /
Boost charging time: 240 mins
Balance charging interval: /
I'm still confused with the terminology used, and have no idea how I should setup the Midnite Classic Lite with these numbers provided, they look so high. He states that Float shouldn't be used, and then provides a value for Float, confusing.
Isn't Boost charge the same as Absorb, they're suggesting 4 hrs for Absorb? If Boost is Absorb, and they suggest balancing at 29v, how is that achieved with the Midnite Classic, and solar input only.
Only way to limit the Bulk voltage is "Charge "which is the Absorb voltage in the Classic, along with the current limit setting in the Classic. How do I allow the cells to get to 29v for balancing during Bulk, then back to 28.8v for Boost/Absorb, for their recommended 4 hours? There is the Equalize voltage setting, but I'm not going there until someone says it's a good idea, which I'm doubting.
Because I don't have access to the individual cells for balancing, 29v, I have to balance the whole battery using some voltage figure input into the charge controller.
I will be presenting these questions to the battery seller, but some input, thoughts, on how to properly input these values into the Classic would be appreciated.
Some more info if it's helpful. The battery currently sits at 26.4v, and it's down to 79%, after harvesting just over 4kw yesterday in solar charge. Battery capacity was at 30% first thing yesterday morning, was at 100%, and in Float around 12:30 pm.
Those are some odd settings for Lithium, The values are SO close together it is going t hit rebulk steady when in float. I see this making the Classic always bounce around in different stages. Do you have a make and model of this battery? Sorry if I missed it.
Usually I see float at least 1v lower than absorb on lithiums
Link to the battery is in the first post. The actually cells, I have no idea, sealed unit.
Were your comments about the original parameters used, or the ones provided by the battery seller I posted this morning?
28.8V to 29.2V should not make any difference when the batteries are balancing so I would not worry much about those 2 voltage settings. Not all charge controllers have a boost charge sage anyway.
I should have said Re-Bulk and not Re-Float, before.
boB
I went ahead and set Absorb to 29v to hit the recommended balance charge voltage, 4 hours Absorb per their recommendation, end amps 4a, recommended, which it hit within a few minutes after going to Absorb the first charge cycle, so it'll never see 4 hours of Absorb, Float to 27.6v as per their recommendation, and Rebulk to 25.6v, again as per recommended. See how it goes. Actualy getting a bit of sun today.
Ok, today was the first day of sun since last post. Classic is still acting weird.
Absorb is set to 28.8v, low side of the recommended 28.8v to 29.2v. End amps 4 amps, Absorb time 5 minutes.
Nearing the end of the Bulk cycle (lasted roughly 3.5 hrs, harvested close to 4 kw) the voltage started climbing quickly to the Absorb set point of 28.8v. Once it hit 28.8v it started the cycling again between Bulk, Absorb, Float, it was changing within a second, bouncing all over the place. It was also spiking the voltage, I saw it jump as high as 34.4v for a second, of course it tripped my 2000w 24v inverter that has a high voltage shutdown of 30.5v.
I was standing right there in front of the controller so I quickly set the Absorb to 28.6v, and what looks to be the least amount of Absorb time, 3 mins? It's finally settled out, and is sitting in Float, 27.6v. It's been holding there for 15 mins maybe, voltage not budging from 27.6v, so that's promising. I have Rebulk set to 26.8v.
Any ideas why it's cycling rapidly once it reaches the Absorb set point of 28.8v?
And why would the voltage spike?
At this point I'm not too worried about what the voltage settings should be, I'm well below the recommended setpoints from the supplier of the battery. What I'd like though, is to get through a charge cycle without the controller going beserk at the end of the Bulk cycle, and trying to ruin my day by damaging something. Just to add, I've been using this controller for roughly 15'ish years maybe with lead acid batteries, and it never exhibited this behaviour.
It's now happened with Absorb set to 28.2v, and 28.8v, and Float set to 27.9v and 27.6v. Both times the voltage has jumped high enough beyond those Absorb values to trip my inverter at 30.5v, something isn't right.
I do have a Morningstar Tristar Mppt 60 here, I'm tempted to swap it out with the Classic as a test to see if it's controller related, or maybe the BMS.
If, when that 3.5 to 4 hour time going between Bulk/Absorb was fairly low current, then the spikes to 34V may be the BMS opening up. About how long did you see the Classic sit above 30 volts ?
Also, could it be that you had some large-ish inverter loads on when the inverter disconnected due to high Vbattery ?
Not a bad idea to try the Morningstar. But loads and/or battery abruptly turning off can cause one end of that Tug-Of-War rope to quickly go down on one end. That's an analogy I use for when one unit is trying to pull the voltage up on the DC side and another unit is trying to pull that voltage down.
If one gives up (opens up) then it's all of a sudden un-even for a moment.
30.5 volts is slightly low for an inverter to turn off but could be worse as I have seen before.
boB
No loads of any significance, I'm totally offgrid, no fridge in the winter, no tv, woodstove for heat. The only devices on during the day are the inverter, and my internet router, typically the load is around 50w. A little more at night with a few lights on.
Bulk cycle started around 9am this morning. Voltage climbed to 27'ish volts and very slowly rose from there. Current topped out at 47 amps, steady. Right around 12:30, I noticed on the Classic App on my phone that the batt was getting close to full, so I went to monitor the last minutes of the Bulk Cycle.
Voltage was more rapidly moving upto the setpoint of 28.8v, but the current wasn't tapering off as fast as I would have liked. I'm new to this battery, so I don't know exactly how it responds, reacts. The current would have a steady dropoff with my lead acid batts, a nice gradual decline, this is much different now.
Anyways, it was getting pretty close to the 28.8v Absorb setpoint and the current was coming down, quite rapidly, then the controller starts cycling, jumps to Float, then back to Bulk, to Asborb, to Float, and so on, out of nowhere. I was more concerned with trying to keep an eye on the voltage, as it was jumping all over the place, down in the 27's up to 29's, at one point spiked over 34, then down in the 28 range. This all happened in maybe 10-20 seconds. After trying to see/comprehend what was going on, it was happening so quick, I quickly went into the controller and set the Absorb lower, and the Absorb time to the lowest it would go 3 mins. Took a second to get that cause it kept going back high as I got close to zero. I know now that 3 mins is the lowest I believe. That seemed to settle things down, it then went to Float, and stayed there, at the Float setpoint of 27.6v.
This is exactly what happened the first charge cycle, with the Absorb setpoint a fair bit lower than today. The first time it happened it also tripped my inverter shutoff.
The controller was acting like it didn't know what it should be doing, even with a full volt separating Absorb and Float. Battery manufacturer suggests end amps of 4 amps, I see others setting that value higher, like 10 amps, wonder if that would help?
This is now 2 failed attempts at a charge cycle, it's making me nervous, especially after going for years without a issue with lead acid, beyond the initial growing pains with a new system.
Here's the graph from MyMidnite if it helps in anyway.
Screenshot 2024-01-29 193559.png
That graph doesn't show any spikes in the voltage, but it was jumping all over on the MNGP, once the funny business started.
Unplug the BTS aka Battery Temp Sensor...
Quote from: Wizbandit on January 29, 2024, 07:50:45 PMUnplug the BTS aka Battery Temp Sensor...
Per some documentation here on how to charge Lithium, I was using a stated feature. https://www.midniteftp.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=75
"The Classic now has a few new features that can be of use for Lithium Battery Systems.
Lithium batteries generally do not require temperature compensation like Lead-acid batteries do. Setting the mV/degC/cell to the lowest value without flipping the setting to DISABLE is about all we can do right now. This allows the BTS (Battery Temp Sensor) to function and this allows us to set an emergency HIGH BATTERY SHUTDOWN temperature in the LIMITS MENU under the CHARGE Menu in the Classic. When this temperature is sensed the Classic will stop charging to avoid a catastrophe"
I have it set to the lowest value as instructed. Maybe It isn't a good idea to have it on, but I was using a documented feature, maybe I shouldn't use it, as you suggest?
Maybe even at the lowest setting it's driving up the voltage and causing a problem? My battery sits in my main room, on the floor, sitting in the styrofoam it came in, probably about 18 celsius.
Even if it had an effect, it couldn't have been the issue when I ran the first charge cycle and Absorb was set to 28.2v, lowest setting would have rose the voltage a few 10'ths maybe, not enough to cause the issues I'm having?
What version is your Classic code ?
The Lithium version isn't released quite yet. Well, a beta was released here on the forum but it wasn't good enough we found out. Also, it worked for one version of the Classic I think but not all Classic voltage versions.
boB
Classic Monitor app.
Screenshot_20240129-200932.png
Sounds like I should remove it to test the next charge cycle, easy enough to do.
Here is what I recommend for your battery settings - and I am giving you the 48v versions so dived by 2 for your 24v settings.
55.2 for the Absorb ( you could go up to 56v but cells are almost full below that)
53.6 to 54v for Float
You don't need to use end amps
set the absorb for 15 minutes to half an hour to watch what is going on.
If you see the current drop to near zero when in absorb ( via Whizbang system amps) then you know the battery cells are full . If they are still taking in power then make the absorb time longer.
If in Float and you have loads on when there is plenty of power in from pv and you see a negative current on the Whizbang system amps then you need to raise the float value - start at 53.6 and go up as needed to 54v.
The Classic sometimes will go to absorb below the Absorb voltage setting - at least it has done that with mine . So you need to tweak the Absorb and Float to suit your needs.
Also you need to use the voltage offset tweak for the voltage drop in the cables. Do that when the voltage is highest which will be your absorb voltage. When you do that you will see the Float voltage may not be accurate for where the battery voltage is . That is why you need to tweak all the settings until you get them just right .
With lead acid it didn't make much difference but with Lithium it does. You also may notice that when it goes from Absorb to Float and show resting - your batteries will start discharging even though there is power available. That is because the voltage on lithium stays up high for awhile. It will probably go to Float and provide power to the loads again once the SOC drops to around 99 percent from 100 . If you don't have much of any loads on the system this could take awhile.
I didn't study all your batteries parameters or try to figure out how your bms is working - I am just telling you that these general settings are right for most LiFePo4 cells. The only consideration is the balancing your bms may do - but if it is a passive balancer it doesn't shunt much power from the high cells and if you don't have any software or bluetooth that shows what each cell is actually at during Absorb you won't really ever know how well balanced they are. But at the 55.2v it won't matter too much if they are way out of whack anyway.
Larry
Larry, thank you very much for the detailed post, I will do as you suggest. Unfortunately I have no access to the BMS, it might have made things easier if I could see what was going on inside that battery, other than a voltage reading.
All set, ready for next charge cycle. I did disconnect the BTS.
I posted these in another post, will do so again for reference. These values came from the battery seller.
High voltage cut-off: 31.2V
Charging limited voltage: 29.2V
Balance charging: 29V
Boost charging: 28.8V
Float charge: 27.6V
Boost charge return voltage: 25.6V
Overcharge return voltage: 23.6V
Low voltage warning: 23.6V
Over-discharge voltage: 22.4V
Discharge limited voltage: 21.6V
Over-discharge delay time: 10s
Balance charging time: /
Boost charging time: 240 mins
Balance charging interval: /
Quote from: Muskoka on January 29, 2024, 08:42:34 PMLarry, thank you very much for the detailed post, I will do as you suggest. Unfortunately I have no access to the BMS, it might have made things easier if I could see what was going on inside that battery, other than a voltage reading.
All set, ready for next charge cycle. I did disconnect the BTS.
I posted these in another post, will do so again for reference. These values came from the battery seller.
High voltage cut-off: 31.2V
Charging limited voltage: 29.2V
Balance charging: 29V
Boost charging: 28.8V
Float charge: 27.6V
Boost charge return voltage: 25.6V
Overcharge return voltage: 23.6V
Low voltage warning: 23.6V
Over-discharge voltage: 22.4V
Discharge limited voltage: 21.6V
Over-discharge delay time: 10s
Balance charging time: /
Boost charging time: 240 mins
Balance charging interval: /
Some of those seem way off
High voltage off should be 3.65v per cell so 29.2 v would be highest they should ever go.
Most of that info is for newer inverters/ chargers that use all that terminology and don't apply to the Classic.
We have no idea what that bms is set up for so stick with something sensible. Read some manuals from other lithium batteries that are similar and see what they suggest for theirs.
for example https://kilovault.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/KiloVault-HLX-User-Manual-2023-02-08.pdf
I would suggest the 27.6v for Absorb ( you could go up to 28v if you want to )
Float at 26.8 ( and go higher as I said before if needed )
Absolute lowest cell voltage is 2.5v (20v) but I would go higher so their recommended 22.4v is good for inverter shut off to protect battery harm.
I watched lots of Off Grid Garage youtube videos to start to understand all the info about lithium lifepo4 cells. This is for single cell so multiply by 8 for your 24v values.
https://youtu.be/hLf1FdRjlaw?si=r_T4e4JR2LlN2_WU
Larry
Thank you again for the feedback, I have been watching Off Grid Garage.👍
Got a full charge cycle today, all went well. No tripping the inverter, no crazy voltage spikes.
Have Absorb set to 27.6v, absorb time 30 mins, Float 26.8v, Rebulk 26.4v, end amps set to 0.
Thank you for all the help and feedback, much appreciated.
Another sun day, after about 10am. Thought I'd try a test, and bumped up the Absorb set point to see what would happen.
Well, it didn't work out too well. Yesterday I had Absorb set at 28.0v and everything was fine, other than messing with differning voltage readings, 2/10's, as discussed in my other thread. Classic went from Bulk to Absorb, then to Float, when it was supposed to.
So today I thought I'd try 28.4v for Absorb. Everything was going fine, it got to Absorb, soc was getting close to 100%, then everything started going haywaire again. Voltage spikes, tripped my inverter which is fixed to 30.5v, I can't change it. The Classic started the cycling again of the charge stages. So, I disconnected the panels, rebooted the Classic, set Absorb back to 28.0v. turned the panel breakers back on, and it was fine. Happily sitting in Float now.
What does that sound like to you guys, a BMS issue? I had my meter on the battery terminals when it was in the Absorb cycle and it matched the Classic cause I used the Tweak menu to match things up. It was only out 1/10 nearing the end of Absorb, which I corrected using Tweak menu.
Battery seller is telling me the battery needs 28.8v to 29.2v to balance, and I'm assuming get to 100%. Well, I'm nowhere near that when set at 28.0v. If that extends the life of the battery fine, but why is it being so problematic when the voltages are set to where they are telling me they should be.
Do you have any loads turning on and off ?
May have already chatted about this one ?
boB
Internet router and inverter, that's it, 50-55w.
Think I'll try tomorrow without the end amps. The other day it took 18 mins for the current to drop below the 4 amps I had set for end amps while in Absorb, that was when I had Absorb set to 28.0v. I'll set Absorb to 20 mins maybe, no end amps, and see what happens. Still going to use the 28.4v Absorb setting though, need to know whats causing the issue with raising the Absorb above 28.0v.
Tell me if you can... How long are the spikes above your set point voltage up into the 30 V range ?
A second or less, it "flashes" on the MNGP display, and is gone. It doesn't stay there.
So fast they dont seem to get picked up by My Midnite either, the voltage spikes don't show on the graph, but I definitely see them on the MNGP.
Again, it's only happened when Absorb was set to 28.2v and 28.4v, everything worked fine when Absorb was set to 28.0v.
And while it's happening the voltage is all over the place, in the low 30's, down around 27, back and forth. The mode is also cycling, Bulk, Absorb, Float, it all happens in a second, the cycling, but would likely go on for minutes if I didn't intervene.
Should add, the current is also jumping around while this is going on, 45a, down to 0, back up again. Seems to repeat itself like everything else.
Like I've mentioned before, it's like the controller doesn't know what it's supposed to be doing, and starts jumping around, if that make sense.
That's why I was thinking maybe getting rid of the end amps would help, maybe. One less requirement that had to be met. Then again, it was all fine at 28.0v Absorb, so who knows.
Do the spikes happen when the voltage is near Absorb and the current is near Ending amps ?
Again, we may have chatted about this but maybe once question at a time will help.
boB
Today it happened maybe a minute or less into Absorb. I was watching for the current to start dropping and it just started the jumping around, like it was confused.
Yesterday the current did drop nicely until it was under 4 amps and end amps kicked in. That took 18 mins and it was around 45 a when it started in Absorb. That was with Absorb set to 28.0v.
Might add, both yesterday and today was totally clear blue sky when it transitioned to Absorb, no clouds, shading, nothing.
You don't need to use end amps
Larry
Yes, I can just set Absorb to 15-20 mins, or the battery suppliers suggested 4 hrs, and turn off end amps, but I don't think that's the root of the problem. End amps worked fine yesterday, whether it's necessary or not, is another thing.
The only thing that's changed from a properly functioning charge cycle on this battery is the Absorb voltage, 28.0v, ok, 28.2v not ok, 28.4v not ok, that's a problem. Especially when the battery supplier is telling me Absorb should be between 28.8v and 29.2v.
Now, whether that's too high or not can certainly be debated, but the battery should be able to go that high, even just for a test run, but it can't, because either something in the battery, like the BMS is causing issues, or the Classic is causing issues. Or, maybe the fact the charge cycle was a success yesterday at 28.0v, and end amps set, was just a fluke, I don't know at this point. All I do know is it did work.
Absorb of 27v, 27.6v, 28.0v, is irrelevant at the moment, they should be able to do 29.2v, but can't, that's a problem. Or, maybe it would work fine at 29.2v Absorb for a test, but I doubt it would transition through Absorb to Float nicely, because it can't currently do it with Absorb set higher than 28.0v.
This is me just thinking out loud.
If it was me, I would open that battery and put in a proper active bms that can be programmed and monitored.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 04, 2024, 11:54:52 PMIf it was me, I would open that battery and put in a proper active bms that can be programmed and monitored.
Larry
Larry, I'd love to, but I still have a 1.5 week window in which to return the battery for a full refund. I can't be messing it up.
Okay, another charge cycle today. A little late because the clouds didn't clear out until maybe 1.5 hrs ago. Perfectly clear blue skies now.
I'd say success, but sketchy. I turned End Amps off to start with. I set Absorb time to 30 mins to give it time to do "something". I'm posting a link to a 10 minute video on my Google Drive below, first minute is real close to the transition to Absorb from Bulk. Last 9 or so minutes are the controller current, and modes jumping around. There is the odd spike in voltage, but nothing tripped the inverter today. I'd say overall the jumping around was less severe with End Amps off.
I set Absorb to 28.6v, I still believe if it can't reach 28.8v to 29.2v something is wrong somewhere, we're getting closer. Not to say I'll keep it set that high, but it needs to be able to do it before I'll call this combination of CC and battery a success.
Here's a link to the video, please have a watch, and let me know your thoughts on what you see. I'm mainly concerned with the current, and modes jumping around, not where Absorb is set. And, the skies are clear, so the jumping around is not due to shading, or any loads. Only thing thats on is my inverter, and router. I did go into the controller once the current seemed steady, and basically staying below 2amps, and I set Absorb to 3 minutes so it could transition. It did transitioned to Float just fine. That was after the video was finished, I didn't want to interrupt it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hn1_pqCzDMkvZ_aJXaKfWEG9UyX5TdkS/view?usp=sharing
I see it says the video is still processing, may take a bit. It finished uploading from here a while ago. Should be ok to download.
Waiting for your video to load....
If you want, you can try the new Classic firmware that fixes some things and also adds a Lithium selection in the VMM screen (Vulcan Mind Meld) where, when the MidNite logo appears, hold down the LEFT and RIGHT arrow keys and go through the selections.
The battery regulation voltage should be a bit better (actually +0.1 V better) in all battery selection modes.
Also fixed a bug in Waste-Not
Battery temperature sense can turn charger off at high and low temperatures limits. Lithium turns off at 2 degrees C or so.
Some minor annoyances also tended to like the siren not going off when ENTER is pressed in main status menu to force an MPPT sweep.
http://bob.midniteftp.com/K7IQ/Firmware-Latest/Classic-3786/
MNGP and Classic will both want to be updated.
Will keep trying for the video until I can see it.
boB
Thanks Bob, will try the new firmware.
Here's a link to a much smaller video, I squashed it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_A0UJSTNXwK-zUiN82TzD5eV9ekKpG_L/view?usp=sharing
It's been a while since I did a firmware update. Right click the 150 control and the MNGP file and save as? Then run the Classic programmer on a laptop connected through usb?
Lol, for some reason the video is mirrored, see if I can fix that. In Windows media player it's sideways lol. You can right click in Windows media player and turn it 90 degrees.
OK, I am watching your video. The first minute or so kind of tells what is going on...
The newer firmware I just uploaded may help "some". Mainly in that for the Lithium setting, the difference between Absorb voltage and where it turns into BULK MPPT is tighter. -0.2V instead of the Vabsorb -0.4 or -0.5V it is now which is mainly for flooded lead acid.
So, When the battery voltage is within a couple of tenths of the absorb voltage (just slightly below) and up to the actual absorb voltage, you have LOW battery current (< 2Amps) and higher PV voltage (closer to Voc) which is what you would expect for being in "Absorb" and low battery current needed.
THEN, when the battery voltage drops below the Absorb voltage "window", the Classic goes back to BULK MPPT (Vin of around 70V) and the battery current is maximum or around 45 amps. Then it goes back to Absorb voltage again and LOW current and Vpv near Voc again.
This says to me that you have some kind of load on the battery turning ON and OFF that is dragging that battery voltage down into the BULK MPPT region again. Then, all of a sudden the load (or whatever is dragging the battery V down) turns OFF and it goes back to LOW current and high Vinput (Vpv) and back to Absorb again. This is what it tells me in the first minute or so of your video.
Now I need to go back and watch the rest of the video.
Also, I do notice that there may be a slight delay when the MNGP display shows Absorb but I see the BULK MPPT numbers (45Amps) just at the MPPT to Absorb transition. The MNGP should update around 3 to 5 times per second which should be fast enough not to notice but I may be slow :)
This video is exactly what we needed ! Good job !
boB
Quote from: Muskoka on February 05, 2024, 02:06:58 PMThanks Bob, will try the new firmware.
Here's a link to a much smaller video, I squashed it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_A0UJSTNXwK-zUiN82TzD5eV9ekKpG_L/view?usp=sharing
It's been a while since a did a firmware update. Right click the 150 control and the MNGP file and save as? Then run the Classic programmer on a laptop connected through usb?
Lol, for some reason the video is mirrored, see if I can fix that. In Windows media player it's sideways lol. You can right click in Windows media player and turn it 90 degrees.
Yeah, copy those .CTL and the .REM file(s) either to where your update files were OR just take the whole thing, including the programming EXE file to a new directory.
I am using windows 10 here and I notice that I have to turn the Classic OFF and ON several times before the program will do what it is supposed to. It might just be me or my cable or something.
Let the Classic sit with the battery breaker OFF for several seconds before turning it back on when the update program isn't responding the way it should.
The program will see that that Classic is connected when it is ON but when you turn the Classic from OFF to ON and the Classic boots up where the FANS turn ON, it did not "catch". It's those first 3 or so seconds when the Classic powers up and the 3 LEDs inside the Classic's air window go on left to right that it is looking for the program to connect and upload. This works the same when you are updating the MNGP.
Your first video (the only one I've seen so far) does not look mirror imaged to me. Looks good.
boB
I can assure you there's no load on that system, not enough to pull anything down, 50-55 watts is it, my inverter, and my router. I'm the only one here, in a camp I built in the bush, no appliances except a fridge I run in the summer, it's been unplugged since November. No tv either, watch everything on a tablet. I do have a gaming computer, I like flight, racing simulators, but it's off. I'd turn the inverter and router off if I could, I want the inverter on to see it it trips, and I need the router for the local network so I can monitor the system while charging on my phone or tablet.
So I can do the firmware update over my netwrok, the Classic is connected? (disregard)
Ah ok, the second video (same video just compressed) was called Midnite (200mb), for some reason when I click on the google drive link from here it plays mirrored.
OK, if not loads, then what does your battery system consist of ?
What batteries are you using and how many batteries are connected together ?
I was thinking that if you have more than one battery and BMS in parallel that maybe one of them is turning OFF and ON and OFF ? That would also cause this. Remember that when a battery is low in charge, it is a load.
But when its BMS turns it off, it is not a load at that time.
Had to ask.
I have 2 totally independant system's, one 24v, the other 12v.
The system I'm talking about here is (1) REDODO LiFePO4 24V 200ah battery bought Jan 10th this year, I received it on the 15th of Jan, 1540watts of panel, Classic Lite wth a MNGP, wBjr, and a 24v 2000w inverter.
OK, well it doesn't sound like a single Redodo battery/BMS should have this issue UNLESS it is turning itself OFF when that 28.5V absorb is reached ?
Try turning down your Absorb voltage set point by, say, 0.5 volts and see if things STAY at high current.
What makes me say this is that maybe when the Classic is in Absorb and you see the 1.7 amps or so, that could be your loads like the inverter etc. and when the BMS in the Redodo turns back ON again, it starts charging at 40+ amps again ?
That's about all I can think of at the moment.
Going to lunch. Will check back in just a little bit, Muskoka
I don't want to lower Absorb, I want to raise it to the level the battery supplier is tellimg me to use, 28.8v to 29.2v, as a test. I likely won't leave it that high, but this CC and this battery should have no problem going to 28.8v to 29.2v, and transitioning smoothly from Bulk, to Absorb, to Float. That's the way it should work, but something in the mix is causing grief. Turning End Amps off seems to have helped some, but it's still kind of erratic when transitioning.
To recap:
When Absrob was set to 28.2v the Classic did the cycling thing, very erratic. Voltage spiked high enough to trip my inverter, 30.5v. I did have end amps on.
When Absorb was set to 28.4v the Classic did the cycling thing, very erratic. Voltage spiked high enough to trip my inverter, 30.5v. I did have end amps on.
When Absorb was set to 28.0v the Classic did not do the cycling thing, it transitioned to Absorb smoothly, and the current dropped until End Amps (4a) was met, and it went to Float.
When Absorb was set to 28.6v, the Classic did do the cycling thing, but less dramatic than before. Only difference was End Amps was turned off.
So, I'm still not at 28.8v, which is the recommended low end, Absorb of 28.8v shouldn't be a issue for this battery or CC. I'm going to get the new firmware installed tonight, supposed to have sun tomorrow. I'm going to leave Absorb at 28.6v, and see if it's any smoother, I'll take another video.
Might get another test day Wednesday as well, and then that looks like it for at least a week.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, running at Absorb of 28.0v or below should be a choice, one that extends the battery life. It shouldn't be something I'm "forced" to do, because of a limitation, or problem with the CC, or the battery. Hope that makes some sense.
Muskoka, I only wanted you to reduce the Absorb voltage momentarily to see if the cycling went away or if the current stayed higher.
I would like to verify my assumption that the BMS is turning ON and OFF where you have it set now.
It looks to me from your video as though a load ( the battery BMS ?) is turning OFF and ON and ON.
boB
Ya ok, your meaning with the new firmware I take it.
Thats why I had added that info, "something "wasn't happy until I lowered Absorb to 28.0v, when I had end amps on, but yes not new firmware testing.
Firmware updated for Classic and MNGP, programming done, ready for tomorrow.
Bob, if you want me to test a higher Absorb, give me a number. I left things on the default for Lithium, 28.2v when I did the mind meld. I'm ok testing there for the initial run, but would like to try higher at some point, provided the first run at 28.2v is a success. Guess I'll leave End Amps off.
No, I wanted you to test with a temporary lower Absorb voltage with the present firmware in the Classic you have. Before trying the newer software that is
After you have put the newer firmware into your Classic, then you can try it AS IS and higher voltage.
I have a feeling that the same thing is going to happen with the newer firmware after seeing your video though.
boB
Ah ok, by 3 in the afternoon the suns too far gone to do anything, this time of year.
And, like I said, I've already tested various lower Absorb voltages, but, End amps was on. So I'm not sure what lowering it today would have shown, proved, I've already tested that, and it didn't go so well.
Quote from: Muskoka on February 05, 2024, 06:22:03 AMQuote from: ClassicCrazy on February 04, 2024, 11:54:52 PMIf it was me, I would open that battery and put in a proper active bms that can be programmed and monitored.
Larry
Larry, I'd love to, but I still have a 1.5 week window in which to return the battery for a full refund. I can't be messing it up.
Send it back for the refund and get a battery with internals you can monitor. It would avoid this guessing game now and in the future.
Larry
Quote from: Muskoka on February 05, 2024, 06:24:03 PMAh ok, by 3 in the afternoon the suns too far gone to do anything, this time of year.
And, like I said, I've already tested various lower Absorb voltages, but, End amps was on. So I'm not sure what lowering it today would have shown, proved, I've already tested that, and it didn't go so well.
OK, so when you went to lower Absorb voltages, did it do the same thing as it did in your video ?
Your video really does indicate a load turning on and off to me... However, a load that your PV array is capable of supporting to a voltage close to the Absorb voltage. Either that, or that battery plus its BMS is very strange.
I checked out the link for the battery and I like it ! (I think)
boB
Yes, it did the same, but was more erratic. The voltage pikes were greater, enough to trip the inverter. And it cycled through the modes quicker I'd say.
Again, todays absorb voltage of 28.6v was the highest I've tried so far, and it didn't trip the inverter, was less erratic with the cycling, but End Amps was off. That is the only difference. There is no loads, nothing. This is basically a bare charge controller, and a battery, that's it. I've said all this before, as detailed as I can, sorry but I'm getting pretty frustrated repeating myself. I'm definitely leaning towards Larry's suggestion, and just sending the battery back. But, I will really be upset if I buy another, and end up right back were I am now.
Larry, where am I going to get a off the shelf battery that has a accessible BMS, one that I can program. I need a battery now, not some diy that I have to build. Maybe at some point, but not now, this is my main system, I can't do without it. Maybe there's a off the shelf battery that has BT capability, I haven't come across one, and likely not one I could afford.
I'm not looking forward to doing this cause I have to tear my systems apart, but I think it's time to remove the Classic, put the Tristar in its place, and see what happens. Then we'll know if it's the Classic, or the batteries BMS.
I think trying the other controller is a great idea.
But first, I don't suppose you happen to have a DC clamp on ammeter do you ?
A Whizbang Junior should also work.
What I would like to know is the current going into and out of the battery itself when the Classic shows Absorb current and BULK MPPT current are changing.. Would be nice to know how much current for sure is going to who. When the voltage and current is moving. It stays constant long enough to measure I'm sure.
boB
Yes, I do have a clamp on meter.
Quote from: Muskoka on February 05, 2024, 08:13:15 PMYes, I do have a clamp on meter.
YAY !! Can you put it around the battery positive or negative on the battery terminals at least on the battery side of the cable ?
Second question would be, can you read the camp meter and the Classic screen at the same time ?
That would work. It will also show if it is charging or discharging.
It will also help verify what is being displayed on the MNGP is at least in the ball park.
I just finished removing the Classic, and installing the Tristar. See how that goes first. If the Tristar has problems, the battery goes back.
Great ! Can't wait to hear what happens.
I was going to say, next time (if there is a next time) you re-connect the Classic, try changing the MPPT MODE from SOLAR to Legacy P&O mode. It tracks the maximum power point slower and may tend to produce way less spikes ? Maybe ?
boB
Some models to consider Signature Solar, Orient Power, or SOK - I think they have them in stock in usa but you would have to check . The models I am thinking of have bms that either has display and also software or connect to app that shows discharge mosfet, charge mosfet, and each individual cell voltage.
https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-ll-lithium-battery-v2-24v-200ah-server-rack-battery/
https://www.us.sokbattery.com/product-page/sokess-24v-100ah-lifepo4-battery
https://www.opsolarbattery.com/product-page/100AhServerRackBattery
Larry
Update: Full sun day, same issues with the Tristar, battery is being returned. Was nearing the Absorb voltage, I set 28.8v, low end of recommendation from supplier. The Tristar, like the Classic, went to Absorb a few 1/10's at least early, battery voltage was around 28.5v-28.6v, suddenly the inverter tripped, voltage bouncing around, so I shut it all down. I had seen what I needed to see.
I tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry
Quote from: Muskoka on February 06, 2024, 10:03:13 AMUpdate: Full sun day, same issues with the Tristar, battery is being returned. Was nearing the Absorb voltage, I set 28.8v, low end of recommendation from supplier. The Tristar, like the Classic, went to Absorb a few 1/10's at least early, battery voltage was around 28.5v-28.6v, suddenly the inverter tripped, voltage bouncing around, so I shut it all down. I had seen what I needed to see.
that is too bad. I see you are in Canada so hope they either send you a new battery soon or you find a different one. Can you buy a couple inexpensive lead acid deep cycles to get you by until you figure out a new lithium ?
Larry
I put my systems back together, and did get a "little" test with the Classic. I set Absorb to 28.2v, 3 mins. no End Amps.
Because the system was very close to being full from earlier, there wasn't much Bulk time. But it was putting 45 amps into the battery for a few minutes.
New firmware installed of course, it went to Absorb exactly at the set point of 28.2v, not a bit early like before. It was in Absorb for close to the 3 minutes set, the whole time the current gradually decreased, input voltage increased slowly. I wasn't on a timer, but at 11 amps it transitioned to Float, no hiccups, funniness, so it had likely hit the 3 minute mark. I was standing right there watching the amps come down on the MNGP, and it hit 11 amps (likely 3 mins), and went right to 0, and Float. Was nice to see.
So, no jumping around, everything looked very calm, and doing what it should be doing.
The first time I tried with Absorb at 28.2v days ago it didn't do too well. Now looks like the wet weather is pushed back to Thursday, so I might get a few more tests in.
I do have my old lead acid batts/system, well half of the original 24v, now running as 12v. One batt is fine, the other has one pretty weak cell, but I can limp on it for a while. Other two went for scrap lead, which is only 15 cents a pound now. I took 2 8L16's, a group 27, and a small atv battery to the junk yard/recycler that I always go to, got $35 for the whole lot, a few years back I got that amount for one 8L16, geeez.
I've sent a message to the battery seller, see what he says, I'm ready to send it back for a refund, but I told him I'd wait for his response before doing anything. Purchased through Amazon, and still have until next Wednesday to return it.
Speaking of cheap lead acid, bought my last one about 3 years ago, was $350 dollars, right around $400 after tax. Inquired about them around 5 months ago, $650 out the door after tax. Not so cheap anymore. Whe I told them what I used to pay they looked in the system and said yup, price has gone up. Can buy LiFePO4 at a much better deal now.
When I was doing the firmware update I did have to cycle the Classic a few times for it to take, and start doing the update. I think Bob mentioned in a previous post that was normal.
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 06, 2024, 11:49:47 AMI tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry
Larry. Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?
Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?
I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.
If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.
Did any of this happen ?
MNGP version 3785. Classic version 3786 are the new ones.
boB
Quote from: Muskoka on February 06, 2024, 12:16:54 PMWhen I was doing the firmware update I did have to cycle the Classic a few times for it to take, and start doing the update. I think Bob mentioned in a previous post that was normal.
Sorry, I did not mean to edit your post.
Yeah, I am not sure what's up but we got it eventually to update without too much time spent I guess.
Thank you for trying that !
Quote from: boB on February 06, 2024, 02:03:29 PMQuote from: ClassicCrazy on February 06, 2024, 11:49:47 AMI tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry
Larry. Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?
Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?
I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.
If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.
Did any of this happen ?
MNGP version 3785. Classic version 3786 are the new ones.
boB
Classic 150 here - I updated Classic first, then MNGP . Not sure if it made a difference but when I first did the update I didn't have the updater program closed and I saw Got Comm on the mngp screen. I unplugged that , and as I said before tried to update a couple more times making sure I shut off updater and unplugged usb at the right times. Always the same - I got into the solar update screen and then selected lithium, voltage, and time. But after that I hear some slight clicking noises - the fan initialization on the Classic never seemed to run and mngp was just stuck on sending data. I should have video taped it but was before breakfast and I didnt' think of that.
I then tried updating to the previous firmware a number of times, tried the vmm and hardware reset with jumpers. Nothing worked - no fans on startup - always stuck on the sending data screen.
So I gave up and I have another Classic here so I replaced it , updated that firmware with with newest one off midnite site and it all went well . So somehow the other Classic got broke - maybe just mngp ? I didn't want to swap that out with the new one I just put on because don't want to mess anything up.
Initially I did use both of your newest codes - but am using a different computer for updates and maybe I didn't get the codes right ? I have to save them using notepad and then put the names on them because when I download all I got was big screen of data.
The newer mngp code must of taken since I saw the new lithium selection.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 06, 2024, 02:37:51 PMQuote from: boB on February 06, 2024, 02:03:29 PMQuote from: ClassicCrazy on February 06, 2024, 11:49:47 AMI tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry
Larry. Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?
Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?
I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.
If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.
Did any of this happen ?
MNGP version 3785. Classic version 3786 are the new ones.
boB
Classic 150 here - I updated Classic first, then MNGP . Not sure if it made a difference but when I first did the update I didn't have the updater program closed and I saw Got Comm on the mngp screen. I unplugged that , and as I said before tried to update a couple more times making sure I shut off updater and unplugged usb at the right times. Always the same - I got into the solar update screen and then selected lithium, voltage, and time. But after that I hear some slight clicking noises - the fan initialization on the Classic never seemed to run and mngp was just stuck on sending data. I should have video taped it but was before breakfast and I didnt' think of that.
I then tried updating to the previous firmware a number of times, tried the vmm and hardware reset with jumpers. Nothing worked - no fans on startup - always stuck on the sending data screen.
So I gave up and I have another Classic here so I replaced it , updated that firmware with with newest one off midnite site and it all went well . So somehow the other Classic got broke - maybe just mngp ? I didn't want to swap that out with the new one I just put on because don't want to mess anything up.
Initially I did use both of your newest codes - but am using a different computer for updates and maybe I didn't get the codes right ? I have to save them using notepad and then put the names on them because when I download all I got was big screen of data.
The newer mngp code must of taken since I saw the new lithium selection.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 06, 2024, 02:37:51 PMQuote from: boB on February 06, 2024, 02:03:29 PMQuote from: ClassicCrazy on February 06, 2024, 11:49:47 AMI tried doing update on my Classic but am having some troubles - Classic is getting stuck at the MNGP sending data screen . I tried reloading firmware - vmm, nothing seems to work.
I am trying to go back to 2196 firmware but had same issue so reloading that again.
Larry
Larry. Did you update both the MNGP and the Classic ?
Which voltage of Classic are you updating again ?
I have updated a 150 and a 200 here successfully.
If you try to use the new MNGP code and VMM to an older version of Classic, the MNGP should tell you, during the stuck data sending, that you need to updated the Classic.
Did any of this happen ?
MNGP version 3785. Classic version 3786 are the new ones.
boB
Classic 150 here - I updated Classic first, then MNGP . Not sure if it made a difference but when I first did the update I didn't have the updater program closed and I saw Got Comm on the mngp screen. I unplugged that , and as I said before tried to update a couple more times making sure I shut off updater and unplugged usb at the right times. Always the same - I got into the solar update screen and then selected lithium, voltage, and time. But after that I hear some slight clicking noises - the fan initialization on the Classic never seemed to run and mngp was just stuck on sending data. I should have video taped it but was before breakfast and I didnt' think of that.
I then tried updating to the previous firmware a number of times, tried the vmm and hardware reset with jumpers. Nothing worked - no fans on startup - always stuck on the sending data screen.
So I gave up and I have another Classic here so I replaced it , updated that firmware with with newest one off midnite site and it all went well . So somehow the other Classic got broke - maybe just mngp ? I didn't want to swap that out with the new one I just put on because don't want to mess anything up.
Initially I did use both of your newest codes - but am using a different computer for updates and maybe I didn't get the codes right ? I have to save them using notepad and then put the names on them because when I download all I got was big screen of data.
The newer mngp code must of taken since I saw the new lithium selection.
Larry
Larry, when you get a chance, please plug the MNGP into the Classic 150 you think got updated and see what revision and date shows up on the MNGP revision screen.
Sounds like your Classic did not update. OR that classic did not get turned off and on again. Did the MNGP send ANY data to the classic or did it just stop after a while ?
I have to figure this out
Thanks
The MNGP started to send data so it said - but then stopped .
I will hook the dead classic up again sometime just to power and see if I can get it back to life somehow. All the updates I did to it completed I thought.
When I tried the hardware reboot - turn classic on , put jumper 4 on , then jumper 1 - it never did flash the three lights on the Classic like instructions said it should.
Sun is going down here now so I probably won't play with these Classics again until tomorrow.
Did you want me to plug a good working mngp screen into the Classic that failed ? Or to plug the MNGP screen from the failed Classic into another Classic ?
Larry
Hope it's alright to post a link to a video. I had watched this before, had forgot about it. Very good info for anyone wondering about LifePO4 charging parameters.
https://youtu.be/qZg4Jxftw-c?si=c7QXzvQPSw8CAAJp
Question. This battery is only having issues when the voltage is at the highest point in the charge cycle. Likely from cell imbalance and runner cells that are tripping the BMS to shut off, turn on, shut off, turn on, etc.
How would I go about trying to balance the cells in a closed system like this. I have no access to the BMS, so what steps do I need to take to balance. There's no Equalization like lead acid, so that's not an option. Seems to be a cat chasing it's tail. If I need to raise the voltage to balance, it's going to trip HVD.
Or, can balance be achieved with high voltage but very low current. I do have an adjustable power supply here, 30v max, 10a. Could that be used to try and balance cells. I still can't monitor anything, but would it be worth a try.
Battery return is being worked on, but I haven't 100% given up on trying "something" to get this battery usable, with a near full charge, and not only 80-85 percent. I need every amp out of this battery I can get.
I can't imagine that only charging to say 28.0v Bulk/Absorb is enough to balance cells? Battery seller lists balance voltage as 29v. I could set my power supply to 29v, and low current, a few amps, one amp?
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 06, 2024, 06:10:15 PMThe MNGP started to send data so it said - but then stopped .
I will hook the dead classic up again sometime just to power and see if I can get it back to life somehow. All the updates I did to it completed I thought.
When I tried the hardware reboot - turn classic on , put jumper 4 on , then jumper 1 - it never did flash the three lights on the Classic like instructions said it should.
Sun is going down here now so I probably won't play with these Classics again until tomorrow.
Did you want me to plug a good working mngp screen into the Classic that failed ? Or to plug the MNGP screen from the failed Classic into another Classic ?
Larry
Thank you Larry !
The Classic should not need any jumpers on it. In fact, the BOOT jumper will keep it from booting.
If the fans and the 3 inside LEDs did not come up, then it either needs the boot jumper removed or it got as far as erasing the main firmware (but not the bootloader!) and just needs to be tried again.
I had to try a few times turning the Classic off and on after the program says to turn it off and on. It should connect within 1 to 2 seconds otherwise you have to turn it off and on again.
I'm not sure why it is taking a few times to do that ? As I remembered, Matt, the programmer at the time, had taken my original Classic update program and made it work way better. It's Windows so I don't know the real deep internals of that. Just the basic USB interfacing which at the time, was quite a challenge for me.
Thanks for taking the time to try again. Some day, I should make it out to your place and we can play.
boB
Quote from: Muskoka on February 07, 2024, 05:58:29 AMQuestion. This battery is only having issues when the voltage is at the highest point in the charge cycle. Likely from cell imbalance and runner cells that are tripping the BMS to shut off, turn on, shut off, turn on, etc.
How would I go about trying to balance the cells in a closed system like this. I have no access to the BMS, so what steps do I need to take to balance. There's no Equalization like lead acid, so that's not an option. Seems to be a cat chasing it's tail. If I need to raise the voltage to balance, it's going to trip HVD.
Or, can balance be achieved with high voltage but very low current. I do have an adjustable power supply here, 30v max, 10a. Could that be used to try and balance cells. I still can't monitor anything, but would it be worth a try.
Battery return is being worked on, but I haven't 100% given up on trying "something" to get this battery usable, with a near full charge, and not only 80-85 percent. I need every amp out of this battery I can get.
I can't imagine that only charging to say 28.0v Bulk/Absorb is enough to balance cells? Battery seller lists balance voltage as 29v. I could set my power supply to 29v, and low current, a few amps, one amp?
Yes, I was going to say to try a power supply if you had one. It MAY have a similar problem but if the batteries want 40+ amps, that power supply is probably going to current limit and it won't get anything into the battery.
Maybe this battery can balance at high voltage and low current and that is what it was doing ? Doesn't make much sense though, does it.
boB
Quote from: Muskoka on February 07, 2024, 05:58:29 AMQuestion. This battery is only having issues when the voltage is at the highest point in the charge cycle. Likely from cell imbalance and runner cells that are tripping the BMS to shut off, turn on, shut off, turn on, etc.
How would I go about trying to balance the cells in a closed system like this. I have no access to the BMS, so what steps do I need to take to balance. There's no Equalization like lead acid, so that's not an option. Seems to be a cat chasing it's tail. If I need to raise the voltage to balance, it's going to trip HVD.
Or, can balance be achieved with high voltage but very low current. I do have an adjustable power supply here, 30v max, 10a. Could that be used to try and balance cells. I still can't monitor anything, but would it be worth a try.
Battery return is being worked on, but I haven't 100% given up on trying "something" to get this battery usable, with a near full charge, and not only 80-85 percent. I need every amp out of this battery I can get.
I can't imagine that only charging to say 28.0v Bulk/Absorb is enough to balance cells? Battery seller lists balance voltage as 29v. I could set my power supply to 29v, and low current, a few amps, one amp?
For my bms overvolt protection on one or more cell will shut off all the charging , but still allow battery discharge. For my bms the balancing goes on until the cell overvolt protection falls to a programmed cell release voltage and then it will allow charging again. You need to add up all the cells to get the total battery voltage - so if there are cells a lot higher than the others then the battery voltage can look okay , but the high cells will rise rapidly . The bms you have probably will only shunt 100mv or so . Charging it slowly at 1 amp or so for a long time may eventually get the cells balanced. But I am assuming how your bms works and don't know.
Larry
Quote from: boB on February 07, 2024, 11:19:31 AMThank you Larry !
The Classic should not need any jumpers on it. In fact, the BOOT jumper will keep it from booting.
If the fans and the 3 inside LEDs did not come up, then it either needs the boot jumper removed or it got as far as erasing the main firmware (but not the bootloader!) and just needs to be tried again.
I had to try a few times turning the Classic off and on after the program says to turn it off and on. It should connect within 1 to 2 seconds otherwise you have to turn it off and on again.
I'm not sure why it is taking a few times to do that ? As I remembered, Matt, the programmer at the time, had taken my original Classic update program and made it work way better. It's Windows so I don't know the real deep internals of that. Just the basic USB interfacing which at the time, was quite a challenge for me.
Thanks for taking the time to try again. Some day, I should make it out to your place and we can play.
boB
Bob
I just hooked up the Classic that was having problems . I turned it on and it just started up normally with the last firmware I put in it.The MNGP sent data to the Classic quickly and normally.
I am reloading the new lithium test firmware now.
I guess that Classic just needed an overnight rest for some reason !
The reload - same as I used yesterday- went all okay , no problems .
My only guess is that yesterday I did something out of sequence with the updater - though I know I did the Classic first and then MNGP.
Alls well that ends well.
I may try to update the new Classic that I swapped out and is running my charging now. Later that is !
At least I don't have a dead Classic any longer.
Larry
Another test day, although it was pretty cloudy with the odd sun window.
Absorb 28.0v
Absorb time 30 mins
End Amps 4a
Float 27.0v
Battery is happily in Float, nothing odd to report in the charge cycle. It once again transitioned to Absorb right on the set point. Nice gradual decline in current to reach End Amps, took a few minutes, transition to Float.
1.8kw harvested.
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on February 07, 2024, 02:34:31 PMBob
I just hooked up the Classic that was having problems . I turned it on and it just started up normally with the last firmware I put in it.The MNGP sent data to the Classic quickly and normally.
I am reloading the new lithium test firmware now.
I guess that Classic just needed an overnight rest for some reason !
The reload - same as I used yesterday- went all okay , no problems .
My only guess is that yesterday I did something out of sequence with the updater - though I know I did the Classic first and then MNGP.
Alls well that ends well.
I may try to update the new Classic that I swapped out and is running my charging now. Later that is !
At least I don't have a dead Classic any longer.
Larry
Excellent Larry !! Great !
The program first wants to see the Classic USB is connectable so that is why the Classic is on at first.
Then, it has to update the Classic within the first 3 seconds that the Classic comes alive.
The program sends out a short string of data to the Classic as soon as that USB comes alive when you power it on again. That data makes the Classic erase the code it is about to update with. If the USB connection isn't made during that first 3 seconds, the word doesn't happen and the Classic doesn't see it and the Classic just boots normally.
So, there's something weird with the timing. BUT as long as the program saw the Classic the first time, it will eventually program the Classic but the user must turn the Classic off and on maybe a few times so that the program catches.
It MAY be also that the Classic has to be turned off for a certain minimum amount of time so that the 3.3V on the processor a bit deader than it would if it were only turned off for a second or two. I should look at the internal power supply to see if there is any correlation.
boB
I think we've done a good job of diagnosing what's going on with this battery. I came across this post on the diysolarforum, and this persons issue is exactly what I'm seeing with this battery.
It can't get close to the "rated bulk/absorb/balance/100% soc" recommended voltage, without the BMS disconnecting.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/high-cell-voltage-disconnect-issue.31536/
This is why I was adamant to test this battery at it's recommended charge voltage, it's needs to be able to perform at the recommended voltage, or it's of no use to anyone.
I don't want a battery that can't reach a recommended level, and I'm not going to lower the voltage to mask a problem. Again, whether that is best practice for extended life of the battery can be debated, but it has to at least be able to achieve the recommended levels, or it's defective, in my view, and needs to be replaced with something that can.
As we all know, these batteries aren't cheap. You need to get what you paid for. I guess my only concern is, are all these off the shelf ready to go LiFePO4 batteries going to perform the same, and people just accept it by lowering the voltage to accomodate something that is substandard, doesn't live up to what it was advertised to do.
The only reason these batteries can't reach rated spec is either the BMS is faulty, or the cells are out of whack balance wise, neither case is acceptable. Not at this price point.
Quote from: Muskoka on February 08, 2024, 05:27:20 AMI think we've done a good job of diagnosing what's going on with this battery. I came across this post on the diysolarforum, and this persons issue is exactly what I'm seeing with this battery.
It can't get close to the "rated bulk/absorb/balance/100% soc" recommended voltage, without the BMS disconnecting.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/high-cell-voltage-disconnect-issue.31536/
This is why I was adamant to test this battery at it's recommended charge voltage, it's needs to be able to perform at the recommended voltage, or it's of no use to anyone.
I don't want a battery that can't reach a recommended level, and I'm not going to lower the voltage to mask a problem. Again, whether that is best practice for extended life of the battery can be debated, but it has to at least be able to achieve the recommended levels, or it's defective, in my view, and needs to be replaced with something that can.
As we all know, these batteries aren't cheap. You need to get what you paid for. I guess my only concern is, are all these off the shelf ready to go LiFePO4 batteries going to perform the same, and people just accept it by lowering the voltage to accomodate something that is substandard, doesn't live up to what it was advertised to do.
The only reason these batteries can't reach rated spec is either the BMS is faulty, or the cells are out of whack balance wise, neither case is acceptable. Not at this price point.
The battery you have is at the bottom tier of price point so you shouldn't expect too much. Especially with a bms that has no monitoring of individual cells or changing the setpoint ability.
I don't think it is unreasonable to tweak settings a little bit to compensate for what doesn't match up. But yours is way off and the manufacturers recommendations are way off too.
Reading voltages by bms or meters or charge controllers are all slightly variable.
Larry
I was just watching the new Lithium test firmware for the Classic since I wanted to dial it in for the voltage offset. I was watching what my batteries bms were reporting ( all four of them) and I was looking at the Local Status app connected to the Classic . So I wasn't looking at a meter actually on the battery or on the Classic.
What I noticed and didn't realize before is that the battery voltage me on Local Status app when in Absorb was not showing me the actual battery voltage seen by the Classic - it was showing me the Absorb setpoint. If I went to the Local Status app Voltage offset tweak on the config Tech screen, it would show the actual battery voltage. I had never realized before that the big dial on the local status app was not showing the actual battery voltage - maybe it only does this at Absorb setpoint ?
I usually use the Classic DIY remote monitoring , except when I want to write new changes on the Classic not using the MNGP.
The Local Status app has not been developed for many years and has bugs in it I know.
Larry
Second day in a row it hasn't acted up, just went to Float, Absorb was set to 28.4v. Harvested 2.3kw. It's either balancing itself out, or, I haven't had one hiccup since flashing that new firmware. Either way, it's now behaving the way I expected it to from day one. Transition from Bulk to Absorb was spot on again to the Absorb set point, nothing erratic happened down to End Amps of 4a, everything nice and smooth. Was 4 mins 50 seconds in Absorb, today I timed it.
Quote from: Muskoka on February 08, 2024, 04:01:18 PMSecond day in a row it hasn't acted up, just went to Float, Absorb was set to 28.4v. Harvested 2.3kw. It's either balancing itself out, or, I haven't had one hiccup since flashing that new firmware. Either way, it's now behaving the way I expected it to from day one. Transition from Bulk to Absorb was spot on again to the Absorb set point, nothing erratic happened down to End Amps of 4a, everything nice and smooth. Was 4 mins 50 seconds in Absorb, today I timed it.
May depend on how much current is going into your battery. Assuming some cells are way out of balance and shoot up in voltage - they may do that more quickly under a high charge rate compared to if they are charging slower. If your cells do need to balance - they aren't going to do it in 5 minutes . You may be better off setting the end amps to zero and give them half hour to hour to absorb.
Larry
Thanks Larry, I was wondering about that. The last couple days it went to Absorb later in the afternoon, with maybe half the current from the previous failures.
Today it was around 27 amps when it went to Absorb, usually it's around 45'ish amps.
Unsure of what to do. Not going the diy route, no time for that, this battery was expensive enough at $1700, not going back to lead acid, I could send this back, get another, and be in the same situation.
Update.
The Redodo 24v 200ah battery was returned, smooth process through Amazon, Redodo, thanks to both.
That one weak cell on my remaining (2) 6v 370ah lead acid batteries in my 12v system is not coming back, still not registering any specific gravity, so they have been removed. To replace them I've purchased a Antra Power 12v 210ah LiFePO4 battery that has Bluetooth, and low temp protection. So far it is working great. It's sole purpose is to run lights, my internet router 24/7, and maybe the 6 cu ft. fridge in the summer months. The battery is sitting in my battery room, which can get down to 0c at times, so having the heated battery is a plus.
For my 24v system, to replace the Redodo, I've purchased (2) 12v 280ah Eco Worthy LiFePO4 batteries, and a 12v LiFePO4 variable 0-50 amp charger. I spent 10.5 hours yesterday charging both batteries to full (charger set to 40a) with my generartor, they are now installed in series, and ready to go. They do not have Bluetooth, and are not heated, but were on sale at a good price. They are in my main room, so heated of course. If I need to go anywhere in the winter for a few days, my place doesn't have a source of heat, just the woodstove, so I can shut those batteries down, and let the heated Antra Power continue to run my camp. As long as the internet is running, I have acess to my systems, and security cameras, all is good.
Today looks to be starting out cloud free, skies just starting to lighten. Today will be the first day of solar charging for both new battery banks, fingers crossed. The Eco Worthy are conencted to the Classic, the Antra Power is conencted to the Morningstar Tristar MPPT 60.
The 24v system batts were charged yesterday to full, so of course they don't want anything today. Supposed to snow tomorrow so I can draw the batts down some for the next sunny day charge cycle.
Update 2.
I've had a few solar charge days now, and have had zero issues with the new batteries in my 24v and 12v systems.
The (2) 12v 280ah Eco Worthy LiFeP04 batteries that make up my 24v system charge to 28.8v without any of the erratic behaviour I was seeing with the other battery. Charge cycle goes through Bulk, hits Absorb voltage, current decreases, and the system goes to Float when it should. I have since decreased the Bulk/Absorb voltage to 28.4v, but I at least know they can go to 28.8v or higher, without issue. I know they can go to 14.6v, as I charged each battery separately with my Lithium ac charger before putting them in service in my 24v system.
Not Classic related, but will mention for information only. The other battery I purchased for my 12v system, 12v 210ah Antra Power LiFeP04 with BT and heating, also has no problem reaching 14.6v, as witnessed when I fully charged it with my ac charger before putting it in service. I currently have Bulk/Absorb set to 14.2v in the MorningStar Tristar MPPT 60, there's zero issues with that battery when going through the charge cycle.
So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.
Quote from: Muskoka on February 18, 2024, 07:04:05 AMUpdate 2.
So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.
Except for that one battery temperature sense related to battery capacity issue which is presently being fixed.
I will be interested to hear how well the Classic's assessment of state of charge correlates to what the battery BMS thinks it is.
boB
Yes, except for that. :D
Unfortunately the batteries I have connected to the Classic don't have Bluetooth.
Quote from: boB on February 18, 2024, 08:57:24 AMQuote from: Muskoka on February 18, 2024, 07:04:05 AMUpdate 2.
So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.
Except for that one battery temperature sense related to battery capacity issue which is presently being fixed.
I will be interested to hear how well the Classic's assessment of state of charge correlates to what the battery BMS thinks it is.
boB
OK, so now that is also fixed along with a couple of other issues.
http://bob.midniteftp.com/K7IQ/Firmware-Latest/Classic-3800/
There is also release notes if you just want to check that out.
boB
Quote from: boB on March 05, 2024, 04:38:56 PMQuote from: boB on February 18, 2024, 08:57:24 AMQuote from: Muskoka on February 18, 2024, 07:04:05 AMUpdate 2.
So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.
Except for that one battery temperature sense related to battery capacity issue which is presently being fixed.
I will be interested to hear how well the Classic's assessment of state of charge correlates to what the battery BMS thinks it is.
boB
OK, so now that is also fixed along with a couple of other issues.
http://bob.midniteftp.com/K7IQ/Firmware-Latest/Classic-3800/
There is also release notes if you just want to check that out.
boB
Thanks for the update Bob . I put it on my lithium charging Classic so it will be able to run tomorrow when the sun is out again. I am sure it will be good improvement - though the last one worked okay too.
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on March 05, 2024, 07:37:22 PMQuote from: boB on March 05, 2024, 04:38:56 PMQuote from: boB on February 18, 2024, 08:57:24 AMQuote from: Muskoka on February 18, 2024, 07:04:05 AMUpdate 2.
So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.
Except for that one battery temperature sense related to battery capacity issue which is presently being fixed.
I will be interested to hear how well the Classic's assessment of state of charge correlates to what the battery BMS thinks it is.
boB
OK, so now that is also fixed along with a couple of other issues.
http://bob.midniteftp.com/K7IQ/Firmware-Latest/Classic-3800/
There is also release notes if you just want to check that out.
boB
Thanks for the update Bob . I put it on my lithium charging Classic so it will be able to run tomorrow when the sun is out again. I am sure it will be good improvement - though the last one worked okay too.
Larry
Yeah, there were issues with the last version. This one should be much better.
Thank you, Larry for trying it !
I have been running it here in AZ (where the sun shines) for a week or so and it appears to be just fine.
boB
Thank you Bob. I've just downloaded, and will install shortly.
Firmwares flashed without issue. May not get any sun until tomorrow to test.
Wizbandit is reporting that his WB Jr. SOC% is sitting at 0%
Looking into this now
So far, my 200 is OK.
Reading 100% after Absorb to Float transition.
Please lettuce know if you have a problem with this
boB
Mines showing 64%. I'm assuming that it didn't reset after flashing and doing a VMM, cause I was in the 70% range yesterday. I flashed this morning. I've been using my computer today with no sun, so 64% seems reasonable, if I was in the 70's yesterday.
I would think after flashing and a VMM that it would reset the SOC, but it doesn't look like it did.
Quote from: Muskoka on March 06, 2024, 12:05:47 PMMines showing 64%. I'm assuming that it didn't reset after flashing and doing a VMM, cause I was in the 70% range yesterday. I flashed this morning. I've been using my computer today with no sun, so 64% seems reasonable, if I was in the 70's yesterday.
I would think after flashing and a VMM that it would reset the SOC, but it doesn't look like it did.
My SOC is at 100% now as they are full . I will see if it tracks down okay tonight. I just updated the Hawkes Bay the other day too and it is on the same shunt so will see how they compare.
Larry
I did not make it reset the amp-hours remaining when doing a VMM. The battery should be around the same SOC% that it was before updating the firmware.
Poor Wizbandit is seeing 0% SOC but he did not see a battery type choice when he started it up, he says.
At first I thought this might have had something to do with the LITHIUM battery capacity AH lock-out with battery temperature... I then did a VMM and changed to lithium (I am using flooded right now) and watched the SOC% drop down to 99% then 98% and then back up to 99% then 100% while in Absorb and Bulk MPPT so I guess that's not it.
I thought for a moment that it counted DOWN but not UP but I don't think that is the case now. This was only doing a few amps so it took a while to go up and down is all along with the efficiency setting.
boB
Quote from: boB on March 06, 2024, 05:58:36 PMI did not make it reset the amp-hours remaining when doing a VMM. The battery should be around the same SOC% that it was before updating the firmware.
Poor Wizbandit is seeing 0% SOC but he did not see a battery type choice when he started it up, he says.
At first I thought this might have had something to do with the LITHIUM battery capacity AH lock-out with battery temperature... I then did a VMM and changed to lithium (I am using flooded right now) and watched the SOC% drop down to 99% then 98% and then back up to 99% then 100% while in Absorb and Bulk MPPT so I guess that's not it.
I thought for a moment that it counted DOWN but not UP but I don't think that is the case now. This was only doing a few amps so it took a while to go up and down is all along with the efficiency setting.
boB
I thought I saw the SOC at 100% today but now it is 0% . I wonder if I was looking at a different Classic today or if it changed ? But now I am sure it is showing 0% SOC. I did not see the battery choice either when it started up after firmware update and it kept my settings. I did the VMM just to make sure since you had mentioned it - and then I picked lithium and put in all my settings again.
Larry
Well, that would be disconcerning...
You may be seeing what Wizbandit saw ? What flavor of Classic is this ? 150 ? 200 ? 250 ?
If it is Lithium, try resetting to Flooded and see if it works normally if you could.
I am not seeing that but I will re-do tomorrow with a larger swing of Amp-Hours.
Sorry Larry. Kind of embarrassing to have this happen.
Waiting also for what Muskoka has to say.
boB
PS, if you start from main STATUS menu and then go to the RFR screen, you will see at the middle bottom, a number which is anywhere from CHEM 01 to CHEM 04 ....... 04 being Lithium, 03 is AGM, 02 is GEL and 01 is good old FLA
Quote from: boB on March 06, 2024, 07:42:03 PMWell, that would be disconcerning...
You may be seeing what Wizbandit saw ? What flavor of Classic is this ? 150 ? 200 ? 250 ?
If it is Lithium, try resetting to Flooded and see if it works normally if you could.
I am not seeing that but I will re-do tomorrow with a larger swing of Amp-Hours.
Sorry Larry. Kind of embarrassing to have this happen.
Waiting also for what Muskoka has to say.
boB
PS, if you start from main STATUS menu and then go to the RFR screen, you will see at the middle bottom, a number which is anywhere from CHEM 01 to CHEM 04 ....... 04 being Lithium, 03 is AGM, 02 is GEL and 01 is good old FLA
I didn't see your PS until just now .
Anyway - was there a way to change from Lithium to Lead Acid without doing VMM ?
I couldn't find a way to do that so I did another VMM and selected Flooded or whatever it says, and the SOC was not showing since I did the VMM I guess. It shows 100 flashing on the Whizbang screen for both Flooded and Lithium after the VMM. So I guess I have to wait until tomorrow when it fills up again to see if it goes to 100% , and if it drops back to 0 SOC at night . But I looked through the data logging program and it showed 0% SOC all day and since I did update last night.
No problem on that issue - that is why we test the new firmwares !
Is the default for Whizbang capacity set at 400 ? That either stuck through all the VMM or just coincidence that is same as my battery capacity.
Larry
Thanks Larry !
400 AH is the default.
To stop the flashing 100%, after a cold turn-on, that just means it can't trust that SOC% or Remaining AH. So, the next Absorb cycle, when it goes to Float, now we KNOW that the battery is 100% SOC full because you programmed the "timed" Absorb cycle correctly. Right ? Then it goes solid.
When it starts to degrade its accuracy it starts to fall over. We have to stand it up again sometimes. Automatically, hopefully...
Now, assuming the efficiency and Absorb voltage are set correctly, it should be good for a few charge/discharge cycles on its own. Just nudge it towards 100% once in an appropriate while if the AH Remaining and capacity are in general, correct., too. Lots of stuff to do there but reports say it works, so that's good.
You can change the type I believe in the MNGP's Modbus editor. Are you familiar with that hidden menu?
boB
This morning the SOC is showing up - so I guess I wasn't seeing things yesterday. It seems to be close to the same as the Hawkes Bay at 90% but that may be coincidence. Could this be tied to if the Classic is charging ? Because last night it was dark when I noticed it at 0%, now this morning it is showing 90% . So whatever you did, you certainly made the Classic more efficient since it went for 0 % last night to 90% this morning with barely any charging !
I haven't ever used the hidden menu modbus editor.
Larry
On my way home now, should be getting close to 100%.
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on March 07, 2024, 09:46:52 AMThis morning the SOC is showing up - so I guess I wasn't seeing things yesterday. It seems to be close to the same as the Hawkes Bay at 90% but that may be coincidence. Could this be tied to if the Classic is charging ? Because last night it was dark when I noticed it at 0%, now this morning it is showing 90% . So whatever you did, you certainly made the Classic more efficient since it went for 0 % last night to 90% this morning with barely any charging !
I haven't ever used the hidden menu modbus editor.
Larry
OK, great ! I set mine to Lithium just to see if I could get it to show 0% SOC but it was working as correct as I would have expected.
Over night, the WB Jr. was showing a -1.0 to -1.1 amp discharge and started out at 99% at 7:30 last night. This morning at around 7 AM it showed 87% SOC (87 AH Remaining out of 100AH) so that is just about perfect.
So, you and Wizbandit saw the 0% but then it changed. Not sure why that would be but...
Let me know if it keeps being approximately correct.
Now, to change the battery chemistry type from 01 (FLA) to 04 (Lithium) go into the TWEAKS menu and hit MORE one or two times. THEN press and hold LEFT-ARROW key and tap the MORE button (upper-right soft key) TWICE and the Modbus editor should show up.
On the left side is the modbus register (register address technically) and on the right is the data at that address.
Next, we have to navigate to the address corresponding to the battery type 4205. Just press the UP ARROW key until the left number (register address) shows 4205. If you are type FLA right now, it should show 01. You want to change it to 04 for lithium. Just hit the RIGHT ARROW to highlight the DATA field and change that 01 to a 04.
Then hold down the SHIFT soft key while you press ENTER and the screen should show that it saved the data to the Classic, so that it remembers.
Simple as that. Hopefully.
Lettuce know how that goes.
boB
Was at 47% this morning, full sun so far today, at 89% now, just hit 4kw for the day so far, all looks normal to me. Just noticed, I haven't plugged my temp sensor back in though, don't know if that has any effect.
Quote from: Muskoka on March 07, 2024, 11:40:25 AMWas at 47% this morning, full sun so far today, at 89% now, just hit 4kw for the day so far, all looks normal to me.
That's a great sign ! Thanks Muskoka !
boB
Just finished Absorb, went to Float, no issue. Soc at 100%, will keep any eye on it for any abnormalities.
Bob - it is night here now - and the SOC seems to be working okay and is tracking the same as the Hawkes Bay.
Maybe it just needed a couple days to get in sync for some reason - at least no zero percent.
I went back and looked at SOC data history and it seemed to leave zero % and go back to 90 something last night when I did the VMM a couple times when I was checking Flooded and then VMM again to go back to Lithium.
Larry
Soc reading looks to be fine at my end, nothing odd to report.
Yea the wbjr does a nice accurate job . Better than my pack BMS . I have two they are usually only a 1% or2% off from each other I usually use them to check my Kong BMS to ensure they are not falling off . They usually do.
Particularly the older generations.
That should have been Jkong or Jkbms auto correct is bother some at times
Thank you Mahendra !
boB
74 degrees in Phoenix AZ today. :)
Grey and -12c (10.4f) with the wind chill here. :(
Suppose we're lucky, should be 2 ft of snow out there still this time of year.
20240310_111410~3.jpg
Sure looks cold there, Muskoka ! Brrrr... That is why I am working down here in AZ for the moment.
So, new information on this latest Classic beta code. MNGP 3798 and Classic 3800...
The Classic has been CRASHING... So far it appears to be only the Classic 200 and when the system is using FOLLOW-ME.
So far, ENDING AMPS has been above zero amps and also possibly ONLY at night.
Please let me know if you guys are using Follow-Me. My single Classic 200 has been working great here UNTIL I plugged the F-Me cable from its SLAVE to its MASTER jack and F-Me was turned ON in TWEAKS.
So far TWO beta testers, including Wizbandit in Florida have had 4 Classics in a crashed state when they woke up. More than one time for my friend here in Phoenix. His Classic 150 has NOT crashed yet. Not sure why that would make ANY difference at all since the code is 99.9% the same and nothing different in code areas that should affect this. Just voltage and current limits.
So be aware. This is why we have betas. Thank you for the help here !
BTW, there was a big solar flare this week. Maybe that was it ? LoL
boB
Sorry, I have not updated my classics since the last rev 2193.
Quote from: mahendra on March 28, 2024, 02:16:55 PMSorry, I have not updated my classics since the last rev 2193.
Oh, OK. Good. Don't update it with this code.
Are you running multiple (2+) Classics using Follow me ?
That appears to be the problem here at least. So far as I can tell.
Thanks,
boB
Yes Bob that would be correct classic 150 and classic 200 ,
Both with their own wbjr (a bit cropped on one shunt but working)and follow me.
Quote from: mahendra on March 30, 2024, 07:43:37 AMYes Bob that would be correct classic 150 and classic 200 ,
Both with their own wbjr (a bit cropped on one shunt but working)and follow me.
Thank you Mahendra. Are you using Ending Amps ?
I thought that it was only Follow-Me that was causing the problem but my 200 crashed with F-Me turned OFF but the cable still plugged into itself.
boB
Bob , my single Classic 150 has been running fine with this code.
I don't think I want to try turning on Follow Me to test it out !
Larry
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on March 30, 2024, 08:07:29 PMBob , my single Classic 150 has been running fine with this code.
I don't think I want to try turning on Follow Me to test it out !
Larry
Larry, I think this MAY only be Classic 200s actually. I have not seen or heard of a 150 with the issue.
Thank you for testing! My 200 in AZ has ran fine for a couple weeks until I set it up with its F-Me cable plugged into itself and also raised the Ending Amps from zero.
Weird ! It can take just a byte or two increase or decrease in code size to cause a crash like this.
I will check but I am not sure if the 200 and 150 have different code sizes.
Could also be an interrupt walking through the code in time and in just the right spot, bam ! It goes into a fault. I have been very fortunate in past years for something random-ish like this to happen. I have seen it many times but not in any beta I have sent out that I remember.
We will find out what is rotten in Denmark !
boB
Quote from: boB on March 30, 2024, 01:21:33 PMQuote from: mahendra on March 30, 2024, 07:43:37 AMYes Bob that would be correct classic 150 and classic 200 ,
Both with their own wbjr (a bit cropped on one shunt but working)and follow me.
Thank you Mahendra. Are you using Ending Amps ?
I thought that it was only Follow-Me that was causing the problem but my 200 crashed with F-Me turned OFF but the cable still plugged into itself.
boB
Yes boB . Using end amps definitely.
My Classic 150 Lite just suffered the "0" percent Soc. No idea why, went to check the Classic Monitor app on my phone and it shows 0% Soc, confirmed on the Classic itself. Ideas, how do I get the true state of the batts back, wait until next full charge cycle?
Should add, the bank isn't actually zero, should be around 50%.
Another thing that's odd, the Android app reports the Total Capacity of the bank to also be "0", I just checked in the Classic, and it's showing the correct amount, 280ah.
Did a VMM back to Flooded, reprogrammed the controller, all numbers reporting correctly now, of course the SOC isn't accurate, but it's working. Looks like Monday before the sun returns.
Quote from: Muskoka on April 12, 2024, 06:17:35 AMDid a VMM back to Flooded, reprogrammed the controller, all numbers reporting correctly now, of course the SOC isn't accurate, but it's working. Looks like Monday before the sun returns.
yes, nothing is 100%, But that accuracy takes time to calibrate with any SOC.
Might take some tweaking around but it can be achieved
That's why I mentioned no sun till Monday, once I'm back to 100% after a full charge it will sort itself out. At least it always has since I installed this CC close to 15 years ago, time flies. ;)
Hopefully this 0% soc "bug" can be sorted out so we can set "Lithium" after a VMM. Funny, or I suppose not so funny, how it worked fine for quite some time, well over a month with the updated firmware, then acted up out of nowhere.
I had the 0% SOC when I first installed the lithium firmware, but it went back to normal the next day and has been fine ever since.
Larry
This is weird. I know of one Classic 150 that still shows 0% SOC with this newer 3798 and 3800 version software nearby here in AZ. I'm looking into it but so far I do not see a reason. Probably just 150s then ? That does not make sense either. Most of the software is the same for all genres of Classics except for current and voltage limits pretty much.
Muskoka, please keep us posted, especially on Monday.
It is sunny here in the Phoenix area but supposed to be 92 today.
boB
Will do, ya it's odd because the soc has been fine since I installed the new firmware Feb 5th.
I'm back on Flooded, do you want me to switch back to Lithium again?
Quote from: Muskoka on April 12, 2024, 12:05:31 PMWill do, ya it's odd because the soc has been fine since I installed the new firmware March 6th.
I'm back on Flooded, do you want me to switch back to Lithium again?
Well, it shouldn't make any difference but sure. Give it a try. Let's see if battery type matters
Got sun today, soc not acting correct, total ah of the bank was set correctly, then reverted back to 400ah on it's own.
I've switched back to Flooded, everything seems stable, working better, in that mode. At least when I set the bank ah to 280 it stays there. It's more important to me that I know, or at least have an accurate count of ah in, ah out, so I'll leave it on Flooded for now. I can't use my system blindly, I need accurate soc, ah counts, in, out.
OK thank you Muskoka.
My 200 here is in Lithium mode and SOC appears to run fine.
The capacity is set to 100 Amp-Hours and has not changed back to 400.
Weird stuff happening but SOC "should" not change the way it works.
Will figure it out before we release it.
I really appreciate your help.
boB
Hi boB,
When on the boat this winter I updated to the lithium code on my 150s. I did the VMM. Since then SOC remains steadfastly at 0. Battery capacity is correct at 440Ah but SOC will not change from 0. Everything else seems to work correctly as far as I could see.
Now off the boat and back home.
Mike
Quote from: Mike W on April 28, 2024, 11:31:23 AMHi boB,
When on the boat this winter I updated to the lithium code on my 150s. I did the VMM. Since then SOC remains steadfastly at 0. Battery capacity is correct at 440Ah but SOC will not change from 0. Everything else seems to work correctly as far as I could see.
Now off the boat and back home.
Mike
Maybe try another VMM and see if it changes the next time batteries fill up.
My 150 had the 0 percent but then it went back to normal functioning. I am just speculating I had done a few VMM and maybe that helped fix it.
Larry
If VMM does not work you might want to check the wbjr.
I had one that kinda failed but appears to work .
It is on one of these threads
Well, I have seen this SOC = 0% on one other Classic 150. In fact, it is on a friend's Classic near me. I have NO idea WHY it is on that 150.
But NOW after seeing this, there must be an issue with some 150s.
But the code change has nothing special for the 150 vs. 200 and 250 Classics other than voltage and current limits.
Very perplexing. This can be figured out but I guess I need to trade my friend's Classic 150 for another one so that I can dig much deeper into why this is.
I even tried the secret method of telling the 150 to go to 100% SOC but going to the WB Jr. status menu, pressing Soft-Left key (MORE) and holding down the LET-ARROW key while then holding down the ENTER key. I see the LCD go kind of gray like it is supposed to do but the SOC% did NOT change from 0%.
You might at least TRY that but I have a feeling it is going to do the same thing as my friend's Classic 150.
boB