Some time ago, I posted something regarding beta KIDs being available on the forum here. The time has arrived. We got our first board stuffed last night so once Mario gets it all checked out, we will be building 100 beta units. A couple dozen of these will be made available to the Forum users. The retail price is estimated to be $399. We will also have a white Marine version available for $499 or so.
That means the street prices should be about $290 and $360 respectively from NAWS. Since I think some of the best feedback will be coming from people on the forum, we will extend the price of $200 for the KID and $250 for the Marine KIDs. This is definitely a one time limited offer. Production Kids are going to be very limited for the first few months and dealers will be allocated only a certain amount. The beta units will have all the same hardware as the production units. The beta units will not have all the firmware that we expect to have for production units in January. We do expect that the KID firmware will be upgradeable with a drag and drop feature. (Andrew in France is still working on that). The beta KIDs do come with a lifetime warranty as compared to the regular warranty of two years.
If anyone is interested in acquiring one of these KIDs, then please e-mail bo@midnitesolar.com to get on the list. We will be asking for your input, bad or good as to what you think of the KID. All comments will be taken seriously of course as we want this to become the best little controller on the planet. With your help, we can make that happen. Morningstar, OutBack, Xantrex etc, please do not apply. You will have to wait and buy one on the open market.
Robin ,
I am very interested in purchasing a beta kid controller, I have tried several low end medium power MPPT controllers in the past and am ready for much better technology. I have just purchased a Classic 150 from NAWS and am very pleased with its performance. I have multiple Tracer (Biejing EP Solar Technology Co) MPPT controllers in California and one in Alaska and would like to replace them with American made units for more versatility. Thanks for this offer.
Kind regards, David
I am aware of the Tracer. We should probably get one to see what we are up against. Where did you get yours?
MN,
I would like one of those beta kids too.
Damani
Robin,
You can get those tracer on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/TRACER-3215RN-Solar-Charge-Controller/dp/B008KWPGAE/ref=pd_cp_hi_0
Cheers...
Damani
Just a reminder. Make sure you Email bo@midnitesolar.com and tell him you want to be on the Forum Beta list for the KID
Ryan
Robin,
I bought my Tracers on Amazon Sain Store , Storm Store and Nature's Electric . I would recommend Sain Store. The Tracer is maybe the best of the Chinese but it has fixed settings for battery type with no setting for L-16 type leaving my batteries undercharged, and dismal support.
I am willing to loan you one for evaluation. I have the tracer 3215RN, 30 amp 150 volt, 12/24 volt, 390/780 watt and the 4210RN, 40 amp, 100 volt, 12/24 volt, 500/1000 watt units.
I paid about $190. For the 3215RN which I have been using for 2 years which replaced a BZ 500.
It has way more heat sinking than the BZ. The Tracer is well built with large toroids and robust construction but pales in comparison to my Classic 150.
They were designed as street light controllers using 2 thin film panels at 68 volts with a 24 volt gel battery and an LED streetlight and LED controller all on the streetlight pole. They are optimized for this configuration. Reading their manual you will find sections copied from Morningstar's manual including the battery charge profiles.......clone?
This is what led me to these controllers as I am using CdTe thin film panels at 68 volts and many less expensive controllers cannot handle the 92 v.o.c. at STC of thin films including the B-Z.
David
Will the Beta Kids have MyMidnite or Local Status App support ?
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on November 17, 2013, 10:58:26 AM
Will the Beta Kids have MyMidnite or Local Status App support ?
The Kids do not have Ethernet on board. They do speak serial data so some one could take that data and make it do something. We have talked about building an interface for the Kid so it could speak to My Midnite or the Local App. Not sure how much demand there is for it?
I for one ;D, will take the liberty of speaking for the group of 'data junkies' ::) that inhabit this 3 rd realm (MN forum), and I would bet there are a lot of other folks that would like to see what the Kid can (really) do...
Quote from: Westbranch on November 17, 2013, 01:44:50 PM
I for one ;D, will take the liberty of speaking for the group of 'data junkies ::) that inhabit this 3 rd realm (MN forum), and I would bet there are a lot of other folks that would like to see what the Kid can (really) do...
Oh, yeah. The logging addiction is widespread. I put in my Kid beta request and I will be messing with logging from it if I manage to get a unit. :o
Tom
Quote from: Halfcrazy on November 17, 2013, 01:36:44 PM
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on November 17, 2013, 10:58:26 AM
Will the Beta Kids have MyMidnite or Local Status App support ?
The Kids do not have Ethernet on board. They do speak serial data so some one could take that data and make it do something. We have talked about building an interface for the Kid so it could speak to My Midnite or the Local App. Not sure how much demand there is for it?
What flavor of serial data do they serve up? (ie what protocol?)
I am not sure Mario has any data stream leaving his stacking port yet other than stacking data. This will be a question for MArio. I have heard that you will be able to put the KID in follow me mode with a Classic though. That means the hardware is capable of it. We do not anticipate adding Ethernet to the KID. This is a source of huge support issues. The price of the KID is low enough that support for the local app type of applications is out of the question,. That said....Ryan eluded to an outboard box being able to do this. I do not know if we will build this interface or if it will be a Raspberry Pie type of device or just what? We are so focused on just getting the basic KID to market, all that will have to wait. I suspect that only a very small percentage of people will use data logging to this level. We will make sure it is not forgotten, but that type of feature is not going to be used for the main market of the KID. Don't worry, you folks will scream at us enough that we will eventually do what you want. That is why we are offering the beta Classics here.
Tom, we will be sending you one ASAP. You will need it to help respond to questions here.
I will ask Mario to get involved in this thread. He can answer all the techie questions much better than Ryan and I.
Does this help?
Robin
A BIG thanks for the detail Robin, waiting patiently. ::)
Yes, much thanks Robin!
Quote from: mtdoc on November 17, 2013, 03:15:36 PM
What flavor of serial data do they serve up? (ie what protocol?)
Or does the KID have internal Modbus registers so that serial port modbus commands can extract data?
..and an AUX port :)
dgd
It does have an Aux output/Input but it does not have Modbus
Ryan
I would like to get comments on using a Kid to keep a 12 volt battery charged from the main 24 volt system. The alternatives to get 12 volts are to have separate panels feeding the Kid, to have an AC power supply run from the main inverter make 12v, or to use some kind of 24 to 12 voltage converter.
The advantages I see to using a Kid to charge directly from a larger pack is that it may be more flexible considering setpoints. Right now I am using a smaller Morningstar MPPT sunsaver with some panels on it . I believe I at first tried to use it to charge off the 24v pack but gave up on it for some reason - either inefficiency or it made too much noise on the ham radio's.
I think there are a few guys on the forum here that are capable of making the interface and software for the KID. I would be happy to help push customers to anyone here that wants to take on the task of techie data stuff. We could do it, but I do not know if the return would justify the project? I am trying to get the engineers off their current projects and onto the inverters we have planned. That will require the entire engineering department, so anyone that wants to make a serious effort to accommodate the data/internet issue will get all the help needed from MidNite.
Robin
Quote from: Robin on November 17, 2013, 03:42:14 PM
We do not anticipate adding Ethernet to the KID. This is a source of huge support issues. The price of the KID is low enough that support for the local app type of applications is out of the question,.
Robin, can i offer another view... These days everything talks internet, the phrase for it is 'the internet of things'. I would say that the reason for the support issues with the classics ethernet is due to the implementation more than anything. If a 50 dollar wifi router can do it in a mature nearly "average householder proof" manner then it cant be an engineering road block per se. CAI webcontrol has a web interface, again under $50. I know this a generational thing, but internet conectivity is here to stay. New products should be forward looking.
QuoteThat said....Ryan eluded to an outboard box being able to do this. I do not know if we will build this interface or if it will be a Raspberry Pie type of device or just what? ...
This is certainly a route to consider. I know you are developing more products, inverters, etc, does it make sense to equip each device with ethernet, sd cards, and all that , when a central device could manage data? At that point you end up with a blackbox / schneider com box style of thing, that does make sense to me of course.
Based on a couple of other users experience, I havent tried to use the classic's serial port. But i certainly will do so. There are pluses and minuses to ethernet. Isolation, easy to plural, ubitquitous. The main down side from my POV is the half watt of so that they draw.
But then the requirement becomes providing a rock solid interconnection protocol / port for the device. Something that works with linux. Open etc.
Quote
I suspect that only a very small percentage of people will use data logging to this level. We will make sure it is not forgotten, but that type of feature is not going to be used for the main market of the KID. Don't worry, you folks will scream at us enough that we will eventually do what you want.
Well, you asked.
I completely agree with ZBs posting above.. but it seems that the KID has progressed so far that retro fitting or redesigning the hw to add an ethernet port is probably not realistic.
So its the serial port and what it can provide. No modbus registers to dump :o So is Mario looking at some sort of continuous data dump or possibly a command line interface with initially (hopefully) a command to dump the Input V, Battery V, Output Watts, Output amps and KWhr count for today.
Those would be enough for me, then the RPi (or whatever) can do the web interface, local app clone, data gathering for reporting junkies etc..
dgd
OK Robin said "I have heard that you will be able to put the KID in follow me mode with a Classic though. That means the hardware is capable of it. We do not anticipate adding Ethernet to the KID."
so following along with what ZB and dgd stated, a slightly different scenario to getting Kid data
will the mentioned items be available from a Kid in Follow Me mode with a Classic , through the Classic?
I have to assume this is a realistic possibility, to use access through the Classic to get at the Kids data?
I do not think that getting to Kid data from the Classic is possible.
The KID is an inexpensive controller. The potential profit from it is very small. Adding internet and supporting it is just out of the question. A router has nothing to do with it. The cost for Ethernet components is about $5.00 plus the real estate. We have no real estate left on the KID circuit board. The support for internet connectivity would add another full time person or two. The only way we would ever add Ethernet would be if a large potential user like a Telcom company or the military or the like requested it. We have discussed adding it. To add internet, we would have to add a dedicated circuit board for that purpose. We would have to redesign the main board and add connectors on every single KID in anticipation of selling the Ethernet board. All this stuff is very expensive to put into production. The KID will retail for $399. If we were to add the capability to upgrade to Ethernet, it would probably have to retail for $415. The Ethernet board would retail for close to $100. This would take Mario months to do. There is a good reason that there are no 30 amp Ethernet equipped charge controllers on the market. Heck, other than Morningstar's 60 amp unit, nobody does this. I still like the idea of a RPi doing all of this Ethernet stuff. We have to consider the entire picture of what percentage of KID customers would ever hook it up to the internet. That percentage is extremely small. So, let's figure out how to get this done externally. It will be important how Mario does the data output though. I will get him to chime in so you all can have a say in things. Another thing we have to consider.......If we added Ethernet to the KID and now it had a retail price of $500, that is only $200 less than the Classic Lite. The Classic Lite is in a whole different league and since it has more than twice the power, it is very hard to justify adding the expense to the KID.
It is entirely possible that some big project will come our way that will force the issue though. We had to turn down 400 KIDS for an Australian project due to the lack of Ethernet. That is the kind of thing that may push things your way.
Thanks,
Robin
One other thing I would like to mention after having gone back to read some of this thread.....We will be building hundreds of KIDs per month. Maybe a thousand or two depending on how it is received in the market. The router and other devices that have Ethernet are mass produced in China by the millions. That isn't a fair fight. If we had to produce millions, things would be quite different.
Midnite
I am happy with the kids as is. It would nice to see it on my power dash but that is not absolutely necessary. I would be pleased to have a rock solid mid range cc. I looked at the best offering from china the tracer from eps. The total cost of the 30a controller and optional display is $250 which is not to faroff from the street price of the kids that has its own display built in. All in all I am looking forward to receiving a beta unit or two. I am also looking forward to get a few brats as well. At the end of the day I will have a big Midnite family...kids, brats and maybeba whiskers and a fido.
Cheers...
Damani
I see 3 possibilities here.
1- Midnite makes a box similar to the Schneider Com box. This will likely be the way we need to go with all the new gear coming to market. If we do this that box can talk to the Kid and walla.
2- Some enterprising individual will write some code that takes say a Raspberry PI or Beagle Bone Black or what have you and get the serial data from the Kid and then offer it out as Modbus to the Local App. If said individual was to be interested we would support them 1000% and offer all the help we have including the needed info to make the Local App talk to it. The individual would then sell this device or code and profit from there work
3- We start an open source section and we all put our heads together and build the code talked about above. We would still offer all the Midnite support available to make this work.
Ryan
Robin, dapdan, and the group,
I am with dapdan on his comments, I have several Tracer units from EP Solar and although they are good there are huge shortcomings. If you are using costco deep cycle or gel or sealed batteries ok well enough, they will work well enough but if you want T-105's or L-16's they will not top off your batteries leaving you with undercharged, sulfated cells. There are no user adjustable settings at all. User support is non existent, well they are consistent, the answer to any question is how many units do you want? Their engineers do not even know what a RE battery is.
I did pay about $240 each with the remote display and programmer panel. It was not worth it in comparison to the $610 I paid for the Classic. The Tracers are no deal, they are very basic and a good starting point but there is a point when you will need to protect the rest of your system. My L-16 bank of 4 batteries are about $1200 at a real good deal and even better at $950 that I paid. I bought the classic to protect my investment and free my time to do other things than tend my batteries.
I would have rather have bought kid's and have something that will last. I am only assuming that the kid will be user programmable in the same fashion as the Classic, at least able to set charge rates and voltages to suit the batteries used in PV systems.
In defense of EP Solar , they are a streetlight company, that is their focus. The Tracer was designed to power a LED streetlight from 68 volt thin film panels using 24 volt gel batteries, they do that well, but they were not designed to power houses, cabins etc. off grid.
I will be buying a kid to take to my cabin in Alaska where I am 18 miles from town and no grid in sight. I need basic functions, lots of reliability, an active user support group and little else. If it works well I do not need to know every little detail. I'd rather be fishing.
David
The Kid has the same program-ability as the classic. All charging set points are infinitely adjustable.
Ryan
Ryan,
That is wonderful news, my Classic has replaced three Tracers without a problem even though I have a mixed bag of panels. I am still monitoring my system daily to recover my batteries to top condition, I can program a real charge profile for my L-16 bank thus saving me the worry of them having a short life. My system in Alaska is 500 watts with 2 paralleled 12 volt gel batteries. My worries there are the batteries freezing in the winter, I am not there for months at a time so something real reliable is a must. I waited a year to budget the Classic and have had in use for only 6 days. I am looking forward to replacing my last Tracer with a kid.
David
Robin,
I need to update you on "there are no 30 amp cc with Ethernet" EP Solar has designed the eTracer which does have that capability. The eTracer is similar to the Tracer in many ways in that is very basic but it now has user programmable charge rates. It is available in 20 , 30 , 45 , and 60 amp battery charge rates and 150 volts max input. Model numbers are ET2415N, ET3415N, ET4415N, and ET6415N. They have RS-232 serial, EIA-485 CAN BUS, and Ethernet ports. Their manual has large portions copied from Morningstar's manual for the TS-MPPT 45 and 60. I suspect the whole unit is a reverse engineered product.
Their MPPT sweep takes 15 seconds on the Tracer and this number is mentioned in the eTracer manual as well. I have seen this with a Snap-on MT-540 Automotive Alternator analyzer which has 8" analog voltmeter and ammeter and carbon pile load tester. I have repurposed this unit as a solar panel tester.
The prices on Amazon are not competitive compared to what you get. The ET6415N is $489, only a few bucks less than the Morningstar. I inquired about the product and got the same dismal response.
No technical expertise, just how many units do you want. They are not concerned with the end user.
I paid about $125 more and got a much better unit in the Classic. These units are now on Amazon listed as the "Rio-Rand" at $349 for 20 amp, $399 for 30 and 45 amp and $489 for 60 amp
I hope you find this information useful
Gone fishing, David
The Kid seems right up my ally. A simple controller that knows how to do its job.
The Classics I have do their job very well too. I don't use half their capabilities. I check them twice a day to see how many Kwh's are used and to see the batteries are on float at the day's end. I've worked on ambient air monitoring instruments and loggers for 25 years. Now I'm getting a little break. If the kid is simple to operate and needs its functionality tested, I'm in. I also have 5,700 watts of new solar panels on their way that would make a good test bed for a kid or two in combination with 2 additional Classics I just bought.
David, the prices you mentioned for the E tracers are pretty high. I suspect the KID will have a street price of $295 or so. It doesn't have Ethernet, but then it doesn't have the price tag for it either. $399 for a 30 amp Chinese controller with no support and no way to collect on a warranty is not a good deal in my mind. A Classic Lite isn't that much more than the E Tracer and the Lite has tons more capability and power. I am glad that this is one area where the Chinese aren't taking over yet. It isn't easy competing with American companies that have their products built in China, Taiwan, India and Mexico, let alone Chinese companies selling directly into the US. We just have to take it in the shorts and make very little profit, so your support is very much appreciated.
Robin
Hello everyone, it seems like there is a lot of interest on the kid and its capabilities, mostly in communications.
So I will start by saying that it does have a UART port and it is standard RS232, but the protocol its custom, I couldn't find a tiny protocol to make it fast enough to be able to do parallel inputs and outputs (True Paralleling).
Since the kid only has a single real hardware UART (well besides the one I had to simulate in software to be able to talk only to the WBJR)
if someone wants to do real time monitoring they will to give up the stacking port, I have a plan to be able to gather data through this port as mentioned before if someone will take their time to write a program I can help on getting the support needed.
I will have to say, right now the top priority is to build a though reliable charger and getting it on the Market.
The KiD
Mario R.
Thanks for the info Mario.
Looking forward to getting my hands on one!
As per Robins original post
http://midniteforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1500.0;attach=1900
Nicko, please e-mail bo@midnitesolar.com
He is taking care of all the beta unit details.
Thanks Robin,
Have done. Also got the spec's on the Marine options.
Thanks Very Much, Keep up the good work.
Cheers
Mark.
The Marine versions will list for $100 more than the regular Kid and therefore are not as good of a deal. We do spend quite a lot of money for the extra parts related to the Marine Kid, but in most cases, you would not want to incur the extra cost. Then again, the KID looks pretty good on a yacht. This picture is from Tom Carpenter's boat in New Zealand. He now has it mounted. Tom says the blue LCD display is very hard to read on his boat. We are now testing other colors of LCD's that have black letters rather than a blue background with white letters. I really like the blue background. The first 100 beta units will have blue LCD's. I am getting one of them for myself. Now all I need is a yacht!
Robin,
I agree with you about the price for the eTracer, way too high for what you get. I had considered the 60 amp version but for the few dollars difference it was dismissed pretty early in the consideration. In my opinion the Morningstar TS MPPT 60 and the MidNite Classic 150 were the only choices for me. The total programmability of the Classic, 50% more power, and the possibility of sources of input other than solar was the final deciding factor. My system is working much better now that I can set the controller to match my choice of battery bank. I am harvesting about 20% more power than the Tracers (3) due to the matching to the battery bank.
Thanks for taking the time to design such a thoroughly thought out product.
David
Im game for beta testing
Midnite,
Have these beta kids shipped as yet?
Damani
Quote from: Mario on November 20, 2013, 12:24:12 PM
Hello everyone, it seems like there is a lot of interest on the kid and its capabilities, mostly in communications.
So I will start by saying that it does have a UART port and it is standard RS232, but the protocol its custom, I couldn't find a tiny protocol to make it fast enough to be able to do parallel inputs and outputs (True Paralleling).
Since the kid only has a single real hardware UART (well besides the one I had to simulate in software to be able to talk only to the WBJR)
if someone wants to do real time monitoring they will to give up the stacking port, I have a plan to be able to gather data through this port as mentioned before if someone will take their time to write a program I can help on getting the support needed.
I will have to say, right now the top priority is to build a though reliable charger and getting it on the Market.
Mario,
re: the stacking port, I assumed the pins were just the standard serial port configuration as on the Classic serial ports. So listening on that port there is nothing being output.
I was thinking that if a data stream, not continuous but perhaps every half to one second, with input volts and amps, batt volts and output amps, perhaps watts and kw/hrs and maybe a status byte or two for all the flags info and mode and error info and whatever, could be output then a listening rPi (et al) could probably do enough real time displaying of data/modes and gather data over time. Time and date stamping would be rPi to make meaningful reports.
Is the KID cpu/memory/uart capable of this? and is there any chance or this being available in a firmware update?
dgd
Quote from: dgd on January 16, 2014, 03:09:00 AM
Quote from: Mario on November 20, 2013, 12:24:12 PM
Hello everyone, it seems like there is a lot of interest on the kid and its capabilities, mostly in communications.
So I will start by saying that it does have a UART port and it is standard RS232, but the protocol its custom, I couldn't find a tiny protocol to make it fast enough to be able to do parallel inputs and outputs (True Paralleling).
Since the kid only has a single real hardware UART (well besides the one I had to simulate in software to be able to talk only to the WBJR)
if someone wants to do real time monitoring they will to give up the stacking port, I have a plan to be able to gather data through this port as mentioned before if someone will take their time to write a program I can help on getting the support needed.
I will have to say, right now the top priority is to build a though reliable charger and getting it on the Market.
Mario,
re: the stacking port, I assumed the pins were just the standard serial port configuration as on the Classic serial ports. So listening on that port there is nothing being output.
I was thinking that if a data stream, not continuous but perhaps every half to one second, with input volts and amps, batt volts and output amps, perhaps watts and kw/hrs and maybe a status byte or two for all the flags info and mode and error info and whatever, could be output then a listening rPi (et al) could probably do enough real time displaying of data/modes and gather data over time. Time and date stamping would be rPi to make meaningful reports.
Is the KID cpu/memory/uart capable of this? and is there any chance or this being available in a firmware update?
dgd
dgd,
at the moment the kid does not output anything though the serial port unless it is hooked up to a second unit and Comm is enabled in the menu, that being said if a single kid is in the system then you will be able to see what it is doing, yes all this that you are saying will be available with a firmware update when it is done.
Actually the way it will work is that there will be a list of variables(Vbatt,Pvvoltage,KWH... etc. still TBD) and you will connect to the kid serial and send a special command that will get you access to pull those variables out. so this way if some one is just interested in a single variable in specific then they can just get it, and the frequency will be faster for a single variable.
Will keep you posted as progress on this Marches on.
Mario R
Mario,
I know you are real busy working on the KID firmware but can I ask if there are more AUX output options coming soon? I would be very interested in a FLOAT high and a PV high option.
My beta KID works good :)
and can I ask what are the hieroglyphics on upper left corner when looking at rear of KID
dgd
Also just looking at that two line display.
The main status has what I assume is output current and battery voltage. I'm not sure how relevant the long text saying BULKMPPT is as the various modes could probably be abbreviated to three letters, BLK, FLT, ABS and EQ. And the work SOLAR I assume is the operating mode the KID is in. Again not sure this is needed as there are no other modes available yet and probably most KIDs will be in solar mode anyway.
The other data is Watts (V*A).
What I would suggest is the addition of Kw/Hr figure as well. Although thinking about this I suspect that without a clock in the KID then resetting Kw/hr on a daily basis would be not trivial to achieve. If there is no rtc device in the KID then is the cpu capable of timekeeping?
Is input current available?
dgd
Quote from: dgd on January 26, 2014, 03:08:55 AM
What I would suggest is the addition of Kw/Hr figure as well. Although thinking about this I suspect that without a clock in the KID then resetting Kw/hr on a daily basis would be not trivial to achieve
I don't think you really mean Kw/Hr. I think you mean kilowatts or kilowattHours.
Kw/Hr is the rate at which your production of kilowatts is changing per hour. For solar production, it usually starts out positive in the morning (as production ramps up) and then goes negative during the afternoon.
--vtMaps
ok, Daily energy produced kWh...
Did I also read somewhere that there may be a possibility of connecting an MNGP to the KID?
dgd
..sorry, more questions.
I power cycled my KID and the settings had to be reentered. No flash or battery backed memory in it?
The Absorb setting was at 0.0v so I reset it to 29V, then Float was at 28.9 so I reset it to 27.4 then EQ was at 29.5v I could only move this down as it would not allow setting over 29.5V. I wanted 31v.
Also could not get SOLAR mode to restart. Powered on KID, waited a minute then closed breaker to PVs.
Input voltage on second screen showed 94v but KID stayed in RESTING and never moved to BULKMPPT.
Is there some sort of delay built in before leaving RESTING?
It stayed in RESTING until sun went down 2 hours later :(
dgd
DGD
I will ask Mario to jump in here when he gets up. But he can also be reached at mario@midnitesolar.com
That is an odd one as the kid does remember all settings so I wonder what happened?
Ryan
Quote from: Halfcrazy on January 27, 2014, 06:29:37 AM
DGD
That is an odd one as the kid does remember all settings so I wonder what happened?
Ryan
Mine retains the setting thru a power cycle. In fact it kept them after being powered down for a couple hours while I did some conduit / cable upgrades.
Tom
DGD
The Kid is slightly different than the classic in that you do not push Enter to save the data there is a "Save" button (Top right button) is it possible the settings where never committed to memory by pressing Save?
Ryan
Quote from: dgd on January 27, 2014, 04:37:04 AM
..sorry, more questions.
I power cycled my KID and the settings had to be reentered. No flash or battery backed memory in it?
The Absorb setting was at 0.0v so I reset it to 29V, then Float was at 28.9 so I reset it to 27.4 then EQ was at 29.5v I could only move this down as it would not allow setting over 29.5V. I wanted 31v.
dgd, did you go thought the start up set up, where it guesses the Battery voltage and asks you for the Absorb, Float and EQ voltages?
if you did you have to go all the way to the end of the set up and the kid will save those settings automatically.
The start up set up is a must because there are some other internal variables that get set and affect the MPPT and wake up of the unit.
here is what you need to do: Do a factory reset on the kid and see if your changes get saved after a power cycle.
Quote from: dgd on January 27, 2014, 04:37:04 AM
Also could not get SOLAR mode to restart. Powered on KID, waited a minute then closed breaker to PVs.
Input voltage on second screen showed 94v but KID stayed in RESTING and never moved to BULKMPPT.
Is there some sort of delay built in before leaving RESTING?
It stayed in RESTING until sun went down 2 hours later :(
dgd
So on the old code I believe after a power cycle the kid used to wait like 30 sec before trying to produce power. now on the latest code it should be like 15 sec.
One thing That I have seen on why the kid sometimes refuses to wake up is Calibration, can you go to the Tech Menu and check the Battery and the Input voltages vs a fluke (or reliable) meter if they are off please calibrate them and see if that's the problem with your kid.
Mario
Thanks for your replies guys...
This morning sun is out bright from about 8am. Its now just gone 10am and the KID is still in RESTING mode with 106v pv input from 700W array. My C150 with 2.1 Kw array is producing near 2Kw power.
The KID is also continuously clicking a relay, not as loud as a Classic relay but very audible.
So I opened the breaker to PVs and clicking stopped and input voltage dropped to about 13v.
Closing breaker, waited and clicking restarted.
So shut power off KID and left off about 10 minutes while I checked all wiring to it and array. All ok.
Powered KID on but this time did a factory reset and re-entered all the voltage setups plus save.
Closed PV breaker and up went input voltage to 103v. No relay clicking but after 18 seconds the KID moved into BULKMPPT mode with 416W input.
So I'm not sure what I did to the KID to get it into the clicking mode and stuck RESTING. I was relocating one of the PVs on the frame yesterday and I'm not sure if I shorted the PV input on that panel which may then have caused a spike on the KID PV input.
Anyways, thanks again and I will keep monitoring it.
dgd
Quote from: dgd on January 27, 2014, 04:25:44 PM
Thanks for your replies guys...
This morning sun is out bright from about 8am. Its now just gone 10am and the KID is still in RESTING mode with 106v pv input from 700W array. My C150 with 2.1 Kw array is producing near 2Kw power.
The KID is also continuously clicking a relay, not as loud as a Classic relay but very audible.
So I opened the breaker to PVs and clicking stopped and input voltage dropped to about 13v.
Closing breaker, waited and clicking restarted.
So shut power off KID and left off about 10 minutes while I checked all wiring to it and array. All ok.
Powered KID on but this time did a factory reset and re-entered all the voltage setups plus save.
Closed PV breaker and up went input voltage to 103v. No relay clicking but after 18 seconds the KID moved into BULKMPPT mode with 416W input.
So I'm not sure what I did to the KID to get it into the clicking mode and stuck RESTING. I was relocating one of the PVs on the frame yesterday and I'm not sure if I shorted the PV input on that panel which may then have caused a spike on the KID PV input.
Anyways, thanks again and I will keep monitoring it.
dgd
dgd,
Can you make sure that the Input and battery voltage match to an external DMM. let me know how close are they?
go to the Tech menu and calibrate the kid if needed.
I would like to know if the unit cot calibrated here at the shop before leaving.
Mario
In plain Solar Input mode, I hear the relay pick up, and then there are additional ticking sounds, if it is the relay ticking perhaps the relay is not given enough time to fully change state before it is again activated ...
I had wondered if that ticking could be the Inductor in the Converter (?).
Have my Kid now just connected to an old 100 W PV -- 17.7 Vmp @ 5.6 A Imp.
The sun has been full, to medium density clouds.
My battery V is set to 12 (correct), and the batteries would take some charge -- had set Vabs to an EQ V 15.5), as that is what the batts really want.
I COULD connect the main PV array to the Kid, but its Vmp @ 106 V, am a bit reluctant ..
FW= 1704.1 from memory.
Just my observations ... FWIW, Vic
Mario,
Checked input and battery voltages with Fluke and input voltage is 2.2 volts low on KID at 89.6v whereas PV volts is 91.8, and and battery voltage is 0.2 volt at 27.4 on battery and 27.2 on KID
I disconnected two of my 5 panels to the kid so there is a string of three and PV volts is 51.6 and KID is showing 49.4 or 2.2v low.
I tweaked the battery voltage correct but after 30 minutes it was reading .1v high so had to adjust tweak to 0.1v I also noticed that although the PV voltage on Fluke remains steady the voltage on the KID display seems to slowly drift upwards. Now 90.2 on KID and 91.8 on Fluke.
It slowly drifted upwards until KID went into ABSORB
The PV voltage difference is more interesting. I will be changing some cables later today but I doubt there is any issues as I use #4 from PVs to just before KID where 6mm cable goes into KID. Its at this join I fluke the input voltage.
KID is working good now, I think the factory reset sorted it. It just followed C150 into ABSORB at exactly 29v.
dgd
One thing I noticed on the KID temperature compensation menu is that it only changes by increments of 5 . My battery manufacturer called for -3 mv . Not sure how much difference that would really make though.
The temperature compensation does seem to be working . I have to watch it remotely via telemetry . It is minus 15 F inside with the batteries now. Yesterday was clear sunlight and the batteries went up to 14.7 before going to float at 13.8 . Right now I don't remember what exact setpoint I put for the absorb voltage. I know the Classic will bring the lead acid batteries up to around equivalent 15 V on a cold day like that.
Here is the graph
http://aprs.fi/telemetry/a/WT9M-8
Quote from: Vic on January 27, 2014, 05:12:35 PM
I COULD connect the main PV array to the Kid, but its Vmp @ 106 V, am a bit reluctant ..
FW= 1704.1 from memory.
Just my observations ... FWIW, Vic
Vic
Unless the VOC is over 150 I would not worry about it. Of course I would want to make sure the wattage was not to over sized for the Kid but it limits pretty darn well on amperage
Ryan
Vic
Unless the VOC is over 150 I would not worry about it. Of course I would want to make sure the wattage was not to over sized for the Kid but it limits pretty darn well on amperage. Ryan
[/quote]
Hi Ryan,
Thanks, Well the startup issue with this Kid COULD possibly be that these L-16 batteries are nine years old, and if there is much peak current required to start the Kid, possibly these old batts do not have it in them. They really do need an EQ, and a couple of cycles. Have stolen the charger used on this bank for another use elsewhere, and the Auto style charger cannot do an EQ.
If time permits, will try the Kid on the 3.15 KW STC array and the 48 V bank ... will try to choose a day with some overcast. Or could go onto the roof and switch off half of the PVs.
More later, rain is forecast here. Thanks, will advise. Vic
The FW on my Kid is 1704.1
Leagcy P&O works pretty well. The Power out and Current reported is off by a factor of about 8 right now. Reports about 20 - 30 W, and really it is producing 8 - 12 times that amount, when measured with a Clamp DC ammeter which is fairly accurate.
Solar mode just ticks, and the CC needs to be rested after this ticking for about 10 or more minutes, else, when repowered after the ticking behavior, the CC will do nothing when it has been switched to another Input mode.
Expect that some or all of this may well have been corrected in FW already.
Have needed more solar power today, so have not tried using the main array and 48 V bank on the Kid, to see if that is more to the Kid's liking. In order to try this configuration, will need to change out a BabyBox to the BigBaby, for more room, that necessitates other changes ... it is never nothin', is it?
Some of the curious behavior that had been seeing was due to not letting the Kid rest after a Ticking event.
Am getting more used to the Menu structure of the Kid. Some great work has been done engineering this product! Thanks, Vic
Mario,
Beta KID #28
Firmware version 1703
I have been away since last night and was able to monitor my solar classic 150 remotely. This morning it was obvious, using the new WBjr display part of the Classic showing the battery amps that only the Classic was charging the battery bank
Hot warm day no clouds and PVs well alight.
When I got to the KID it was in a strange locked up mode with only the top row of the display showing white block characters, the bottom row was blank. Pressing any of the keys made no difference, all dead.
No current from PVs to Battery bank so Fluke showed.
I thought I could hear an almost imperceptible relay clicking sound but can't be sure.
I reset the KID, power cycled, and it started up. Within a second or so BULKMPPT with 545 watts and a couple seconds later 29V ABSORB with 350 watts.
This is the highest reported wattage I have seen for some time as 125 watts was the highest despite there being a 700watt array in bright sunshine
The KID was RESTING when I left it yesterday evening.
just FYI ;D
dgd
Quote from: dgd on January 30, 2014, 07:30:45 PM
Mario,
Beta KID #28
Firmware version 1703
I have been away since last night and was able to monitor my solar classic 150 remotely. This morning it was obvious, using the new WBjr display part of the Classic showing the battery amps that only the Classic was charging the battery bank
Hot warm day no clouds and PVs well alight.
When I got to the KID it was in a strange locked up mode with only the top row of the display showing white block characters, the bottom row was blank. Pressing any of the keys made no difference, all dead.
No current from PVs to Battery bank so Fluke showed.
I thought I could hear an almost imperceptible relay clicking sound but can't be sure.
I reset the KID, power cycled, and it started up. Within a second or so BULKMPPT with 545 watts and a couple seconds later 29V ABSORB with 350 watts.
This is the highest reported wattage I have seen for some time as 125 watts was the highest despite there being a 700watt array in bright sunshine
The KID was RESTING when I left it yesterday evening.
just FYI ;D
dgd
So you are saying that the lcd driver has a bug? .... no way :)
I will fix this in the next firmware update..... which BTW is coming real soon.
Today I go the bootloader 2.1 from Andrew and I am testing it to make sure it does the job and updates kids.... I love it, its actually pretty impressive!
If you guys liked bootloader rev 1(all betas have rev 1) just wait until you get rev 2.1.
now we have to wait some time till he finishes an application to update the bootloader rev 1.
I will keep you guys posted as when the updates become available again. as well as instructions on how to update.
Sorry for all the hassle we have created by not being able to update. I am taking notes on all the bug reports I've got and fixed some on the next firmware update
Mario
Thanks Mario..
The KID battery voltage is going weird as its reporting 29V which is ABSORB and the real battery voltage is 27.8 on Classics and fluke meter.
The KID is having problems establishing the correct battery voltage and is jumping between BULKMPPT and ABSORB.
I will wait for a software update.
CPU and FET temps are 43
a little later...
Did factory reset again and immediately KID went to ABSORB with 343W out and had battery V at 29
The actual battery V is 27.6 from two Classics and with Fluke meter.
Will have to disconnect this KID as its insisting on charging full battery bank.
would be useful to have a force float option in the firmware.
dgd
Mario,
This AM cycled the L-16s connected to the Kid, and tried to recharge these batts using Legacy P&O, but was only seeing about 2.5-ish A charge current using the Clamp DC Ammeter, with 23.9 V in on the DMM, and about 12 V battery voltage. Yesterday PM was seeing about 18 A +/--.
So then again tried to Calibrate Input V. It has not been possible in the past to do so, and the first attempt today, the input V readout would just stop rising at about 1.5 V of positive offset, as had been the case in days prior.
For whatever reason, on the second attempt today, was able to raise the offset to the correct +3.2 V -- YES, at this offset, the Vin to the Kid is identical to that measured on the output of the input breaker feeding the Kid, using a DMM that is within several hundredths of a known accurate DVM.
For whatever reason, after this input Calibration, was seeing 25-ish A charge current to the L-16s (380 AH when new), which I have confirmed are still real batteries after 9 years of use/abuse. BTW, had the highest ever displayed Power of 50-ish Watts on the Kid. The actual delivered power was about 380 W at this point -- about the limit of the SMPS simulating a PV array -- still have not tried the larger array and the 48 V main bank ...
FW 1704.1
This may all just be noise, and perhaps should just wait for a FW rev. or two (?).
FWIW. Thanks, Vic
Quote from: Vic on January 31, 2014, 03:12:29 PM
Mario,
This AM cycled the L-16s connected to the Kid, and tried to recharge these batts using Legacy P&O, but was only seeing about 2.5-ish A charge current using the Clamp DC Ammeter, with 23.9 V in on the DMM, and about 12 V battery voltage. Yesterday PM was seeing about 18 A +/--.
Vic, you have it connected to a power supply, I assume you have different negatives connected to the input and the Battery.
Quote from: Vic on January 31, 2014, 03:12:29 PM
So then again tried to Calibrate Input V. It has not been possible in the past to do so, and the first attempt today, the input V readout would just stop rising at about 1.5 V of positive offset, as had been the case in days prior.
For whatever reason, on the second attempt today, was able to raise the offset to the correct +3.2 V -- YES, at this offset, the Vin to the Kid is identical to that measured on the output of the input breaker feeding the Kid, using a DMM that is within several hundredths of a known accurate DVM.
For whatever reason, after this input Calibration, was seeing 25-ish A charge current to the L-16s (380 AH when new), which I have confirmed are still real batteries after 9 years of use/abuse. BTW, had the highest ever displayed Power of 50-ish Watts on the Kid. The actual delivered power was about 380 W at this point -- about the limit of the SMPS simulating a PV array -- still have not tried the larger array and the 48 V main bank ...
about the calibration I do not understand why would it only let you calibrate 1.5v positive. the limit is 5v +/- . you are calibrating the unit with the MODE off right? when the kid is not charging the battery or trying to charge the battery?
Question: so you are saying that you are getting 25 amps out to the battery and the display is saying about 4 amps?
And I recommend using Solar 2 O&P instead of Legacy mode P&O.
EDIT: See Update that follows this post<
Quote from: Mario on January 31, 2014, 04:58:28 PM
Vic, you have it connected to a power supply, I assume you have different negatives connected to the input and the Battery.
...about the calibration I do not understand why would it only let you calibrate 1.5v positive. the limit is 5v +/- . you are calibrating the unit with the MODE off right? when the kid is not charging the battery or trying to charge the battery?
Question: so you are saying that you are getting 25 amps out to the battery and the display is saying about 4 amps?
And I recommend using Solar 2 O&P instead of Legacy mode P&O.
Mario, Thanks. The SMPS has its own neg return, but is commoned with the battery neg in the I/O breaker box ... but from that common point, there are still separate negatives from the battery and from the PV (SMPS right now) to the Kid's respective negative terminals, but the two negs are connected within the breaker box.
EDIT: There is NO external Shunt at this time<
OH, and I did calibrate the Offset with the Kid running (as I had previously removed a 5 Ohm resistor that had been in the + lead of the PS).
EDIT: Re-checked the calibration it is a +3 V offset and is still correct with the CC Resting<
Just to be clear, have been looking at the Status display, and was referring to the displayed Watts on the right side of the LCD. This power display is low by a factor of perhaps six to twelve, depending on things unknown.
EDIT: The Current display on the Status display is also low by about the same factor. Hope you are not measuring I in the neg battery lead or something ...<
Will try Solar2O&P. Had tried Hydro yesterday, and it worked OK, Too.
Without the 5 Ohm R, in Solar mode, the SMPS' output was getting dragged down by the Kid into the 18 -19 V range, when there was that Ticking (or clicking) going on.
DO know, that in the past, boB had recommended against using a PS on the input of most MPPT CCs (except for Legacy P&O + perhaps Hydro). Had felt that the current limiting R on the PV input terminals of the Kid might help ... but it did not help, although, this R was probably too high in value.
Will try O&P. Thanks for the help. Will check the input calibration with the CC resting. Have Fun! Thanks Vic
Update,
OK, since there was a common connection between the Neg of the SMPS and the battery outside the CC, REMOVED THAT CONNECTION.
Using Solar 2 O&P, NOW the power and current display on the Status screen are nominally correct!!
Guess that a common neg connection outside the CC is a bad thing.
More later. Thanks, Vic
Quote from: Vic on January 31, 2014, 06:19:19 PM
Using Solar 2 O&P, NOW the power and current display on the Status screen are nominally correct!!
Guess that a common neg connection outside the CC is a bad thing.
More later. Thanks, Vic
Vic;
I confirmed with Ryan that The Kid, unlike the Classic
does not have a common negative internally for source in and battery out before I wired mine.
Your experience reinforces that it is not a good idea to connect them together anywhere.
Thanks for the feedback.
Tom
Tom!
Thanks, I had read about the isolation, but did not make the extension that not only are they separate, they MUST remain that way.
OH. The Kid sure works a lot better with that connection severed.
Must admit that I did not exactly look at the schematic system diagrams until this afternoon.
Thanks, 73 Vic
i would definitely love one too but unfortunately i am in no position to make use of one right now ,its a shame the introductory price is teasing.
A few pages ago someone asked about the hieroglyphics on the back cover of the KID.
Here is a link to the answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Vilas_Boas
I have had the Kid up and running for about a week now. I just love the kid compared to my old PWM controller. In my test I see the battery bank recover much faster than with the PWM.
So far charging, absorb, and float seem to be working ok except when the batteries are full charge and no sun like when very cloudy and rain. On the status screen we have 0 amps, 0 watts, 13.8 battery volts and FloatMPPT. I can hear a relay chatter in the Kid. I think when the sun is out and the battery is in Float the screen shows .8 amps, 13.8 volts, 6-10 watts, and only Float not FloatMPPT which seems normal to me. Question, is it normal for the relay to chatter with the FloatMPPT on the screen?
Thanks for any info on this
Kent
I would think with no voltage in I should see Resting.
Quote from: Robin on March 20, 2014, 12:09:06 PM
A few pages ago someone asked about the hieroglyphics on the back cover of the KID.
Here is a link to the answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Vilas_Boas
And here is the writing...
http://globalovethinktank.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-writing-on-wall.html
A couple post back i was explaining a situation where with no voltage or current into kid the display was showing Float MPPT on the screen. I was wondering if that was normal. I am new to MPPT controllers so I will probably be asking questions.
The next morning I removed the solar input and turned off the Kid next I removed the battery voltage from the Kid. Next I waited about 20 seconds and reapplied the battery voltage, turned on the kid and applied solar input. Then all readings on the display looked OK.
Looking at the display Today it was in Float which looked normal so I applied a Load to the battery bank (about 65 amps) and the MPPT along with Float showed up on the display. I would of expected to see BulkMPPT but the display was showing FloatMPPT.
Again is what I see on the display normal? I really appreciate any comments.
Thanks
Kent
thats about a 15% load, Was it a DC load or AC , how long did you have it going.
(sorry keyboard malfunctioning no question or other marks...)
Quote from: Westbranch on March 30, 2014, 04:56:11 PM
thats about a 15% load, Was it a DC load or AC , how long did you have it going.
(sorry keyboard malfunctioning no question or other marks...)
Westbranch thanks for the reply. I had a PSW inverter connected to the batteries and 750 watt light connected to the inverter. i tried to up load a picture of the display but for some reason it did not work. i had the load on for 8-10 minutes the batteries were down to 12.6 volts.
Quote from: Kent3 on March 30, 2014, 05:27:06 PM
I had a PSW inverter connected to the batteries and 750 watt light connected to the inverter. i tried to up load a picture of the display but for some reason it did not work. i had the load on for 8-10 minutes the batteries were down to 12.6 volts.
I don't have a Kid, but most controllers, once they reach float will not start a bulk charge again on the same day unless the voltage sinks to below the ReBulk Voltage setting.
--vtMaps
--vtMaps Wrote
I don't have a Kid, but most controllers, once they reach float will not start a bulk charge again on the same day unless the voltage sinks to below the ReBulk Voltage setting.
--vtMaps
Maybe the Kid is the same way. Most of my experience is with PWM CC which do not have very many electronics. I just looked at the Kid display and it went into Float OK after the load was removed. So maybe everything is OK.
Thanks --vtMaps
Kent
At 12.6V you still have essentially a battery that is still at 95% +- charged.
see chart about 3.4 of the way down...
http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html#Battery%20Voltages
Hi Kent3,
It is normal for many MPPT CCs to remain in Float Mppt when there is a load that exceeds the PV input power capability, UNTIL the battery voltage descends to a ReBulk Voltage setting.
Regarding one of your earlier posts, it is surprising to me that with ZERO PV input power that the KID would remain in Float MPPT, as that should mean that the "Converter" is running, but producing no power. There could be some reasonable delay in the KID deciding that the Converter should be shut off, and the CC going to Rest, or similar state.
And Kent, what is the nature of the Input to the KID? What is your battery capacity? Just curious.
[ And WB, that Table in the link is for RESTED batteries, FWIW ].
Vic
Vic
Currently I have 3- 150 watt panels in parallel (soon to be in series for 24 volt battery bank) also 1 more 150 watt to be installed when weather is warmer.
Currently using 4 - 12 volt batteries in parallel.
Kent
OK Kent,
Sounds great, glad that you will be moving up to a 24 V system. Have Fun, Vic
Hi Vic, that was my point, (should have added more info) that with a 15% load on his battery and reading 12.6V, it is in reality fully charged, at least Grtr than 95%.
When he took the load off it probably went up to +- 13V.
OK WB, well, was trying to understand something else that you mentioned -- the 15% reference ... could not understand, 15% of what (?) ... went back to look at all of Kent3's other posts, but still could not figger it out.
BUT, anyway, perhaps the batteries are COLD, or HOT, or not ... and if AGMs the noted voltage vs SOC COULD be a bit difference ... and so on ... difficult to guess.
Thanks, Vic
Hi Vic, I used his system description of 440 Ah and applying an approx load of 65A gives about a 15% instantaneous load, so for a load test that is fairly light but good enough to see what your battery condition is... his only dipped to 12.6V. = healthy battery to me. It was a test of that type that let me know my old AGMs were dying fast as I saw a crack of the whip or Coup de fouet rebound effect after the test of +-10% load. YA its a crap shoot trying to sift through this stuff a times
hth
OK WB,
That makes sense, just did not see ANY signature line at the time of the post above ... must be blind.
Sometimes, if someone adds a Sig while another user is logged onto a site, that Sig will not appear until that other user logs off and back on.
Otherwise, am just BLIND. Thanks, Vic
No worries mate...
Midnite/Mario,
I have a new old issue with my kid. I didnt mention it before because it was around a firmware update and I was willing to wait to see if it would solve it. I did initially but the issue is back in full force. FW for kid is1722. What takes place is the the controller goes into a screen lock where the screen is light and blank after a day of charging and it does not go back to regular operation until a power cycle even when the it get solar input the following day.
Cheers...
Damani
Damini, What is the setting for the LCD power mode?
main menu-> MISC-> LCD-> what is the setting there?
Mario
Mario,
The lcd was set to eco. I set it to normal to see what it would do. I had to do power cycle again to get the controller to respond as it was hung on the blue screen.
Cheers...
Damani
K,
I set the controller to normal and it still did the same thing. Hung at blue screen and controller non responsive. Power cycle brings back regular operation.
Cheers...
Damani
I have set the kid to charge some batteries at 48v and it has not locked up at the blue screen since. It has been about 3 days. I will monitor and report. I will setup 24v when I am finished charging my 48v bank of batteries. Strange thing are happening.
Damani
Damini,
Maybe I didn't read the post right the first time but are you saying that, the kid the screen goes blank and the back light on and it doesn't come on again.... do you mean just the LCD or the whole unit doesn't start charging the next morning?
Mario
Mario,
When the kid lock up the screen is blank(no characters) and light blue. It is also unresponsive(no buttons will cause any change from the hung state. The only course of action to bring back to normarl operation is a power cycle. When in the hung state it does not charge or do anything except to be a blue night light. When the sun comes up the following day it remains in that hung blue screen state(as I discover it generally in the morning, I have discovered that it gets hung from sundown since I would check on it regularly at the end of each day). Since I have switched to a 48v bank (the hung state was occurring with a 12v bank) it has not been in the hung blue screen state as yet (or for a few days anyways).
Cheers...
Damani
Mario,
My Kidd is doing the same thing that Damani's was doing. After a full day of normal charging screen was blank with backlight on with no characters visible. Power cycling restores normal screen but next morning screen was blank again. Blue back light and no characters visible, does not respond to button press or input and output voltage variations, only power cycling will reset it.
Just before this event I observed the output current would go up and down by several amps very rapidly at about 5 oscillations per second. This continued through the day until sunset. This has not been seen before as the output is normally very stable with much slower variations in current
I had been experimenting with P&O and O&P mode and the current wandering started. The current oscillations was the same in Solar , P&O , and O&P. Before the experiment with modes the Kidd was working normally at about 240 watts , 12.6 volts with a very stable current output. Multiple resetting of the modes was not able to stop the oscillations.
For a test I swapped the Kidd input and output to a Tracer controller and the rapid current swings were not seen so I was able to verify it is not in the system connections but is the Kidd.
After about 6 power cycles Kidd is now working normally without the oscillation. 7.3 amps, 13.3 volts, 97 watts, 330 watt array, 6 X Siemens SM-55 connected in three strings of two. V@ Pmax=34.4
Edit, just to clarify when the screen goes to blank, Kidd does not respond to any input, only removing battery connection will cause a response
Mario,
Further testing reveals that this was caused by switching to legacy P&O. The current wandering has returned and Kidd goes from resting to bulk mppt , no power out. Switching to Solar 2 O$P Kidd output current will oscillate for about 5 seconds then settle on a stable value. Same results on solar. Stable output, problem seems limited to legacy mode but problem does not go away when switched back to solar mode, power cycling is only way to restore normal operation.
Current oscillations are so rapid that it is not possible to get stable readings on digital meters but are very apparent on high resolution analog meters and using Hall effect sensors hooked to oscilloscope.
Test equipment: Fluke 23 (industrial version of 77). Current cert.
Fluke 87 V. Current cert
Simpson 260-5. Current cert.
Snap-on analog alternator/regulator tester repurposed as solar tester, calibrated
Tectronics 3455 scope (4channel 350 MHz, dual sweep) current cert.
Kidd is now back in solar mode and working normally, output is stable with normal MPPT sweeping seen. Output stable 155 watts from 330 watt array 8:30 am , panels orientated at 2:00pm sun
This is great detective work. I am confident that Mario will be able to fix this condition with your help.
Thanks,
Robin
Robin and Mario,
Problem has resurfaced in solar mode, variation is +/- 15 % of output current
Air temp at controller location 95 F., CPU 41c, FET , 39c
Mode solar 1, absorb. Volts steady at 14.7 amps 2.8 varying +/- 15%
The Kidd has never done this output current wobble before. I use the Kidd to supplement my Classic on the 24 volt bank as well and the Kidd never did this on 24v
Testing will continue through this heat wave and I will post test results
David
David, can't remember if you said you updated your Beta or not ? if not would that be a source of the issue?
(97 posts... I forget)
WB
I am running original beta as I do not have a windows 7 computer to upgrade also do not have drag n drop uploader. How do I find the rev. Number? My unit is so early that I do not have a serial number yet. I was first to ask when Robin first started this thread. No regrets......did prove how limited the Tracers are.
The problem was the worst yesterday, very hot!!! High 90's and large load on the Kidd , today the situation is better but over 100 today but Kidd is lightly loaded. Current oscillated until about 3:00 PDT then stopped on its own. Current very steady now.
4:25 p.m. PDT. air temp at controller 99.5F....38c. CPU 42c. FET's 40c. 4 degrees c temp rise
Solar 1 mode, float, 13.0v 1.4 a
Switching to legacy mode does not reintroduce oscillations, but output falls to zero and Kidd is resting
Switching to O&P mode does not reintroduce oscillations, output ..float 1.4 a
Switching to solar 1 mode does not reintroduce oscillations
My conclusion: high external temperature and heavy load were present both times current oscillations were present
Unit left in solar one mode. Will be a scorcher tomorrow so I will load up the Kidd to max power to charge the classic's bank of L-16's....currently 4 days no charge....at about 60% SOC
td
Edit: additional instrumentation used at all stages. Fluke 52 dual channel J/K thermocouple meter
Current cert. accuracy >2%
SN was written on the box, and also inside KID, you will need a new BOOTLOADER from Ryan to do the upgrade of the FW. PM him.
You may have read my tale in another posting about trying to upgrade FW in my classics. I want to do them first then proceed to the Beta KID...
tecnodave, a couple of things.....
the current is moving because you mention is in Absorb..... at this stage the output Voltage to the battery will be regulated steady and the output current will be doing whatever it needs to do to keep the voltage at the set point, so you will see oscillation on the current, that's normal.... there are variables that will contribute to how much the oscillation is, for example battery temperature, battery load, amount of power available on the input of the kid.
Then if you are running stock firmware on a Beta.......... ummm you need to upgrade it, please borrow a W7 machine if possible, see, the problem is that I cannot tell if the problems you are experiencing have been fixed with a Firmware update.
I am about to release a new firmware with some bug fixes and added features. I really would like to know if you still have problems with the latest release.
Oh and the only modes to use(which are fully functional) are: Solar, Solar 2 O&P and U-SET Voc %. Legacy is not fully functional.
The reason why your kid LCD is going blank overnight could be because your battery is going too low.... you have 12v battery bank, can you check to see if I am correct on this and see how low does your battery get when the kid fails overnight?
Mario
WB
There is no serial number on my unit at all, not inside or on the box, not in the menu,s.
Oh well I was first on the list so this may have been overlooked. I did see the posts about the tag taped in the box but no avail. There is no numbers at all on my unit or it's packaging.
td
Mario,
Yesterday was the worst of the current oscillations, mode was Solar and was in bulk MPPT mode when I changed mode to Legacy P&O , then the current wobble started and did that for about 6 hours yesterday. The battery was fully charged by 6:00 pm but the controller was still working as I could hear the relay clicking as it went to resting mode. About 9:00 pm PDT yesterday the screen was blank, no characters but bright blue backlight.pressing buttons had no effect. Power cycling brought Kidd back to life but this morning screen was blank again, backlight only, voltage was checked at 12.4 volts
This is a backup system as my Classic and L-16's are my main system (24 volt) and night load is very minimal. The Kidd did the current wobble for several hours then stopped on its own.
I have seen the current wobble when there is no significant load on the system and during Bulk, and absorb modes. All of my 120 volt loads are on the 24 volt system as well as most of my 12 volt loads are served by a Samlex DC-DC converter run off the 24 volt system.
The only common threads are experimenting with modes and high temperatures.
It is still in the 90's at 6:45 pm PDT air temp at controller 32c. CPU 37c. FET. 34c mode solar 1 float MPPT 12.7 v. 1.4 a
Please advise, This must be a windows 7 machine to do upgrade? My friend has a Windows 8 machine which is hacked to look like windows 7. I used this machine to upgrade my Classic.
Worked fine, have not upgraded because I do not want to brick the unit.
Thanks for the help
td
Mario will chime in here soon. We have him burning the midnight oil to get a new revision of the circuit board done. He is adding auto gen start for a big customer. Mario is also adding some circuitry so he can add a daughter card that give additional features. One feature is dead battery boot. The KID and most other controllers will not be able to wake up and charge based on PV alone. They all require a battery to be connected and about 8 volts of charge. His new additional board is some sort of power supply that will allow the PV to boot up the KID and then try to charge a stone dead battery. The other feature is a power supply to power a small fan. We might make a new back cover that has a 40mm fan on the inside of the KID attached to the new back cover. The KID will run extremely cool in very hot climates with this fan. Don't know that we will ever complete this new back cover, but more than likely we will. There are all sorts of screwy applications where the addition of a fan may be a good thing to do.
If any of you need these features, we can work out some sort of deal to get them to you cheap.
Thanks,
Robin
Sounds good Robin :D
With a small fan, would we potentially be able to go past the 30 amp mark?
Robin,
I am pretty sure that it was the record heat coupled with excessive loading complicated the experimenting with modes. It never happened before but I did not know that legacy P&O was not fully implemented yet. I will stay from that mode for now. Kidd is back to stable again. As a further test I jumper end it to a different battery to load the Kidd but it is behaving very well now. 8:30 pm 76 degrees F room temp. In c. Air temp 24 c , CPU 29 c , FET's. 27 c Kidd resting
td
Edit. I forgot to install the back cover on my Kidd when I installed it so I may be messing with the thermals on the Kidd but I would think that would be able to get rid of heat better.
tecno,
I also had no back on my KID . I took it off so that when I 3D printed a new mounting plate which included 40mm chunky CPU fan, there would be good air flow into the circuit board.
I found this necessary as the temps were getting way too high when ambient was over 30c.
I separately powered the fan but it would have been nice to have an AUX control to do this.
BTW the KID serial number was written on a label on the inside of the back cover.
I hope Mario will not use up the existing AUX to do this in his improved design, it would be nice if more than one AUX was available and at least one of them implemented PWM output.
Just realised that the existing AUX is used up with the WBjr so it will be intersting to see how the fan is controlled.
Also the 40A outmax would be nice in a fanned KID :D
dgd
Robin and Mario,
My kid is still locking up with only the blue backlight on, not responsive to key press or any input except power cycling. Yesterday was the last day of our mini heat wave and it was locked at about 7:00 PDT. Power cycling brought kid back to life. This morning same locked blue nitelite. Power cycle restores normal operation.
td
Tecnodave,
I am sorry about the kid not behaving right, I am working on fixing this since you are not the only person with this problem.
Can you provide me with as much information as possible about the system?
What is your Battery Voltage?
What is your Input voltage?
Do you have the load enabled?
Does it only happens at night time?
Do you have the PV and Battery Negative Isolated?
Have you seen it as it happens? what is the kid doing right before the screen goes blank?
Anyone else with the same problem is welcomed to feed me as much info as possible, so we can fix this problem.
Thanks,
Mario
Mario,
The kid is is on a separate system which has very light duty, all my heavy loads are on main system.
Main system: Classic 150 with 1600 watts PV input, L-16 batteries, 24 volt, 380 a.h. ,Exectech Inverter XP1100 , Cotek Inverter SK-1500 , Samlex DC-DC converter 24v-12v
System not grounded on DC side
Loads : Exeltech : small kitchen appliances, Cotek : power tools only, Samlex : Electronics
Lighting all led with own PWM controllers
Kid System. Beta kid, 330 watts PV 6 ea. Siemens SM-55 mono wired in 3 strings of 2 ea. v@pmax 34.4 batteries group 27 deep cycle, 110 a.h.
System grounded
Loads: 12 to 30 watt steady state, burglar , smoke , carbon monoxide , Unburned hydrocarbon alarms, emergency standby led lighting, auto stereo. No heavy loads!
Separate negative wires on PV side from batt. Side. (No connection)
Total isolation between 24 volt system and 12 volt kid system
Mode is normally solar but I was experimenting with Legacy O&P
<battery>. absorb 14.6 v. 120 min., flt. 13.5 v. , eq. 15.3 v. 120min.
<Load> : battery , Function:manual , off
<Input> : solar , on
<Aux> : function : WBJR , off
<Misc> LCD , adjust up/down , Bakelite , contrast. Cannot be changed
temp. CPU 33c. FET 31c. Batt. N.C.
Led , #BCM , Rick , OFF. cannot be changed
<comm> parallel mode , bully, follow me. Pressing bully , enter gives no response but pressing follow me , enter jumps you to battery set points absorb 14.6 > and further into the battery menu ??
<tech> factory calibration reset. , have not changed values
Current status : float , 13.6 volts batt , amps out varying very rapidly from 1.2 amps to 2.5 amps changing very rapidly watts 21-26 changing very rapidly. Input 37.0 to 37.2 changing very rapidly
I started this problem by changing modes on a very hot day with very good steady sun exposure. I repeatedly changed between solar , legacy P&O , and solar 2 O&P and logged results to find the best mode. After three or so runs through the modes the current oscillations began, this behavior had not been seen before, the output current was always steady changing only the least significant digit unless there was variation in solar isonation. This oscillation was so rapid that the digits on kid were a blur.
I observed this on two different scopes , a B&K 60 MHz dual trace, then on a Tectronics 2465A 4 channel dual time base 350 MHz analog scope using both voltage and current inputs through a Hall effect current sensor. The oscillation is very cyclic. That evening I checked the cc,s and found the kid with a blue screen and no characters at all, not blurred characters as I saw in another post, no response to any key press or removing PV input. Only turning off battery breaker reset the kid. It's late so no solar input, kid is left on and is in resting mode. Display is always left on. Next morning blank blue screen again and no response from key press. Turned power off then back on kid reset and went to bulk MPPT at about 220 watts . Record hot day Suffered heat stroke so ignored kid rest of day. At 7:00 pm back to blue screen reset again, kid resting. Next A.M. blue screen. Reset again
Current status : in use , float , 13.6 v. Amps jumping rapidly from 1.1 to 2.5 load on system 1.8 amps.
I am removing the kid from system today for a thorough inspection. I do have several other controllers that will get me through this.
td
Midnite,
I am reporting that the blue screen of death is back. I am now charging 18v and it lock up on the blue screen at night.
Damani
Ohhh... New guy here. I just saw this thread. Any more beta units still available?
Quote from: ZoNiE on July 16, 2014, 06:15:15 PM
Ohhh... New guy here. I just saw this thread. Any more beta units still available?
I may be wrong. But, considering Kids are now available on the open market, I imagine they have all long since been gone. They were a heck of a deal, though.
yeah, figured that out.