Woo Hoo!
Does that mean that the WBj is now available for sale?
Has it been shipped to retailers? :) :) or :'(
We are boxing them as we speak and I should have them on the website today
Ryan
The install sheet should be done by the end of the weekend. Had some things come up
today, Friday and I'm taking part of the weekend off to play some music.
The install sheet basically shows you how to attach the WB Jr. to the 500A shunt and
connect the single wire to the Aux 2 hot terminal, etc.
boB
Quote from: boB on October 05, 2013, 03:27:16 AM
I'm taking part of the weekend off to play some music.
The install sheet basically shows you how to attach the WB Jr. to the 500A shunt and
connect the single wire to the Aux 2 hot terminal, etc.
boB
Whats up with taking time off? :o
Just curious how this will work with multiple Classics and multiple Inverters?
Many other questions for another thread and when you get back from Jammin, of course.
Tom
Quote from: boB on October 05, 2013, 03:27:16 AM
The install sheet basically shows you how to attach the WB Jr. to the 500A shunt
boB
boB, Is it safe to assume that all shunts previously supplied in an E-panel are compatible with the WB Jr?
Tom can you split these Q's into another thread?
Tks
I think I got the right ones. Maybe an extra? If one needs to go back to the other thread I can probably fix that.
Tom
Quote from: Westbranch on October 05, 2013, 12:28:12 PM
Quote from: boB on October 05, 2013, 03:27:16 AM
The install sheet basically shows you how to attach the WB Jr. to the 500A shunt
boB
boB, Is it safe to assume that all shunts previously supplied in an E-panel are compatible with the WB Jr?
Tom can you split these Q's into another thread?
Tks
yes the shunts we have used for years are the correct ones. 500A / 50mv shunts. We are boxing these now and boB will have the instructions done tomorrow so yes they will be ready to purchase Monday.
Ryan
Quote from: Halfcrazy on October 05, 2013, 03:42:51 PM
yes the shunts we have used for years are the correct ones. 500A / 50mv shunts. We are boxing these now and boB will have the instructions done tomorrow so yes they will be ready to purchase Monday.
Ryan
Ryan;
Great, that means my E-Panels are ready to go with the WBjr.
Tom
Quote from: Halfcrazy on October 04, 2013, 01:25:13 PM
We are boxing them as we speak and I should have them on the website today
Ryan
Yeah!!! :) :) :)
Has anyone found a retailer that knows when they will have them in stock?
nope don't think anyone does ,cuz i have been luring on the internet to see if any retailers has them not as yet the dont
Quote from: Tons001 on October 06, 2013, 08:03:56 PM
Has anyone found a retailer that knows when they will have them in stock?
Well there appears to be some miss information going on with the retailers and Midnite. I sent a note to NAWS and this is their reply. :o
On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:58 AM, "SALES" <sales@wind-sun.com> wrote:
That’s strange I called MidNite about this product and they do not even have all of the parts yet for them so I’m not sure how they could be shipping them…
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:32 AM
To: SALES
Subject: Re: Sales Inquiry
Thanks, Midnite claims to be shipping them now and they are on their current price list.
John
On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:04 AM, "SALES" <sales@wind-sun.com> wrote:
When those come out we will be carrying them. They should be out by the end of the month.
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 10:46 PM
To: sales@wind-sun.com
Subject: Sales Inquiry
Will you folks be carrying the Midnite Wizbang Jr current sense module
Hi Resthome ...
Well, both things could be true.
MidNite Engineering COULD possibly building some & packing them, at the very least.
The MidNite crew is an optimistic lot, but last minute things do come up.
For me, another week or so will not be the end of the world.
Opinions, based on no real data. Vic
Quote from: Resthome on October 08, 2013, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: Tons001 on October 06, 2013, 08:03:56 PM
Has anyone found a retailer that knows when they will have them in stock?
Well there appears to be some miss information going on with the retailers and Midnite. I sent a note to NAWS and this is their reply. :o
On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:58 AM, "SALES" <sales@wind-sun.com> wrote:
That’s strange I called MidNite about this product and they do not even have all of the parts yet for them so I’m not sure how they could be shipping them…
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:32 AM
To: SALES
Subject: Re: Sales Inquiry
Thanks, Midnite claims to be shipping them now and they are on their current price list.
John
On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:04 AM, "SALES" <sales@wind-sun.com> wrote:
When those come out we will be carrying them. They should be out by the end of the month.
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 10:46 PM
To: sales@wind-sun.com
Subject: Sales Inquiry
Will you folks be carrying the Midnite Wizbang Jr current sense module
While these are new, I can assure you we have parts and instructions in house. I would like to know who they talked to at MidNite?
I do not suspect any retailers in the US have any in stock as I pointed out Friday we where boxing them. So none have shipped although a few distributors have sent orders so I suspect they will start getting filled today.
Ryan
Quote from: Vic on October 08, 2013, 04:00:52 PM
Hi Resthome ...
Well, both things could be true.
MidNite Engineering COULD possibly building some & packing them, at the very least.
The MidNite crew is an optimistic lot, but last minute things do come up.
For me, another week or so will not be the end of the world.
Opinions, based on no real data. Vic
Vic.. I'm pretty sure there is going to be a big demand for these. In my case we will be closing up the place for the winter this weekend or next and it would have been nice to have it and the new firmware in place so it could be evaluated for a few days before closing up. It is most likely that it will be a few weeks before the retailers get set up. I'm working with a new set of Solar One battery and would have much preferred a workable end amp solution while they are unattended for the next 3-4 months. I'll just have to adjust my charging parameters for a no load cool weather situations and wait until the spring. That way you and the rest of the gang can work out any bugs and boB can enhance the firmware. Cheers. ;D
Does anyone know if this new device would be able to share the shunt that the Trimetric meter is already using or will it need a separate one ?
It will work in conjunction with another monitor system no problem.
Ryan
So looking at the photo - the plastic part is the WB jr. ? Looks like it has some electronics in it. Will it be supplied with the shunt or is that optional ? Looks like it would need longer tap screws than what I have on my present shunt to attach it .
Instructions are up.
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Whizbang_Jr_-_Install-1.pdf
And if you guys are worrying about what retailers have them in the USA, how long do you think we'll be waiting in Australia!
Read the literature. This device looks great ! From what I read won't really need the Trimetric meter any longer because the main thing I wanted from it was to know from it was if amps in equaled the amps out every day.
Is it possible in the future that either Local Status Panel or MyMidnite will be able to report Whizbang Jr readings ? Otherwise I guess it is time to make a long cable to bring the Classic Display inside where I can watch it up close and personal.
Any ballpark figure on pricing for a Whizbang Jr ?
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on October 08, 2013, 09:49:03 PM
Any ballpark figure on pricing for a Whizbang Jr ?
$59.00 US dollars per Midnite's Price list.
That is a reasonable price - glad to hear it . And maybe the dealers will discount off of that. Can't wait to get one and try it out .
Quote from: DevoDave on October 08, 2013, 08:53:55 PM
Instructions are up.
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Whizbang_Jr_-_Install-1.pdf
And if you guys are worrying about what retailers have them in the USA, how long do you think we'll be waiting in Australia!
Funny thing is they are already in Australia. DC Solar Solutions has a some enroute or there already.
Ryan
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on October 08, 2013, 09:49:03 PM
Read the literature. This device looks great ! From what I read won't really need the Trimetric meter any longer because the main thing I wanted from it was to know from it was if amps in equaled the amps out every day.
Is it possible in the future that either Local Status Panel or MyMidnite will be able to report Whizbang Jr readings ? Otherwise I guess it is time to make a long cable to bring the Classic Display inside where I can watch it up close and personal.
Any ballpark figure on pricing for a Whizbang Jr ?
We have already added the Instantaneous amps to the local app and yes My Midnite and the local app will be getting full blown reporting asap
Ryan
Ryan or boB;
How does this work with dual Classics & inverters? My concern is that my Wind Classic uses the AUX2 to control the Clipper and I either missed it or it is not covered in the installation pdf posted.This is all I saw about 2:
Quote
If you have 2 or
more Classics connected using Follow-Me mode, the other Classics
should follow the Classic connected to the WhizBang Junior.
I, perhaps mistakenly, thought it would require 2X WBjr's for a dual system such as mine? Each Classic and inverter has its own shunt so both must be factored in. Or it seems it would be that way.
Thanks for any explanation you can offer. I am probably not the only one running a stacked set of inverters with 2 Classics on separate feeds to / from a single bank.
Tom
Well the best way would be to have one common shunt in the DC negative. So if you had a pair of inverters each having there own battery cables I would land them both on a single shunt and then go to the battery.
Ryan
Quote from: TomW on October 09, 2013, 11:38:11 AM
Ryan or boB;
How does this work with dual Classics & inverters? My concern is that my Wind Classic uses the AUX2 to control the Clipper and I either missed it or it is not covered in the installation pdf posted.This is all I saw about 2:
Quote
If you have 2 or
more Classics connected using Follow-Me mode, the other Classics
should follow the Classic connected to the WhizBang Junior.
I, perhaps mistakenly, thought it would require 2X WBjr's for a dual system such as mine? Each Classic and inverter has its own shunt so both must be factored in. Or it seems it would be that way.
Thanks for any explanation you can offer. I am probably not the only one running a stacked set of inverters with 2 Classics on separate feeds to / from a single bank.
Tom
Tom, I should probably re-word that part about following in that the Classic without the MNWBJr will follow the one with the WB Jr. as far as charge stages go. So, if the wind Classic is doing most of the Absorbing or the Classic with the MNWBJR is Resting, then the Follow-Me won't quite work right. This is where, in a future revision, (sooner than later hopefully), the Follow-Me information can also include the WB Jr. shunt current so that all Classics in the network can benefit.
Also, if you folks have some good ideas, don't hesitate to share them !
boB
Quote from: Halfcrazy on October 09, 2013, 01:48:31 PM
Well the best way would be to have one common shunt in the DC negative. So if you had a pair of inverters each having there own battery cables I would land them both on a single shunt and then go to the battery.
Ryan
Ryan;
Yeah, I figured as much.
I hate to find holes or problems but..
What happens when someone with a Wind only Classic setup wants a WBjr and the AUX2 is doing Clipper Control duty?
Sorry, It is my curse seeing problems that may or may not exist. Drives my wife nuts. :o
In the words of "Odd Ball" in
Kelly's Heroes "Stop with the negative waves, man". ::)
Tom
My four AUX connections on two Classics are all used between Clipper and hot water control.
Any plans or current activity on either multiplexing input and output on an AUX2 (assuming the WB single wire connection is input only to the Classic)
or having the WB connection via the USB port or one of the internal network connections?
dgd
BTW, Thank You to the MidNite crew for getting the Whiz Bang into production and shipping is a very short time.
This will be a huge benefit for many of us, and, obviously another great selling point for the Classic line of CCs. Thanks! Vic
Quote from: dgd on October 09, 2013, 04:12:08 PM
My four AUX connections on two Classics are all used between Clipper and hot water control.
Any plans or current activity on either multiplexing input and output on an AUX2 (assuming the WB single wire connection is input only to the Classic)
or having the WB connection via the USB port or one of the internal network connections?
dgd
This might be where the WhizBang Senior might come in handy.
Quote from: boB on October 09, 2013, 09:23:59 PM
This might be where the WhizBang Senior might come in handy.
I suppose with a Jr there had to be a Snr...
I'm still wondering if the name WhizzBang and release in October with probable acquisition by users near end October (Haloween) is just a coincidence
rather than indicative of its possible effect on RE systems... :D
Dare I ask for Snr info and possible spec and possible release? It wouldn't by any chance be a proper battery monitor and therefore of use for dealing with LiFePO4 batteries?
dgd
Quote from: dgd on October 09, 2013, 10:12:56 PM
Quote from: boB on October 09, 2013, 09:23:59 PM
This might be where the WhizBang Senior might come in handy.
I suppose with a Jr there had to be a Snr...
I'm still wondering if the name WhizzBang and release in October with probable acquisition by users near end October (Haloween) is just a coincidence
rather than indicative of its possible effect on RE systems... :D
Dare I ask for Snr info and possible spec and possible release? It wouldn't by any chance be a proper battery monitor and therefore of use for dealing with LiFePO4 batteries?
dgd
No, not something to do with LiFePO4 batteries. That is the job of the Battery Management System (BMS) for the particular battery...
We'll let the battery guys deal with all that. But we can add more control to the controller like, being able to turn off the charger from
an external input or software communications control of various parameters. Didn't you request one of those features ?
Then watch out for the "Caption Billy WhizBang" !
Happy Halloween !
(no coincidence with the relase of the WB Jr. though)
boB
This is a product I have been hanging out for so I welcome its arrival. I do have a question though.
It looks like the software additions to take advantage of the WBjr's shunt data have been written to show energy in/out as Amp hr's . Considering Amp hrs units dont paint the full picture of how much energy has been transfer or consumed unless voltage is also part of the equation.
A lot of people are using battery chemistry (LED ACID) that can span a 20% voltage swing over a charge cycle. For example a 48v system potentially start out as low as 50v and peek at 60v from start of charge to end of charge. So you migh get a AH number at the end of the day but that alone isn't a accurate total energy number without knowing the voltage at over that time. (sorry I know most already know this )
I would really like to see whrs or kwh used as the unit of measure for total energy in/out. Is this possible or am
I missing it and its already there?
I know the classic its self shows output in both Amp,voltage and the two together as watts.
It would be great for example at the end of the day to see I have pumped 10kw into my battery and consumed 8kw from them all visually from the local app.
Kurt
Quote from: offgridQLD on October 10, 2013, 10:55:44 PM
It would be great for example at the end of the day to see I have pumped 10kw into my battery and consumed 8kw from them all visually from the local app.
Kurt
Yes, we will definitely get to that, Kurt... Amp-hours is pretty useful to start with.
kW-Hours is very useful too. But energy efficiency is typically lower than amp-hour
efficiency so as far as state of charge goes, amp-hours are a bit closer for knowing
the SOC if the Absorb cycle has ended when the battery was full.
Anyhow, we'll get the kW-Hours in and out coming soon I think.
thanks !
boB
boB
A humble request to midnite
With the whizbang out can someone at midnite solar shed some light on how to properly calculate or estimate ending amps .
Hi mahendra,
I am NOT at MidNite,
However, I do forget exactly what batteries you are running, and your interest may not be for your batteries anyway.
Generally for FLA batteries, you would look for an EA value between 1 and 2% of 20 hour Capacity. The Absorption voltage setting is also a factor, but the above percentages generally are in the range that works with Vabs in the recommended range from the battery manufacturer of the batteries being charged.
There is probably also a temperature variable that will also affect the exact setting required.
With Flooded batteries, it is fairly easy to check the desired EA value with a Hydrometer/Refractomter.
For SLA batteries, it is best to use the recommended values from the manufacturer of the batteries.
One can also look for the charge current delivered to the batteries, and when the rate of change in this current plateaus, this is also a good indication that the ultimate return current has been reached, or it is very close to that value indicated.
For Sealed batteries, resting voltage is a very good indication of SOC (when temperature-compensated).
For the Surrette FLA banks here, 1.0% of ACTUAL 20 Hr Capacity, as measured at the Shunt is the ideal, at nominal Surrette-recommended Vabs, FWIW.
YNNV. Vic
i used 4 deka agm 245ah in parallel which gives me about 980ah give and take inefficiencies. run light loads mostly.
Hi mahendra.
Thanks for the info.
You have probably consulted the Deka data regarding their recommended EA values. SOME manufacturers of AGM batteries recommend such an infinitesimally small EA value, that the jitter in charge current is greater than this recommended Ending current. Hope that Deka is not one of those mfgs.
So for you, probably watching for the charge current into the batteries to reach its plateau, and using that plateau value as EA is a good start. And if you could confirm this experimental EA value with resting voltage measurement, you should be fairly confident.
Looks like you have four batteries in parallel, which COULD make resting V measurements a bit easier, (or not).
Good Luck, Vic
thanks Vic
Quote from: Halfcrazy on October 09, 2013, 05:59:36 AM
Funny thing is they are already in Australia. DC Solar Solutions has a some enroute or there already.
Ryan
Thanks Ryan, I have sent them an email.
You can connect more than one "similar" shunt using sensor.
The phrase is "cooperative attachment".
So far, it appears to work just fine.
Quote from: boB on October 12, 2013, 01:10:35 AM
You can connect more than one "similar" shunt using sensor.
The phrase is "cooperative attachment".
So far, it appears to work just fine.
boB;
So on my dual system with identical shunts I would attach one WBjr to each and the violet sense wires together and then a single wire to the Aux2 on one of the Classics?
Thanks.
Tom
Quote from: TomW on October 12, 2013, 07:22:13 AM
Quote from: boB on October 12, 2013, 01:10:35 AM
You can connect more than one "similar" shunt using sensor.
The phrase is "cooperative attachment".
So far, it appears to work just fine.
boB;
So on my dual system with identical shunts I would attach one WBjr to each and the violet sense wires together and then a single wire to the Aux2 on one of the Classics?
Thanks.
Tom
No, sorry that won't work.
Each Whizbang Jr. needs its own host Classic to read it.
This example is if you have one shunt and a WB Jr. and a Trimetric or a Magnum BMK etc.
Quote from: boB on October 12, 2013, 12:59:34 PM
No, sorry that won't work.
Each Whizbang Jr. needs its own host Classic to read it.
This example is if you have one shunt and a WB Jr. and a Trimetric or a Magnum BMK etc.
boB;
Phooey. I need one AUX2 for Clipper control. Guess I will need to use the single shunt option
Thanks for the feedback.
Tom
Quote from: TomW on October 12, 2013, 01:33:57 PM
Quote from: boB on October 12, 2013, 12:59:34 PM
No, sorry that won't work.
Each Whizbang Jr. needs its own host Classic to read it.
This example is if you have one shunt and a WB Jr. and a Trimetric or a Magnum BMK etc.
boB;
Phooey. I need one AUX2 for Clipper control. Guess I will need to use the single shunt option
Thanks for the feedback.
Tom
Well, when Aux 1 gets PWM in addition to its present slower diversion, then you can use one of your Aux 1 outputs for that Clipper and you will have an extra Aux 2 for another WB Jr.
Quote from: boB on October 12, 2013, 02:46:42 PM
Well, when Aux 1 gets PWM in addition to its present slower diversion, then you can use one of your Aux 1 outputs for that Clipper and you will have an extra Aux 2 for another WB Jr.
Gee, boB it never truly ends for you does it? :o Just when you think you can kick back and relax someone sticks more stuff in your in box!
Hopefully that is a software item not hardware to change how the AUX1 works?
Quote from: boB on October 10, 2013, 01:52:29 PM
But we can add more control to the controller like, being able to turn off the charger from
an external input or software communications control of various parameters. Didn't you request one of those features ?
Then watch out for the "Caption Billy WhizBang" !
boB
Yes I did request the aux input to shut off Classic output.
But then I ran into the
not enough AUX input/outputs for everything I would like to control problem.
Which sort of brings me back to my original question - multiplexing AUX2 input and output. Although I suspect from a hardware viewpoint this may not be possible as a single wire connection to the WBjr probably means its getting its power via that wire. I thought that if sampling the WBjr data was only every second or more then some nifty software switching between input/output modes could work. Maybe even the brief disconnection of PWM output may be tolerable in most situations to allow a brief data read from WBjr.
Anway, just my thoughts..
dgd
midnite why not design a small niffty componet like the whizbang to give more aux output/input so those who would like to add more output/input to their classic can do so.Just a suggestion .i am not an expert of any kind.
Quote from: mahendra on October 12, 2013, 07:28:37 PM
midnite why not design a small niffty componet like the whizbang to give more aux output/input so those who would like to add more output/input to their classic can do so.Just a suggestion .i am not an expert of any kind.
Well, I think you've hit the nail right on the head, Mahendra !
DGD, Aux 2 was designed to be input/output/analog/digital but no multiplexing it I'm afraid to be 2 terminals
instead of one. But wait !.... Nahhh... nevermind.
Tom, on Aux 1 being able to do PWM, that is a software only issue. Luckily no extra hardware required.
boB
A really old, crusty tube era electronics engineer once told me the ultimate in design is not when nothing more can be added but when nothing more can be taken way and do what you need. It was a different time and we did not expect our phone to flush the toilet. They were all wired to the wall then, too.
I am all for change as long as everything stays the same while it is happening! ???
I do like the idea of a multiplexed "breakout box" that would probably be less than simple to build and code for. You know more uses for I/O will be dreamt up and flexibility and extensibility are great attributes for any system. Despite what that crusty old engineer told me!
Finite resources probably limit what can be reliably accomplished with current hardware, tho.
Just from the peanut gallery.
Mister P-Nut
Quote from: boB on October 12, 2013, 07:31:49 PM
Quote from: mahendra on October 12, 2013, 07:28:37 PM
midnite why not design a small niffty componet like the whizbang to give more aux output/input so those who would like to add more output/input to their classic can do so.Just a suggestion .i am not an expert of any kind.
DGD, Aux 2 was designed to be input/output/analog/digital but no multiplexing it I'm afraid to be 2 terminals
instead of one. But wait !.... Nahhh... nevermind.
boB
So each AUX is two pins marked + and - on the Classic BUT are the - pins just connected to the battery - ? Or is each pin a separate IO pin that gets to the cpu bus? perhaps via some cmos level logic/level changing gates etc to get that 12V logic on state wth decent current carrying capability? If the AUX negatives are just battery negative then why bother with them as all (most)devices would have a common negative to the battery anyway.
Now if they are separate IO logic pins just paired up with the pins marked +ve to simulate analogue signalling over then the possibilities of having 4 AUX controls with software PWMing etc starts to look interesting.
Without having seen a WBjr my impression is that you may be using a fairly common AtoD device with SLI output with single wire connection to an AUX2 pin. Maybe with power on the same wire or is there a separate + power connection to the WBjr?
The more I think about this then the disital IO pins seems most likely since the MNGP/local app can change AUX logic states...
Now wouldn't that be nice :P AUX2 + input to WBjr and AUX2 - as output to Clipper :)
dgd
I have 3 shunts that I would like to read..
I also have 7 classic controllers, so I have plenty of aux connectors.
Will the classics add up the readings from the 3 shunts?
thanks
Quote from: pechan on October 13, 2013, 01:19:43 AM
I have 3 shunts that I would like to read..
I also have 7 classic controllers, so I have plenty of aux connectors.
Will the classics add up the readings from the 3 shunts?
thanks
It won't add them up quite yet. That should be a future software addition though.
In fact, I was thinking about this just today !
Sorry though... I don't have a time frame for this yet. There are lots of possibilities !
boB
Any way to know which dealers have these in stock yet ? Or when they will ?
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on October 14, 2013, 12:54:39 PM
Any way to know which dealers have these in stock yet ? Or when they will ?
I don't think that any dealers have them in stock, yet.
I will try to find out if any stocking distributors or dealers have ordered
any yet and/or if we have shipped any out to those types.
boB
yep they don't i have checked a lot ,only place i have seen them is Australia.Funny its produced in the US and an Australian store already ordered them from Midnite.I should also mention they are very few places that stock some key Midnite accessories e.g Midnite solid state relays.That s a real bummer i say.
OK for those who want the Whizbang jr its available form ECOdirect.com.As i mention very few stores carry some key midnite Products but luckily ecodirect is not one of them
Quote from: mahendra on October 14, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
OK for those who want the Whizbang jr its available form ECOdirect.com.As i mention very few stores carry some key midnite Products but luckily ecodirect is not one of them
I called the eco direct - they have them listed on their website but she didn't know if they actually had any yet but was going to get back to me . I bet lots of people are itching to get their hands on one and get it hooked up.
I added a Tinyurl for the latest and greatest beta code. For the moment, it is this...
http://tinyurl.com/l5ua8ga
boB
I find its not easy to get 50mV current shunts in AU, most here are 75mV, can the wizbang support 75mV shunt voltage ??
Quote from: phonetic on October 15, 2013, 07:13:49 AM
I find its not easy to get 50mV current shunts in AU, most here are 75mV, can the wizbang support 75mV shunt voltage ??
Yes, I believe so. There is a modbus register that ~should~ allow it to be adjusted to have lower
post processing gain. The modbus document has not been updated yet but here is the modbus
register/address...
Register 4363 or Address 4362 is a number that is normally sitting at zero called WbJrNumeratorSS
This is a 16 bit signed number +- 32,767 that will raise the effective gain if you bring it up to
a maximum of 32,767 or reduce the gain if you make it negative, 32,769 up to 65,535.
I can't remember off hand how much the gain will vary. It was mainly meant as a ~tweak" adjustment
but I ~think~ it may just make that 50 mV work at 75 mV without having to command a gain
change of the shunt amplifier from 8 down to 4 which would be 1/2 and by itself not very
useful to you.
I will calculate the adjustment range of that tweak number and post it.
boB
Bob, many thanks, as always..your a legend.
Quote from: phonetic on October 15, 2013, 07:13:49 AM
I find its not easy to get 50mV current shunts in AU, most here are 75mV, can the wizbang support 75mV shunt voltage ??
FYI, Jaycar carry a good range or 50mv shunts ranging from 1A to 200A, they don't seem to have 75mv shunts anymore.
If you want real 50mv Deltec types up to 500A then Ebay.au always seems to have them available and often from oz suppliers too.
Also if you don't mind paying too much then Element14 for Datel 50mv types, or RS also carry many 50mv shunts.
dgd
boB or others - Any plans to publish the specs on this? Resolution, accuracy, temp coefficient, etc... ?
Just wondering since I am building my own "back box" to more accurately measure shunt current and also AC current in my ePanel. I'm just not satisfied with the FlexNet DC's resolution or accuracy.
Regardless, I'm sure I will end up buying one of these anyways since I am a monitoring junkie and will want to be able to control charging with this info.
I guess I could just wait and see what ADC and voltage reference you're using.. I'm just impatient and curious.... It's nice of you to use a nice clear plastic case but the pictures aren't quite high enough resolution to make out the components..
The worst case accuracy I measured seemed to be around +- 0.4 percent but was only a comparison of using a Fluke meter across the same shunt the WB Jr. was connected to. (voltage across the sense screws) I have not pulled out the Yokagawa yet.
The resolution is 0.1 amps and is very good. The Deltec shunts are spec'd at +- 0.25 percent.
I wish I had a golden standard for current to check against but we have some decent equipment here.
Haven't come up with a general specification.
The A/D is self calibrating for offset in between each measurement.
I am pretty sure that you are not going to find a DC current measurement better than this.
Shunts other than the Deltec as far as sense screw spacing will require some kind of
adapter which I hope we can make.
More hard specifications as we have time.
boB
Thanks for all the bits boB!
Quote from: boB on October 16, 2013, 03:01:49 PM
Shunts other than the Deltec as far as sense screw spacing will require some kind of
adapter which I hope we can make.
Next board revision, how about one hole and one slot?
Quote from: RossW on October 16, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Quote from: boB on October 16, 2013, 03:01:49 PM
Shunts other than the Deltec as far as sense screw spacing will require some kind of
adapter which I hope we can make.
Next board revision, how about one hole and one slot?
Yeah, maybe but I wouldn't hold my breath. There just isn't any room.
I also wouldn't hold my breathe on the bracket. You will have to wire something up
for now to make non-standard shunts work.
So, we just tested an off the shelf Delta shunt along with one of our Yokogawa power meters and
the current matches within +- 0.1 amps ! Mostly it is right on but that's about as far off
as we can see it going. The resolution of the A/D converter is actually 0.078125 amps so
software has to scale and round, etc.
This is REAL good !
boB
Quote from: boB on October 16, 2013, 03:01:49 PM
So, we just tested an off the shelf Delta shunt along with one of our Yokogawa power meters and
the current matches within +- 0.1 amps ! Mostly it is right on but that's about as far off
as we can see it going. The resolution of the A/D converter is actually 0.078125 amps so
software has to scale and round, etc.
This is REAL good !
boB
Yes, that sounds great boB! So 16 bit ADC and a 5.12 V reference?
Quote from: mtdoc on October 17, 2013, 12:47:27 AM
Yes, that sounds great boB! So 16 bit ADC and a 5.12 V reference?
It certainly appears to calculate out to that, doesn't it ? But no, it's 2V.
This thing should be good for plus and minus 2,500 amps with the 500A/50mV scaling.
High enough for large surges.
Quote from: Resthome on October 08, 2013, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: Tons001 on October 06, 2013, 08:03:56 PM
Has anyone found a retailer that knows when they will have them in stock?
Well there appears to be some miss information going on with the retailers and Midnite. I sent a note to NAWS and this is their reply. :o <<< ...
Noticed last night that at least Wind-Sun had a listing for the MNWBjr:
http://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-whiz-bang-jr-current-sense-module.html
There is NO stock and NO Due Date, but, at least some progress. FWIW. Christmas in November?? Vic
Quote from: boB on October 17, 2013, 01:31:38 AM
Quote from: mtdoc on October 17, 2013, 12:47:27 AM
Yes, that sounds great boB! So 16 bit ADC and a 5.12 V reference?
It certainly appears to calculate out to that, doesn't it ? But no, it's 2V.
This thing should be good for plus and minus 2,500 amps with the 500A/50mV scaling.
High enough for large surges.
+/- 2500 amps!!!!! Yeah I'd say that oughta cover it........ :o
And let's see at 96 max amps per Classic - that comes out to 26 Classics - I only have 23 to go before I'll outgrow it.... ::)
Crap ... I paid $59 elsewhere. I should have waited two more days and paid $44 here.
Quote from: Tons001 on October 17, 2013, 12:21:32 PM
Crap ... I paid $59 elsewhere. I should have waited two more days and paid $44 here.
Either way it's a pretty good deal.
Up here, I would call $59 - $44 == to about 10 Dick's cheeseburgers !
That's one good way to put a value on things for me.
boB
It is phenomenal deal.
Quote from: Vic on October 17, 2013, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: Resthome on October 08, 2013, 03:23:38 PM
Quote from: Tons001 on October 06, 2013, 08:03:56 PM
Has anyone found a retailer that knows when they will have them in stock?
Well there appears to be some miss information going on with the retailers and Midnite. I sent a note to NAWS and this is their reply. :o <<< ...
Noticed last night that at least Wind-Sun had a listing for the MNWBjr:
http://www.solar-electric.com/midnite-solar-whiz-bang-jr-current-sense-module.html
There is NO stock and NO Due Date, but, at least some progress. FWIW. Christmas in November?? Vic
Strange NAWS shipped mine today. Just got the UPS notification.
It IS a phenomenal deal!. And, it will get better and better, just like the Classic. Vic
Hi Rest ...
Well, you were wise to order yours before I ordered mine ... a guess. OR, perhaps they came in today, or perhaps they sold out this AM ... or and so on.
Happy that yours is on the way. My order was placed on the phone, FWIW. Enjoy! Vic
Quote from: Vic on October 17, 2013, 05:48:40 PM
Hi Rest ...
Well, you were wise to order yours before I ordered mine ... a guess. OR, perhaps they came in today, or perhaps they sold out this AM ... or and so on.
Happy that yours is on the way. My order was placed on the phone, FWIW. Enjoy! Vic
Vic
Order mine on the web site last night and got the confirmation and invoice this AM and UPS shipping notice this PM. Due to arrive on Monday so we will see what is in the box. Suspect yours will be shipping soon since Midnite is shipping 10 per box to distributors/retailers. Have a great day!
I just ordered mine online so we'll see if they're out of stock already..... 8)
Quote from: mtdoc on October 17, 2013, 06:59:17 PM
I just ordered mine online so we'll see if they're out of stock already..... 8)
Just received another UPS notice saying it was from Midnite Solar, so maybe Midnite is drop shipping them for NAWS. If so thanks Midnite. I did have a second item in my order so maybe the first UPS notice from NAWS was for that item. Both scheduled for Monday delivery so will see. :)
Quote from: Resthome on October 18, 2013, 12:23:54 AM
Quote from: mtdoc on October 17, 2013, 06:59:17 PM
I just ordered mine online so we'll see if they're out of stock already..... 8)
Just received another UPS notice saying it was from Midnite Solar, so maybe Midnite is drop shipping them for NAWS. If so thanks Midnite. I did have a second item in my order so maybe the first UPS notice from NAWS was for that item. Both scheduled for Monday delivery so will see. :)
I know that some went out today or yesterday so one of those was probably yours.
boB
Just ordered a Whizbang Jr from NAWS ! Also ordered some Midnite breakers and surge protector.
UPDATE:
My WhizBang Jrs were drop-shipped from MidNite yesterday evening, and due here on Monday.
THANKS MidNite!
Okay, I decide to read over the current set of instruction for the WhizBang Jr. I'm not sure I understand why it is still necessary to set an “End Amp†setting.
“The proper value for Ending Amps will need to be known for this to work properly. If the Ending Amps current is set too low, then the Classic will simply just end using the timer instead and nothing bad happens.â€
My understand with the WhizBang Jr installed and the Advance Charge setting to “SHUNT†the Classic would be using the external shut at the battery for its measurements. However the above statement indicates that an “End Amp†value must be entered. It seems to me if I am there and the load is varying this is going to be one number and if I am gone and all loads are non existent or minimal it will be a different number. Although I suppose it's possible to get a number that would work for both it would seem to depend on how large the loads are when the charging changes from Absorb to Float. I was really hoping that the software in the Classic would know when to go into float based on the AH removed from the batteries and how many AH were returned plus some charging efficiency factor. Maybe we are not there yet with this latest beta firmware or I don't understand how the WhizBang Jr is resolving the End Amps issue if we have to know what value to enter.
boB or anyone else care to enlighten me.
Quote from: Resthome on October 19, 2013, 07:31:50 PM
Okay, I decide to read over the current set of instruction for the WhizBang Jr. I'm not sure I understand why it is still necessary to set an “End Amp†setting.
“The proper value for Ending Amps will need to be known for this to work properly. If the Ending Amps current is set too low, then the Classic will simply just end using the timer instead and nothing bad happens.â€
My understand with the WhizBang Jr installed and the Advance Charge setting to “SHUNT†the Classic would be using the external shut at the battery for its measurements. However the above statement indicates that an “End Amp†value must be entered. It seems to me if I am there and the load is varying this is going to be one number and if I am gone and all loads are non existent or minimal it will be a different number. Although I suppose it's possible to get a number that would work for both it would seem to depend on how large the loads are when the charging changes from Absorb to Float. I was really hoping that the software in the Classic would know when to go into float based on the AH removed from the batteries and how many AH were returned plus some charging efficiency factor. Maybe we are not there yet with this latest beta firmware or I don't understand how the WhizBang Jr is resolving the End Amps issue if we have to know what value to enter.
boB or anyone else care to enlighten me.
RH, realize that there is not "State Of Charge" (SOC) software in the Classic yet.
Until (and if) we can learn the capacity of the battery bank, you would also have to
enter the amp-hours of the bank. Next version should have that entry field. The Amp-Hours
will of course change while the battery ages. In fact, a new batteries' capacity may go up
before it starts going down.
Also, even if there were SOC calculations in the Classic (eventually will be), you will still need to know
an Ending Amps value. Of course, we may eventually have some software to help figure out what
this Ending Amps should be but for the moment, we don't. E.A. is ~typically~ some percentage of
the capacity (Amp-Hours) of your battery bank. Somewhere around 1% to 5% or thereabouts.
Actually you don't have to even use the Ending-Amps setting. Just leave it at zero and let the
Absorb timer take care of it if you want. In fact, you probably want to do just that and watch
the current into the battery with the WB Jr. while the voltage is sitting at absorb and see what
it drops down to. I would let it go a bit longer than your typical absorb time (1 to 2 hours)
and really watch the current during absorb to see if it drops to some lower plateau. Then,
you can set the Ending Amps to something just higher than this lower current value.
Until there is more software in the Classic, this is about all that can be done. It will also
be good to get an idea of your Amp-Hour efficiency by seeing how many positive
amp-hours have to be put in, assuming that the NET amp-hours got reset as soon
as the Classic went from Absorb to Float (i.e. battery full)
Please let me know if I didn't quite understand your question though and I'll try to elaborate.
This is definitely fun stuff !
boB
Thanks boB, pretty much what I had concluded. I'll try to compare what I see on the Classic with the WhizBang Jr verses my Link 10 battery monitoring system (wish it had data logging) but I pretty much know what time of day the batteries should be going into float as the load is much more consistent this time of year, although the days are getting a little shorter it still should be in Float by 1pm. Also have a lot of local app data I can start to look at in more detail. I guess I should look at dumping some of that data from the Classic to see what it has been doing when I am not there and there are minimum loads of essentially the Classic.
Are the same data values that are available in the local app available to be dumped from the Classic? Or are we only able to get the Offline data? Are there any white papers around on just how one may dump the Classic data? I know there are a few folks on here that have appeared to have mastered it.
Guess we can all hope for that WhizBang Sr you have been hiding. :-X
Thanks again for your reply. :)
Quote from: Resthome on October 20, 2013, 12:39:39 AM
Thanks boB, pretty much what I had concluded. I'll try to compare what I see on the Classic with the WhizBang Jr verses my Link 10 battery monitoring system (wish it had data logging) but I pretty much know what time of day the batteries should be going into float as the load is much more consistent this time of year, although the days are getting a little shorter it still should be in Float by 1pm. Also have a lot of local app data I can start to look at in more detail. I guess I should look at dumping some of that data from the Classic to see what it has been doing when I am not there and there are minimum loads of essentially the Classic.
Are the same data values that are available in the local app available to be dumped from the Classic? Or are we only able to get the Offline data? Are there any white papers around on just how one may dump the Classic data? I know there are a few folks on here that have appeared to have mastered it.
Guess we can all hope for that WhizBang Sr you have been hiding. :-X
Thanks again for your reply. :)
Luckily, with the WB Jr. you don't need to care what the loads are when transitioning from Absorb to float.
Yeah, need some of that link 10 stuff in the Classic too.
To dump Classic data, the modbus document pretty much says how to do it. The newest Local App evidently
shows the WB Jr. basic numbers.
Now the Classic also needs to data log the WB Jr. current and amp-hours. That's one of the next things
for that to do.
Going to sleep now, I mean, Resting and a good reset.
boB
boB;
What Classic registers hold the WB jr data?
Thanks.
Tom
Is there a newer Local App than 03.29 that shows the WhizBang Jr data available?
Local App 0.3.31 has shunt amps but I don't see any Amp-Hours on it.
Here is a quick list of register addresses and register numbers...
Values will not update unless the CRC matches that coming from the Wb Jr.
Address (Register)
4360 (4361) WbangJrCmdS Whizbang Jr. command. Default 0x35 gain = 8
4361 (4361) WbJrrRawCurrent Whizbang Jr. current signed. +-3,276.7 amps
4362 (4362) WbJrGainTweak WbJr. Signed 16 bit gain tweak adjustment. Default = 0
4364, 4365 (4365, 4366) WbJr. unsigned 32 bits Amp-Hours Positive Only Low,High
4366, 4367 (4367, 4368) WbJr. signed 32 bits Amp-Hours Negative Only Low,High
4368, 4369 (4369, 4370) WbJr. signed 32 bits Amp-Hours Positive AND Negative Low,High
4370 (4371) WzBangJrCurrent32Signed WbJr. signed 16 bits current +-3,276.7 amps
4371 (4372) WizBangJrRawCrcAndtemp WbJr. (CRC << 8) | (Temperature + 50 degrees C)
CRC from Wb Jr. in high byte OR'd with temperature on WbJr. -50 deg. C = 0 in temp. field.
BTW, that happy face is supposed to show up as "shift left 8" bits.
Thanks, boB.
Quote from: boB on October 21, 2013, 01:45:25 AM
Local App 0.3.31 has shunt amps but I don't see any Amp-Hours on it.
Thanks boB that version doesn't appear to be available anywhere.
Quote from: Resthome on October 21, 2013, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: boB on October 21, 2013, 01:45:25 AM
Local App 0.3.31 has shunt amps but I don't see any Amp-Hours on it.
Thanks boB that version doesn't appear to be available anywhere.
yes, I'm not sure what the status is or why that one isn't distributed yet. There may be
some other problem and that may be why it isn't out there yet ?
Did anybody receive their WB Juniors today ? It is Monday after all.
boB
Hi boB,
While I could not wait for the WBJrs to be delivered to the in-town location, UPS Tracking says:
"Delivered On:
Monday, 10/21/2013 at 3:02 P.M"
So, they are there. Thanks for getting the product done quickly. This will be a great help for many of us. And, you folks will make these units better and better by adding useful functions in the Firmware. The frosting is its low price.
Thanks MidNite team. Cannot wait to get Follow Me and the WBs all connected and the Firmware updated ...'twill be fun. Thanks, 73 boB, Vic
Quote from: boB on October 21, 2013, 01:45:25 AM
Did anybody receive their WB Juniors today ? It is Monday after all.
boB
Delivered as promised. Thanks again Midnite for the drop ship. It is that kind of service to your customers that make you stand out.
Heading to the boat tomorrow afternoon. Hope to be up and running with the WhizBang Jr. by Wednesday. Unfortunately with the low water situation I will not have WiFi access. So status up will have to wait until we return next Monday.
Quote from: boB on October 21, 2013, 01:45:25 AM
Local App 0.3.31 has shunt amps but I don't see any Amp-Hours on it.
Here is a quick list of register addresses and register numbers...
Values will not update unless the CRC matches that coming from the Wb Jr.
Address (Register)
4360 (4361) WbangJrCmdS Whizbang Jr. command. Default 0x35 gain = 8
4361 (4361) WbJrrRawCurrent Whizbang Jr. current signed. +-3,276.7 amps
4362 (4362) WbJrGainTweak WbJr. Signed 16 bit gain tweak adjustment. Default = 0
4364, 4365 (4365, 4366) WbJr. unsigned 32 bits Amp-Hours Positive Low,High
4366, 4367 (4367, 4368) WbJr. signed 32 bits Amp-Hours Negative Low,High
4368, 4369 (4369, 4370) WbJr. signed 32 bits Amp-Hours Negative Low,High
4370 (4371) WzBangJrCurrent32Signed WbJr. signed 16 bits current +-3,276.7 amps
4371 (4372) WizBangJrRawCrcAndtemp WbJr. (CRC << 8) | (Temperature + 50 degrees C)
CRC from Wb Jr. in high byte OR'd with temperature on WbJr. -50 deg. C = 0 in temp. field.
BTW, that happy face is supposed to show up as "shift left 8" bits.
Where do you download 3.31 of the local app from? I completely removed it from computer per the instructions and downloaded from the website again but it is still 3.29. I have yet to update the Classic to the beta since my WBJ has yet to arrive but figured I could update local app in the meantime. Maybe the two are tied together somehow?
Quote from: Tons001 on October 22, 2013, 08:26:22 AM
Where do you download 3.31 of the local app from? I completely removed it from computer per the instructions and downloaded from the website again but it is still 3.29. I have yet to update the Classic to the beta since my WBJ has yet to arrive but figured I could update local app in the meantime. Maybe the two are tied together somehow?
I will try to find out what is going on. Maybe I have been fooled myself !
Also, I see two registers for negative in that list. I better make sure I document which one is which correctly
OK, 3.31 is not released quite yet. And I modified a bit of explanation in the modbus register posting to
elaborate on the positive only, negative only and positive and negative amp-hours registers.
Does it matter which side the battery is attached to?
Quote from: zoneblue on October 25, 2013, 01:51:16 AM
Does it matter which side the battery is attached to?
I think that the release note says that the purple wire points towards the battery negative.
I'd re-read that part though cuz I don't have it in front of me.
If it gets backwards, there is a way, in software, to turn the polarity around but that
selection is not in a menu at the moment.
boB
boB;
Yep, violet wire to the battery negative side of the shunt.
It only fits one way on a shunt in an E-panel due to the bus bar attached to the shunt.
Tom
So I ordered mine from NAWs on 10-17 and still hadn't heard anything about it shipping. Called them today and they said it's scheduled to arrive at NAWs on 10-28 - after which they would ship it to me.
Now I'm in WA state and about 100 miles as the crow flies from Midnite - so my WB jr. is definitely taking the long way here - to Arizona and back.... Sure would have made more sense for it to be dropped shipped as some were..
Not really complaining since I'm in no hurry - just wondering why the inefficiency? Keeps the shipping companies in business I guess.. ::)
Quote from: mtdoc on October 25, 2013, 04:54:42 PM
So I ordered mine from NAWs on 10-17 and still hadn't heard anything about it shipping. Called them today and they said it's scheduled to arrive at NAWs on 10-28 - after which they would ship it to me.
Now I'm in WA state and about 100 miles as the crow flies from Midnite - so my WB jr. is definitely taking the long way here - to Arizona and back.... Sure would have made more sense for it to be dropped shipped as some were..
Not really complaining since I'm in no hurry - just wondering why the inefficiency? Keeps the shipping companies in business I guess.. ::)
We sell some of our CBI circuit breakers to South Africa from here..
Guess where they are made ? South Africa !
At least these things are small and very light.
Sometimes things just don't make sense.
I've lived in the pacific northwest all my life and we used to get electronics
parts from warehouses from around here. Even with all of the electronics
manufacturers still here there are not warehouses here anymore.
boB
yeah that's not new to me either ,hard wood and alumina is produced in Guyana but its a similar story for it to reach the retail market,you shouldn't worry about it too must just stresses you out.
Yeah, I get it. Not an uncommon thing in the global economy..
But - since some WB Jr's were drop shipped - it didn't make sense to me why mine wasn't as well. The guy at NAWs thought it was odd as well.
Oh well - patience, patience, sigh...
Hi Doc,
Since I know nothing about MN manufacturing, I had wondered if perhaps MN ran out of the first production run, perhaps the next run is larger, and Wind-Sun will get a fairly large supply. And therefore, Drop-shipping would really be less efficient, as many folks will buy something in addition to the WBjr ... Guessing done for now. Good Luck getting yours soon. Vic
You are probably right Vic.
Maybe next time Midnite releases a new product I'm inpatient to get my hands on, I'll drive over to Arlington and knock on their door with cash (and maybe some beer) in hand... ;D
Since the post above, had also thought that perhaps Wind-Sun was dipping their toe in the water. Winter is approaching, and perhaps resellers do not want to load up on inventory unless there is a demonstrated demand for a product ... dunno.
I will not be able to use the WBjr for a bit more than a week, as the old house in town is completely scaffolded for a new roof, gutters and some painting ... trying to beat the rains which have been patiently waiting for us to start painting!
Have Fun, Vic
Quote from: Vic on October 25, 2013, 07:51:39 PM
Since the post above, had also thought that perhaps W-S was dipping their toe in the water. Winter is approaching, and perhaps resellers do not want to load up on inventory unless there is a demonstrated demand for a product ... dunno.
Maybe so but NAWs definitely did not earn any customer service brownie points on this one. After 5 days of no word on pending shipment I emailed their customer support and heard nothing. After 3 more days I called and they were friendly for sure but gave no good explanation for the continued delay other than "we are waiting to get some from Midnite".
It was not listed as backorderd or out of stock when I ordered it. If drop shipping for me was not an option they at least should have sent me an email...
No biggie really - I'm not worked up about it and have been happy with NAWs orders in the past - they just dropped the ball a bit on this one is all...
Yeah - I called NAWS the other day also to inquire about my order since they had charged my credit card. They also told me the Whizbangs Juniors are due in on Monday. They have been holding off shipping the other things I had ordered which were all in stock. I told them I could wait until Monday since he said they had a tracking number which said Whizzers would be in then.
My CC was charged on 10-18. :-[
Just sayin.....
Quote from: mtdoc on October 26, 2013, 03:27:50 AM
My CC was charged on 10-18. :-[
Just sayin.....
I cut them some slack since they usually have good prices, sponsor a great solar forum, and have a very informative store webpage. But they do fall a bit short on the fullfillment end of things from time to time. Everything always comes eventually !
mtdoc,
Yep, looks like you ordered your Jrs before me. I called and spoke with Dave, who seemed to know that the Jrs would be drop-shipped directly from MN.
Generally, Wind - Sun does a very good job, sometimes things do get hung up. Next order with them, will probably be my turn for a hang up. Have Fun, Vic
i am waiting till supply becomes steady and more importantly until i have $
So just to to confirm my thinking. I am just about to install my 2nd classic . So I will have two classics charging the one battery bank using follow me mode. So do I only need one WBJR connected to the master classic. The slave classic will follow the master. The WBJR will send readings for battery load/charge amps to the master classic.
Is there any features lost in this kind of arrangement. In that the slave classic doesn't have a WBJR or any advantage in having a WBJR on both or is that even possible or necessary.
Kurt
Quote from: offgridQLD on October 28, 2013, 06:28:25 PM
So just to to confirm my thinking. I am just about to install my 2nd classic . So I will have two classics charging the one battery bank using follow me mode. So do I only need one WBJR connected to the master classic. The slave classic will follow the master. The WBJR will send readings for battery load/charge amps to the master classic.
Is there any features lost in this kind of arrangement. In that the slave classic doesn't have a WBJR or any advantage in having a WBJR on both or is that even possible or necessary.
Kurt
I have 2X Classics and inverters. I only use one WBjr. Just run all the negatives through one shunt and mount the WBjr on that shunt. You can use 2 of them, too somehow but my 2nd Classic needs AUX2 for Clipper control on my turbine so I had to do the one shunt for all loads method.
Good luck with it.
Tom
I am still trying to figure out what the WB jr. will actually do. It is simply to help gauge when the ending amps for my battery bank has been made so the classic will transition to float? Will it have any control on the classic's transition from bulk to absorb based on amps needing to be replaced?
Hi Tons..
Right now, the WBjr will command the Classic to transition from Absorb to Float, as you mentioned, based on the actual battery charge current.
The Classic causes the transition from Bulk to Absorb, based upon the Absorption voltage setting in the Classic. The CC needs no other information, other than that from the Batt Temp Sensor to do this task.
Here is a link to the WBjr manual;
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Whizbang_manual.pdf
The WB also tabulates AH, at this point, and several things like Amps to/from the battery, IIRC.
The hardware will allow additional functions to be added later with FirmWare updates. It is possible that it could become part of a full Battery Monitor in the future ... time will tell just how. Vic
I only have the one inverter and nothing using any of the inputs on any of the two classics.
So with the above in mind is there any advantage in getting a WBJR for each classic?
Edit: Here is my thinking with two classics in Master/slave - follow me arangment. The master clasic having the WBJR connected. Lets say I have end amps set to 20A on the master classic. So I am in absorb mode and the master classics charging at 25A and the WBJR tells the master classic there is a 5A battery load so the master classic takes this into account triggers end amps based on 20A trigger point. Ok great the WBJR had done its job informing the master classic of the 5A load.
So the question is and this might be more of a (follow me) question though it has implications to WBJR.....
Say the master classic knows its putting in 25A charge and it knows there is the 5A load but how dose it know how many amps the slave classic is pumping out. Say (new numbers for this example) both master and slave classic are charging at 15A each for a total of 30A now that's above the 20A setting for end amp trigger point but dose the master classic only see its own 15A and think great that's below 20A and trigger end amps when in fact the battery was still calling for 30A to hold absorb voltage.
Regarding the usefulness of the WBJR, from my point of view it's biggest advantage now is that the classic knows what your loads are when switching to float - end amps. So once installed I can stop arguing with my wife, telling her to stop rinsing dishes for 2 min and running the 600w pressure pump and give the classic a chance to trigger float- end amps ;D
Kurt
Thanks Vic. As always ... everyone on here is a wealth of information.
I was just curious because based on the Trimetric 2025a, I am always left with a deficit cumulative AH for the day even if I make it to float on the Classic via ending amps. When I hit float the last couple times, I reset the Trimetric total AH to zero but I still end up with a shortage everyday that gets further away from positive daily. I have the Trimetric as dialed in as a can. The only remaining parameter that I have not changed is the default 94% efficiency. I raised my absorb voltage to 14.4 which is the highest recommended by Concorde. I tried vmax with the minimum set to 2 hours and the max set to 5 but for some reason the Classic still transitions to float after 2 hours even though EA has not been met. It completely ignored the 5 hours max.
I was just kind of hoping the WB jr would help solve my issue. I know battery monitors are not accurate ... a fact I reminded of numerous times when reading peoples responses but I can't wrap my head around why I always end up short. The classic rarely asks for more than 60% of the arrays potential.
Just in case anyone is curious. P1=14.2 P2=3 (which should actually be 1.5 based on info I could find) P3=300. I have calculated so that the voltage matches between the Trimetric and the Classic.
My batteries seem to hold a charge well but the voltage rises quickly enough that I transition from bulk to absorb to soon in my opinion. Could my batteries be the issue? FYI ... agms so SOG is not an option.
Thanks ... Marc
Quote from: offgridQLD on October 28, 2013, 07:10:09 PM
I only have the one inverter and nothing using any of the inputs on any of the two classics.
So with the above in mind is there any advantage in getting a WBJR for each classic?
Regarding the usefulness of the WBJR, from my point of view it's biggest advantage now is that the classic knows what your loads are when switching to float - end amps. So once installed I can stop arguing with my wife, telling her to stop rinsing dishes for 2 min and running the 600w pressure pump and give the classic a chance to trigger float- end amps ;D
Kurt
If you install the WB Jr on a shunt connected to your battery negative it will go to Float based on the current at that external shunt that knows what the Net Amps (Net Amps=Amps from Classic - Loads) are into the batteries. You will still have to determine what the End Amps should be set at for you installation. The current measurement with the WB Jr appear to be very accurate in my installation. The current beta firmware does not know the AHr rating of your batteries
Ok,
Thanks kind of obvious now that I look at it all again. So when using the WBJR the classics internal shunt reading for charge output amps are ignored and only the WBJR shunt reading are used and both classics will be covered as they are going through the one shunt.
Also if I purchase a 500A deltec shunt is there any reason why I cant have the WBJR mounted to it and then a second set of sensing wires to the same shunt because my Selectronics inverter also has a two pin shunt input for monitoring a external shunt and has some great logging software that came with it . So two monitoring devises reading the one shunt.
Kurt
Quote from: offgridQLD on October 28, 2013, 07:58:56 PM
Ok,
Thanks kind of abiuse now that I look at it all again. So when using the WBJR the classics internal shunt reading for charge output amps are ignored and only the WBJR shunt reading are used and both classics will be covered as they are going through the one shunt.
Also if I purchase a 500A deltec shunt is there any reason why I cant have the WBJR mounted to it and then a second set of sensing wires to the same shunt because my Selectronics inverter also has a two pin shunt input for monitoring a external shunt . So two monitoring devises reading the one shunt.
Kurt
Kurt, you can attach the second set of sense wires with no problems. The spacers and longer set of screws are provided in the box. I have my Link 10 sense wires attached to my WB Jr. on the Deltec shunt. And both the Classic and the Link 10 show exactly the same Net Amps. As long as your inverter wants to see the shunt in the main battery negative there should be no problems.
Quote from: offgridQLD on October 28, 2013, 07:58:56 PM
So two monitoring devises reading the one shunt.
Kurt
Kurt
With mine they even included a couple of extra standoff ferrules along with the longer screws to allow you to add these secondary sense wires neatly to the WB Jr shunt.
So, I guess the answer is "yes".
Tom
Quote from: offgridQLD on October 28, 2013, 07:10:09 PM
So the question is and this might be more of a (follow me) question though it has implications to WBJR.....
Say the master classic knows its putting in 25A charge and it knows there is the 5A load but how dose it know how many amps the slave classic is pumping out. Say (new numbers for this example) both master and slave classic are charging at 15A each for a total of 30A now that's above the 20A setting for end amp trigger point but dose the master classic only see its own 15A and think great that's below 20A and trigger end amps when in fact the battery was still calling for 30A to hold absorb voltage.
The one Classic that has the WB Jr. connected is the only one that needs to have Ending Amps set.
The new software has a selection to chooses either the Classic's internal shunt OR the external WB Jr.
shunt for its Ending Amps sensor.
So, with Follow-Me being used for the two Classics, and their Absorb time set for a fairly long time,
the Whizbang Junior should be able to tell that one Classic to go to Float and the other (slave) Classic
will follow it to Float also.
That is the way it is supposed to work.
Soon, the information over the Follow-Me cables will include the current from the one WB Jr. so
even the Classic without the WB Jr. will also know that main battery current... But
it should also not be necessary if the slave follows the master into Float. I suppose that a gotchya that
could happen might be that the master Classic (the Classic with the WB Jr. connected) could be seeing
too low of a battery voltage and not know that the "system" is really in Absorb if the slave Classic
is the one seeing the Absorb voltage.
Transferring the WB Jr. over the Follow-Me connection will fix that last possible problem but for now,
just make sure that both Classics are reading close as possible near the Absorb voltage. Use the Tweaks
adjustment for that if necessary.
boB
Great thanks for all that. Just ordered my 500A shunt and WBJR :)
If anyone in Au is looking for one. DC solutions in Australia has stock ready as of yesterday. Apparently there were some small changes that needed to be made to the PCB? It's all resolved now and good to go.
Kurt.
Quote from: Tons001 on October 28, 2013, 07:16:32 PM
Thanks Vic. As always ... everyone on here is a wealth of information.
I was just curious because based on the Trimetric 2025a, I am always left with a deficit cumulative AH for the day even if I make it to float on the Classic via ending amps. When I hit float the last couple times, I reset the Trimetric total AH to zero but I still end up with a shortage everyday that gets further away from positive daily. I have the Trimetric as dialed in as a can. The only remaining parameter that I have not changed is the default 94% efficiency. I raised my absorb voltage to 14.4 which is the highest recommended by Concorde. I tried vmax with the minimum set to 2 hours and the max set to 5 but for some reason the Classic still transitions to float after 2 hours even though EA has not been met. It completely ignored the 5 hours max.
I was just kind of hoping the WB jr would help solve my issue. I know battery monitors are not accurate ... a fact I reminded of numerous times when reading peoples responses but I can't wrap my head around why I always end up short. The classic rarely asks for more than 60% of the arrays potential.
Just in case anyone is curious. P1=14.2 P2=3 (which should actually be 1.5 based on info I could find) P3=300. I have calculated so that the voltage matches between the Trimetric and the Classic.
My batteries seem to hold a charge well but the voltage rises quickly enough that I transition from bulk to absorb to soon in my opinion. Could my batteries be the issue? FYI ... agms so SOG is not an option.
Thanks ... Marc
Marc, I would think that you should NOT be left with a deficit in Amp-Hours from one battery Full to another Full...
That doesn't quite make sense at 94% efficiency which sounds close enough.
Sounds like you have older firmware in your Classic if you are still using Minimum Absorb time.
That is the reason that your Absorb time is only 2 hours... As you said a bit later in your posting, your battery
voltage gets to Absorb fairly quickly. This is probably OK. It may be that you are not using much of your battery
capacity ? In fact, how much is your discharge Amp-Hours ?
With the older system using Minimum and Maximum Absorb Time (and not the newer VariMax or VMX), if the transition
from Bulk to Absorb is quick, then the timer will not count up from your 2 hour setting towards the 5 hour maximum.
It will then just count down to 0 minutes from that 2 hours and then go to Float.
The intention of this Min-Max Absorb time and the newer VariMax version of that is for when your batteries
were not discharged very much and does not need to do the full maximum Absorb time to decrease wear
and tear on your batteries from all the Absorb charging.
My suggestion, if your battery bank is of any substantial size, is to increase the Absorb time some, like, to 3 Hours or so
and see if you get a positive amp-hours on your Trimetric after that 3 hours. Also, you have increased your Absorb
voltage set point which can also help to increase your amp-hours but as you say, you are getting close to the maximum
voltage specs of those batteries. That is wise not to go too high but you are probably OK.
Another possible reason you may be getting to Absorb quickly is because you have a high charging current.
This is not usually a problem. It is usually the other way around; Not having enough charging capability.
Either way, the Whizbang Junior and the proper setting of Ending Amps is the best way to trigger a
transition from Absorb to Float. With this, then you have not need for a minimum Absorb time setting.
In fact, with the actual battery amps known to the Classic and the proper Ending Amps set, there is
NO need for ANY charge time at all.
Problem is that if the Ending Amps are adjusted too tightly and as the batteries age, the End Amps setting
may go up some and then it wouldn't go to Float until the sun went down. This is a good reason for
a maximum Absorb time of a few hours. So, just make sure that End Amps are set somewhat
above the minimum battery amps at the Absorb voltage and all should be good.
With periodic "learning" of the Ending Amps, which is, I believe, possible to do, this overcharging would
be a moot point. I hope we get to that too. Sort of like "wind learn" which will still happen.
The question is, when ?
Also, battery State Of Charge information on the Classic using the WB Jr. should come sooner rather than later.
boB
QuoteSounds like you have older firmware in your Classic if you are still using Minimum Absorb time.
That is the reason that your Absorb time is only 2 hours... As you said a bit later in your posting, your battery
voltage gets to Absorb fairly quickly. This is probably OK. It may be that you are not using much of your battery
capacity ? In fact, how much is your discharge Amp-Hours ?
Between the time the batteries went to float and 7:00am this morning, the Trimetric recorded a total of -64ah out of battery bank.
QuoteWith the older system using Minimum and Maximum Absorb Time (and not the newer VariMax or VMX), if the transition
from Bulk to Absorb is quick, then the timer will not count up from your 2 hour setting towards the 5 hour maximum.
It will then just count down to 0 minutes from that 2 hours and then go to Float.
The intention of this Min-Max Absorb time and the newer VariMax version of that is for when your batteries
were not discharged very much and does not need to do the full maximum Absorb time to decrease wear
and tear on your batteries from all the Absorb charging.
I am running the latest firmware ... 1608/1609. I tried using vmax last week with a minimum 2 hour absorb and a max of 5 hours. Everything worked perfect until it finally counted down to 0 on the minimum 2 hours and it exited to float. Not sure why the 5 hour max was ignored when the EA was nowhere close to met. Thoughts?
QuoteMy suggestion, if your battery bank is of any substantial size,
Two Concorde PVX-3050T for a total capacity of 305ah.
QuoteProblem is that if the Ending Amps are adjusted too tightly and as the batteries age, the End Amps setting
may go up some and then it wouldn't go to Float until the sun went down.
I have an email into Concorde but based on advice from Coach Dad ... EA for those batteries is .05% of capacity or 1.5 ending amps. I have no way of hitting so I made EA 1% or 3amps plus 2.5amps of constant loads which has my Classic EA at 5.5amps. So yes ... It takes 4+ hours in absorb to reach the 5.5amp EA on the Classic and transition to float which is basically sundown.
The batteries were unused but 19 months old based on a serial number check with Concorde. I had the guy put a voltmeter on them before I bought them and they were 6.7v each which I verified when they came in 2 weeks later. I am starting to wonder if my batteries are shot?
In case anyone if wondering, here my current classic settings. Absorb=14.4v / Float=13.4v / Max Absorb 4:30hrs / T-Comp -4.0mv / Ending Amps 5.5. Currently the Classic is wired to 2 strings of four Sopray SR-90s giving me approximately a VOC of 82v @ 10.12amps which the string calculator indicated a possible 50 amp output from the Classic. The Concorde Sunxtenders indicate they would like a 0.2C charge in bulk so I am slightly under the 60 amp requirement. Regardless, the Classic hasn't sent more than 34 amps to the batteries except once when there was 3 days of no sun and the battery voltage dropped to 11.8v. (11.8v while under a 2.5 amp load)
I am open to suggestions about what I am doing wrong.
I think most battery pro's are going to suggest you check each cell of your batteries with a hydrometer or refractometer to find out if they are truly charged when you think they are - or to determine if you have any weak cells.Quote from: Tons001 on October 29, 2013, 10:23:23 AM
The batteries were unused but 19 months old based on a serial number check with Concorde. I had the guy put a voltmeter on them before I bought them and they were 6.7v each which I verified when they came in 2 weeks later. I am starting to wonder if my batteries are shot?
In case anyone if wondering, here my current classic settings. Absorb=14.4v / Float=13.4v / Max Absorb 4:30hrs / T-Comp -4.0mv / Ending Amps 5.5. Currently the Classic is wired to 2 strings of four Sopray SR-90s giving me approximately a VOC of 82v @ 10.12amps which the string calculator indicated a possible 50 amp output from the Classic. The Concorde Sunxtenders indicate they would like a 0.2C charge in bulk so I am slightly under the 60 amp requirement. Regardless, the Classic hasn't sent more than 34 amps to the batteries except once when there was 3 days of no sun and the battery voltage dropped to 11.8v. (11.8v while under a 2.5 amp load)
I am open to suggestions about what I am doing wrong.
QuoteI think most battery pro's are going to suggest you check each cell of your batteries with a hydrometer or refractometer to find out if they are truly charged when you think they are - or to determine if you have any weak cells.
I would agree 100% which is I am stuck between a rock and hard place since these are AGMs rendering measuring specific gravity impossible.
Oh I missed that those were AGM batteries. I have some experience with smaller sized ones used in fire alarm panels and emergency lighting. They can show correct voltage but you put a load on them and they will take a dive fast. And often even after they have only floated for a couple years and then testing with a special meter that is supposed to show the amp hour capacity they are never close to what they are rated for, often 50% or less. But I am talking about the cheaper small 7 to 33 AH types.
In your situation I think the best way to find out what is going on with them would be to put a decent load on them without any solar going on and monitor the voltage. You will at least find out their capacity that way. And if one of them is bad you will probably find out. Quote from: Tons001 on October 29, 2013, 01:35:09 PM
QuoteI think most battery pro's are going to suggest you check each cell of your batteries with a hydrometer or refractometer to find out if they are truly charged when you think they are - or to determine if you have any weak cells.
I would agree 100% which is I am stuck between a rock and hard place since these AGMs rendering measuring specific gravity impossible.
Thanks I will give that a go once I have the inverter in place. As of now, I only have DC loads that are quite small. If I had it all to do over again, I would just get FLA batteries so everything could be easily measured. I opted for the agm because I have everything setup in my basement. I still have them in a box with a vent to outside with a fan that kicks on when the battery voltage goes above 14.0v. I wonder if said box is good enough for FLA.
Still waiting to hear back about why VariMax didn't function like I thought it would.
As a total plus ... my WB jr. arrived today and was installed with ease. Thanks Midnite Solar!
you will probably have to dig a bit but most manufacturers state a specified load for the test.
My old Absolyte was .2 C or 20 % of its capacity rating, you just have to know which capacity rating to use. C8, C10, 0r for PV (usually) C20 hr
Quote from: Tons001 on October 29, 2013, 10:23:23 AM
In case anyone if wondering, here my current classic settings. Absorb=14.4v / Float=13.4v / Max Absorb 4:30hrs / T-Comp -4.0mv / Ending Amps 5.5. Currently the Classic is wired to 2 strings of four Sopray SR-90s giving me approximately a VOC of 82v @ 10.12amps which the string calculator indicated a possible 50 amp output from the Classic. The Concorde Sunxtenders indicate they would like a 0.2C charge in bulk so I am slightly under the 60 amp requirement. Regardless, the Classic hasn't sent more than 34 amps to the batteries except once when there was 3 days of no sun and the battery voltage dropped to 11.8v. (11.8v while under a 2.5 amp load)
I am open to suggestions about what I am doing wrong.
Well from my experience you're about right on the money seeing that 35A. Depending on wiring size, distance, voltage drops, panels and controller efficiency you get about 70%-80% of the sticker rating of the panels when working with 12V battery systems. Your total PV appears to be 720W. At 70% you would get 504W out of the system and at 14.4v absorb you would see about 35A. And you have verified that 35A is the number you are seeing. That would indicate to me you only have a little over half the required PV to charge those batteries at .2C or 60A. What I really don't understand is you indicate your system gets to the absorb voltage pretty fast, not sure how long it is staying in bulk.
I agree that load testing the batteries may be in order just to see where the batteries really are.
I may be all wrong as I am no solar expert, especially with AGMs, but that has been my experience and I think others have mentioned the 70-80% numbers before.
The solar experts can weigh in.
Thanks John.
I have seen the classic take in 718 watts and put out 49.9 amps to the batteries. It happened after 3 days of no sun (battery voltage was at 11.9v) and that was the peak before it went into absorb. Does that still indicate my PV is off by 50% what is needed for my batteries? 35a is just the average I see on a normal day peak before it goes into absorb.
On average the system is in bulk for 3 hours. If I go back over MyMidnite data, 10/19/13 ... bulk started 7:58am at 3 watts (.03a) with the battery at 12.2v then went to absorb at 11:13am at 472 watts (32.6a) at 14.5v. However only about 40 minutes of that is with the array in full sun which you can see in the attached screen grab.
Maybe it is time to get rid of the batteries with the .2C rating....
P.S. Sorry ... none of this has anything to do with the WB jr.
Maybe it is time to get rid of the batteries with the .2C rating....
Not yet, you do not indicate a charger???
Do a good bulk with that and then see what happens.
How old are the batteries?
Based on the serial numbers about 2 years but only in use since August.
Given the .2C rating ... I should probably pick up the 75a Iota. Correct? NAWS has them at a decent price. I had a Noco G26000 but have not used it because at peak it only puts out 26a.
Use the Noco until you get a bigger one, something is better than nothing, it will complement your solar bringing you close to your target.
Thanks. It is on the Noco now but the battery voltage is high enough that it isn't doing anything. LOL.
Iota is ordered and will be here Thursday.
Quote from: Tons001 on October 29, 2013, 01:49:20 PM
Still waiting to hear back about why VariMax didn't function like I thought it would.
Well, you only Absorbed for the minimum time because the VariMax parameters were not met.
If you look at the VMX setup, you will see a minimum amount of battery current required AND a
certain amount of voltage that the battery voltage must fall below the Absorb set point BEFORE the
minimum Absorb TIME (2 hours in your case) can start to INCREASE towards your 5 hour maximum.
Remember that minimum absorb time is the default absorb time UNLESS something makes it
increase (count up) towards the MAXimum absorb time (5 hours in your case).
With VariMax, the absorb time will NOT increase while in Bulk MPPT UNLESS the battery current
goes above the VariMax current AND the battery voltage in Bulk-MPPT goes BELOW the VariMax
voltage set point. The VariMax set point voltage is just a voltage below the absorb set point
voltage... A negative relative voltage. I think that VMX voltage starts out around -1.0 volt
relative to absorb voltage.
If you want a longer Absorb time, either increase your minimum absorb time OR adjust the
Varimax current to a fairly low value (just a few amps ?) AND adjust the VariMax voltage
to a fairly low relative voltage... say, maybe, 0.5 volts or so ?
boB
I I have some 600 amp @ 75mV shunts, I'm thinking to use a 1kohm 10 turn pot as a voltage divider to scale down to 500 amps @ 50 mV in to the whizzbang input terminals with using the 600amp 75mV shunt. & DC clamp current meter to calibrate the pot & classic display showing battery current.
Will my idea tweak work OK with wizzbang input circuit ?
Any tech info available for the WBjr for those of us who would like to interface it to a computer? - black box, ARM system or PC or whatever
I know I can find info the hard way by analysing what data etc is on that single wire interface but some info from MN would save a lot of messing about :D
QuoteRemember that minimum absorb time is the default absorb time UNLESS something makes it
increase (count up) towards the MAXimum absorb time (5 hours in your case).
That was the part I was not understanding. Thanks for the clarification Bob. I did see it count up past the 2 hour minimum when clouds rolled in. I assumed that if the 2 hours had counted down to 0 and EA had not been met, that the Classic would look at the max time. I will increase the minimum time a little higher since my vmax settings are already pretty low.
Quote from: phonetic on October 30, 2013, 03:57:50 AM
I I have some 600 amp @ 75mV shunts, I'm thinking to use a 1kohm 10 turn pot as a voltage divider to scale down to 500 amps @ 50 mV in to the whizzbang input terminals with using the 600amp 75mV shunt. & DC clamp current meter to calibrate the pot & classic display showing battery current.
Will my idea tweak work OK with wizzbang input circuit ?
Im not sure that would be a good thing. The thing measures voltages in the single digit millivolt range, and the potential for induced noise in your proposed setup is high. The classic can scale the voltage easily enough. (The scale factor is set using one of the modbus registers.)
Anyway click on NAWs hit buy on a deca, they are only 20 bucks.
Quote from: phonetic on October 30, 2013, 03:57:50 AM
I I have some 600 amp @ 75mV shunts, I'm thinking to use a 1kohm 10 turn pot as a voltage divider to scale down to 500 amps @ 50 mV in to the whizzbang input terminals with using the 600amp 75mV shunt. & DC clamp current meter to calibrate the pot & classic display showing battery current.
Will my idea tweak work OK with wizzbang input circuit ?
I don't think so because the ratio is different. With a 500A/50 mv shunt, a 0.1mv potential change across the shunt=1 amp. With a 600A/75mv shunt, a 0.125mv change across the shunt = 1 amp. I don't see how just a simple voltage divider can be used to change that ratio - only the absolute scale - but I very well may be wrong..... ::)
There is also the issue of introducing noise as zoneblue states.
You could do it in software/firmware but easier to just buy the right shunt!
Quote from: phonetic on October 30, 2013, 03:57:50 AM
I I have some 600 amp @ 75mV shunts, I'm thinking to use a 1kohm 10 turn pot as a voltage divider to scale down to 500 amps @ 50 mV in to the whizzbang input terminals with using the 600amp 75mV shunt. & DC clamp current meter to calibrate the pot & classic display showing battery current.
Will my idea tweak work OK with wizzbang input circuit ?
I think this might be your lucky day !
600 amps at 75 mV compares with 500 amps at 50 mV so that you need a gain reduction of 0.8 times.
There is a modbus register at address 4362, register 4363 that allows an adjustment of around 70% to 140% of the original gain. (+- 32,767) The default of this register is 0 so that is a gain of 1.0
That ~should~ work if my calculations are correct and IF that is correct, a value of -15,625, or, 49911 should do the trick.
(that number is signed)
You should also be able to divide it down using resistors but instead of 1K Ohm, I would make it more like 100 Ohms to keep the accuracy. 1K source resistance won't be as good as lower R.
boB
Quote from: boB on October 31, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
600 amps at 75 mV compares with 500 amps at 50 mV so that you need a gain reduction of 0.8 times.
Doh! Of course, it's that simple isn't it. Not sure what my pea brain was thinking - that's what I get for trying to think about numbers in the middle of my day job.. :o
Thanks for clearing the fog, boB
So it seems like it would be pretty easy to have the Classic software allow user selectable shunt types. But, I would guess you guys have bigger fish to fry...
Quote from: mtdoc on October 31, 2013, 02:05:02 AM
Quote from: boB on October 31, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
600 amps at 75 mV compares with 500 amps at 50 mV so that you need a gain reduction of 0.8 times.
Doh! Of course, it's that simple isn't it. Not sure what my pea brain was thinking - that's what I get for trying to think about numbers in the middle of my day job.. :o
Thanks for clearing the fog, boB
So it seems like it would be pretty easy to have the Classic software allow user selectable shunt types. But, I would guess you guys have bigger fish to fry...
Well, if those shunts fall under this particular ratio adjustment range, then it's pretty easy.
The gain can also be lowered by factors of 2 and 4 times less in addition to the modbus gain tweak.
Just gotta get the WB Jr. board to physically connect up to your shunt.
boB
Quote from: boB on October 31, 2013, 04:20:38 AM
Just gotta get the WB Jr. board to physically connect up to your shunt.
boB
boB;
Been pondering this one since you released this product. Came up with a couple ideas on "how" including a "universal" adaptor. Nothing elegant but just hillbilly engineering type ideas.
I have no need for it so haven't got very far into it.
I will fire off an email with the general ideas if interested.
Tom
Have just gotten back to one of the sites which will receive one of the WBjrs.
Will need to extend the Purple wire to about 2.5 M -- about 100 inches. This lead will run in EMT conduit 90% of this distance. The only other leads in this conduit are the Classic RTS, some low-level control cables, and RTSes for SW+ inverters (only about 20 cm of the distance is shared with the SW RTSes).
I am assuming that there should be no problem with noise, and that this purple wire would not need to be shielded.
This visit is just a drive-by, and will not have a chance to do the total install for a week or so.
Thanks, Vic
Quote from: Vic on October 31, 2013, 05:35:14 PM
Have just gotten back to one of the sites which will receive one of the WBjrs.
Will need to extend the Purple wire to about 2.5 M -- about 100 inches. This lead will run in EMT conduit 90% of this distance. The only other leads in this conduit are the Classic RTS, some low-level control cables, and RTSes for SW+ inverters (only about 20 cm of the distance is shared with the SW RTSes).
I am assuming that there should be no problem with noise, and that this purple wire would not need to be shielded.
This visit is just a drive-by, and will not have a chance to do the total install for a week or so.
Thanks, Vic
I don't expect you to have any problem at 100 inches of wire.
boB
Quote from: boB on November 01, 2013, 03:49:01 AM
I don't expect you to have any problem at 100 inches of wire.
boB
boB;
Can you tell me at what point wire length may start to be a problem for future reference?
Thanks.
Tom
Quote from: TomW on November 01, 2013, 06:21:40 AM
Quote from: boB on November 01, 2013, 03:49:01 AM
I don't expect you to have any problem at 100 inches of wire.
boB
boB;
Can you tell me at what point wire length may start to be a problem for future reference?
Thanks.
Tom
I ran mine around 156" spliced into 18g Ancor Marine grade wire and haven't seen any issues. In fact the Net Amps reading matches my Link 10 monitor attached to the same shunt. :)
OK, Thanks boB and John. Vic
Happy to say I just got done installing the Whizbang Jr ! Also updated the wiring for battery charging circuit to 4 gauge and 100 amp breaker at the same time to handle extra panels. The existing Trimetric sensor wires on the shunt are also connected on the Whizbang extension screws.
So far it looks like everything is reading as it should. I notice that the Local Status app shows the system amps on the main screen which is nice so I can easily compare it to what the Trimetric meter is showing . From what I can tell they are within 0.2 of an amp of each other though today the sunlight is changing in intensity so the readings are fluctuating quickly - could be that one of the meters reads faster than the other.
I changed the Tweaks setting to reset at midnight so guess tomorrow will tell how that works.
It will be nice when the Local Status app or some other software will display all the Whizbang Jr data , otherwise I will be tempted to bring the MNGP inside - more wires !
Larry
Have installed the WB jr. and appears to be functioning but have no sun today. Does the Aux2 have to be ON for the WB to work? As I said I am getting some data from it but with no sun don't know if I'm getting it all. I have updated the MNGP and set the Aux2 to Whizbang of course.
Solarwind
Quote from: SolarWind on November 02, 2013, 07:52:56 PM
Have installed the WB jr. and appears to be functioning but have no sun today. Does the Aux2 have to be ON for the WB to work? As I said I am getting some data from it but with no sun don't know if I'm getting it all. I have updated the MNGP and set the Aux2 to Whizbang of course.
Solarwind
I think you have it set up correctly . I just set the Aux2 to Whizbang and that was it. I also set the Tweaks setting to reset at midnight . If you look at the Local Status app you should see an amp reading on the Status screen and it will be a positive value if charging or negative if power is coming out of the batteries.
Quote from: SolarWind on November 02, 2013, 07:52:56 PM
Have installed the WB jr. and appears to be functioning but have no sun today. Does the Aux2 have to be ON for the WB to work? As I said I am getting some data from it but with no sun don't know if I'm getting it all. I have updated the MNGP and set the Aux2 to Whizbang of course.
Solarwind
If the LED is flashing once every 5 seconds on the WB Jr. You have it set up correctly and it is communicating with the Classic..
I have a question about the Net Amp Hours daily reset .
On my Trimetric Meter it will count down every night , then in the morning count up to zero - it does not really accumulate above that.
So if I leave the default option in the Tweaks to Off , then the Net Amp Hours will accumulate ? If I start out at zero and use 50 amps it should show net amps as -50 ? The next day if it charges 200 amps it will show +150 ? The next night you use 100 it will still show Net Amps at +50 ?
I would kind of like to have it act more like the Trimetric so I know how many amps I take out each day and then know when it replaces all of those . What benefit is there to show a continual positive Net Amps ? Or am I understanding this wrong ?
If I want it to act more like the Trimetric then I would want to turn the Tweaks option to Yes to reset the Net Amps each day ? From what I read in the installation instructions the -AH will still read in the morning from the night before . So then the Net Amps will begin to count up each morning as the solar charges ?
I guess I can find out the answers by trying out both options though I only have tomorrow to play with it until next weekend.
It will be great when Mymidnite reports any of the Whizbang data.
What it will tell you over eg. a week or more is if you are getting fully charged over that time period or are in a Net Loss situation. If so it is telling you you should run the genny to bulk up. YMMV
Have you looked at the MN BCM?, It was made for places where the users may not have any PV knowledge but if the light is green you are fully charged within the last week yellow in the last 2 weeks, red not fully charged in more than 2 weeks so you better fire up the genny...
hth
Quote from: Westbranch on November 02, 2013, 11:29:47 PM
What it will tell you over eg. a week or more is if you are getting fully charged over that time period or are in a Net Loss situation. If so it is telling you you should run the genny to bulk up. YMMV
Have you looked at the MN BCM?, It was made for places where the users may not have any PV knowledge but if the light is green you are fully charged within the last week yellow in the last 2 weeks, red not fully charged in more than 2 weeks so you better fire up the genny...
hth
The Trimetric accumulates the negative and only resets at Zero so it pretty much tells you if you if the batteries filled up all the way over time. In my original question I was probably forgetting that as the batteries fill up the current drops off so there probably won't be as much of a positive amp reading as I was thinking would accumulate.
Theres not much in the firmware yet for the whizbang. As i understand it they plan to add code to calculate and show state of charge in the not too distant future. That will be cool, yeah.
I think as boB has eluded to there is more to come in firmware upgrades for the WB Jr. Whether the Classic itself will ever have a true SOC function or whether that is put into the Local App is a dilemma as with the limitation on Adobe Air I doubt Midnite wants to continue to invest in updates to the Local App. And I'm not sure they want to make the Classic a full fledged battery monitor.
To be a true SOC monitor there needs to be a way to input more info such as battery capacity in AH, a set of charge parameters voltage setting that the batteries must be above and a current setting that is 1- 2% of C that the current must drop below for a given period of time for the batteries to be considered full, CEF, and Peukert's Exponent a number which describes how battery capacity shrinks as the rate of discharge is increased.
The CEF determines the rate at which the AH counts back up during charging to compensate for the inefficiency of the charging process. A CEF value of 90% means that you must return 10.0 amp hours to store 9.0 Ah in the battery.
The conditions for resetting net apps, +AH and -AH should meet some criteria like the following used in the Link 10 monitor.
1. Discharge 10% of declared battery capacity to trigger algorithm.
2. Recharge until 100% of the kWh removed have been return.
3. The voltage must be above the Charged Voltage Parameter.
4. The current must below the Charge Current Parameter
5. Conditions 3 & 4 must be meet for some period of time like 5 minutes.
There are probably other ways to do this but as has been discussed here and elsewhere really determining the SOC of the batteries is complicated and varies with the type of batteries and a lot of other conditions.
Quote from: Resthome on November 03, 2013, 01:58:44 AM
...
There are probably other ways to do this but as has been discussed here and elsewhere really determining the SOC of the batteries is complicated and varies with the type of batteries and a lot of other conditions.
So is it really worth the bother since it is not just complicated but has so many variables that the end result would be approximate at best and almost useless at worst?
And is the basic SOC information not easily realised by just monitoring the battery voltage? It will soon become obvious if there is an overall negative rating as battery voltage declines each day?
dgd
I appreciate the explanations - now I have an understanding of how the Trimetric and other meters make their calculations. Hopefully some day these lead acid batteries will be a thing of the past due to better battery technology. My ebike LiFePo4 battery is pretty easy to predict by voltage and the nifty Cycle Analyst amp hour meter. No SOC needed. It just needs a BMS to protect it .
But in the mean time the Whizbang is going to be a big help in knowing what the lead acid batteries are really doing.
Quote from: dgd on November 03, 2013, 02:16:49 AM
Quote from: Resthome on November 03, 2013, 01:58:44 AM
...
There are probably other ways to do this but as has been discussed here and elsewhere really determining the SOC of the batteries is complicated and varies with the type of batteries and a lot of other conditions.
So is it really worth the bother since it is not just complicated but has so many variables that the end result would be approximate at best and almost useless at worst?
And is the basic SOC information not easily realised by just monitoring the battery voltage? It will soon become obvious if there is an overall negative rating as battery voltage declines each day?
dgd
DGD
That is exactly how I have always taught my customers to read there system. Once you have lived with it for a while the battery voltage will really tell you the status as everything becomes sort of normal. SOC % has always been a pain in the %@* and IMHO never very accurate on most of the meters I have tried. That said I am sure given enough time and resources boB can make a very acurate SOC meter but?
Ryan
Hi Ryan,
Mounted the WhizB yesterday and all is working fine (except loc app), it seems to be accurate and matches the magnum BMK readings. More to come on next sunny days. I'm pretty sure boB will find a way to add soc to the Classic.
Thanks to all including Kim,
Erik
Quote from: Halfcrazy on November 03, 2013, 05:21:43 AM
That is exactly how I have always taught my customers to read there system. Once you have lived with it for a while the battery voltage will really tell you the status as everything becomes sort of normal. SOC % has always been a pain in the %@* and IMHO never very accurate on most of the meters I have tried. That said I am sure given enough time and resources boB can make a very acurate SOC meter but?
Ryan
I have never really had any interest in SOC meters, the battery V of lead acid cells was enough for me.
Then when I bought LiFeYPo4 cells all of the SOC business changed. Now voltage does not reflect the SOC of the bank and there has to be an alternative to V to get some idea of battery SOC.
With the WBjr on the main battery shunt that is all the extra hardware needed for the Classic to also provide battery SOC management.
Options appear to be - new firmware for the Classic to do all the sums - or the Classic making the relevant data available in some way so that some external program can do the SOC calculations.
Perhaps somewhere in between with the Classic not just making raw data via modbus available but perhaps time averaged data.
I'm thinking that with this capability then a simple black box could extract information from the Classic, process it and perhaps control the battery charging.
For my LiFeYPo4 cells the AUX2 input to turn off charging from the Classic would be ideal. The only problem is that there is only one AUX2 input and it cant do the WBjr and charging control input.
dgd
BTW, the WBjr Manual.doc has moved, and now is under the Classic CC:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/Whizbang_manual.pdf
What a neat product is the WhizBang Jr!! Thanks MidNite. Vic
For some early Classics like mine (serial 217), there was a small hardware issue with one of the AUX controls or relays. I don't remember - was it was AUX1 or AUX2? Can I still use the Wb. Jr. with this early serial Classic?
Quote from: laszlo on December 15, 2013, 11:36:59 PM
For some early Classics like mine (serial 217), there was a small hardware issue with one of the AUX controls or relays. I don't remember - was it was AUX1 or AUX2? Can I still use the Wb. Jr. with this early serial Classic?
I'm pretty sure that you can use the WB Jr. but I'll ask those with a better memory about those earlier units
tomorrow at work.
boB
Quote from: boB on December 16, 2013, 02:31:10 AM
Quote from: laszlo on December 15, 2013, 11:36:59 PM
For some early Classics like mine (serial 217), there was a small hardware issue with one of the AUX controls or relays. I don't remember - was it was AUX1 or AUX2? Can I still use the Wb. Jr. with this early serial Classic?
I'm pretty sure that you can use the WB Jr. but I'll ask those with a better memory about those earlier units
tomorrow at work.
boB
Yes you are fine. The issue was the first several thousand went out with the dry contact relay on Aux1 having reverse logic. The WBjr will work fine.
Ryan
Thanks! I ordered a MNWBJR from wind-sun, will see how it works.
Although I heard it before, I was wondering what is behind the name "Whizbang", and I did a search and found some poster of a certain "Capt Billy's WhizBang, the explosion of pedigreed bunk." Pretty funny! The drawing on the poster was in the manner of the drawing of the lady on the midnite Classic. Aha!
For those that live near Waco, TX and like hamburgers there is Capt. Billy Whizzbang's
Old Fashioned Hamburgers. http://www.billywhizzbangs.com/
That's phantasick, Phxmark !
I remember the name, "Captain Billy Whizbang" from around 1970 or so, but from
something other than a burger joint.
I will have to visit them for sure when I get to Waco, Tx !
boB
Quote from: SolarMusher on November 03, 2013, 07:20:02 AM
Hi Ryan,
Mounted the WhizB yesterday and all is working fine (except loc app), it seems to be accurate and matches the magnum BMK readings. More to come on next sunny days. I'm pretty sure boB will find a way to add soc to the Classic.
Thanks to all including Kim,
Erik
I installed my WhizB this weekend at my remote cabin - install went well, and it appears to be working with the local app. However, I noted that since doing so, my Magnum MBK meter constantly shows 100% state of charge. They're both installed to the same shunt, but I can't imagine what could be causing this. Anyone else see anything similar?
Quote from: mjp24coho on January 29, 2014, 05:43:56 PM
Quote from: SolarMusher on November 03, 2013, 07:20:02 AM
Hi Ryan,
Mounted the WhizB yesterday and all is working fine (except loc app), it seems to be accurate and matches the magnum BMK readings. More to come on next sunny days. I'm pretty sure boB will find a way to add soc to the Classic.
Thanks to all including Kim,
Erik
I installed my WhizB this weekend at my remote cabin - install went well, and it appears to be working with the local app. However, I noted that since doing so, my Magnum MBK meter constantly shows 100% state of charge. They're both installed to the same shunt, but I can't imagine what could be causing this. Anyone else see anything similar?
No, never seen that. Do you mean that your BMK soc does not decrease after discharge?
Check at your BMK wires on shunt, it could be reversed.
If not, you can try to disconnect BMK positive for a while and check if it shows thinkn when connected.
What are your batt efficiency settings? Auto?
Erik
Now that you say that, I'm sure I got the BMK wires on the shunt reversed when I reinstalled it. I'll have to check that when I'm back at the cabin in a few weeks.