Lite 150 stopped charging

[TomW]

Moby;

I don't want to brow beat you over this but....

You MUST find any wiring errors before you do anything. Period. End Quote!.

Otherwise you will waste a lot of time chasing your tail.

You cannot fix a wiring problem any other way than fixing the error.

Just trying to save you some frustration.

Tom

[WizBandit]

Replace your PV Breakers. Square-D QO breakers are only rated @ 48VDC, not 49Volts DC, not 50volts DC. It sounds like internal arcing has damaged the internal contacts. If I'm correct and you have 3 x 24V 72 cell modules you have way more than 48VDC on those breakers.
Just recently started "flipping them" I bet while replacing the PWM CCs and now trouble-shooting the Classics.

Any statement of "Its been working" will only get me to ask "How about now?"

Buy these and be done with it:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=78&productCatName=Combiners&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=4&act=p

OR:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=77&productCatName=Combiners&productCat_ID=9&sortOrder=5&act=pc

I'm very surprised none of you guys picked up on this...

[mobywile]

OK folks.  No breakers tripping, no voltages above the threshold that I can find, anywhere.  I have checked every wire connection and found them to be OK.  I have NEVER had a breaker trip and I just went out and touched them - they are cool as can be.  My question is, if there is internal arcing, why haven't they tripped?  I don't have an E after my name, but I have quite a lot of experience troubleshooting system faults - electrically.  Those guys you might have me hire very often call ME when they have a bug they can't find.  So, please, assume I am doing everything I can to get through this.  Oh, and I checked with my first customer who bought a Trace 4024 from me back in the day.  She has never had an array breaker trip or fail.  21 years on line. 
In full sun at 10AM, I have 44.2 volts in from the panels - at both Lites.  Battery voltage is 12.9 volts at both Lites.
I am sorry, if I sound unhappy, but I have been trying to fix this for two weeks now.  I installed this guy 0n 8/7/2013 and it has putted right along since then.  Then, on 1/20/2015, I added the second Lite and turned on more panels.  I have  8x on the Lite that is working, and 6x connected to the other one.  All went fine for a week or so, and then the original Lite began remaining at rest longer than the new one.  When it came up, it seemed to work fine. 
I now have the local app installed and wired to the older Lite.  Now I'll try to figure that out...
Back to school...

[Halfcrazy]

Moby
What bothers me is the Same voltage on both inputs. Try turning the mode off on one and see if the voltages still agree? Basically you need to see if there is cross talk or not.

[WizBandit]

Also, can we get pictures of the inside of the Square-D Branch Circuit panel you are using as a combiner box?
I would be assuming you are using the Neutral Bar as the common combiner for the PV Array Negatives?
And I assume by your description you are using the LINE-1 lug as an output and LINE-2 lug as an output?
and I assume you know in those breaker boxes every other breaker on each side alternates from L1 to L2.
If so this in itself can cause one array to be on the wrong charge controller if we don't pay attention because what you will do is have combined PV Inputs to the Classics and already have a common battery connection. Makes it hard for the Classics to Independently track their own MPP as one makes an adjustment and the other sees a change and it Tries to correct as well.

When you take a picture, put a wrap of blue electrical tape on all the wires on ARRAY#1 and red electrical tape on all wires on ARRAY#2 

Once I get a picture and ask a few more questions I will tell you an easy way to measure the Isc of each of the PV strings one at a time and you can see if they are working.  This will eliminate upstream problems.

[Vic]

I love this!  I have 3, 24v, 180w panels in series - 5A output each.  The "string" is wired to the input side of a 20A Square D QO breaker, which I use as a disconnect   ...   

OK,   couple of things are difficult to understand.  So is it on the newest Classic Lite that you have this/these strings of three of those newish 180 Watt PVs?  The string of three of these PV SHOULD have a string Vmp of about 108 V.  Would expect that with no load,  this string configuration would have a Voc of over 140 V,  especially with your coolish temperatures.

Another confusion on my part is that you have mentioned that the newest Lite has 5 PVs on it,  so the only possible  working configuration is all five in parallel ...  am confused.

And completely agree that you really should upgrade to Real Combiners,  with one MNEPV circuit breaker for each and every string of PVs   ...  have been biting my tongue,  resisting saying that.   This ability to reliably disconnect every string,  and then methodically turn on each string individually should help much in diagnosis.

FWIW,  Good Luck,   Vic

[WizBandit]

This is almost funny.  I was checking voltage on the at the array in buses, which are "completely separated.  Almost.  I have an old Cruising Equipment Amp Hour + which I have used forever.  Ever wire one of those things?  Very messy.  Anyhow, the signal wire that reads array input is connected to both of them.  It was giving me the same voltage reading on both buses.  Disconnected it and it went away.

I looked up the wiring for what I think is your Cruising brand meter, is this it?

Red = +12v (jumped to blue)
Blue = +12v from battery #1 (2 amp fuse)
Violet = +12v from battery #2 (2 amp fuse)
black = ground at small screw on bottom of shunt
Orange = Battery #1 twisted pair to top of shunt
Green = Battery #1 twisted pair to bottom of shunt
Yellow = Battery #2 twisted pair to top of shunt
Brown = Battery #2 twisted pair tp bottom of shunt
White = +12 volt for back lighting insturment

The shunt breaks the ground from both batteries with the ground lead from each battery going to the top of each section of the shunt (the split part of the shunt) and the bottom of the shunt (combined section of the shunt) going to the negative bus.

How is it you have it connected to the monitor the "PV current"   It looks to be a battery current meter...

[dgd]

Mobywile,

When there is no PV input connection to a classic the input terminals will always show a voltage. This is normal, the classic is designed to do this. It's usually somewhat below the battery voltage.
Can I suggest you disconnect the PV input cables from the suspicious classic then see if you see a voltage there?
If this is lower than what you measure now then the array is probably connected ok.

With two classics charging the same battery bank they are never equally balanced when it comes to providing the charge current.
I have often seen this where one classic does the charging in absorb and float and nothing comes from the other. In bulkmppt they should both be pushing all that can into the bank.

Followme is simply forcing both classics into the same charge state. It does not mean both will provide equal or similar charge current or a ratio depending on available PV current for each classic

Anyway just some thoughts..

Dgd

[Vic]

And I assume by your description you are using the LINE-1 lug as an output and LINE-2 lug as an output?
and I assume you know in those breaker boxes every other breaker on each side alternates from L1 to L2.
If so this in itself can cause one array to be on the wrong charge controller if we don't pay attention because what you will do is have combined PV Inputs to the Classics and already have a common battery connection. Makes it hard for the Classics to Independently track their own MPP as one makes an adjustment and the other sees a change and it Tries to correct as well.

A mobywile quote from Post #7,   "   I have 3 panels wired in a series string into a Square D QO 2-slot, 4-circuit breaker panel.  So, 2 strings on 3 racks on one ground mount.  Each string has a 20A QO breaker as a disconnect   ..."

WhizBandit,  this is a very good observation,  and with breakers installed (especially decades ago),  this alternation is covered,  IIRC.

This might well be much or all of the problem.

PWM CCs can tolerate multiple controllers on the same PV array,  I believe.

YES !!  Photos of the existing Combiners would be very helpful.

AND,  as WhizBandit stated above,  moby,  you really DO need to update the Combiners,  with individual circuit breakers for each and every string,  for safety,  if for no other reason  (this includes any "strings" of one PV).

And the possible arching that Whiz referred to was that possibly caused when using the under V rated QO breakers as switches,  not when tripping - I believe.

Was resisting getting on my tired old rant about the QO breakers being rated for 48.00 V MAXIMUM,  not nominal.  PV strings are current limited,  but,  still,   QO breakers as PV breakers with Vocs above 48 V could be a problem.   And moby has invested a considerable amount in the update of his PV system.  Modern Combiners  are only a small,  additional expense.  But well worth it for safety and diagnostic convenience.     Opinions,   guesses,    Vic

[mobywile]

Wow, what a day!  I lost the DSL repeater tower earlier today.  Seems to be fixed now...
So, I did up this nice post complete with pictures and all and it wouldn't go.  Too big.  I have other issues with my picture management files right now.
SO, apologies to all who saw that  I misstated my string wiring.  They are in PARALLEL, not series.  I may never live this down. 
Sorry to send everyone down the wrong road.
The working Lite has 2 strings of 3 panels plus a string of 2 panels.  The non-working Lite is fed by 2 strings of 3 panels.  I hope this clears some ground.
Now, let me see.  Wizbandit, I have one of the original Amp Hour+2 units.  Hand-lettered serial number.  It monitors source and battery.  Has a little trouble with the new system, but it gives me some useful info.  I removed the parallel wiring that sensed the input voltages because they were a possible bridge between Lites.  No connection now. 
You were correct that I am using a common neutral in my 2-breaker disconnect panel.  L1 and L2 are used for the 2 strings through that panel.  The panels are dedicated to one controller - no split signals.
Now, Halfcrazy.  MNGP observation of inputs:  Lite1)Volts in 30.2, Battery voltage 13.6, Amps in 94.5;  Lite 2)Volts in 40.0, Battery voltage 13.4, Amps in 0.0.  These were recorded as fast as I could change addresses on the MNGP.
Tom, I completely agree.  These are the types of bugs that I usually can find.  Other, less seasoned, sparkies find me when they want a fresh idea.  Not workin' this time, yet.
Vic.  I led you astray.  I have all these changes coming; the combiners, DC breakers ( I have a box full of DINrail stuff just waiting for a cause), 24v system upgrade, and new SW inverters.  Just imagine if I did all that and had to find this.  I would be dying...  I have the steep learning curve right now. 
I have the Local App installed, mostly, and am interested in how it will help me out with this situation.  I need to figure out how to get it online and also need to run another cable for the "good" Lite.
I will begin shrinking my photo files later so I can share.
As always I am humbled by your generosity...


Dgd.  When the arrays were disconnected from the Lite, the voltage in was 8.1. 

[WizBandit]

Ahhhhh! Confusion is my niddle mame.

In the PV world we use "string" to mean a set of PV modules consisting of 2 or more in series.
The POS & NEG wiring from this "string" is called a "PV Source Circuit".

Many PV source circuits are sent to a circuit breaker or fuse in a "Combiner Box" which electrically "combines" the outputs of many circuits together into one bigger sized wire via a buss & big LUG. ALL PV modules in combined strings must have similar electrical characteristics.

When we parallel modules we say "3 parallel connected PV modules for source circuit #1"
and "2 parallel connected PV modules for source circuit #2"
These as well need to have similar electrical characteristics.

It is recommended each module in a parallel setup be combined in a combiner box with its own Fuse or Breaker and not just "wire-nutted" together or landed on a terminal block. This makes maintenance a whole lot easier but abit more expensive, which is why most chose series strings.

Class is over, the bell has rang, put down your pencils, and go wire up some PV

[mobywile]

Thanks Whizbandit.  Yep, I used wire nuts. But, for argument's sake, can we assume everything is wrong, but OK?  It worked for 2 years without problems, almost. It worked with the PWMs for decades.  It wakes up when it should, does the "Follow Me" to perfection, turns off and goes to "Resting 5" correctly.  Sorry, WHY won't it charge??
I really am in the process of bringing this stuff up to date, but I need this to work before I buy all the rest of the components to upgrade everything.  And, horror of horrors, is it possible that I do have a component failure in the unit somewhere?  Just askin'...
And, I do appreciate the nomenclature lesson.  You'll love this.  Through a number of twists of business and fate, I ended up spending my last 10 years at The Home Depot.  I was "the guy" in the electrical department.  Everything from SE to light sockets, I had to make it work - good at, too.  But, the biggest challenge was hearing what the other guy was saying and deciding what he/she needed from me. 
Thanks for listening...

[dgd]

Mobywile,
It's almost impossible to understand what the real problem is because there is so many sidebar issues being discussed and little real facts emerging.
So just a few questions and ideas/tests
Remove the follow me and disable it to remove that being a factor
If you power off the working classic lite does the other one start charging the bank?
If not then have you power cycled it and see if it then starts?
What are the charge settings?  Absorb and float?
I assume you are not grid connected with an inverter that also charges the bank?
They are both in solar charge mode, I assume?
Using just the non working lite have you tried changing it to solar legacy P&O mode, if not try it and what happens?
Have tried swapping the two Lites to use the PV array that powers the good lite then the good lite on the bad array?
Dgd

[Halfcrazy]

Moby in the example above where you used the MNGP to see both. What stage are they in? Bulk MPPT ot Float or?

[vtmaps]

Sorry to send everyone down the wrong road.
The working Lite has 2 strings of 3 panels plus a string of 2 panels. The non-working Lite is fed by 2 strings of 3 panels.  I hope this clears some ground.

Are you saying that there are 8 panels hooked up to the working Lite?  Are these identical panels?  If so, that is a very problematic configuration.  If the panels are all the same, you must have the same string length in each of the strings. 

--vtMaps