My 150 classic won't go above 31.5v (stays there even when batteries are full) when choose equalization (target 32.4v).
This is the second time it has happened. I started the equalization at 10am.
Hi JBonfire, Welcome to the Forum.
Is the Charge Controller (CC) in EQ-MPPT?
Have you set the CC to compensate the EQ voltage? If so, in the Temp(eratures) Menu, what is the battery voltage? If the batteries are warm, and the EQ voltage is compensated, then you have reached the EQ voltage.
If the CC is in EQ-MPPT, this means that there is not enough power (probably from PV), to reach the EQ voltage setpoint. If there are significant loads on the inverter, you might want to reduce these to see if that helps.
Assume that you are off-grid. And assume that you are not using the Local App to monitor the Classic.
Later, Vic
Is the Charge Controller (CC) in EQ-MPPT?
Yes
Have you set the CC to compensate the EQ voltage?
No, unless I did that accidentally (still learning a lot). How do I check?
Batteries 102.6F
Pv array is producing 1737W+1210W=2947W between the two classics.
I had no loads ( I had disconnected the inverter)
I am off-grid and I have the Local App to monitor the Classic.
Thanks for helping
JBonfire, thanks for the added info.
SO, EQ-MPPT means that there is simply not enough PV power to reach the EQ setpoint.
Ideally, one would do the EQ after the Absorb stage is completed (or, at least almost all of the Absorb).
OK on no EQ temp compensation.
As the EQ progresses, the amount of current needed will usually decrease, but, the batteries will become warmer, as the EQ process proceeds (even if the ultimate EQ V has not been reached).
Is there a Sulfur aroma around the batteries. This is a sign that, even at the 51.5 volts the initial stages of the EQ are getting done, if you have enough time for the PVs to get the job done.
You may need to take a run at the EQ, over several days. If you have a generator, and your
Inverter has a charger, you may be able to use it to help, if the inverter/charger can reach the dewired EQ voltage.
I would call batts at 102 F, HOT.
It does sound as if your batteries DO need an EQ.
What is the brand, model number, and Ah Capacity of your battery bank?
Later, Vic
Just to make sure, go into the menu (LIMITS I think) and check that the MAX temperature compensated voltage is not set below that voltage you are wanting this to get up to.
That value SHOULD bump up from your default voltage settings but just in case I am wrong about that...
Have the same issue.
During the day, the array puts out enough power to max out the controller at noon...... 90 or so amps. (14 Panels)
These are 4 Trojan 6V L16's that require 32.4 V for Equilization. (I disconnected the 12 2V Battery Bank)
Right now have it set to equalize and has been there all day.
Batteries were pretty much fully charged when I started.
Individual Batt V: 7.30, 7.22, 7.28, 7.34
Nothing is hooked to inverter:
Battery Voltage 29.4
Amps: 9.5
Watts 275
Input Volts 66
Temp Compensation is not set on
Battery Temp 32.2
z
Hi z.,
OK, so at the time that you noted the battery voltage of 29,4, the CC was in EQ-MPPT? Seems that this was probably fairly late in the day, and the sun was fading, the PVs were partially shaded, ete ??
Do you know the maximum voltage and current that was reached, during this EQ. Did the CC ever reach the target EQ voltage?
AND, as boB noted, above, please check the Charge>Temp Comp>Limits menu, to make certain that the High voltage Limit is NOT limiting the voltage.
The batteries are not particularly warm ... so it seems that perhaps not too much EQing was happening for an "all day" EQ attempt.
It does appear that this battery does need a bit of an EQ, just based on the variation in battery voltages.
Later, Vic
No.
I started EQ-MPPT early in the day (Batteries were mostly charged from the previous day, and inverter was disconnected at EOD the day before, in anticipation of trying to do the EQ the next day).
Readings were at High Noon........Hence the problem of not reaching 32.4 volts.......instead only putting out 277 Watts.......when the array is capable of putting out 2,000 Watts .....which it consistently puts out daily.
It never reached 32.4 .......it stopped when it reached 29.4 something volts, and decreased wattage significantly.... that's the issue we're talking about......
Limits:
Output Amps: 94 ........Input Amps: 99
Minimum Volts: 26.4 ....... Maximum Volts: 70
I don't know what those are supposed to do.....or why they are even there......
Compensate Equalize Voltage is NOT CHECKED.
Values are -5 mv/C/Cell ........... Compensation 28.5V
Temperature Window (C) : 25
Controller is in Legacy P&O ......Not sure what that is either, as opposed to Solar.
Don't know why there is an On/Off selection either......is that so the controller can be turned on/off?
Using the MidNite Solar Status Panel.
I'm 100% sure that it's something I'm doing.......since all software/hardware built by companies in the 21st century is perfect and without any flaws......based on responses to any problems I've had with such (clear cache, remove cookies, re-install windows, etc)
z
Quote from: Zardiw on May 08, 2020, 08:42:53 AM
No.
I started EQ-MPPT early in the day (Batteries were mostly charged from the previous day, and inverter was disconnected at EOD the day before, in anticipation of trying to do the EQ the next day).
Readings were at High Noon........Hence the problem of not reaching 32.4 volts.......instead only putting out 277 Watts.......when the array is capable of putting out 2,000 Watts .....which it consistently puts out daily.
It never reached 32.4 .......it stopped when it reached 29.4 something volts, and decreased wattage significantly.... that's the issue we're talking about......
Limits:
Output Amps: 94 ........Input Amps: 99
Minimum Volts: 26.4 ....... Maximum Volts: 70
I don't know what those are supposed to do.....or why they are even there......
Compensate Equalize Voltage is NOT CHECKED.
Values are -5 mv/C/Cell ........... Compensation 28.5V
Temperature Window (C) : 25
Controller is in Legacy P&O ......Not sure what that is either, as opposed to Solar.
Don't know why there is an On/Off selection either......is that so the controller can be turned on/off?
Using the MidNite Solar Status Panel.
I'm 100% sure that it's something I'm doing.......since all software/hardware built by companies in the 21st century is perfect and without any flaws......based on responses to any problems I've had with such (clear cache, remove cookies, re-install windows, etc)
z
'Morning z,
Off to do chores, this AM.
But, one question: What is the input voltage to the Classic, when you are seeing EQ-MPPT, and the 270-ish watts of power?
There are very good reasons for all of the functions, that are built into the Ckassic CC.
Later, thanks, Vic
Hi z..,
OK, in re-reading your initial post, you note that the input voltage is 66 V, does it remain in this range throughout the EQ process?
You can look at Data to see the battery voltage, power, etc, to help you understand what is going on during EQs.
If the Classic is in EQ-MPPT when you are seeing this relatively low power output, then the Classic is saying that this is the maximum amount of power available from the charge sources (probably just PVs).
Please check the Firmware version of the Classic, what is that?
What is the Voc when you see this low power production in EQ-MPPT?
Did you try using Solar Mode?
When you saw the low production in EQ, how high in the sky was the sun, and were the PVs oriented at right angles to the sun, and was there ANY SHADING of the PVs, at all?
What is the Absorb voltage setting?
These Trojan batteries are Flooded, have you taken the SG readings, recently, with your accurate Hydrometer (or Refractometer)? What are those readings?
The Classic Manual explains most of the functions that are built into the Classic firmware.
The voltage Limits, do just that that: Keep the charging voltages within the range of those settings. Some batteries need this.
Thanks for the answers. Vic
That's a lot of hoops to jump through Vic.............not even gonna try......lol.
Bottom Line: There was AMPLE power from the panels. AMPLE.......WAY MORE than enough to go to 32.4 volts.
But the controller decided to stop at 29 something.......dialed the watts WAY down.....I've got 14 panels OK?
I've given you all the data you should need in MULTIPLE posts.
Seems like you're just looking for something...ANYTHING that would justify the controller screwing up.......lol
ReRead what I wrote, and try to find out why it won't go to 32.4 volts...........Maybe there's a bug?????
Has anybody ELSE gotten this thing to go to 32.4 volts???????
What about Batteries being a few years old?......Would that do it?
There should be a data item that lists what voltage the Controller is putting out.........instead of just the system voltage.
z
Hi z, Thank you so much, for accommodating my many questions.
Here is the thing: If the Classic in showing EQ-MPPT, then, there is insufficient PV Power to raise the voltage any farther.
You should check your firmware version, and Update if the Classic FW is not at 2126, or higher. Updating to the latest Firmware is always recommended.
Wish you the best. Some modicum of cooperation is often helpful. After all, most of us here are just volunteering our TIME. If you do not have the TIME to try to help us help you, then, you might be on your own.
Details DO matter ...
My Classics readily reach 65.5 Volts in EQ., when cold. ALL the Flooded banks here are in their 15th year of service. If your battery has not been EQed for months, then it can take quite a bit of time to reach the EQ setpoint.
Will add: If the present Trojan batteries have been sidelined for some extended period of time, neither being charged nor cycled, Hard Sulfation could have developed on the plates. This can result in the battery not Accepting much charge current, and not being able to deliver mush current on discharge.
BUT, this would usually result in the CC reaching the Absorb or EQ setpoints rather quickly, and then not be in Bulk-MPPT, or EQ-MPPT.
All the Best. Out of time, here. Vic
There is one question that I don't think has been answered that is very important...
What voltage are your panels at when the battery voltage is just below the EQ setting of 32.4 volts ?
OR, what is the Voc (open circuit voltage) of the array coming into the Classic PV input ?
If the PV input voltage is say, 50 volts then yes, something is definitely wrong.
But if the PV input voltage at that time is something just above that 32.4 EQ volts, then your PV array needs to be wired for a higher voltage.
The Classic can only buck the input PV voltage down. It cannot boost that PV input voltage up higher.
There may be ample "power" but if the "voltage" on the input is not several volts (or at least few volts) higher, then it cannot bring the battery volts up to that voltage. The power available would be below 32.4 volts
One setting that may help this, IF it is turned OFF now is called Low-Max in the TWEAKS menus. Make sure that is turned ON.
This will make sure that the PV input voltage, if low-ish, will go as low and as close to the battery voltage as possible. It should be already turned ON but make sure.
If the PV input voltage is high enough, say, 40 or 50 volts, then Low-Max should not be necessary.
You asked about the ON/OFF position in the MODE menu. Yes, that is there to be able turn the function OFF while doing other things but being able to still look a the Classic meters. Voc is the important value as far as my questions here and voltage at max power point.
Has to be higher than the wanted battery voltage by some minimum amount in order to bring that battery voltage up to your wanted 32.4 volts.
If it is going to take an appreciable amount of power to EQ your batteries, let's say, 1000 watts, then you will need the PV to have a maximum power point voltage at least as high as your EQ voltage. Typically max power point is around 80% of open circuit voltage (off voltage) Voc.
In your case, your Voc would want to be at least ever so slightly higher than 32.4V X 1.25 = 40.5 volts Voc.
If your Voc is lower than around 41 to 42 volts, you may need to re-wire the PV array for a series voltage that is maybe twice as high to divide up the array properly to get there.
Thanks,
boB
I'm sorry for being a bit short with all this .......it's just frustrating to me.
During High Noon, my PV array puts out Over 2,000 watts at a voltage higher than 60V.
When I was trying to Equalize, it was all day long.....I live in PS, California, and the sun is Hot and Bright here.
There is NO WAY my array could have been putting out insufficient power......no way.
Yet, the controller had it dialed down to 277 watts......
I'll try to provide screenshots........or maybe a Video to show all this today.......
z
Once again, sorry for being a pendecho earlier.....
I have 14 panels. 7 pairs of 2 each in series. (VoC on those is about 37v)
Also 2 Battery Banks. 1) 4 6v L16 Trojans and 2) 12 2v L16 Trojans.
At the time I tried Equilization, I'd disconnected Bank 2 (12 - 2V) and was trying to Equalize the 4 6V Trojans.
Here's a video of my settings. (Maybe my settings are wrong......I have no idea)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYc1YhDQEjo
Also have no idea how to upgrade Firmware (2193 currently).....maybe I need to read the manual.......lol
z
Hi z..,
Nice Video. Your settings look fine, to me.
FW 2193, is the latest, on the MN Solar site.
Could you do a fairly full-charge on these 6V batteries, and then EQ, with bright sun on the same day, or, on the following day with little over-night discharge of the batteries. and do a similar video, or, screen shots of the LA Dashboard, that would be helpful.
Thanks for the additional info. Vic
You video was helpful showing all the setpoints.
Maybe you coudl video of manually start equalize and show the status screen - that would be good to see what is going on.
Like you say- seems like when it is in equalize it should go up to the equalize setpoint.
But being able to see what it is doing for a bit would help some of us who have spent too many hours looking at all those dials figuring out what it all means - maybe we can spot something.
I always use Solar instead of Legacy PO . Maybe try changing it to Solar on first config Basic screen and see what happens. Do you know why it was set to Legacy instead of default Solar ?
Larry
I would leave it in Legacy for now. SOLAR tracking is a bit faster but for this exercise, leave it in Legacy.
Either tracking mode should give the same results but Legacy P&O mode will keep from other questions being asked at the moment.
I agree, great to have that video ! Everything looks good to me. AND the question of the high voltage limit is answered (70V) and your PV array voltage all being high enough. It is running in that video at around 50 volts, plenty high enough and getting lots of power output.
It would be nice to see, when trying to EQ, if the CLassic is still in EQ MPPT ?
How about this.... Temporarily set the Absorb voltage to 32.4V and see if that makes it get to the wanted EQ voltage. When you do that though, the EQ voltage may go slightly higher setting, possibly 32.5V as the Classic tried tries to keep the 3 voltage settings above each other. Float, Absorb and then EQ being the highest voltage but I think it is 0.1 volt difference only.
Also make sure to press update Classic or send values to Classic in the local app. I can't remember the exact wording that sends the new values to the Classic ?
After all of that, IF the Classic still says BULK MPPT or EQ MPPT when the battery voltage is "almost" up to 32.4 V, then either there is not enough power available (I know you have PLENTY of PV available) or you can try manually moving the PV input voltage down a bit.... OR up. I don't know if you can do that with the Local App software though ? You can change the tracking mode to set your own PV voltage though I think. Which would be somewhere around 50V but maybe 45V or 55 V to change the power point voltage.
If you have the Classic's MNGP display nearby, you can raise and lower the PV input voltage by pressing and holding the soft-left or soft-right keys on the MNGP when it is in the main STATUS screen. After a minute or so though, it will re-track itself unless you have the Classic in some manual model
So, it looks like you have things set correctly but would be nice to see it in EQ mode or for you to try setting the Absorb voltage to 32.4V
boB
boB
Please let me add the following, this behavior had been gently reported here, several times:
So, today was a full-charge day, for this 48 V battery, that runs STC String Vmp of 106 V, nominal.
Absorb had finished, Classic (CC) in Float, delivering about 980 Watts (running the Air Conditioner (A/C):
Solar Mode
Vin 112.6 V
Last Voc 116.8 V
CC power 980 Watts
Switched to Legacy P&O
Started an EQ (at 62.8 V)
Vin REMAINED 112.6 V
CC power remained at 980-ish W
Stuck in EQ-MPPT with Vbattery about 54.5 V
After 15 minutes in P&O:
Vin 112.8 V
Last Voc 116.8 V
CC out 980 W nominal
Lowered the Vin by pressing the Left Soft button, numerous times.
At about 90 V, Vin to the CC, the CC was producing about , 43 A (2625 W). Last Voc, still 116.8 V.
Pressing Enter did not start a new sweep, so, changed the Mode, to Solar, pressed Enter. The CC began producing 2600 W nominal, and noticed that the Solar resweeps brought the Vin down to 90-ish V.
Perhaps z started from Float, (in Legacy P&O) and this is the reason for low CC production.
Seems, to me, that when changing from Float to, at least, EQ, the CC will NOT resweep when in Legacy P&O Mode, and it really should do so.
And, z, forget just why you are running Legacy P&O, but, as mentioned several times before, you might try Solar Mode, OR, you might need to be the person that must adjust the Vin, depending on changing Solar, or temperature conditions.
Comments, boB ?
All just my observations from using this system with Classic FW 2126.
FWIW, Thanks, Vic
Vic, your example of the two modes, SOLAR and Legacy both got the same results. This is good !
As far as starting from Float... It shouldn't matter. Are you saying that when forcing an EQ after being in Float, EQ doesn't sweep down in Legacy mode ?
I haven't seen that before. Not sure why that would be ? But Z is seeing the battery voltage come up so the PV is definitely coming down.
The only question is WHY isn't the battery voltage coming up to 32.4V ? Doesn't make sense... And if the PV array has enough power and a high enough voltage, which is certainly does appear to have, the the PV input voltage must NOT be at Maximum power point voltage. If it were, then the battery voltage would be as high as the PV array would bring it up. There's just no other way unless he was running out of power and I don't think that's the issue here.
But I would like to see the screen and voltage when in EQ mode OR in Absorb when the Absorb voltage is set to 32.4V
What if one of the cells in the battery was bad ? Then it couldn't come up in voltage .
I think Z said he has two different types of batteries in parallel - maybe different ages too - less than ideal and prone to imbalances that could weaken a cell .
Wonder if Z has felt the batteries when they are charging to see if one is getting hotter than others -- or if he has taken volt readings of individual batteries to see if one has a bad cell. Or if they are flooded take the SG readings ? Maybe he answered these things already - I just don't feel like going back to reread everything now.
Larry
Quote from: boB on May 09, 2020, 09:34:07 PM
Vic, your example of the two modes, SOLAR and Legacy both got the same results. This is good !
As far as starting from Float... It shouldn't matter. Are you saying that when forcing an EQ after being in Float, EQ doesn't sweep down in Legacy mode ?
I haven't seen that before. Not sure why that would be ? But Z is seeing the battery voltage come up so the PV is definitely coming down.
The only question is WHY isn't the battery voltage coming up to 32.4V ? Doesn't make sense... And if the PV array has enough power and a high enough voltage, which is certainly does appear to have, the the PV input voltage must NOT be at Maximum power point voltage. If it were, then the battery voltage would be as high as the PV array would bring it up. There's just no other way unless he was running out of power and I don't think that's the issue here.
But I would like to see the screen and voltage when in EQ mode OR in Absorb when the Absorb voltage is set to 32.4V
boB, thanks for the reply.
Solar Mode in Float, is essentially identical to Legacy when trying to EQ, because the CC appears to be stuck, with the Vin, identical to that when lightly-loaded during Float in Solar Mode.
YES, am saying that in Legacy, when trying to change to EQ, that the CC never seems to sweep, just stuck where it happened to be when in Float. Have seen times when the loading on the CC during Float was only 2 amps, or so. Then when going to EQ, the CC still is trying to get to EQ with 2 amps of output current.
In the above cases, the remedy, is to switch to Solar mode, where after a couple of minutes, the Classic Sweeps, and produces all of the power that is available from PV, until it reaches the EQ target voltage.
This is not a loud whine, as, here we only manually EQ, and, if in Legacy, one can switch to Solar.
On occasion, when trying to EQ, switching twix Solar and Legacy, the CC can get stuck in a Solar Mode, where the battery voltage is dragged down to Vbat + 5 - 6 V, producing low-ish power.
All of this is when using Classic FW 2126 (not the latest).
Anyway, this has never been my hill to die on … know of a way to get out of this situation. Before mentioning the above, wanted to test this again, to make certain that there would be some data given. We Skip Days for full charge, and, today was a full-charge day, bright sun, so a good test day.
But, many of us usually recommend manual EQing only after a complete Absorb (with transition to Float). So, after re-testing the above, thought that this might be a factor in z's situation.
Thanks. Previously, when we mentioned this situation, it was more in the context of possibly for newer MN CCs, that this could be looked at. It is not uncommon to use the logic from earlier tech products in later units that are similar, (why re-invent, and so on)
Thanks! Vic
Quote from: ClassicCrazy on May 09, 2020, 10:23:36 PM
What if one of the cells in the battery was bad ? Then it couldn't come up in voltage .
I think Z said he has two different types of batteries in parallel - maybe different ages too - less than ideal and prone to imbalances that could weaken a cell .
Wonder if Z has felt the batteries when they are charging to see if one is getting hotter than others -- or if he has taken volt readings of individual batteries to see if one has a bad cell. Or if they are flooded take the SG readings ? Maybe he answered these things already - I just don't feel like going back to reread everything now.
Larry
Hi Larry,
Believe, that z said that he had disconnected the bank of 2V L-16, and was trying to EQ the 6V L-16 bank.
Early In this Thread, he listed the individual battery voltages. They were not too far apart, which implied that there was probably not a bad cell, although …
Based on the current that the 6V batteries are Acccepting (assuming that the inverter if OFF, and no loads on it), that there was probably not an open cell. And, based on the individual battery voltages, there was probably not an shorted cell. Just guessing.
Had asked for SG readings for each cell of the 6V bank, but that was not greeted with happiness.
Anyway, we all are left with a number of guesses, and all hope that the loop can be closed on this.
73 Thanks, be safe, VIc
If there WAS an issue with a battery or cell then it would just take more power or current to get the voltage higher, such as 32.4V.
This is why the input PV voltage is important. Must find out if the Classic has the PV at the Vmp or is it off ?
If the Classic is in EQ MPPT at this time, then it is trying hard to get the voltage up BUT if it is NOT at the actual Vmp, then there is a tracking problem. This is why he needs to check those voltages out while EQing and report back. Better yet, manually adjust the Vmp while in EQ to make sure it really is on the correct Vmp using either the Local App or the MNGP front panel using the soft keys while in main status.
IF the Classic is actually AT maximum power point voltage, Vmp, then the system is just running at its maximum power and either more sun or more panels are needed. It happens sometimes that the PV arrays can not put out their power ratings.
I think these may be DIY panels but from what I saw on Z's YT channel, he has done a really nice job ! Much nicer than any other home built PV array I have seen before. Definitely a smart cookie !
We'll figure this out soon. I know it. More testing and data required is all.
As far as the Float to EQ sweeping issue, have you looked at the Temp-Comp VIEW to see if the target battery voltage is at the EQ setting ? If it is just that it doesn't SWEEP when forcing an EQ from Float, (if that is how you are doing it), then that must be fixed.
Quote from: boB on May 10, 2020, 12:40:27 AM
… Must find out if the Classic has the PV at the Vmp or is it off ?
… manually adjust the Vmp while in EQ to make sure it really is on the correct Vmp using either the Local App or the MNGP front panel using the soft keys while in main status.
IF the Classic is actually AT maximum power point voltage, Vmp, then the system is just running at its maximum power and either more sun or more panels are needed. It happens sometimes that the PV arrays can not put out their power ratings.
I think these may be DIY panels but from what I saw on Z's YT channel, he has done a really nice job ! Much nicer than any other home built PV array I have seen before. Definitely a smart cookie !
We'll figure this out soon. I know it. More testing and data required is all.
As far as the Float to EQ sweeping issue, have you looked at the Temp-Comp VIEW to see if the target battery voltage is at the EQ setting ? If it is just that it doesn't SWEEP when forcing an EQ from Float, (if that is how you are doing it), then that must be fixed.
Hi boB, thank you again for your continued interest in decoding this.
In the test case, here, when in Legacy P&O, the Classic has not swept to a new Vin. It has not noticed any change in load requirement from that, which was needed when it was in Float. The Vin was about 112.XX, when the Vin for Max Power was around about 90-ish V. It was stuck at Vin of 112.X. Manually reducing Vin to about 90 V or so (the curve is fairly flat at Vmp) increased the power from about 980 W, to about 2650 W. This was just for my test condition.
YES, certainly it will be very helpful when z can provide another video of what happens when he tries to do an EQ in Legacy Mode. His situation may be different.
AND, his HomeMade PVs, he has done a very good job on them. Something that I would not be able to do here, gotta have commercial PV, or nothing. He is certainly very smart, just a bit frustrated with ALL of the capabilities that are built-into the Classic (and other MN products). What other CC allows one to manually adjust the Vin in 1 V steps. What a great function for debugging. This plus ALL of the other functions -- WbJr (at very low cost), Diversion functions, Temp comp limits, Skip Days, input and out current Limits (and very fast current Limiting, at that), and on and on. PLUS, this Forum, where you and other Principals contribute, regularly. What other Company does this ?! You and the MN team have built so many terrific products.
I did not want to be critical on any part of the Classic. Many of us were begging for you to release the Classic, knowing well that it was going to be the world's finest MPPT CC ever made ! And, it is !
Anyway, I gush too much, but we cannot wait for the release of the Barcelona CC, the Rosie, B17, and all of the other products that are in development.
Thanks, boB, for all that you do for we all. Take care, 73 Vic