New LiFePO4 installation charge parameters

[ClassicCrazy]

Thank you Larry !

The Classic should not need any jumpers on it.  In fact, the BOOT jumper will keep it from booting.

If the fans and the 3 inside LEDs did not come up, then it either needs the boot jumper removed or it got as far as erasing the main firmware (but not the bootloader!) and just needs to be tried again.

I had to try a few times turning the Classic off and on after the program says to turn it off and on.  It should connect within 1 to 2 seconds otherwise you have to turn it off and on again.

I'm not sure why it is taking a few times to do that ?  As I remembered, Matt, the programmer at the time, had taken my original Classic update program and made it work way better.  It's Windows so I don't know the real deep internals of that.  Just the basic USB interfacing which at the time, was quite a challenge for me.

Thanks for taking the time to try again.  Some day, I should make it out to your place and we can play.

boB

Bob
I just hooked up the Classic that was having problems . I turned it on and it just started up normally with the last firmware I put in it.The MNGP sent data to the Classic quickly and normally.
 I am reloading the new lithium test firmware now.
I guess that Classic just needed an overnight rest for some reason !
The reload - same as I used yesterday- went all okay , no problems .
My only guess is that yesterday I did something out of sequence with the updater - though I know I did the Classic first and then MNGP.
Alls well that ends well.
I may try to update the new Classic that I swapped out and is running my charging now. Later that is !
At least I don't have a dead Classic any longer.
Larry
 

[Muskoka]

Another test day, although it was pretty cloudy with the odd sun window.

Absorb 28.0v
Absorb time 30 mins
End Amps 4a
Float 27.0v

Battery is happily in Float, nothing odd to report in the charge cycle. It once again transitioned to Absorb right on the set point. Nice gradual decline in current to reach End Amps, took a few minutes, transition to Float.

1.8kw harvested.

[boB]

Bob
I just hooked up the Classic that was having problems . I turned it on and it just started up normally with the last firmware I put in it.The MNGP sent data to the Classic quickly and normally.
 I am reloading the new lithium test firmware now.
I guess that Classic just needed an overnight rest for some reason !
The reload - same as I used yesterday- went all okay , no problems .
My only guess is that yesterday I did something out of sequence with the updater - though I know I did the Classic first and then MNGP.
Alls well that ends well.
I may try to update the new Classic that I swapped out and is running my charging now. Later that is !
At least I don't have a dead Classic any longer.
Larry
 

Excellent Larry !!  Great !

The program  first wants to see the Classic USB is connectable so that is why the Classic is on at first.

Then, it has to update the Classic within the first 3 seconds that the Classic comes alive.

The program sends out a short string of data to the Classic as soon as that USB comes alive when you power it on again.  That data makes the Classic erase the code it is about to update with.  If the USB connection isn't made during that first 3 seconds, the word doesn't happen and the Classic doesn't see it and the Classic just boots normally.

So, there's something weird with the timing.  BUT as long as the program saw the Classic the first time, it will eventually program the Classic but the user must turn the Classic off and on maybe a few times so that the program catches. 

It MAY be also that the Classic has to be turned off for a certain minimum amount of time so that the 3.3V on the processor a bit deader than it would if it were only turned off for a second or two.  I should look at the internal power supply to see if there is any correlation.

boB

[Muskoka]

I think we've done a good job of diagnosing what's going on with this battery. I came across this post on the diysolarforum, and this persons issue is exactly what I'm seeing with this battery.

It can't get close to the "rated bulk/absorb/balance/100% soc" recommended voltage, without the BMS disconnecting.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/high-cell-voltage-disconnect-issue.31536/

This is why I was adamant to test this battery at it's recommended charge voltage, it's needs to be able to perform at the recommended voltage, or it's of no use to anyone.

I don't want a battery that can't reach a recommended level, and I'm not going to lower the voltage to mask a problem. Again, whether that is best practice for extended life of the battery can be debated, but it has to at least be able to achieve the recommended levels, or it's defective, in my view, and needs to be replaced with something that can.

As we all know, these batteries aren't cheap. You need to get what you paid for. I guess my only concern is, are all these off the shelf ready to go LiFePO4 batteries going to perform the same, and people just accept it by lowering the voltage to accomodate something that is substandard, doesn't live up to what it was advertised to do.

The only reason these batteries can't reach rated spec is either the BMS is faulty, or the cells are out of whack balance wise, neither case is acceptable. Not at this price point.

[ClassicCrazy]

I think we've done a good job of diagnosing what's going on with this battery. I came across this post on the diysolarforum, and this persons issue is exactly what I'm seeing with this battery.

It can't get close to the "rated bulk/absorb/balance/100% soc" recommended voltage, without the BMS disconnecting.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/high-cell-voltage-disconnect-issue.31536/

This is why I was adamant to test this battery at it's recommended charge voltage, it's needs to be able to perform at the recommended voltage, or it's of no use to anyone.

I don't want a battery that can't reach a recommended level, and I'm not going to lower the voltage to mask a problem. Again, whether that is best practice for extended life of the battery can be debated, but it has to at least be able to achieve the recommended levels, or it's defective, in my view, and needs to be replaced with something that can.

As we all know, these batteries aren't cheap. You need to get what you paid for. I guess my only concern is, are all these off the shelf ready to go LiFePO4 batteries going to perform the same, and people just accept it by lowering the voltage to accomodate something that is substandard, doesn't live up to what it was advertised to do.

The only reason these batteries can't reach rated spec is either the BMS is faulty, or the cells are out of whack balance wise, neither case is acceptable. Not at this price point.

The battery you have is at the bottom tier of price point so you shouldn't expect too much. Especially with a bms that has no monitoring of individual cells  or changing the setpoint ability.
I don't think it is unreasonable to tweak settings a little bit to compensate for what doesn't match up. But yours is way off and the manufacturers recommendations are way off too.
Reading voltages by bms or meters or charge controllers are all slightly variable.
Larry

[ClassicCrazy]

I was just watching the new Lithium test firmware for the Classic since I wanted to dial it in for the voltage offset. I was watching what my batteries bms were reporting ( all four of them) and I was looking at the Local Status app connected to the Classic . So I wasn't looking at a meter actually on the battery or on the Classic.
What I noticed and didn't realize before is that the battery voltage me on Local Status app when in Absorb was not showing me the actual battery voltage seen by the Classic - it was showing me the Absorb setpoint. If I went to the Local Status app Voltage offset tweak on the config Tech screen, it would show the actual battery voltage. I had never realized before that the big dial on the local status app was not showing the actual battery voltage - maybe it only does this at Absorb setpoint ? 
I usually use the Classic DIY remote monitoring , except when I want to write new changes on the Classic not using the MNGP.
The Local Status app has not been developed for many years and has bugs in it I know.
Larry

[Muskoka]

Second day in a row it hasn't acted up, just went to Float, Absorb was set to 28.4v. Harvested 2.3kw. It's either balancing itself out, or, I haven't had one hiccup since flashing that new firmware. Either way, it's now behaving the way I expected it to from day one. Transition from Bulk to Absorb was spot on again to the Absorb set point, nothing erratic happened down to End Amps of 4a, everything nice and smooth. Was 4 mins 50 seconds in Absorb, today I timed it.

[ClassicCrazy]

Second day in a row it hasn't acted up, just went to Float, Absorb was set to 28.4v. Harvested 2.3kw. It's either balancing itself out, or, I haven't had one hiccup since flashing that new firmware. Either way, it's now behaving the way I expected it to from day one. Transition from Bulk to Absorb was spot on again to the Absorb set point, nothing erratic happened down to End Amps of 4a, everything nice and smooth. Was 4 mins 50 seconds in Absorb, today I timed it.

May depend on how much current is going into your battery. Assuming some cells are way out of balance and shoot up in voltage - they may do that more quickly under a high charge rate compared to if they are charging slower.  If your cells do need to balance - they aren't going to do it in 5 minutes . You may be better off setting the end amps to zero and give them half hour to hour to absorb.
Larry

[Muskoka]

Thanks Larry, I was wondering about that. The last couple days it went to Absorb later in the afternoon, with maybe half the current from the previous failures. 

Today it was around 27 amps when it went to Absorb, usually it's around 45'ish amps. 

Unsure of what to do. Not going the diy route, no time for that, this battery was expensive enough at $1700, not going back to lead acid, I could send this back, get another, and be in the same situation.

[Muskoka]

Update.

The Redodo 24v 200ah battery was returned, smooth process through Amazon, Redodo, thanks to both.

That one weak cell on my remaining (2) 6v 370ah lead acid batteries in my 12v system is not coming back, still not registering any specific gravity, so they have been removed. To replace them I've purchased a Antra Power 12v 210ah LiFePO4 battery that has Bluetooth, and low temp protection. So far it is working great. It's sole purpose is to run lights, my internet router 24/7, and maybe the 6 cu ft. fridge in the summer months. The battery is sitting in my battery room, which can get down to 0c at times, so having the heated battery is a plus.

For my 24v system, to replace the Redodo, I've purchased (2) 12v 280ah Eco Worthy LiFePO4 batteries, and a 12v LiFePO4 variable 0-50 amp charger. I spent 10.5 hours yesterday charging both batteries to full (charger set to 40a) with my generartor, they are now installed in series, and ready to go. They do not have Bluetooth, and are not heated, but were on sale at a good price. They are in my main room, so heated of course. If I need to go anywhere in the winter for a few days, my place doesn't have a source of heat, just the woodstove, so I can shut those batteries down, and let the heated Antra Power continue to run my camp. As long as the internet is running, I have acess to my systems, and security cameras, all is good.

Today looks to be starting out cloud free, skies just starting to lighten. Today will be the first day of solar charging for both new battery banks, fingers crossed. The Eco Worthy are conencted to the Classic, the Antra Power is conencted to the Morningstar Tristar MPPT 60.

The 24v system batts were charged yesterday to full, so of course they don't want anything today. Supposed to snow tomorrow so I can draw the batts down some for the next sunny day charge cycle.

[Muskoka]

Update 2.

I've had a few solar charge days now, and have had zero issues with the new batteries in my 24v and 12v systems.

The (2) 12v 280ah Eco Worthy LiFeP04 batteries that make up my 24v system charge to 28.8v without any of the erratic behaviour I was seeing with the other battery. Charge cycle goes through Bulk, hits Absorb voltage, current decreases, and the system goes to Float when it should. I have since decreased the Bulk/Absorb voltage to 28.4v, but I at least know they can go to 28.8v or higher, without issue. I know they can go to 14.6v, as I charged each battery separately with my Lithium ac charger before putting them in service in my 24v system.

Not Classic related, but will mention for information only. The other battery I purchased for my 12v system, 12v 210ah Antra Power LiFeP04 with BT and heating, also has no problem reaching 14.6v, as witnessed when I fully charged it with my ac charger before putting it in service. I currently have Bulk/Absorb set to 14.2v in the MorningStar Tristar MPPT 60, there's zero issues with that battery when going through the charge cycle.

So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.

[boB]

Update 2.

So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.

Except for that one battery temperature sense related to battery capacity issue which is presently being fixed.

I will be interested to hear how well the Classic's assessment of state of charge correlates to what the battery BMS thinks it is.

boB

[Muskoka]

Yes, except for that.

Unfortunately the batteries I have connected to the Classic don't have Bluetooth.

[boB]

Update 2.

So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.

Except for that one battery temperature sense related to battery capacity issue which is presently being fixed.

I will be interested to hear how well the Classic's assessment of state of charge correlates to what the battery BMS thinks it is.

boB

OK, so now that is also fixed along with a couple of other issues.

http://bob.midniteftp.com/K7IQ/Firmware-Latest/Classic-3800/

There is also release notes if you just want to check that out.

boB

[ClassicCrazy]

Update 2.

So, for now I'm all set, everything seems to be working as it should.

Except for that one battery temperature sense related to battery capacity issue which is presently being fixed.

I will be interested to hear how well the Classic's assessment of state of charge correlates to what the battery BMS thinks it is.

boB

OK, so now that is also fixed along with a couple of other issues.

http://bob.midniteftp.com/K7IQ/Firmware-Latest/Classic-3800/

There is also release notes if you just want to check that out.

boB

Thanks for the update Bob . I put it on my lithium charging Classic so it will be able to run tomorrow when the sun is out again. I am sure it will be good improvement - though the last one worked okay too.
Larry