Hey Midnite,
Are guys going to consider creating an E-panel for Schneider new inverter the Conext SW line. They seem a good inverter at a reasonable price. I think they will do well and one of you e-panels would sure make it a more favourable offering in terms of overall pricing. I am personally going to purchase one for testing before I offer it to my clients, although I would personally much prefer a Midnite solar inverter. In my opinion Midnite can't go wrong with offering similar specs on theire inverter. I love this new box from Schneider is offering and the price seems to be the icing on the cake.
Here is the link:
http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Id=84697080&p_File_Name=Conext-SW-Sell-Sheet.pdf
Cheers...
Damani
Damani
Funny you post this. I just had lunch with the crew from Schneider and yes we are going to build a box (E-Panel) for the SW inverter. Sandra took the covers off the SW and I am very impressed. I think these guys have hit a home run, I bet it has the crew at Magnum sweating pretty bad.
Here is a question for everyone though.
Would you prefer to have a lower cost box with no AC bypass in it and have the bypass as an option if you want it? I guess what I am really asking is would a considerably less expensive E-Panel that is sort of a Kit if you will be favorable? We would include the Battery cables and AC wires etc as well as needed buss bars and breakers just not the bypass etc and you could assemble it?
Ryan
Ryan,
I would put my hand up for a lower cost box with the bypass as an option. I have installed several inverters that don't use the by pass breakers(sometimes I take them out for me to use myself as regular breakers). I most of my clients don't even use the charger function of these types of inverters. So I would go one step further and request that some of these nice inverters have the option where the charge function is ommited and a cheaper inverter offered.
As to sweating. Outback, Apollo and samlex should sweat profusely. I just got a quote of $1300 for the 4024SW model. I really like the fact that it is switchable 50/60Hz. I only wish that their customer service would improve. However who need customer service if you gear doesn't break down( a la xw series). I am yet to know of anyone personally that has issues with their xw inverters. So if this sw is anything like the xw at half the price they definitely have a winner in my book.
Cheers...
Damani
Quote from: dapdan on June 24, 2013, 02:44:38 PM
Ryan,
I would put my hand up for a lower cost box with the bypass as an option. I have installed several inverters that don't use the by pass breakers(sometimes I take them out for me to use myself as regular breakers). I most of my clients don't even use the charger function of these types of inverters. So I would go one step further and request that some of these nice inverters have the option where the charge function is ommited and a cheaper inverter offered.
As to sweating. Outback, Apollo and samlex should sweat profusely. I just got a quote of $1300 for the 4024SW model. I really like the fact that it is switchable 50/60Hz. I only wish that their customer service would improve. However who need customer service if you gear doesn't break down( a la xw series). I am yet to know of anyone personally that has issues with their xw inverters. So if this sw is anything like the xw at half the price they definitely have a winner in my book.
Cheers...
Damani
Wow,that's impressive!
where are they made?
From the installation manual, do I have this right? These units do full single/split phase 120/240, right out of the box? Not xformer, no stacking?
I would say Schneider's support is getting better now that Schneider and Square D are in the mix in my opinion.
As far as where they are made Schneider has there own facility in China so they are able to control quality. And most of the major players except Magnum are made in India or China.
The inverter is a true split phase 120/240 vac. It will also charge batteries from a 120vac only generator and the SW will make the other leg of the 120 so the inverter still puts out 120/240vac. The SW has full blown generator support as well to allow fr running large loads.
Ryan
Wow,
my OB gt3524 is still NiB, wonder if I should sell it and order one of these.
The OB is pre-india (I think) the box is a couple of years old now.
I know these OB units are tough as nails, , , I wonder how this new unit will
handle mobile/portable use.
From my tour through the guts of it (Sandra removed the covers and let us look it over) I would say it is very capable of mobile use. It is built like a Tank
Hi Ryan,
Am glad to hear that the Schneider Customer Support function has improved, although from my limited experience with them, there is only way that it could have gone is up.
As I read the spec sheet, looks like it still would need the SCP, for another US$ 210 to 250. If that is the case, seems kind of steep for a lower priced Inverter. And the 38-40 watt inverting idle seems high.
And wonder if the Firmware Implanter tool will be required for FW updates ...
EDIT: This Schneider Video adds a bit of detail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys_L1-TsOyk
Up to two units are stackable, Guess that the SCP is required for configuration/settings as I heard it. FWIW
End EDIT
But if it is a sub $1500 unit, seems to have some good specs. Opinions, Vic
Quote from: Halfcrazy on June 24, 2013, 07:48:35 PM
As far as where they are made Schneider has there own facility in China so they are able to control quality. And most of the major players except Magnum are made in India or China.
According to Outback, their G inverters are still made in WA state. Though if the WA state sales tax exemption goes away maybe that will change?
The new Context SWs look nice. I would worry about that high idle draw if off grid though...
Speaking of idle draw - anyone know what the idle (resting) draw is on the Classics currently?
Someone asked this in another thread but never got an answer. Hmm. Maybe I need to measure mine (I should update to the latest FW first though. :o_)
We have Sandra's SW at MidNite. Our own unit won't arrive until this next week. We are trying to get an E-Panel done for the Intersolar show in San Francisco on July 7th. That gives us 4 days to get the sheet metal built and painted. Not much time! We already know the powder coat won't match very well. We will need to have a custom color made, but no time for the show. The SW is made in India as I recall. I heard it was designed by the same guy who did the XW, so I think it will work just fine. We will be deciding how to offer the E-Panel between now and the show, but it will most likely be a kit to save cost. Schneider has their own AC and DC box, but they asked us to also make an E-Panel. We have some features that their boxes do not have such as a shunt. We will also have the Whizbang Jr before too long for monitoring what that shunt is doing.
I don't know where the idle is at on the Classic, but we keep on making circuit changes to make it better. Bob hasn't had time to fully implement all the power reductions yet though. Soon I hope.
This Intersolar show in San Francisco is going to be fun. We get to show a good prototype of the Kid and a new controller called the Brat. Morningstar probably won't be very happy with us. These are both high volume controllers. They will be built in Arlington, WA of course.
Robin,
I would be interested in the e panel for the SW for sure. I am also looking forward for the kid and the brat. I am sure I can find some space for a few of them in my current family of 3 classic. Maybe an inverter in the near future as well.
Cheers...
Damani
Quote from: Halfcrazy on June 24, 2013, 09:02:21 AM
Would you prefer to have a lower cost box with no AC bypass in it and have the bypass as an option if you want it?
I saw one of those SW's at the dealer that was being prepped for an install, and the Schneider conduit box was there on the bench with it. The Schneider box has a AC bypass built into it. IMHO installing an inverter off-grid without a way to bypass it could be a disaster. But I think more people would opt for a decent independent two-pole transfer switch for an inverter bypass vs a couple interlocked breakers that still leave the AC parts of the box powered up in the event an off-grid inverter needs to be serviced.
Putting an AC bypass integral into an inverter's conduit box allows you a simple way to keep the power on if it fails. But it's still not serviceable without shutting all the power off anyway, because the inverter is still connected to a live box. So I question the value of even having an AC bypass in a conduit box or E Panel.
That SW looked like a real nice unit. And I guess it uses all the same peripheral stuff (AGS, etc) as its big brother.
--
Chris
Hey midnite,
I have my new context sw and boy it got some weight. When can I get my hands on an e-panel for it.
Cheers...
Damani
There are somewhere around 5-6 beta E-Panels in house if anyone is interested I could get pictures. The new version is at the sheet metal shop and as soon as we get it we will send it out to be listed. Stay tuned it should not be long. Now to make the Classic speak Xanbus :o
Ryan,
I am interested in the e-panel. I don't need etl listing as some may in the US...if you get my drift. It would be nice have on to install on the wall. Anyways, I would like to see the pics at the very least. The Conext is a very good looking inverter with nice clean lines and compact. New things are very exciting.
Cheers...
Damani
Nice inverter, in terms of features and the price. Perhaps the only thing I see lacking is 48V DC input model in their line.
I was not really impressed with the Schneider transformation of Xantrex. I did not see many new products they created after buying Xantrex and their offering looked kind of bland. This new inverter may give them some bragging rights and interest.
As far as Magnum, sometimes I catch myself wondering, is Magnum going to be around? I own two PAE-4448 inverters that I purchased 18 months apart and I was able to make some deductions about the number of units manufactured in that time frame.
Quote from: Vic on June 24, 2013, 09:08:22 PM
And the 38-40 watt inverting idle seems high.
That is high. My outback vfx3524 draws 20 watts at idle. The difference between the OB and the conext SW could power a small refrigerator. The conext SW is only 24 volts, so its not for larger (48v) systems. The smaller the system, the larger that 40 watt idle draw seems.
The conext SW sure does have some nice features, especially generator support. The outback is more powerful and a few hundred dollars more expensive. If I had it to do all over again... I'm not sure I would trade the Outback's power and low idle draw for Schneider's gen support.
Quote from: Vic on June 24, 2013, 09:08:22 PMAm glad to hear that the Schneider Customer Support function has improved, although from my limited experience with them, there is only way that it could have gone is up.
And from what I read over at Wrench's forum, Outback's tech support has been going downhill :(
--vtMaps
EDIT: oops! The conext comes in two power capacities... the larger one is comparable to the outback.
One of my favorite things in life is to HATE Schneider (for good reasons).
I do have an application where an Inverter similar to the Context SW might fit well.
BUT, agree, the 40 W idle really seems to be a KILLER. I Kwh per day to just sit there, it really seems like a large hurdle for a medium-sized inverter.
vt is correct, many refers are in that range of power consumption.
But, from the specs, the new SWs seem nice.
Expect that S sees 48 users will step up to the XW line ... whatta I know? Vic
Did one of you measure an idle power of 40 watts on the SW Conext ?
boB
Quote from: boB on September 08, 2013, 12:56:24 AM
Did one of you measure an idle power of 40 watts on the SW Conext ?
I commented on it earlier... the 40 watt idle power is from the specifications. --vtMaps
I will ask Tom (One of our employees) to measure that and get back to you guys.
Ryan
Midnite,
In the other forum(wind) I started a review of this inverter. It seems go good machine so far except the the two fans run all the time even when there are no loads on it.
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?20971-The-new-Conext-SW4024-review
Are you guys getting the same issue with the fans or do I have a bum unit?
Damani
Ok,
I have just installed a victron monitor along with shunt and have measure no load current draw and disable current draw and break off current draw. Starting smallest first:
Breaker off: 0.00A at 26v ~ 0w
Breaker on, inverter disabled: 0.22A at 26v ~ 5.7w (fans are off)
Breaker on, inverter enabled: 2.40A at 26v ~ 62.4w(ouch...both fans are on with no load attached)
So idle draw seems to be more that what was spec by about 50%. This this is big parasite.
Cheers...
Damani
DapDan I am not sure about your fans but ours do not run. So that explains the load you are seeing those fans have to be many watts each
Ryan
Quote from: dapdan on September 08, 2013, 08:42:35 AM
Ok,
I have just installed a victron monitor along with shunt and have measure no load current draw and disable current draw and break off current draw. Starting smallest first:
Breaker off: 0.00A at 26v ~ 0w
Breaker on, inverter disabled: 0.22A at 26v ~ 5.7w (fans are off)
Breaker on, inverter enabled: 2.40A at 26v ~ 62.4w(ouch...both fans are on with no load attached)
So idle draw seems to be more that what was spec by about 50%. This this is big parasite.
Cheers...
Damani
DapDan
You may try unplugging the Temp Sensor. if memory serves if you short the Temp sensor pins it runs the fans as a test?
Ryan
Ryan,
I don't have the temp sensor installed. In fact I have set up an ambient temp monitor with a probe. I have placed the probe at an exhaust point by the ac connection strips and it measures 93.6f and the ambient is 88.7f and both fans are still running. I have small load on a hunter ceiling fan in the same room(about 50w load). I have turned everything off where only the inverter is on and the ceiling fan load and the monitor shows that 4.12A at 26v is being supplied.
I have to monitor this fan issue to make sure it is a continous problem. I have emailed schneider about this issuer.
Cheers...
Damani
Quote from: vtmaps on August 29, 2013, 08:00:44 AM
'm not sure I would trade the Outback's power and low idle draw for Schneider's gen support.
Maybe not.
But I think I would trade it for the single inverter split phase 120/240Vac
Quote from: Halfcrazy on June 24, 2013, 09:02:21 AM
Would you prefer to have a lower cost box with no AC bypass in it and have the bypass as an option if you want it? I guess what I am really asking is would a considerably less expensive E-Panel that is sort of a Kit if you will be favorable? We would include the Battery cables and AC wires etc as well as needed buss bars and breakers just not the bypass etc and you could assemble it?
Ryan,
I voted yes since I removed mine from my E-Panel, Still would like to see an integrated E-Panel with a Midnite CC integrated! Like the old Pulse Energy/Trace PC250/500's. It would make wiring a snap.
Quote from: Halfcrazy on September 08, 2013, 06:11:59 AM
I will ask Tom (One of our employees) to measure that and get back to you guys.
Ryan
Hi Ryan, did this ever get around to been done? interested to see the real world figure.
Just purchased this Inverter :
* Manufactured in November 2013, Model 865-4024.
* Firmware revision : 2.02.03 BN 0
I am having issues with the fan control also :
Day 1. Installed it on the wall, with plenty (>3') of ventilation space all around. 26*C- 30*C Ambient temperature. Powered it on, it went through the boot up sequence with the fans spun up, then spun down and shut them off in under a minute. No loads connected as it has not been patched in yet.
Day 2. Came home in the evening around 6pm, and the fans were on (which never surprised me as the house is hot in the days). They never went off by themselves. Cycling the main breaker @ 9pm then resulted in a quiet unit upon restart. I then decided to reboot the unit using a 3-second press of the reset button, the fans came on and stayed on. This is a repeatable step, rebooting the unit with a 3-second salute will always make the fans come on and stay on regardless of the environmental conditions. The fans do reduce their RPM to a minimum though.
Day 3. Connecting the BTS to the inverter seems to have an effect on the length of time the fans stay on, with the BTS they shut off after 1 hour or so .. Still no loads connected to the inverter.
I will keep you folks updated....
Interesting david. I will attach my bts and see what happens.
Damani
Interesting david. I will attach my bts and see what happens.
Damani
Well I connected some loads today, namely a 13 Cuft Fridge and some lights and I can say all is well!
the fans stayed off for most of the day, came on for a while then went off by sunset and are still off @9pm. So maybe it just needed some time to get settled. Also my only experience with an inverter capable of > 2000 watts would be Outback's 3024J which has a brief, quieter more gradual fan control. So inexperiece could be a factor here as well. The Conext SW seems to bring on the fans aggressively and keep them on for a long time, then gradually taper them off, even with a load of < 200watts.
So far I am very happy with this inverter.
p.s. The BTS is now disconnected.
Wont somebody measure the idle draw?
yes ilke the new context inverters too but they should make a 48v version too
idle draw is not kool according to users and the guys from NAWS
Quote from: zoneblue on March 06, 2014, 03:49:22 PM
Wont somebody measure the idle draw?
Idle Measured with a Fluke Clamp meter :
46watts
yes that a lot compared to other inverters on the market
1100Wh/day. Gosh. 24v inverters are generally on systems less than 2kW, so thats about a third of the systems generation. What an earth was schneider thinking?
I suppose paired with a suresine or something, it would work ok. Whats the standby draw?
Quote from: zoneblue on March 07, 2014, 05:40:13 PMWhats the standby draw?
Dapdan did some measurements when he had his fan control issue :
Quote from: dapdan on September 08, 2013, 08:42:35 AM
Ok,
I have just installed a victron monitor along with shunt and have measure no load current draw and disable current draw and break off current draw. Starting smallest first:
Breaker off: 0.00A at 26v ~ 0w
Breaker on, inverter disabled: 0.22A at 26v ~ 5.7w (fans are off)
Breaker on, inverter enabled: 2.40A at 26v ~ 62.4w(ouch...both fans are on with no load attached)
So idle draw seems to be more that what was spec by about 50%. This this is big parasite.
Cheers...
Damani
Quote from: Halfcrazy on June 24, 2013, 07:48:35 PM
....
The inverter is a true split phase 120/240 vac. It will also charge batteries from a 120vac only generator and the SW will make the other leg of the 120 so the inverter still puts out 120/240vac. The SW has full blown generator support as well to allow fr running large loads......
If/when, my XW fails, this is in my sights. Being off grid, well pump and generators, something small and easy to start by the wife like an EU1000 could be all I need. Who cares if it takes 4 hours to charge the battery. But I already made up a 120-240 transformer to run the small gensets with.
(note - my Classic 200 has arrived, and I'll crack open the box, play the DVD (or is it just a .PDF on it. I expect to start being here a lot more now. )
pending - Classic 200. 2000w evergreen PV array [factory blems]
As said before by others, this thing is a beast for its size, and intended market. I can understand the design tradeoff to have a higher idle draw for such a good surge capability. I think it was Halfcrazy that commented on its excellent AC regulation when you throw loads at it, and I can second that.
Dapdan was one of the early adopters, and he seems happy with it too..
I am very happy with it. Price, specs, features and performance are spot on. It only needs to be in 48v now. My only complaint is that I am impatiently waiting on midnite to make one that is better.
Cheers...
Damani
Quote from: dapdan on March 09, 2014, 02:29:51 PM
I am very happy with it. Price, specs, features and performance are spot on. It only needs to be in 48v now. My only complaint is that I am impatiently waiting on midnite to make one that is better.
Cheers...
Damani
I just know that Midnite's big inverter is going to be GREAT and worth the wait.
Maybe Schneider will speed up the development of the 48V model now that the "half-Radian" GS4048a is out, although that is going to be more expensive given it has grid-interactive features. interesting the idle draw on the GS4048a is 34W.
Hello and greetings from Bangalore, India. I chanced upon this thread in looking for a specific piece of information on the Schneider Conext SW 4024/4048 which I am planning to buy for my home - and which is sold and supported locally here in India. Rather than start a new thread I chose to bring this one back to life...and "new" in the subject is still relevant because the SW4048 is still not out!
I have been trying hard over the last 3 weeks to get some idea of the THD for the Conext SW inverters but have been drawing a blank. The XW datasheet states THD as 5%, but the SW datasheet and manuals state no figure. Questions to Schneider folks in 3 countries have only resulted in silence so far. I am particularly interested in the THD when running nonlinear loads which inverters are notorious for not being able to handle. For example my Phocos 3kVA distorts badly and causes any incandescent lights to constantly flicker when my 150W laptop SMPS supply is connected (SMPSes represent a decently nonlinear load). (LEDs and CFLs do not flicker as much.)
Any inputs from users here on this aspect? Anyone taken a snapshot of the Conext SW waveform on an oscilloscope?
Cheers - Ram
Hi Ram,
Welcome to the Forum,
Am surprised that the XW Inverter is as BAD as 5% THD ... this is not very good, IMO.
And, you really want a Worst-Case THD number, and this will depend on a number of variables, so a simple snapshot will not show Worst-Case unless one is very lucky.
Really, this number must come from Schneider, and if they are not putting this important data in their specs, but, rather in a manual, seems to me to me that Schneider is not willing to guarantee this spec.
Have been running Xantrex SW+ 5548s for a decade, and under certain conditions, the output sinewave from the inverters is completely flat-topping the waveform -- this is during EQ at about 63.5 - 64 V on the battery. ad felt that this might well have been an AC output voltage regulation strategy that these inverters employ when Vbatt is very high ... just guessing.
Also, it will be difficult to determine just what is the THD from one oscillogram.
Additionally, IMO, it is probably not THD that is causing flicker of lights. Would guess that it has more to do with AC output voltage regulation, and this is readily affected by battery voltage regulation, and this often involves battery interconnections, etc.
Just my opinions, and guesses. FWIW, Good Luck, Vic
Thanks for penning your thoughts, @Vic. You're right that THD alone does not cause light flicker, but I have experimented with a number of inverters and looked at waveforms, measured THDs, watched lights flickering etc and I have come to the conclusion that the THD and flicker factors are correlated; quite simply, the [in]ability of an inverter (which may be speced at 5% with resistive loads) to handle nonlinear loads like a laptop SMPS which draws several spikes of current per second, is related to its [in]ability to hold the output voltage and its shape steady. Its inability to do that in any measure manifests as flicker.
By way of an update - I got an email from Eric Bentsen at Schneider acknowledging that while they have not published their THD spec for the Conext SW, their technical champion says it is less than 3%. Puzzling that an SW should have a better spec than its big brother the XW, and more puzzling why they do not publish it if it is really as good as 3%! He also said THD testing is done with resistive loads which leaves that all important question of nonlinear loads hanging :-(.
Here is a detailed update I got on the Conext SW after chasing the matter further with Douglas Wicks, product manager for the battery inverter line.
best-Ram
...our product will probably NOT meet your requirements for audio equipment. For the IEC version, the THD is less than 5% with the normal input voltage range 44V-56V. When the input voltage range is 40V-44V, the THD is less than 8%. The tests are conducted under pure resistive load condition. (We are not sure where the <3% came from... )
I talked with our compliance team and they provided the following information.
For the CSW (IEC and UL models), the requirements for Vthd on OUTPUT of an inverter are summarized as follows.
IEC 62109-1 = no requirement
EN 50178 = no requirement
IEC 60240-1: (UPS safety) = no requirement
IEC 60240-2: (UPS EMC) = no requirement
IEC 60240-3 (UPS performance) =The effect on the output of the UPS by non-linear loads both in steady-state and dynamic is, in many cases, to cause deviation from the output characteristic specified by the manufacturer/supplier where these are quoted under linear load conditions. Due to the higher peak to r.m.s. steady-state current ratios, the output voltage total harmonic distortion may be increased beyond the manufacturer's stated limit. Compatibility with the load for higher levels of THD is a matter of agreement between the manufacturer and the purchaser.
IEC60335-1 (household equipment) = no requirement
CSA107.1 says 30% THD (mark a warning if higher)
UL1741 says same