The only pic online I could find of the Radian is the standard outside image. :(
In this thread we are going undercover! As in lots of internal pics along with a few personal comments, most good but a few not so good concerning "access" to certain areas for "in the field repairs" if that is ever needed. Removing the FET board is a MAJOR pain compared to one in an FX series. More on that as we go along. First pics top cover removed.
Next up the power supply board.
This one just for fun... :)
Although I have not had to replace the fet board in a Radian yet, I can tell you it is the identical fet board used in the FX and VFX inverters. It was a fellow on the MidNite payroll that did the original sheet metal design of the Radian.
We had an agreement to furnish the breaker box for the Radian. To insure that our box was going to match up with it, we did the design of the inverter too. The paln was to re-use a lot of the XW E-panel parts. The original Radian was even going to be painted the same color as the XW.
So much for agreements with so called friends.
We are working on our own E-Panel for the Radian once again. Our will be able to support one or two inverters. Any more than that and OB can have it.
To remove the covers on either module access to 3 of the 17 screws is "blocked" by the chassis. To get those last 3 out you must remove the battery terminal nuts and loosen the two 10MM nuts at the fan end of the module so it can be slid "up". The module weighs north of 60Lbs so doing this alone and then holding it up in place while turning the 10MM nuts to keep it in place should be fun unless you have an extra pair of hands!
Hi Robin,
Thanks for the info! To satisfy my own curiosity about the "insides" of the Radian and boB's interest in seeing some "nudes" of it I got ambitious last night and decided to find out what it takes to get that FET board out in the unlikely and rare event that it would need to be replaced. Those very few people that are used to your mechanical design on the FX and ease of getting that board in and out will not be happy campers if it's required on a Radian.
The chassis design just needs some relief at the bottom to allow those 3 screws to be removed so a quick inspection is possible of the module or modules. To get the FET board out the module has to be removed no matter what so it's not a big deal. Just thought since I was snapping pics I would mention the minor issue. I will say for certain that the structural design of the Radian is VERY robust!
Yup! As Robin stated the Radian does use the same FET board as the FX series. :)
AC in/out side.
A closer look at the FET board. Plan on removing dozens of screws and the better part of an hour to extract it. On the FX series you can remove and replace the same board in the time it takes just to get one out of a Radian. Actually on an FX it might be closer to 15 or 20 minutes tops.
I think this is the "water-cooled pony harness section with fuel injection". If you don't get that you missed out on Mr. Zappa and his Mothers of Invention. ;)
Quote from: Robin on March 11, 2012, 03:55:44 PM
We had an agreement to furnish the breaker box for the Radian. To insure that our box was going to match up with it, we did the design of the inverter too.
Robin, how much of the inverter design was by Midnite? Clearly the "modules" are FX internals but what about the AC in/out sections?
Quote from: onanparts on March 11, 2012, 05:10:29 PM
I think this is the "water-cooled pony harness section with fuel injection". If you don't get that you missed out on Mr. Zappa and his Mothers of Invention. ;)
Thanks TJ for this look into the deep dark depths of "The Beast" !!
So, I think that this section, the pony, is the only processor in the Radian, is that correct ??
boB
Quote from: boB on March 11, 2012, 07:46:24 PM
Quote from: onanparts on March 11, 2012, 05:10:29 PM
I think this is the "water-cooled pony harness section with fuel injection". If you don't get that you missed out on Mr. Zappa and his Mothers of Invention. ;)
Thanks TJ for this look into the deep dark depths of "The Beast" !!
So, I think that this section, the pony, is the only processor in the Radian, is that correct ??
boB
Correct. I'll post some better pics of the "pony" tomorrow. :)
[attachment deleted by admin]
The camera I was using yesterday was not very good at macro shots. This pic of the Radian/FX FET board came out OK. Better "Pony" pics coming with a Kodak Brownie soon. :)
The Beast ADC board.
Control board top end.
Control board middle.
Control board middle flying low....
Still flying in low....
I think this is the TPS. Throttle Position Sensor.
DC EMC board
I think this is the MAP. Manifold Absolute Pressure unit.
Quote from: onanparts on March 12, 2012, 08:32:08 PM
DC EMC board
That toroid was probably placed in there by the infamous "Doctor Bob" !! I hear that if
you called him "Bob", he got all mad and said something like "That's DOCTOR Bob to YOU !"
and he wasn't kidding !
boB
(NOT a doctor !)
Looks like JABOR, Just a Bunch of Relays. boB likes JABORS!
Quote from: onanparts on March 12, 2012, 08:27:20 PM
Control board middle flying low....
Processor... Looks like they finally got a bit bigger one.
boB
Quote from: onanparts on March 12, 2012, 08:40:41 PM
I could be wrong though on that MAP thing... :) Looks like JABOR, Just a Bunch of Relays. boB likes JABORS!
But what's inside the box ??
boB
Quote from: boB on March 12, 2012, 08:42:33 PM
Quote from: onanparts on March 12, 2012, 08:40:41 PM
I could be wrong though on that MAP thing... :) Looks like JABOR, Just a Bunch of Relays. boB likes JABORS!
But what's inside the box ??
boB
Koala nutz? Lots of copper for sure.
Quote from: boB on March 12, 2012, 08:41:39 PM
Quote from: onanparts on March 12, 2012, 08:27:20 PM
Control board middle flying low....
Processor... Looks like they finally got a bit bigger one.
boB
8-bit Microcontroller with 16/32/64K Bytes In-System Programmable Flash
For the record no cartoon characters were harmed during the creation of this thread. All magic smoke is still safely contained within the Radian. :)
Mr. Parts,
That is a damn good job at pulling apart "the Beast". I hope you didn't have any spear screws left over ;D. I noticed on one of the control boards where there were two set of jumper selectable specs on for voltage and one for frequency. I would not expect that the voltage one (48v or 24V) would be applicable in the case of a 48v inverter but is it selectable in the case of operating frequency?. I would love if that were the case to be able to switch between 50/60Hz like my Apollo inverter. It would mean I would be able to use it down here(Barbados) as a true Hybrid inverter. I don't recall seeing that as an option when I was checking out the Radian last year. Is anyone here able to confirm that the operating frequency is selectable.
Cheers...
Damani
Quote from: dapdan on March 14, 2012, 08:45:06 AM
Mr. Parts,
That is a damn good job at pulling apart "the Beast". I hope you didn't have any spear screws left over ;D. I noticed on one of the control boards where there were two set of jumper selectable specs on for voltage and one for frequency. I would not expect that the voltage one (48v or 24V) would be applicable in the case of a 48v inverter but is it selectable in the case of operating frequency?. I would love if that were the case to be able to switch between 50/60Hz like my Apollo inverter. It would mean I would be able to use it down here(Barbados) as a true Hybrid inverter. I don't recall seeing that as an option when I was checking out the Radian last year. Is anyone here able to confirm that the operating frequency is selectable.
Cheers...
Damani
No extra screws left but there are a gazillion of them! As of last Sept a post by an OB tech support guy on their forums stated no 50Hz at that time.
Hi onanparts,
Thanks for the pics, interesting.
Have asked on the OB Forum, weather the Radian battery charger was Power-Factor-Corrected. Eventually got the reply that "it depends" (or something close to this). But, it seemed that there were no specific measures that were taken to PFC the built-in charger.
Do you or anyone else with knowledge of the Radian's charger KNOW absolutely weather or not it IS/IS NOT PFCed ?
Am running the venerable Xantrex SW+ 5548s here, and at some point one or more of them will fail, so am just thinking about what one would do at that point. And, for me, PFC charging would be essential.
I like OB very much, and would not want to rag on them, BUT, this data is important in making a good decision. TIA Vic
Hi Damani, you might want to checkout the efficiency of the Radian before you bite... it appears to be genset specific IIRC
Quote from: Vic on March 14, 2012, 02:13:08 PM
Have asked on the OB Forum, weather the Radian battery charger was Power-Factor-Corrected. Eventually got the reply that "it depends" (or something close to this). But, it seemed that there were no specific measures that were taken to PFC the built-in charger.
Do you or anyone else with knowledge of the Radian's charger KNOW absolutely weather or not it IS/IS NOT PFCed ?
I doubt very much if the radian is "real" PFC since it is basically an FX ( on steroids.)
The "depends" answer means that the PFC ~can~ be very close to 1.0 depending on
the grid voltage waveform at the moment. Generators, for instance, can make its (FX) PFC
drop quite a bit and load the generator down too much when charging.
When PFC is low, the current, instead of being sinewave, is more of a flat topped wave form,
which may be better for charging the batteries, but harder on the AC source.
boB
OK, Thanks boB for the added info and context.
IIRC, the Xantrex SW + inverters claim a PF of 0.95 for the charger. But, my little Honda EU 6500isa Inverter generator becomes upset with the way the SW+'s charger requlates the charge voltage. This regulation scheme yanks the Honda's line voltage out of regulation, and is dropped by the inverter. So it is difficult to use this thriftier genset to polish the charge on the bank.
This SW charger behavior is NOT a PF problem, as I'd assume that poor PF presented to the genset would be worse during Bulk. The SW chargers cause NO problems when charging using a 25 Kva diesel.
Anyway, thanks boB, and hope we will not need any new inverters for some time! 73, Vic
Primary use for now will be UPS mode since I'm on the grid. A modest PV setup is in the works mainly to cover the loads that run my business. I'm at a huge 200-300 watts at the moment for the basics. PC, printer and LED lighting. Enough AHr's to also run the oil heat, refrigadeezer and a few other small loads for 8 hours or so before having to kick the genny on would be perfect.
The Radian is overkill at this time but the deal was there so I jumped at it. :)
Robin, how much of the GSLC-PV pictured here was from your drawing board? Some? Most? All of it?
Unless something changed after I left OutBack for the second time, there is nothing specific about PF correction in the Radian. The SW was designed by the same electrical engineer as the Radian and the FX.
The FX was a lot better than the Sw for PF. The Radian is just two FX inverters in one box. The fet board is actually the identical fet board. This was because there are FX fet boards all over the world in repaiir centers. The main thing that breaks in an inverter is the fets. By making the Radian use the identical fet board, OutBack just made the Radian tons easier to service anywhere in the world. That is a big deal to all that have to deal with broken inverters. All inverters can fail. OutBack is as good if not better than the others, so using the same fet board, even though it may be hard to get to, is a good thing. Think in terms of the guy in South Africa that may have a broken Radian. He already has a lot of spare parts in country.
Old thread, I guess. Got the warning that it's more than 120 days old. Oh well.....
We looked at and considered a Radian system before we bought our XW6048. We ended up choosing the XW because of several reasons, and I was not satisfied with the answers to my questions on the Radian, nor its track record - they have had some teething problems.
But what confuses me is that if it is really two FX inverters, why did the dealer tell us that the modules are independent 4 kVA 120/240 split-phase units? He said the inverter will operate in full split phase mode with one module inoperative, just at half power.
That don't really sound like a FX inverter in that module to me.
--
Chris
Quote from: ChrisOlson on April 14, 2013, 11:02:31 PM
Old thread, I guess. Got the warning that it's more than 120 days old. Oh well.....
We looked at and considered a Radian system before we bought our XW6048. We ended up choosing the XW because of several reasons, and I was not satisfied with the answers to my questions on the Radian, nor its track record - they have had some teething problems.
But what confuses me is that if it is really two FX inverters, why did the dealer tell us that the modules are independent 4 kVA 120/240 split-phase units? He said the inverter will operate in full split phase mode with one module inoperative, just at half power.
That don't really sound like a FX inverter in that module to me.
--
Chris
Any "teething" problems have long since been addressed via firmware updates. I'm not aware of any major or minor design changes to the Radian since it's release. The one shown here in this thread has been online since last December primarily in UPS backup mode. At least once a week I disconnect from the grid and run off the battery until it's down to about 50-60% SOC for testing and exercise purposes.
With my specific "critical" loads it gets around 8-12 hours run time before hitting that 50-60% SOC. Close to 200 hours so far with no problems at all.
Please see post/reply #3 in this thread from Robin Gudgel, the founder of Outback. He has confirmed that the "FET" board in the Radian is identical to the ones used in the FX/VFX inverters. Pics of it posted here back that up. Beyond the FET boards is where the differences begin, but the heart and soul of a Radian is based on the FX/VFX inverters.
As to the split phase question: The following is taken from an Outback/Sunwize.com webinar and hits the nail on the head.
Q: I would like to know the architecture of the unit. I am assuming it is two outbacks
but then you said it can run on one only inverter and output 240. Does it have an auto
transformer?
A: The Radian inverter has two identical 4kW 240V split-phase power modules, as well
as an AC and control board stack. Each power module is a dumb device, designed to
process power. At low power levels, the inverter operates on one module and as loads
increase the second module is brought online. Since each power module is full 240V
split-phase output, an auto transformer is not required nor desired.If one of the modules were to fail you would still have 120/240 at 4KW available. I looked around at all the other available inverters and with future plans to be 100% off grid the choice was easy to go with the Radian. 8)
Quote from: onanparts on April 15, 2013, 05:42:32 AM
If one of the modules were to fail you would still have 120/240 at 4KW available. I looked around at all the other available inverters and with future plans to be 100% off grid the choice was easy to go with the Radian. 8)
Thanks - that's what the dealer told us.
Outback has never seen fit to integrate more than an aux port for off-grid generators. No three-wire gen support (the most common off-grid) without buying a third-party dongle. Since generators (both primary and backup) are an integral part of an off-grid power system, when Outback sees fit to build a decent AGS that integrates with the rest of the system, then I'll consider one again. Otherwise they're only good for grid-tie.
Another area where the dealer could not answer my questions to my satisfaction was in the area of using the generator for peak load support with a Radian. The common theme seemed to be "with the Radian you won't need it". I tried to explain that we use it as tool to manage power consumption from the RE sources for heavy loads, and prevent ever having to use the generator for battery charging, but that didn't register. They just kept repeating "Oh, the Radian has big surge capacity so it won't be a problem'. These people have obviously never lived off-grid so they don't have clue. And my questions as to how it handles Load and Gen Support as compared the SW/SW Plus that we've used for years went unanswered.
We "toured" a running Radian system that was being used off-grid, but it was not set up properly and they had a 12 kW generator on it, plus had had a module failure and a control board failure in it and had shut down on them twice in less than a year. I was not impressed after being used to running SW's 24/7 for 9 years without ever being shut down and never losing power once.
Nice looking system. But not proven enough for me. If there's a problem when you're off-grid the fuel bill in the generator will balance the Federal Budget in one shot if you're without the inverter for any length of time, so I tend to choose stuff with a proven track record.
--
Chris
Really, 9 years without ever losing power once?
I seem to remember a few years ago you were telling all of us on Fieldlines to buy the chinese MSW inverters that you were using because they were so great, and you could swap them out in 15 minutes in the dark with one hand tied behind your back when they failed.
Quote from: dbcollen on April 15, 2013, 07:03:25 PM
Really, 9 years without ever losing power once?
The first SW that I bought used ran from 10/18/2001 to 3/6/2011 without ever being shut down, only 30 miles from here. I bought it, then a month later bought two SW Plus 4024's brand new in the box, and traded the SW.
The inverter we had before that - a Schumacher MSW - ran here from June 2002 to October 2009 without ever a single problem other than low voltage shutdown a few times when we ran out of power. I bought the first AIMS MSW inverter, a 12V model, and ran it in tandem with the Schumacher. I still have that AIMS inverter, although it is now in our fifth wheel RV. I only had problems with the 24V AIMS inverter in the first two weeks we owned it, and AIMS replaced it. That's when I bought the SW4024.
So, yes, I know well the difference between inverters that just run, and ones that have problems.
And I never said MSW is the greatest thing just because you can swap them out behind your back, or whatever. I said MSW is fine for many folks for off-grid use, and the Trace DR-series inverters proved that many times over the years. Our needs changed with time so we changed equipment when we had the money to change it. I hope that's not a problem.
As a side note - the Radian system we looked at was being used off-grid but they also had grid power there. They had a 12 kW generator hooked up to the Radian. But they had never hooked up the grid power to it. Instead they had a generator transfer switch they used to switch from grid power to off-grid power when they wanted to. They had 16 golf cart batteries (225 ah I believe) and were using a 12 kW generator to charge that little battery bank when they wanted to be off-grid (along with some solar panels on the roof).
The dealer had recommended it as a way to look over a running system, the people that owned it said it was OK to come see it, and the dealer had installed it. But I wasn't really all that impressed with it.
On the same trip, on the way home, we stopped at a place the Schneider dealer had recommended to see a running XW system. We were pretty impressed with it. It was a grid-tie/sell back net-metered system with 6 kW solar, a small battery bank, two XW-MPPT60 controllers on the solar, and a 6 kW EcoGen. It had been installed and running for three years.
After seeing both systems we chose the XW because it had the features we wanted, the XW's have been around since late 2006 and are proven units, and we could buy it from a dealer that did a much cleaner and more well thought-out installation than what we saw with the Radian.
IF the Radian had an integrated system for three-wire generators where all the programming for generator starting parameters (including logging, crank time, preheat, spindown, etc.) could be done from the Mate3, I would've more strongly considered one, despite what we saw with the one we looked at. But my wife is half the buying power here and first impression is sometimes the one that sways the decision. And her first impression of the XW installation was instant "this is the one we're getting".
Although we do have a Outback product - a PSX-240 on the distribution panel for split-phase leg balancing ;D
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vzuf7Bxlq0E/UWyYn38qkJI/AAAAAAAAG1M/xewsDziamzQ/s640/100_2811.JPG)
--
Chris
Chris
I have to agree Outback missed a good opportunity to fix some things and did not. The XW really is the Off Grid king at this moment as far as basic function and feature set. Gen support is a big deal for most of us off grid and the XW does that nicely.
Ryan
Ryan, I wanted to see a Radian being used with generator support. The dealer misunderstood generator support to mean a 12 kW Generac being using to charge batteries on low voltage auto-start. He didn't understand it even when I explained it to him. I wanted to see how Outback implemented that function in the GS8048.
The Trace/Xantrex/Schneider inverters have always had that and it's a known feature that works. So it was sort of like "known" vs "unknown" and I wanted to see it demonstrated. I guess the GVFX-series inverters can do it but they are notoriously picky about what generators it will work with using the Grid Support function in them.
The downside to the XW is that they're pretty loud at 6-7 kW load. That's not an issue for us because our inverter is in a separate utility room. The Radian we looked at could not be demonstrated at any serious load because the 16 golf cart batteries that were on it dropped below 46 volts immediately if he turned on his heat pump. He had to use the generator to run that. But it was not exactly what I'd call quiet either. There was a definite XW-like "buzz" from the modules in it with just a 4 kW load on it, plus fan noise.
So it was a disappointing demonstration because I didn't feel it was set up right and I wanted to see one put thru its paces to see what it's got.
--
Chris
Well I think SMA and Schneider are the only 2 doing what I would call TRUE generator support. I understand Magnum is working on it. Outback has it in there military grade inverter but never implemented it in the FX or Radian either AFAIK. I think they are both close to the same noise wise although the XW can get some funky harmonic resonation going on but hey don't put the inverter in the bedroom right?
Bottom line is if I had to go drop coin for a new off grid inverter today I would really have to scratch my head. If I totally forgot where they where built IE china, India etc and based it solely on function and features I think Xantrex Win's as the name says.
I am not a fan of the Magnum simply because of the slow regulation. It is a great product for the money and is USA made but I cant get past the slow regulation and my lights almost going out every time the fridge starts.
In fairness I have not yet tried the SMA Sunny Island and will report back in a month or so after I get some seat time on the Sunny Island. I am a little nervous as it appears to be smarter than me. It does everything of SOC so if it thinks the batteries are at say 95%SOC it will not allow the generator to charge no matter what the battery voltage is, or so I am told. I also understand a lot of this stuff can be defeated and it works very well so I am excited to see anyways.
Ryan
I've heard really good things about the SMA Sunny Island Inverters. Nobody I have talked to that has one has any real complaints on it.
But I would still like to see a Radian sometime with a real battery bank on it put thru its paces. It's a big inverter and I think I would've liked the extra couple kVA capacity for running my welder and stuff. Although I've loaded the XW well over 8 kVA for up to five minutes and it doesn't seem to have a problem. It's just the idea that the GS8048 is bigger and got more capacity so maybe I could run my welder when my wife is load testing equipment in the house without having to check to see if the clothes dryer is going first ;D
Quote from: Halfcrazy on April 16, 2013, 08:22:54 AM
Well I think SMA and Schneider are the only 2 doing what I would call TRUE generator support.
They claim the Radian does have Generator Support, but then they qualify it:
Generators fall into two broad categories – high quality, and crappy. Support mode can be used to augment (support) an AC source to help power large loads. It also has the ability to "firm" or clean up the voltage waveform. This can be used with either grid power or a high quality generator. If the customer has a low quality generator with a noisy or irregular waveform, Support may not workSo Gen Support is probably not TRUE Gen Support, as you say. The shining ray of light with the Trace/Xantrex/Schneider inverters has always been that they will accept virtually anything that puts out alternating current on the AC2 input, and deal with it by supplementing power and "cleaning up" a "dirty" generator during Gen Support Mode. This is pretty important for off-grid because there's a wide variety of gas and diesel generators out there with everything from slow governors to gen heads with high THD.
I guess we'll have to wait to see what Magnum comes up with in the MSH4024RE. But it sounds like Gen Support in the Radian is pretty much like Gen Support in the GVFX - it might work and it might not. And that's why I wanted to see it demonstrated before I bought one.
--
Chris
From the Radian manual:
Support
This mode is intended for systems that use the utility grid or a generator. In some cases, the amount
of current available from the source is limited due to size, wiring, or other reasons. If large loads need
to be run, the Radian inverter augments (supports) the AC source, adding inverter and battery power
to ensure that the loads receive the power they demand.
In the MATE3 system display, the Grid Input AC Limit dictates the maximum AC draw for the Grid
input. The Gen Input AC Limit sets the maximum draw for the Gen input. This function takes effect if
the AC draw on the appropriate input exceeds its setting.
Radian AC Input Frequency Range 54 – 66 Hz.
GVFX3648 Input Frequency Range 58 - 62 Hz.
As you can see the Radian has a much wider range concerning AC input Frequency.
All other Outback models are very picky about the AC input. The Radian is designed to work with a wide range of Gensets, cheap or high end, along with a wide range of clean or dirty AC grid inputs.
All of my gensets are Onan 1860 RPM 4 pole units with very clean regulated output. I'll borrow the neighbors cheap no name genny, big box store or Harbor Freight etc. and see how the Radian responds to some dirty AC input.
A note on off grid welding:
My primary backup gensets are portable Onan powered welder/generators. A Miller Legend and Trailblazer. The Legend is rated 5KW AC power 120/240 with a 10KW surge rating, 200 amps AC/DC weld side. 1860 RPM power side, 3000 RPM weld side.
The Trailblazer is 4KW AC power with 250 welding amps AC/DC CC/CV and set up for Mig and Tig so it does anything I ever want as far as welding projects. Running a welder off the inverter is not something I ever plan or need to do. Maybe a small 120V Mig for a quick fix repair job etc. but that's it.
Anybody that relies on a single off grid inverter will at some point be in the dark or stuck running the genset until repair/replacement can be done.
My Radian will be keeping company with a pair of VFX3524 outbacks and in the near future I'm looking forward to a Midnite Inverter joining the club. 8)
Multiple RE sources, Hydro, PV and maybe Wind + 3-4 quality welder/gensets that should not see much run time and a single inverter failure will not be an issue for me.
I'm on the grid now but when I'm off it Mr. Redundant will be my best friend. ;D
Quote from: onanparts on April 17, 2013, 02:29:02 AM
In the MATE3 system display, the Grid Input AC Limit dictates the maximum AC draw for the Grid
input. The Gen Input AC Limit sets the maximum draw for the Gen input. This function takes effect if
the AC draw on the appropriate input exceeds its setting.
The whole idea with generator support in an off-grid power system is to use a smaller, more fuel efficient generator to manage peak loads, in conjunction with a smaller and less expensive inverter, and smaller battery bank, and never use the generator for battery charging.
When an off-grid generator starts, the most efficient use of fuel (kWh/gallon) is if the generator runs at it's continuous or prime power capacity. Correctly sizing the inverter, generator and battery bank requires an intimate knowledge of your average loads, peak loads, and daily consumption.
Since you have never lived off-grid I will inform you right up front that the most expensive thing for off-grid is not inverters or generators, solar panels or wind turbines. It is batteries. Do the math. Just the replacement cost of your battery bank, not taking anything else into account, costs you more money on a monthly basis that it costs to buy grid power. Our first battery bank lasted us from June 2002 to November 2009. Our new Surrette bank cost $9,600. Those batteries cost us $107.86/month just to own them.
There's some factors when you live off-grid:
-big inverters require big battery bank to use the inverter at its full capacity
-Big battery bank costs more money in the long term
-Batteries store and deliver the same amount of energy over their useful life whether you shallow cycle them or deep cycle them
-the inverter and generator together should be sized to meet peak loads with their combined output, plus 25% reserve
-the generator should be sized no bigger than what is required to meet the bank's C/10 charge rate with the inverter/charger, or get max capacity from the inverter's charger, whichever is smaller
-the battery bank should be sized based on daily consumption minus peak load support from the generator times 1.5
-using a generator to charge batteries with an inverter/charger is one of the most horribly inefficient setups ever invented by man
-using a generator for peak load support where gen power goes directly to loads to take the load off the RE system, and thereby reduce your battery expense long term, is very efficient use of an off-grid generator.
Outback missed the mark in several areas with the Radian, IMHO, for off-grid power. They had nothing that could compete with the XW, so the Radian was the answer. Except the XW is available in three different sizes and two different price ranges and voltage configurations, and has integrated AGS (necessary to properly implement Gen Support). The Radian is more suited to grid-tie with battery backup because few people who live off-grid are going to spend the money on the battery bank it requires to operate the thing at full rated capacity for even two hours (see above on the cost of batteries).
--
Chris
Quote from: ChrisOlson on April 15, 2013, 07:24:41 PM
Although we do have a Outback product - a PSX-240 on the distribution panel for split-phase leg balancing ;D
I didn't realize that a PSX-240 made enough breeze to measure with an anemometer ::) --vtMaps
Quote from: ChrisOlson on April 17, 2013, 06:50:53 AM
Since you have never lived off-grid I will inform you right up front that the most expensive thing for off-grid is not inverters or generators, solar panels or wind turbines. It is batteries. Do the math. Just the replacement cost of your battery bank, not taking anything else into account, costs you more money on a monthly basis that it costs to buy grid power. Our first battery bank lasted us from June 2002 to November 2009. Our new Surrette bank cost $9,600. Those batteries cost us $107.86/month just to own them.
Chris
20+ years of comfortable and efficient Micro-Hydro off-grid living behind us with more to come. Amazing how many people don't know what the first three letters in ASSume mean. ::)
Feel free to take your dissatisfaction concerning the Radian inverter to the OUTBACK FORUMS.
Quote from: vtmaps on April 17, 2013, 08:37:56 AM
I didn't realize that a PSX-240 made enough breeze to measure with an anemometer ::) --vtMaps
That's the spare one. I don't know how it ended up on top of the transformer - must've looked like a good place to put it at the time ;D
Quote from: onanparts on April 17, 2013, 02:41:33 PM
Feel free to take your dissatisfaction concerning the Radian inverter to the OUTBACK FORUMS.
Not dissatisfaction - reservations as to whether they did it right and a dealer that couldn't show me that they did it right. When they start talking about Gen Support and setting it with a single setting based on input amps, the alarms go off because that's now its done with a generator. That's a grid-tie adaptation from the Grid Support side of it with the word "Gen" tacked on it. The inverters that do real gen support not only have an AC2 input limit for surge capacity from the generator for support, but also a Gen Support Amps setting that is set to the prime power rating of the generator. This prevents a gen from getting disqualified during surge so it can immediately resume load instead of sitting there burning fuel waiting for inverter to requalify it because the surge load went past the AC2 input limit. This is how the GVFX and GFX do it, and it's not true Gen Support.
We burn thru an average of 25 kWh/day and roughly 6 kWh of it comes from the generator every day on peak load support. It's a very important feature for us that HAS to work properly because our system is designed around it. The XW was "known quantity" because it "just works". I haven't met anybody, including talking with tech support at Outback, that can show me how it works on a Radian, or demonstrate it in a real everyday off-grid installation. And being they don't have an integrated AGS with the proper settings in it to tune it, well, that would be a good start.
The GS8048, just like the FX-series, only has an AUX output. It does not communicate with the gen controller directly. And I'm not about to drag a laptop out to the utility room just to program a frickin' Atkinson controller when it should be able to done right at the inverter's control panel.
I have no interest in the Outback forum. They're the ones that tried to sell us a Radian inverter and failed to demonstrate what I wanted to see, or know about how it works. They could also not tell me if it even has a PF corrected charger in it, which is also important for Gen Support efficiency because the generator uses it between the Start Load and Stop Load amp settings to recover the bank from an overload on the time delay before the inverter starts it on Load Amps.
So these are all the factors. You got a "known" that has a proven track record and has been around for years. And you got an unknown that was supposedly bred and born from a previous architecture where these features were always talked about but never implemented. When you have to make that decision the "known" is generally a better bet. And that's why I was interested to find out out if there's really a FX inverter in each one of those modules in a Radian. Because if there is then Gen Support is not properly implemented in it, and all they did was take Grid Support and tack "Gen" on it.
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Chris
On this Gen Support issue in off-grid inverters, Magnum Energy is supposed to be releasing their new MSH4024RE this quarter. It's been over a year in testing. It will be 120V only, only available the 4 kVA 24V model and non-stackable. But it has dual AC inputs, so you should be able to hook two generators up to it.
Being Magnum has been testing this thing for a year, and I talked to them about a year ago about it, it will be very interesting to see how they implemented the Gen Support feature. The price on it is a few bucks higher than than the standard MS4024 (they got it on their price list).
I have a feeling that if Magnum gets this one right, they will become the new standard in off-grid inverters with Gen Support. Just because they're available in 24V (which is way more common than 48V for off-grid cabins and whatnot), and are a smaller, lighter form factor that's easier to install. I've been waiting for that MSH4024RE for the last year because I want to buy one for our boat. We got an old PowerTech 24V inverter in the boat that's older than dirt, and noisier than our onboard Yanmar diesel generator.
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Chris
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Radian Dual Differential Comparators