XW6048 epanel
Been getting high battery voltage alarms from the charge controller, and I went over all the battery interconnects and the terminals in the charge controller with an IR thermometer.
Then, when getting into the ePanel, to prep for the Midnight Controller for the new array, I saw the cause. And all the screws seem tight. Putting in new #4 wire (55A) and buss bar, and that should fix it up. Yow!
So, it would seem that #4 coarse wire would be ok in the buss bar. Is this a correct assumption ? Screws were in tight. Till the new bar is here, I'm not messing much with it, as this is a live system. Any suggestions about conductive copper filled greases for the wires ?
more photos here https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=000000000000000&l=8bc17afb6c
Hi Mike,
WOW, that is UGLY.
You are a technical person, but, as you know, these connections must be very tight, allowed to rest and then re-torqued.
Have never had this problem, but charging batteries can create a lot of stress on components, because it is often a long slog.
Have never used any conductive goop on these connections, BUT, would think that NoalOx or very similar compound should not hurt -- any anti-oxidation material intended for electrical connections should be OK.
So these cables had clean and bright copper at the connection to the busses when first installed?
This situation simply has to be the result of contact resistance at the buss connection -- normally torqueing to spec, and repeating a day or so later should be fine, unless the cables are far under-rated, which from your post, they should not have been.
The additional pics unavailable -- am not a Face-Space member.
Dunno. Good Luck! Vic
I'm curious as to what the yellow label in this e-panel is saying. It seems to indicate, although most of it is blocked by the wring, that fine stranding wire be used for something. Anyone know what the complete label said.
And yeah the FB links don't work.
I think I have the same sticker in mine , poor pic attached but readable.
Mike, Just saw that the upper wire is getting black corrosion and charred insulation too...
So according to the label the Battery cable are suppose to be fine strand cables such as the Cobra cables. Those cables on the Battery Plus bus bar are not fine strand cables.
John, you're comment made me look... wow, look at the strand #'s on these battery cable s
http://www.cobrawire.com/products/battery.php
Quote from: Resthome on April 24, 2014, 11:53:40 PM
So according to the label the Battery cable are suppose to be fine strand cables such as the Cobra cables. Those cables on the Battery Plus bus bar are not fine strand cables.
10 years ago when I made my battery cables (only 35 sq mm about 1AWG), I used a superflex cable, like this:
(http://house.albury.net.au/31dec2004/MVC-096X.JPG)
I had ALMOST gone to the red stuff in this picture, but the cost was prohibitive...
(http://house.albury.net.au/31dec2004/MVC-107X.JPG)
Quote from: Resthome on April 24, 2014, 11:53:40 PM
So according to the label the Battery cable are suppose to be fine strand cables such as the Cobra cables. Those cables on the Battery Plus bus bar are not fine strand cables.
That label is referring to the big cables that go to and from the breaker to the inverter. Not to that bus bar. We do not want people trying to run 2/0 or 4/0 THHN to the breaker as it would be brutal for them and tough on the breaker.
I should also point out this is a point of confusion as the little terminal bus bar is labeled "Battery Positive" and it is battery positive but for things like charge controllers or loads not the actual battery. I wonder if a label change may be beneficial. Maybe something like "Battery + for Accessories"
In this particular case this was not the issue but I have seen 3 or 4 people wire there battery to that little bus bar with #4 or #6 thhn and wonder why things melt when the XW draws 6KW.
As seen in the attached picture the Red arrow depicts "Battery positive" and the Green Arrow depicts "Accessory Positive"
As you can see you would not want to try to hook 4/0 THHN to that breaker but in the other side #4 THHN is perfectly manageable to the Accessory bus bar
When terminating stranded wire in a screw type bus bar you should insert the wire into the smallest hole it will fit in and use a ferrule or tin the wire to prevent damage to the strands. The process of tightening the screw "grinds" on the wire strands and reduces their cross-section. If you damage the strands, the termination will not handle the full ampacity of the wire.
It is also difficult to keep the connection tight after it thermal cycles a few times when the strands are damaged and squeezed out to the side of the screw as shown in the photo. Tinning the wire prevents that. The screw will "bite" into the tinning and make a good contact surface area to the bus bar, but the tinning will prevent damage to your wire strands.
I'm not sure if tinning meets code for commercial installations (I don't think it does) where stranded wire is terminated in a screw type lug. But ferrules or Anderson contact lugs do meet code. For me, tinning the wire has always worked fine and insures a maximum contact wire termination that will stay tight with thermal cycling. I've had inspectors look at some of my installations and they never said anything about the tinning on the wire. So I think tinning the stranded wire is "good enough" for the poor man doing his own installation. I think an inspector would only question it if it happened to burn off and then he'd look at it and go, "Oh yeah - there's your problem - you tinned it instead of using a ferrule."
Quote from: Halfcrazy on April 25, 2014, 07:06:55 AM
That label is referring to the big cables that go to and from the breaker to the inverter. Not to that bus bar. We do not want people trying to run 2/0 or 4/0 THHN to the breaker as it would be brutal for them and tough on the breaker.
That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification, Ryan. It wasn't clear what terminals the label was referring to.
Quote from: ChrisOlson on April 25, 2014, 10:46:38 AM
When terminating stranded wire in a screw type bus bar you should insert the wire into the smallest hole it will fit in and use a ferrule or tin the wire to prevent damage to the strands. The process of tightening the screw "grinds" on the wire strands and reduces their cross-section. If you damage the strands, the termination will not handle the full ampacity of the wire.
It is also difficult to keep the connection tight after it thermal cycles a few times when the strands are damaged and squeezed out to the side of the screw as shown in the photo. Tinning the wire prevents that. The screw will "bite" into the tinning and make a good contact surface area to the bus bar, but the tinning will prevent damage to your wire strands.
I'm not sure if tinning meets code for commercial installations (I don't think it does) where stranded wire is terminated in a screw type lug. But ferrules or Anderson contact lugs do meet code. For me, tinning the wire has always worked fine and insures a maximum contact wire termination that will stay tight with thermal cycling. I've had inspectors look at some of my installations and they never said anything about the tinning on the wire. So I think tinning the stranded wire is "good enough" for the poor man doing his own installation. I think an inspector would only question it if it happened to burn off and then he'd look at it and go, "Oh yeah - there's your problem - you tinned it instead of using a ferrule."
+1.
Excellent advise Chris. I tin mine also. Adding the ferrules is great but doesn't always work unless you have a larger hole available in the buss bar.
Any recommendations of ferrules? As my pic shows there is not much room in a standard width E-panel...
Quote from: Westbranch on April 25, 2014, 03:26:01 PM
Any recommendations of ferrules? As my pic shows there is not much room in a standard width E-panel...
I'm not using and e-panel here but from the pictures you're correct not a lot of room. You also have to use the correct crimpers with the ferrules.
http://www.ferrulesdirect.com/electrical/WIRE_FERRULES.htm (http://www.ferrulesdirect.com/electrical/WIRE_FERRULES.htm)
I agree that screw type terminals have issues, and i try to avoid them altogether for anything carrying any current. Crimp, lug and post is a better solution.
Quote from: zoneblue on April 27, 2014, 06:15:25 PM
I agree that screw type terminals have issues, and i try to avoid them altogether for anything carrying any current. Crimp, lug and post is a better solution.
There's nothing really wrong with screw type lug or bus bar terminals. They are designed for solid wire but can be used with stranded wire with no issues as long as you use a ferrule or tin the wire. For me, tinning has always worked as good as a ferrule. The tinning also insures a clean connection that will stay clean with age.
resthome,
i wouldn't recommend tinning as the slightest bad connection or over current condition would melt the solder and accelerate a bad connection condition. in a worst case the solder will explode like molten shrapnel or drip down to the next wire/buss below.
mike,
in my opinion you have too many strands in your wires. these busses were meant for solid wires, but a few strands won't hurt. going 20, 30, 40, etc. and up is asking for trouble. i don't believe that was the case on that buss as it appears the buss may have been over loaded with current. maybe a short or misswired at some point. i see the set screws are all discolored from excessive heat even in the middle. some of the wires on the buss next to that one are discolored too. magnify your images and look more closely to see what i'm talking about.
Quote from: niel on May 01, 2014, 04:53:59 AM
i wouldn't recommend tinning as the slightest bad connection or over current condition would melt the solder and accelerate a bad connection condition. in a worst case the solder will explode like molten shrapnel or drip down to the next wire/buss below.
Solder melts at 216°C. The maximum temp rating of the wire is 90°C. If you melt solder off a tinned connection or have solder "explode like molten shrapnel" you got one hell of a lot bigger problem than a bad connection on a bus bar.
Quote from: ChrisOlson on May 01, 2014, 08:41:34 AM
Quote from: niel on May 01, 2014, 04:53:59 AM
i wouldn't recommend tinning as the slightest bad connection or over current condition would melt the solder and accelerate a bad connection condition. in a worst case the solder will explode like molten shrapnel or drip down to the next wire/buss below.
Solder melts at 216°C. The maximum temp rating of the wire is 90°C. If you melt solder off a tinned connection or have solder "explode like molten shrapnel" you got one hell of a lot bigger problem than a bad connection on a bus bar.
+1
Quote from: ChrisOlson on May 01, 2014, 08:41:34 AM
Solder melts at 216°C. The maximum temp rating of the wire is 90°C. If you melt solder off a tinned connection or have solder "explode like molten shrapnel" you got one hell of a lot bigger problem than a bad connection on a bus bar.
yes, it's called "an over current condition" like i mentioned and that could be a short. reading is fundamental even for M Es.
Yes i think its pretty likely that bus bar had some amps through it at some stage. I very much doubt that bat+ bar was ever intended for anything other than a few small ancilliary loads.
Quote from: zoneblue on May 01, 2014, 04:28:57 PM
Yes i think its pretty likely that bus bar had some amps through it at some stage. I very much doubt that bat+ bar was ever intended for anything other than a few small ancilliary loads.
Small ancillary loads probably needs to be on the label in the epanel. I have seen this +ve bus used to connect two Classic 150s that can easily output 85+ amps each on a good day. #4 multistrand cable was used into the larger holes in the block and when the screw was tightened most of the strands were diverted either side of the screw.
I thought this was a bit ugly and then all that current going to the +ve connector on the breake via a length of #6 few strand cable.
I try to avoid these type of bus bars much preferring the types with a row of studs and nuts to take ring type copper connectors crimped onto the multistrand copper cables. Tighten these down with a spring lock washer and there is no re-torqing required.
Althought with several power making/using devices that +ve stud on the 175/250A breaker can get a little busy.
dgd
Quote from: niel on May 01, 2014, 02:01:18 PM
yes, it's called "an over current condition" like i mentioned and that could be a short. reading is fundamental even for M Es.
I'll ignore the last comment - for now. And stick to the topic. The issue is not over current. That's why breakers and fuses are used on circuits to prevent over-temping your wire beyond it's max rating. The issue is proper termination of stranded cables in set screw bus bars and lugs.
John Wiles on what the problem is:
http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/CC104.pdf
the breakers won't stop all shorts and i'm not saying it was shorted, but it looks that way.
i'll ignore that my initial comments weren't directed to you as i addressed mike and resthome.
Just looked it up. UL486 testing includes tinned stranded cable in set screw lug terminations. Tinning is an approved method of termination under both UL486 compliance and NEC. Crimped on solid pin terminations, however, are not approved for use in set screw lugs.
Amazingly, UL486 allows for 5% shear of the strands after the screw is torqued to the specification and held at spec torque for five seconds.
Quote from: niel on May 02, 2014, 01:47:48 AM
the breakers won't stop all shorts and i'm not saying it was shorted, but it looks that way.
i'll ignore that my initial comments weren't directed to you as i addressed mike and resthome.
I guess I'll have to ignore your comment then, for now anyway.
As for breakers and fuses protecting your wires from shorts. I have a breaker at the Classic for the Battery and PV and a proper sized fuse near the battery bank. So if the Classic lets out smoke and it's typical failure would be a short I'm as protected as I can be. And my stranded wire is Marine grade tinned cooper for less chance of corrosion in a marine environment. It is also more fatigue-resistant as vibration is always present on a boat and will possible fatigue and crack coarsely stranded wire. And last there is no way of avoiding the screw terminals block on the Classic itself. So different environments require different solutions.
Quote from: Resthome on May 02, 2014, 01:42:47 PM
And my stranded wire is Marine grade tinned cooper for less chance of corrosion in a marine environment. It is also more fatigue-resistant as vibration is always present on a boat and will possible fatigue and crack coarsely stranded wire. And last there is no way of avoiding the screw terminals block on the Classic itself. So different environments require different solutions.
It's the same way with all the wiring in our sailing yacht - all marine tinned copper. There's a specific specification that wire has to meet and marine surveyors and USCG inspectors are pretty good at finding one wire in the boat that you "cheated" on and didn't use the right wire. If it's in there, they'll find it and write it up.
In checking on UL486, it's kind of interesting. You have lugs and you have terminations, but they are not the same thing. As an OEM when you install a conductor into a lug and then submit that assembly to UL, what you get back is a device with a 'listed termination'. UL then allows you to provide a lug and the proper instructions so that a field installed conductor maintains the 'listing' for the termination.
I assume this is the way the MidNite boxes are listed - they have labels in them with the proper torque specs, which bars or lugs are UL Listed for fine strand cable, etc.. In Mike's case where he had a connection overheat due to high resistance at the bus bar, technically his install should meet the termination requirements for Class B stranded wire. Whether or not the termination was torqued correctly, I don't know. The spec calls for using a torque wrench (not guessing) and when the proper torque is reached it must be held at the torque spec for an additional 5 seconds.
Tinning is allowed for stranded wire in set screw lugs, and is one of the tests under UL486 on the heat and pull test. When you tin the wire the termination is considered to meet UL486 as long as the torque specs are adhered to, and even allows the use of fine stranded cable in lugs and bus bars not listed for fine strand because tinning effectively turns a stranded cable into a solid wire. It is interesting that they make a distinction between tinning and solder dipped. Tinning is tested and approved - solder dipped is not. If you use a ferrule on stranded wire in a set screw lug, then the ferrule itself has to be UL Listed.
It's no mystery that Mike's wire termination got burnt and damaged from high resistance connection at the bus bar - more than likely caused by the classic problem of strand shear during tightening of the screw, and failure of the connection to stay tight with age. Simply tinning the wire end totally solves both problems. I think it's important for folks to see that it can happen, and also to learn the proper methods of terminating wire in these types of bus bars so it doesn't happen to them.
Quote from: ChrisOlson on May 02, 2014, 02:06:07 PM
Quote from: Resthome on May 02, 2014, 01:42:47 PM
And my stranded wire is Marine grade tinned cooper for less chance of corrosion in a marine environment. It is also more fatigue-resistant as vibration is always present on a boat and will possible fatigue and crack coarsely stranded wire. And last there is no way of avoiding the screw terminals block on the Classic itself. So different environments require different solutions.
It's the same way with all the wiring in our sailing yacht - all marine tinned copper. There's a specific specification that wire has to meet and marine surveyors and USCG inspectors are pretty good at finding one wire in the boat that you "cheated" on and didn't use the right wire. If it's in there, they'll find it and write it up.
So true !! A lot of folk try, and some get away with using welding cable for invertor to battery cables on boats.
Great comments on this topic, Chris. And good torque screwdrivers aren't cheap. Any leads on a good quality torque screwdriver at a reasonable cost?
Quote from: Resthome on May 02, 2014, 03:38:42 PM
Great comments on this topic, Chris. And good torque screwdrivers aren't cheap. Any leads on a good quality torque screwdriver at a reasonable cost?
Well, I have to admit that I've always torqued those screws using the "feels tight" test. Stick a screwdriver on it and tighten it up until it feels like it's tight.
After seeing what happened to Mikes bus bar and reading UL486 I'll change my tactics. Those torque specs are published for a reason.
It's easy enough to adapt a screwdriver bit to a beam or click type 3/8" drive torque wrench. Ever seen one of those impact driver screwdrivers? They are usually 3/8" drive on the impact part that you hit with a hammer. The adapter has a 3/8" square drive with usually a hex screwdriver bit that snaps in. That can be put on a 3/8" drive inch-pound torque wrench, even with a 3/8" drive extension if needed to reach inside the box, and apply the proper torque to the screw. And it's fairly economical.
Thanks Chris I though about that also. Would like to have a good quality torque screwdriver just have to get the correct one as they vary as to the range they cover.
Maybe Ryan will pop in here and let us know what model they are using in some of the MN Video. I think they mentioned it in the video but no access to the video here on the boat. Internet connection too slow.
Quote from: Resthome on May 02, 2014, 04:57:11 PM
Thanks Chris I though about that also. Would like to have a good quality torque screwdriver just have to get the correct one as they vary as to the range they cover.
Maybe Ryan will pop in here and let us know what model they are using in some of the MN Video. I think they mentioned it in the video but no access to the video here on the boat. Internet connection too slow.
FWIW I bought one of THESE (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Neiko-1-4-inch-Drive-Torque-Screwdriver-10-50-Inch-Lbs-/151204928024?pt=US_Srewdrivers_Nut_Drivers&hash=item2334841a18) a few years back and have been very happy with it.
Quote from: Resthome on May 02, 2014, 04:57:11 PM
Thanks Chris I though about that also. Would like to have a good quality torque screwdriver just have to get the correct one as they vary as to the range they cover.
Maybe Ryan will pop in here and let us know what model they are using in some of the MN Video. I think they mentioned it in the video but no access to the video here on the boat. Internet connection too slow.
The one mentioned by John in the Midnite video is the Sturtevant Richmont model :
http://www.amazon.com/Sturtevant-Richmont-810587-Limiting-Screwdriver/dp/B00JFL4DYE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1399069171&sr=8-2&keywords=Sturtevant+Richmont
Not cheap but are supposed to be the best out there.
On my last trip to the USA, I went all over trying to find a Torque screwdriver to no avail. I think I will just order the once mtdoc listed from Amazon (especially after seeing this thread).
In addition to its price, the nice thing about the Neiko is it has a long, non metallic shaft and handle. Makes poking it around in my ePanel easy and safe...
Quote from: mtdoc on May 02, 2014, 07:01:27 PM
In addition to its price, the nice thing about the Neiko is it has a long, non metallic shaft and handle. Makes poking it around in my ePanel easy and safe...
Thats good. Do you find it accurate? What is the shaft made out of?
Been looking at this one which is actually a Snap-On tool and has good reviews.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F7VJSE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F7VJSE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER)
So what size breakers *are* on those two wires?
Resthome, can't seem to get that link to work...
Quote from: Westbranch on May 04, 2014, 09:01:46 PM
Resthome, can't seem to get that link to work...
Yeah, that link had it for $107 and appears to be no longer available at that price. There are other places that have it a little cheaper.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F7VJSE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F7VJSE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER)
time to catch up on Q&A.
The cable is a coarse stranded cable (#4)
The toasted wire feeding the battery is #4, from a 3KW PV array. It is protected by a 80A breaker, used as a switch. it has never tripped. No shorts have happened anywhere.
I think this is the likely scenario: My electrician re-used a older cable, cut it in half and tied the middle to the buss bar. He most likely torqued it down properly, likely cutting a couple strands in the process. The wire also most likely had a invisible layer of copper oxide on it's surface, adding to it's resistance. Add time, and 4 years of seasonal thermal cycles, and things went bad.
What I'd like to find out from Midnight, is -
1) is the buss labeled Battery Positive, supposed to have only small loads tied to it ?
2) the big bolt on the 250A DC breaker, are large loads/sources supposed to tie to it ?
How many lugs can fit under it?
3) should there be more sizes of holes/setscrews in the buss to match wires better ?
4) what about a different style of clamp for the wires, setscrew presses on metal plate which locks in the wires?
5) Adding a label, advising annual re-torque of connections ?
Has anyone had any close calls like this in the past, or is this so rare it's not worth a second glance and I should just wash my pants.
Quote from: mike90045 on May 05, 2014, 05:41:02 PM
The toasted wire feeding the battery is #4, from a 3KW PV array. It is protected by a 80A breaker, used as a switch. it has never tripped. No shorts have happened anywhere.
Im confused. PV should either be connected to the PV+ bus or to the controller direct. If by '3kW PV' you mean the output of the charge controller, then, thats usually lugged onto the inverter breaker. Thats a connection you want real nice.
A charge controller tends to put out a spikyish waveform, and can see high sweep surges. It will also confuse the controller having any high resistance points between it and the bank.
ZB, good point... I noted on the attached pic that both the PV in buss and the Batt + buss are the same size...
Quote from: zoneblue on May 05, 2014, 06:50:57 PM
Im confused. PV should either be connected to the PV+ bus or to the controller direct. If by '3kW PV' you mean the output of the charge controller, then, thats usually lugged onto the inverter breaker. Thats a connection you want real nice....
PV comes into a 80A PV breaker, then loops out to the ChgCtrl, back into a 80A breaker, then to the bus labeled
Battery Plus Bus. Now that my 2nd array is installed, it too comes into the box, to a breaker, out to ChgCtrl, back in through a breaker, and then to the Battery Plus Bus too. So now there are 2 controllers feeding the buss. So there is a 2Kw & a 3Kw array feeding the buss (arrays are about 30 degrees offset so they don't peak at the same time). So
there could be 90A on that buss, that then feeds the terminal on the back of the breaker.
So does the Midnight bolt on the breaker, have enough length, to stack 3 lugs under it ? PV1, 2, & a cable to the buss?
Should I run the 3Kw array to the breaker bolt and stack a lug on it to go to the buss ?
MidNite offers the Big Busbar that mounts onto the stud of a large E-frame breaker:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=208&productCatName=Busbars&productCat_ID=17&sortOrder=2&act=p
Not inexpensive, but manly. FWIW, Vic
Quote from: Vic on May 05, 2014, 10:05:34 PM
MidNite offers the Big Busbar that mounts onto the stud of a large E-frame breaker
Not inexpensive, but manly. FWIW, Vic
Now thats a proper bus bar. Where do I get one? can't see it on naws/alte
dgd
Quote from: mike90045 on May 05, 2014, 09:42:09 PM
So does the Midnight bolt on the breaker, have enough length, to stack 3 lugs under it ? PV1, 2, & a cable to the buss?
Should I run the 3Kw array to the breaker bolt and stack a lug on it to go to the buss ?
Yes, the breaker lug is long enough for these and unless you have smaller +ve loads you may not need to bother with that short +ve bus and its #6 cable to the breaker lug.
dgd
Hi dgd,
Thought that I saw it on the NAZW&Sun site about six months ago, but not now. There is a MN Shunt buss, which might be made to work.
Should have mentioned that this large busbar might not fit in all e-panels -- have not tested it in any e-panels.
Vic
Thanks Vic.
I already bought one of those tinned copper plates for the shunt from NAWS. But its just a plate with holes ready for bolts and nuts to take copper ring connections. But I found it just a bit too fiddly to tighten down a nut as the bolt head needed a spanner as well. I didn't use it at the time but since considered threading the holes for s/s bolts.
The Big Busbar appears to have studs making connections fairly easy to do.
dgd
Its a pretty serious post on those breakers. I measure 20mm of thread, of which the nut and washer are about 7mm, that leaves about a half inch. I wouldnt go hanging heaps of lugs off it (for one thing the angles gets interesting), but your two controllers will fit just fine.
Quote from: mike90045 on May 05, 2014, 05:41:02 PM
Has anyone had any close calls like this in the past, or is this so rare it's not worth a second glance and I should just wash my pants.
Not quite the same situation, but a few years ago I stumbled on this:
(http://house.albury.net.au/02aug2008/100_2731.JPG)
Closer look and it was close enough to be a concern:
(http://house.albury.net.au/02aug2008/100_2734.JPG)
Once I cut it open, it was scary close:
(http://house.albury.net.au/02aug2008/100_2741.JPG)
It wasn't touching, but it mustn't have been missing by much! It was on 48V, would have flashed over for sure if it was just an air-gap. I think the melted nylon saved the day, but doubt it would have lasted much longer.
Quote from: Westbranch on April 25, 2014, 12:10:28 AM
John, you're comment made me look... wow, look at the strand #'s on these battery cable s
http://www.cobrawire.com/products/battery.php
found this link by searching for
4 ga SCR SAE J1127, which is my cable I used in rewiring my E-panel
http://standards.sae.org/j1127_201210/
go to the bottom and click on
Energy Storage Systems 14 pages of references....
found this link by searching for 4 ga SCR SAE J1127, which is my cable I used in rewiring my E-panel
http://standards.sae.org/j1127_201210/
go to the bottom and click on Energy Storage Systems 14 pages of references....
[/quote]
WB, were did you find it and how much did it cost?
Walt
4 ga SCR SAE J1127,
I got it at my local NAPA dealer
thank you westbranch, I'll check them out. I've been using tined marine wire without problems but wish to make sure I don't have problems. so I wish to replace the runs to/from the controllers, all short runs .
Quote from: BobWhite on October 06, 2015, 06:01:12 AM
thank you westbranch, I'll check them out. I've been using tined marine wire without problems but wish to make sure I don't have problems. so I wish to replace the runs to/from the controllers, all short runs .
There is nothing wrong with using Marine wire. In fact it is slightly larger than the same wire THN wire. It is more flexable and the tined wires help reduce any chance of the cooper turning that ugly green. Just make sure you tourque them with a tourque screwdriver to Midnite specs.
Quote from: Westbranch on October 05, 2015, 09:22:18 PM
4 ga SCR SAE J1127,
I got it at my local NAPA dealer
SAE Gauging has smaller cross-sectional area than does AWG cable. In the case of #4 Ga SAE, generally it will be approximately 12% smaller, IIRC. That is, AWG cables are larger for the same gauge number, and therefore AWG cables are rated for a bit more current, when using NEC Ampacity tables (am NOT saying that using the smaller SAE cable caused the entoastment of the busbars, though).
In searching for the, " SCR SAE J1127 " cable, it does appear to be Fine, or moderately Fine-Stranded cable.
As has been addressed here previously, believe that Fine Stranded cable is not appropriate for use screw-compression applications -- like on circuit breakers, and screw type busbars.
In general 19-strand THHN/THWN ... etc AWG should suffice for these applications, IMO. And 19 stranding covers a fairly broad range of THHN . . . cable gauges.
On one of the yellow labels in e-panels, there is a reference to using fine stranded cable for battery connections. Ryan has referred to this, BUT, he noted that this was referencing only heavy gauge cables that are the connections to the Main DC breaker, and generally connections to the Inverters, etc. ALL of these fine-stranded connections must use the correct fine-strand lugs.
This is the way that I have read the discussion on this Forum.
FWIW, Vic
Quote from: Vic on October 06, 2015, 04:11:53 PM
Quote from: Westbranch on October 05, 2015, 09:22:18 PM
4 ga SCR SAE J1127,
I got it at my local NAPA dealer
SAE Gauging has smaller cross-sectional area than does AWG cable. In the case of #4 Ga SAE, generally it will be approximately 12% smaller, IIRC. That is, AWG cables are larger for the same gauge number, and therefore AWG cables are rated for a bit more current, when using NEC Ampacity tables (am NOT saying that using the smaller SAE cable caused the entoastment of the busbars, though).
In searching for the, " SCR SAE J1127 " cable, it does appear to be Fine, or moderately Fine-Stranded cable.
As has been addressed here previously, believe that Fine Stranded cable is not appropriate for use screw-compression applications -- like on circuit breakers, and screw type busbars.
In general 19-strand THHN/THWN ... etc AWG should suffice for these applications, IMO. And 19 stranding covers a fairly broad range of THHN . . . cable gauges.
On one of the yellow labels in e-panels, there is a reference to using fine stranded cable for battery connections. Ryan has referred to this, BUT, he noted that this was referencing only heavy gauge cables that are the connections to the Main DC breaker, and generally connections to the Inverters, etc. ALL of these fine-stranded connections must use the correct fine-strand lugs.
This is the way that I have read the discussion on this Forum.
FWIW, Vic
Quote from: Resthome on October 06, 2015, 01:13:51 PM
Quote from: BobWhite on October 06, 2015, 06:01:12 AM
thank you westbranch, I'll check them out. I've been using tined marine wire without problems but wish to make sure I don't have problems. so I wish to replace the runs to/from the controllers, all short runs .
There is nothing wrong with using Marine wire. In fact it is slightly larger than the same wire THN wire. It is more flexable and the tined wires help reduce any chance of the cooper turning that ugly green. Just make sure you tourque them with a tourque screwdriver to Midnite specs.
you guys are the best!!
Vic,
While I respect your opinion. It is the application that is important. On boats such as mine Marine wire is dictated by the USCG as are the use of ring lugs. The only place I have screw terminals is at the Midnite Classic and at the din rail breakers in the Midnite combiner. In the case of the combiner those breakers terminate the solar panel extension cables and are tourqued to MidNite specifications. At the Classic it is 6 ga Marine wire with the ends tined and again tourque to MidNite specs with a Snap-On tourque screwdriver. I don't over panel the Classic. The panels are a total of 1400 watts. Given all the variables probably get 70-80% of that.
I agree with you that screw type terminal on buss bars should be avoided for high current carrying cables.
IMHO there is nothing wrong with Marine type cables if used with the appropriate lugs and crimped correctly. My Ancor crimpper double crimps the Ancor marine lugs.
Is there a breaker between the charge controller and buss?
Could you upload an image of entire wiring inside the epanel?
this might be the best you are going to find... http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/epanelManual.pdf
also look at the videos.... how to ... http://www.midnitesolar.com/videoDisplay.php
hth
Quote from: Westbranch on December 26, 2016, 02:37:22 PM
this might be the best you are going to find... http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/epanelManual.pdf
also look at the videos.... how to ... http://www.midnitesolar.com/videoDisplay.php
hth
Am not quite sure what you are asking, but here is a Pictorial Wiring Diagram, fairly generic for e-panels:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/classic_simple_flow_diagram.pdf
FWIW, Vic
Facebook only works for those who have a FB account .
I don't or would have one .
I also check the torque of all my set screws every time im opening up a cover .
I use safety glasses and power down .
I find my studded battery terminials also need a check & they move 1/2 flat or one hex .
VT