I am just about ready to order a clipper now that I have a new 2kw turbine connected to c150.
After reading, many times, as you do, the PDF docs, a wish list occurred.
Wouldn't it be nice if that clipper control pcb had included a CPU with some basic clipper event monitoring and reports all stored in flash, perhaps in a FIFO covering several hundred days just like the Classic. I can already see how useful info such as ac voltage on each leg input, current in, current out, dc volts after rectifier and out to Classic (or whatever), temp log for unit internal temps on those SCRs or any FETs, temp of those dump load resistors, wattage being dumped at any time and wattage making its way to Classic. Events log like when over voltage detected, when dead classic detected, etc..
And of course an Ethernet interface to the clipper plus a USB serial interface with a command line interface, one command comes to mind immediately is to set the voltage input level max depending on the clipper model connected. Commands to turn off turbine, clear logs, dump logs etc.
Clipper Mk2 perhaps?
Dgd
..and the more I think about this the list just gets longer :)
A modular clipper that separates the hot bits from the smart bits in separate boxes,
An input for a wind speed device that will auto shut down the turbine when that big blow arrives while I am in the Bahamas on holiday :)
Dgd
Is there any possibilities that a "Clipper Lite" is coming, I have a small PMA turbine (DELCO Alternator re-wound with A/C rectifier), seems insane to pay big $ for clipper and buy another classic just to get MPPT on small turbine and harvest a little more "juice" to batteries. any cheap solutions?
Quote from: reddog on December 05, 2012, 05:33:16 PM
.. seems insane to pay big $ for clipper and buy another classic just to get MPPT on small turbine and harvest a little more "juice" to batteries. any cheap solutions?
Agree, its insane, I had similar setup with a missouri alternator that put out about 350w. Since amps are fairly low I thought best to just have it connected to battery bank via a windy nation digital monitor (amps, watts, watthrs, batt volts etc..), breaker and 50A stud diode. Later after seeing full battery, C150 with 2.5kw pvs at float but turbine still pushing 12A, I used the c150's AUX2 on waste not hi to enable a cheapo 20A 3 phase ssr to short the turbine ac outputs via three 1.8ohm 200w resistors. Worked great. Resistors, SSR, diode, meter and breaker all under $120 from ebay.
dgd
boB and other engineers worked on more complicated versions of the Clipper for many, many years. We spent a ton of money trying to develop exactly what you described. We even have a set of circuit boards all stuffed and waiting for somebody to write a few thousand lines of code to make it work. boB came up with this Clipper design that did not require a ton of code, so we opted to do this version. The present version is very robust as compared to the earlier versions too, but it does lack any communications.
Enter the Army Wind controller that has been in development for a few years. It will be on the market in another year. The US Army is funding the development of it. The tooling for the turbine as well as the controller is being dished out over the next 9 months. They send money, we buy more tooling. There are a couple dozen parts between the controller and the turbine. We are only acquiring the tooling as money comes our way. It is very expensive to buy all the custom tooling for castings and plastic and blades etc.
The Army wind controller has a new style Clipper. It is pretty cool. The circuit does not require big dump load resistors as it dumps power directly into triacs. The controller is about 500 watts. I do not know what the Clipper might be good for as a stand alone product, but it sure seems like that circuit might be what is needed for a cheap Clipper?
I'm sure we will look at this possibility as the Army Wind controller takes shape. We have the next generation of circuit boards on order now and boB has started on the code to make the Clipper work. boB recently redesigned the Clipper to reduce about 75% of the parts and to make it work better than the original. The US Army has the one and only prototype of this controller. We will be building more with the real tooling during the next 9 months. If you want to learn more about this Clipper, I am sure boB will chime in.
Here is another picture or two. I'm not sure how to attach more than one picture, but I will give it a whirl.
Here is a picture of the prototype turbine. This turbine is designed for very low wind speeds. It is meant to be deployed on a HumVee, so it won't be very high in the air (15 to 20 feet). It puts out 100 watts in a 12MPH wind and 500 watts overall. The blades fold up for easy and quick storage, not that this would be an issue in a commercial installation. In addition to an MPPT controller with built in Clipper, we are also working on a 500 watt grid tie inverter with the same built in Clipper. This is one third of the "guys toy" project.
hi robin,
that's a neat little wind turbine there. what's the blade span if you know? is there going to be a commercial availability for not only the small clipper for that turbine, but also the turbine itself? probably going to be too costly as most things to the military are jacked way up in price so many of us may not wish to fork out for that much, at least not at first as later it could drop in price.
The turbine and controller are part of an SBIR program. There were hundreds of applicants for this RFQ. Two companies were selected to design real parts to meet the spec. One company proposed a VAWT. That is what the Army really wanted, but they dropped out very early due to the lack of a workable design. The spec is not Mil-spec. It has requirements that forced us to start from scratch for sure, but the goal of an SBIR contract is to produce a commercial grade product that can become a commercial product. That way the Army reaps the benefit of a lower cost product due to larger quantities being produced.
I do not know what the turbine will cost, but it is not going to be military prices. This is a regular turbine that happens to meet the special needs of the military. Same for the controller/Clipper.
The diameter of the blades is around 6 feet. The Clipper is built into the Controller, so at this time there is no separate Clipper.
BTW, that turbine is actually real. We built one and it worked.
The Controller is also real. One other application for that controller is for small hydro as well.
Hydro also needs a clipper, usually.
boB
Robin,
Thanks for this interesting info. Its good to read about these new developments.
I hope boB will get time to ressurect the 'smart' clipper' concept. The present Clipper design looks robust, its a 'black box' design with the only user input a one-off twiddle of a max voltage setting. Thereafter it just does its job.
One of the most appealing features of the Classic controller is the world interface options and the ability to retreive detailed performance data which can provide excellent system information. This allows users to evaluate their system's fitness for purpose and see where changes and redesign are needed. And having this information via a LAN or WAN is just nice.
Its this same level of data generation I would like to see in a smart Clipper. I can already see how useful and essential such data would become.
dgd
I do want to point out the Classic has a fair amount of brains and uses a few of them on the Clipper. It will for example slow the turbine to a stop as the batteries get full.
Ryan
We would all like to see a smarter Clipper. The only thing missing is the feedback that you get from having communications. We have 12 engineers here and must put them to the best use. At the moment we are concentrating on products that do not presently exist. Although we would like to work on the Clipper, it does not bring in a significant amount of revenue. We break even on the Clipper at best. Now that should change a bit when we come out with the turbine, Army controller and grid tie wind inverter with built in Clipper. Those products are in development now. Once we get these on the market, it may become easier to justify a smarter Clipper based on what we developed for the Army wind controller and inverter.
It is strictly a matter of resources and we do not have unlimited resources.
If anyone out there is an electrical engineer with a knack for this stuff and some spare time on their hands, we would be glad to work with them to help bring the Smart Clipper to market.
Quote from: Robin on December 09, 2012, 02:49:53 PM
The only thing missing is the feedback that you get from having communications. ...
It is strictly a matter of resources and we do not have unlimited resources.
Robin,
I can see the clipper is a fairly niche product and MN must look at the commercial reality of allocating resources for best returns.
So in meantime the smart Clipper will have to remain on the wish list :)
BIG thanks to you all at MN for such excellent products (software too) and the support provided
When my ordered Clipper arrives I cannot resist the temptation to somehow get a processor included for logging and monitoring 8)
dgd
Where did you order the Clipper from? It will not take until March to get it unless somebody out there drops the ball. We see this all the time. When a distributor does not have a part number loaded into their system, they tell lies about lead times. They make it sound like it is the manufacturer that is responsible for long lead times.
I have a feeling Bob could do some sort of data logging about how much the Clipper is actually Clipping? It won't know the wattage, but it could tell you the frequency at when it does it's job. The Clipper takes its direction from the Classic. That is how our battery status monitor will work too.
Quote from: boB on December 09, 2012, 03:37:01 AM
One other application for that controller is for small hydro as well.
Hydro also needs a clipper, usually.
boB
boB,
As much as I love buying Midnite products (just bought my 3rd Classic!), I'm wondering if the recent development of "mppt enabled" micro hydro turbines like the PowerSpout ME series will mean less need for clipper type products for microhydro.
3rd Classis! Wow, I only hooked up my first Classic at home two weeks ago. Now I need to get it on the internet. I am liable to become Ryan's worst nightmare when it comes to support. I am a mechanical engineer, not an electrical geek, so I don't actually get to play with this stuff much. Thus I will be asking questions.
If you can keep on buying classics, we will keep making them.
Sounds like your system is a good case for the follow me software.
Thanks for your support. We really do appreciate customers like you.
Thanks Robin. Yes the 3rd Classic will be for my upcoming micro-hydro project.
Next year I may be getting a 4th Classic if i get around to putting together a second system for my detached garage. Love my ePanel, combiners, SPDs and quad box as well! I guess you could categorize me as a satisfied customer! ;D
The latest firmware update with the follow me software is downloaded - I just have to find the time to do the install.
Having such great support by you all here on the forums is just another awesome aspect of being a Midnite customer!
Quote from: Robin on December 09, 2012, 04:01:40 PM
Where did you order the Clipper from? ...
I have a feeling Bob could do some sort of data logging about how much the Clipper is actually Clipping? It won't know the wattage, but it could tell you the frequency at when it does it's job. The Clipper takes its direction from the Classic. That is how our battery status monitor will work too.
I'm in New Zealand so delays importing from USA are normal. The MN distributor here does not carry much MN stock. The two 150s I bought here were manufactured 15 months before I took delivery.
I have to agree with my local dealer to pay any additional shipping costs to get the Clipper here sooner
Even so I wish it were possible to buy direct as there seem just too many people clipping the ticket, but then again it's the commercial reality of distributor and dealer networks.
A midnite estore perhaps? PayPal? eBay store maybe? International shipping USPS, FedEx etc..
Seems one of the BIG reasons for dealers/distributors is local support BUT the direct MN support via these forums is way way better than anything a local dealer can do.
Dgd
Quote from: boB on December 09, 2012, 03:37:01 AM
BTW, that turbine is actually real. We built one and it worked.
The Controller is also real. One other application for that controller is for small hydro as well.
Hydro also needs a clipper, usually.
boB
boB,
That turbine looks slick and engineered to NASA standards, at least compared to my roughly lumpy welded 10 footer :)
Just wondering since the application is on a hummer, do those blades, carbon fibre?, have radar absorbing coating or other low radar signature design qualities?. I can imagine a hummer gets into a nice open wind, raises the turbine and that distant search radar locks and sends something heavier and faster than yer 10mph wind :)
Dgd
The blade material is still in debate. We are trying some light weight injection molded material at first. The fall back position will be glass reinforced Nylon, but that is pretty heavy. The Army has not asked for any exotic materials for the blades. I suppose this is not destined to be in the line of fire, so nothing special required. It can be deployed on the front lines though where fuel costs about $1000 per gallon to get it delivered. The turbine will take the small loads off the HumVee engine that at present can be running 24 hours a day.
There are all sorts of applications for this turbine. It can be folded up and backpacked. The tower is carbon fiber and it telescopes. Pretty cool stuff. The best part is that the turbine is a pretty good value as a consumer product also. The only difference will be the pins that lock the blades in place. The military needs quick release parts where the consumer version can use cotter pins.
I spent ten years designing military aircraft power supplies. This turbine would meet all of the mil specs required, but without the cost. A lot of the cost for military hardware isn't the hardware itself. It is in the qual testing and production testing and documentation. None of that excessive stuff is required on this project, but the military will be getting a rugged and reliable piece of gear.
I remember doing a power supply for the B2 bomber. This power supply (secret project at the time) sits on the back of the rotary cruise missle launcher. It's job was to launch the nuclear cruise missle, then to spin the launcher and launch the next one and so on. The pin wire testing for radiation hardening cost $17,000 per power supply. That was only one test! I don't know how many bombers they bought, but each B2 carried 218 nuclear warheads in their 18 missles. I always thought that one B2 bomber should pretty much suffice.
Anyway, this SBIR contract is a good deal for small businesses. The military actually wants a commercial product to come out of it. We will certainly comply with that wish.
Wow! This turbine is real boys toy, I'll take one or two when they are ready. Much more exciting than a fold up solar panel when tramping through Middle Earth.
Dgd
Quote from: mtdoc on December 09, 2012, 04:09:23 PM
boB,
As much as I love buying Midnite products (just bought my 3rd Classic!), I'm wondering if the recent development of "mppt enabled" micro hydro turbines like the PowerSpout ME series will mean less need for clipper type products for microhydro.
MT, I get the Power Spout E-letters. When you say "mppt enabled" hydro from them, do you mean they have a controller too or
are you saying that they use MPPT controllers with their turbines ? I have seen them talk about the Classic as well as the Outback
MF80/MF60 for their hydros.
boB
boB,
Powerspout has a series of what they call Mppt enabeled (ME) versions of their turbines which are specifically designed to work with mppt controllers with no need for a separate diversion controller or clipper. They specifically mention using them with Outback FM or Midnite controllers. My electronics knowledge is limited but I believe they have built in electronics which clamp the voltage at a maximum and have an internal resistive heater type dump load.
More detail HERE (http://www.powerspout.com/assets/Published/public/PLT/PLT-Manuals/PS-PLT-tech-manual-31Jan2012.pdf) in their tech manual and HERE (http://www.powerspout.com/assets/Published/public/PLT/PLT-Manuals/PS-PLT-install-manual-Feb-2012.pdf) in their installation manual. Their ME turbines come in different max voltage versions - e.g. ME 120, ME 140 , etc. The also have a more traditional turbines they call battery enabled (BE). They specifically mention the possibility of using a Classic 250 with a BE turbine and no diversion load.
I've got a ME 140 ordered and plan to try it out with a Classic 150 this spring if I can get my intake and penstock set up - so we'll see.