Hi All,
I'm new to this forum and am hoping that you can give me some advice about adding a wind turbine to my small off-grid cabin system. It's high in the mtns of SW Colorado.
I've got an opportunity to buy a good used 3.2 kW wind generator (Proven). It will produce 3 phase AC variable voltage power (200-225 Vac 3 ph). Nothing else would come with it so I'd have to purchase all of the other components needed to use the power. I was directed here from another forum and have looked at the Classic/Clipper info. Would the Classic 250 with a 4000W AC clipper work for my needs or would something else be better?
The rest of my system consists of:
-24V lead/acid battery bank
-720W of PV through an Outback MX60 charge controller.
-24V microhydro generator which is used with a Morningstar load diverting charge controller in the summer.
-SW Windpower 24V 300W wind turbine which we really just put up to get a sense of how much wind we have - the answer is not a tremendous amount but it's nicely complementary to the PV. It's usually either sunny or windy at 11,000 feet in the mountains.
-Outback 2500W FX Inverter w Mate
-Outback AC and DC Enclosures
-Generator, several for different puposes but mostly a Honda EU3000is at present.
I would appreciate any advice!
Russell Hill
La Plata, NM
Quote from: tuckersnocat on February 10, 2013, 12:22:14 PM
I've got an opportunity to buy a good used 3.2 kW wind generator (Proven). It will produce 3 phase AC variable voltage power (200-225 Vac 3 ph). Nothing else would come with it so I'd have to purchase all of the other components needed to use the power.
Is this not the Proven P35-2 model that put the company out of business? - with the discovery of a manufacturing fault leading to broken shaft and the real possibility of blades flying off? Does 'good used' mean its been re-manufactured?
dgd
Was it that one or the bigger one? I forget but if it is the one it had a major flaw. In any event I would go with a Classic 200 and Clipper if you have to stay 24 volt on the battery as the turbine will overpower a single classic so the 200 would be a good compromise between headroom and voltage
Ryan
Thanks for the input guys. No, this isn't the one that had the shaft problems, this is smaller than that model and has a good record for reliability. This particular unit wasn't ever commisioned, it was a dealer display model but it was set up on a pole outside for a while. Buying used is always a gamble of course but this one sounds like a good bet.
I would like to stay on 24V as so many other parts of the system are set up that way. Ryan you said that the turbine would overpower a single classic, but are you saying that a single Classic 200 and Clipper would be OK? Is the 4000W AC clipper the right model to use? How about the resistance value, any suggestions there?
Thanks Again,
Russell
Quote from: tuckersnocat on February 10, 2013, 12:22:14 PM
It will produce 3 phase AC variable voltage power (200-225 Vac 3 ph).
What I am concerned about is that 200 to 225 VAC. What is the wind speed at those voltages ?
It may very well be that the DC voltage will be too high for even a Classic 250. It is definitely
going to be higher than 200 to 225 V DC.
I think these turbines are used more with grid tie inverters like the Aurora or Windy Boy.
I would like to see an MPPT power curve for one of those GT inverters and this particular
turbine.
boB
The 200-225 vac is listed as typical during operation. The other typical values listed are:
150-300 rpm
5-25 mph approx wind speed
200-225 Vac 3-ph (Vop AC) Output voltage Vac under normal operating conditions
400-450 Vac 3-ph (Voc AC) Output voltage Vac if grid fault (inverters disconnected from grid)
240-300V DC (Vop DC) Input DC Voltage to grid connect inverter under normal op conditions
400-500V DC (Voc DC) Input DC voltage to grid connect inverter if grid fault (inverters disconnected from grid)
This all seems to assume using a control box listed as ECM2504ME/300 (which contains a 3 phase rectifier) and a Windy Boy grid connect inverter.
There's also a list of maximum values but it's just the upper numbers of each of these categories with the note that the blades feather at wind speeds above 25 mph so the maximum shaft rpm is 300 at any wind speed higher than 25 mph.
Even though this site is at 11,000 feet in the mtns it generally isn't that windy. The max speed ever recorded on our weather station is 49 mph and that was very unusual, our monthly max is usually about 20 mph.
You're right boB that these are usually used with a grid tie inverter like the Windy Boy 5000US, I'm just trying to come up with a simpler, cheaper alternative since I'm going to be using it solely to charge my battery bank. I certainly hope that the grid is going to stay far far away from this beautiful spot.
These are big voltage numbers but doesn't the Clipper limit the DC voltage that leaves it heading for the charge controller? That was my sense reading the literature, that the Clipper would rectify to DC and limit the exiting DC power so that it could be safely handled by the Classic. Is there a limit to what incoming AC voltage the Clipper can handle that I might exceed with this setup?
I appreciate all of your input, I did go ahead and purchase the turbine so I'm at the "design the system for it" stage now. I'm planning to be using the turbine for a long, long time so I'll do whatever I need to do to set it up correctly.
I'd like to find the simplest, most efficient and most reliable way to do that - maybe not all possible at the same time ???
This is a very remote location and there are times when we simply cannot get there for several weeks at a time in the winter due to avalanche conditions and the sheer amount of snow. It's typically an 8 mile trip on skis or snow machines from December through May. It does have internet access via satellite though as long as we have enough power to keep the system up. One of the other items on my to do list is to get the generator autostart set up .....
Russell
In my opinion the Proven runs at too high of voltage to be used with a Classic. At your altitude it will have a pretty significant derate factor due to air density so it probably wouldn't over power a single Classic. But the turbine has to run at the right tip speed ratio to even have a remote chance of making significant power. And running at the correct TSR its voltage is way too high.
Anything can be made to work - you can use a step down transformer, rectify the lower voltage AC to DC and feed it into a Classic, then use the clipper to keep it below 150 (I think you'll need the 90+ amps output of the Classic 150 for it to work on a 24V system). But the question of whether or not that's practical comes into play.
I think a better option would be to build a mini-grid with it using AC coupled GT inverters, or use it to direct drive resistive heating. Both methods would be pretty efficient. With the first you use your battery-based inverter's output to act as the "grid", and use a GT inverter (like an Aurora) on the turbine output that will AC couple with your "grid" and offset usage from your battery bank by supplying power direct to your AC loads. With the second method you just have to figure out the resistance of a heating array that will let the turbine run at the correct tip speed.
--
Chris
Thanks for your input on both forums Chris.
You're right the air is very thin at 11,000 ft but our experience having the little SWWP turbine up for 3 years does show that there's energy there that we can use.
My ultimate goal with this system is the ability to generate enough AC power to keep the satellite internet and camera system on though the winter without having to run the generator. That lets me see and monitor what's going on up there when I can't get there (and I can have it on my screen at work and pretend that I'm there instead). That system doesn't require much power, about 150 watts, but it needs it all the time.
So I need AC power, not heat, and not a whole lot of it but there needs to be consistent low-level input even if it's stormy for several days. Between the PV and the Proven I think I'll have it covered. If not I'll keep adding more power sources until I do. My priorities are reliability, efficiency and cost in that order.
So with the mini-grid approach my battery bank and Outback inverter would supply AC power to my mini-grid when it's not windy which is most of the time (that's really what I'm doing now I just leave the equipment off in the winter because I don't want to discharge the batteries to the point that they might freeze). When it's windy the Proven would produce AC power through it's GT inverter and would take over the job of powering the grid and charge the batteries with the excess power via an AC charger (the Outback inverter or a seperate unit). I'd also have to deal with any extra AC power that couldn't absorbed by this system.
That sounds simple enough if I've got it right. It sounds like the main question is whether it is more reliable and efficient for the Proven to charge the batteries with an AC charger or a DC charge controller given the power manipulations necessary for each approach. The secondary question is how much each system would cost.
Am I wrong about what the Clipper does? It's instruction manual looks like it says that it would take the unaltered 3 phase AC from the Proven, rectify it to DC and send it to the Classic in a voltage that the Classic can safely use to charge the batteries. Is that an inefficient process?
Quote from: tuckersnocat on February 12, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
Am I wrong about what the Clipper does? It's instruction manual looks like it says that it would take the unaltered 3 phase AC from the Proven, rectify it to DC and send it to the Classic in a voltage that the Classic can safely use to charge the batteries. Is that an inefficient process?
Does the clipper include a rectifier in it? It might, I don't know. At any rate, rectifying high voltage AC to DC is not really that inefficient. The only loss is the 1.4V forward drop in the rectifiers (diodes).
The main problem is the normal operating voltage of the Proven turbine. That would have to be stepped down to around 120VAC per leg. At 120VAC RMS, rectified, you get around 170VDC. Three-phase transformers are not easy to find - especially one with the right primary and secondary windings in it to step the voltage down to the correct level for the Classic 150.
It was mentioned earlier to use a Classic 200 or 250. And that would minimize the step down requirement. But I don't think those put out enough amps on a 24V system without using dual controllers. With a Classic 250, for instance, your open voltage would probably be in the 270V range someplace (270 - 250) / stator resistance of 1.5 ohm (guess) = 13 amps @ 250 volts = 3,250 watts. But 3,250 watts on a 24V system @ 30 volts is 108 amps, which a single Classic 250 can't handle.
The thing is, in the thin air at altitude your tip speed ratio (and therefore output voltage) does not change from sea level. What changes is rotor efficiency due to less dense air, meaning there is less energy in a 30 mph wind at 10,000 ft than there is at sea level (I could calculate it for you, but you get the idea). My rough guess is that your 3,200 watt turbine @ 25 mph at sea level is going to be a ~2,000 watt turbine @ 10,000 ft at the same wind speed. So it's still possible, due the derate factor of altitude, that a single Classic 250 might work with a good clipper in case it goes over the Classic's amp output limit.
I cannot sit here and say "do it". If it was me I'd "Just Do It", but I've been known to blow a lot of stuff up too, when it comes to wind turbines :o
--
Chris
I'm tempted to go ahead and try it myself. The controller seems to be the most likely victim if something goes wrong and that's not too huge a tragedy. I wouldn't want to destroy the Proven though - that would hurt. I think that you're right that the turbine won't produce as much power at that altitude and my wind speeds generally aren't that high. Problem is every once in a while they might be and how long would it take to fry some components, probably not that long.
I've got some time to work this out though, I won't be able to drive to this site until June at the earliest
I'm hoping one of the Midnite guys will chime in with a little more information. Ryan already suggested the clipper/classic 200, any other thoughts guys?
Will the Proven's high voltage damage the Clipper in any way? Will the Clipper be able to deliver power to the Classic at a safe voltage for it? Are there any other "safeguard" components that should be built into this circuit?
Thanks again to all,
Russell
The clipper does include a 3 phase rectifier and brake switch as well as the load resistors.
The rectifier isn't inefficient but when you have to load down the turbine because it want to
go too high in voltage, then you would be wasting energy as heat.
I'm afraid that the Proven is more than likely going to be clipping at higher wind speeds.
Also, one Classic working into a 24V battery bank can only put out 1/2 the power it could
put out into a 48 volt bank (approximately)
boB
Quote from: tuckersnocat on February 12, 2013, 08:05:45 PM
I'm tempted to go ahead and try it myself. ...
Will the Proven's high voltage damage the Clipper in any way? Will the Clipper be able to deliver power to the Classic at a safe voltage for it? Are there any other "safeguard" components that should be built into this circuit?
The Clipper is not a DC to DC converter. It will simply attempt to dump power from the Proven thereby reducing the voltage to a safe level. This may actually never be achieved (ie reduce the voltage) and all that happens is the dump resistors heat up and burn followed by the Classic smoking etc... IMHO.. (maybe battery shorting, BIG fire.. :-\)
I looked at this same problem as there was/is a Proven 6Kw and a 3Kw 2 to 3 year used turbines for sale near me. Not such great condition though as both made noise and the service tech reckons bearing problems, needing tightening or replacing. An there is, of course the difficulty of getting spares.
What finally made me go elsewhere is this high voltage issue. I could not find any reasonable cost solution as I too wanted to charge a 24V (1050Ah) battery bank.
Good luck with yours.. :)
dgd
Well I am in Chris Olsen's camp I would try it but then I am pretty well known for letting the smoke out of things. I am guessing the power is not going to be a huge issue so I would go with a Classic 250 and a Clipper. The only real concern is that IF we get the resistor value wrong on the clipper it can break the classic. But if everything is designed right the Classic should try to Stall the Proven at higher winds and worst case it makes some heat in the clipper but that's what it is designed for.
So I guess in short what I am trying to say is unless something is wrong on the MidNite end the hardware should work just fine with the turbine although it may cause the turbine to not be as efficient as it could be do to holding the voltage down.
Ryan
Ordered the 4000W AC Clipper w 1.6 ohms for the resistors and the Classic 250 today. I'll post an update when I get everything up and running but that won't be until July or August when the road is open. Thanks again for everyone's input!
Russell
Russell
I took a pretty good guess on resistor values but we may need to tweak them. Basically when you get it going lets watch it real close and see if the resistance I picked is strong enough to stop it.
Ryan
OK, I'll let you know.
Thanks.
I have a Proven 2.5kw, older model and one of the reliable ones. It's on a 48v battery and using a Classic 200 with a Clipper 1.6. I was unable to get the AC voltage specs for it. Proven spares should be available from Kingspan in the UK as they acquired some of the assets of Proven and are building the turbines.
The big challenge I had with the Classic/Clipper/Proven is providing the right wind curve. Ryan & boB said they would work on getting something figured out but in the meantime I have experimented with building my own curve by trial and error. Still hoping Midnite will implement learning mode in the Classic sometime soon.
Here's the contact info for Kingspan:
Kingspan Renewables Ltd?Wardhead Park, Stewarton, Ayrshire, KA3 5LH?Tel: +44 (0) 1560 486 570?Fax: +44 (0) 1560 486 580?http://www.kingspanwind.com
Original Post timed out this will be much shorter.
Looking to use this turbine
http://www.ginlong.com/wind-turbine-pmg-pma-permanent-magnet-generator-alternator-GL-PMG-1800.htm
Bought it for what I think was a deal. I bought it without many specs.Just that whole setup was rated at 2kw. It came out of a tswind setup.Maybe defunct company. Their website very outdated. I planned to use a classic with it anyway now it is just using a 250 instead of a 150. Rotor is roughly 10ft. I think actually like 9'9" or something close.
As can be seen really high voltage. I am hoping to use a classic lite 250 with a clipper and get about 1200 watts out of the generator. 6 amps x ~200v
There is a spring in the head for furling. I would like to adjust/modify it so it furls in lower winds. Around the 1200 watt level. I really have to test it out. Idea is to get a fairly good lower wind performance.I know not much power there. But still would like to have 50-100 watts of power coming into batteries. Mainly to cover some overnight usage. Day time handled mostly by solar. During daytime stormy weather I could accept a higher input(higher than 100w) to offset solar losses.
looking to charge 24v batteries. only 470ah. Loads are not great, but if I have more energy to burn I will definitely find uses for it. Wind turbine will be in a fairly mild wind area with possiblity of higher winds mostly in a few larger storms.
Hand spinning shaft gives peak 80-90vdc after rectifier.
I have several pure sine inverter but nothing grid tie. So prefer direct battery charging.
Any opinions.
Thanks
Matthew
I also took the gen head apart and will post picks tomorrow. I am guessing windings are about 18awg. Although it does look like the design works well as a heatsink so I imagine marginally over 6amps may not be a terribly thing.
From the specs the turbine produces 300V at 6 amps, clearly its designed to drive a grid tie inverter.
Your plan to use it to charge batteries, 24v, is interesting but not unusual as others have wanted to use these high voltage turbines to charge low voltage batteries.
I must admit it surprised me to see a Clipper is thought to be a solution to this issue, in your case you say you want 200v at 6a then feed it into a Classic 250. It appears that the purpose of the Clipper is to reduce the 300V from the turbine into 200V so the Clipper will 'burn' off 100v at 6A or 600W from the 1800w made by the turbine leaving you the 200v at 6a or 1200W to give the Classic 250 for battery charging.
I'm not sure this will actually happen, or could happen as I understood the Clipper does not do this. I could be wrong and usually am wrong but I think the Clipper simply shorts the AC outputs from the turbine via some resistors and by doing this loads the turbine, slows it down and the voltage reduces to a level depending on where you have set the voltage limit in the Clipper.
To reduce it to 200V probably means the turbine will be way low down on its power production graph, may be an amp or so.
So getting a consistent and reliable 1200W may not be achievable (IMHO)
Also is the Clipper spec'ed to handle 300V input?
Maybe others more Clipper knowledgeable than me can assure you what you are planning is good.
dgd
I really do not care to have 1200 watt production, just thought up to that amount maybe doable I am just looking for low wind production. Something like 50w-300w of power would be very useful especially in lower wind conditions.
After that I do not care. Definitely want it to furl earlier so I would not have to deal with the extra power. This would require some messing around with some springs. Maybe even have it furl as early as 15-17mph. Really depends where power level is at that point.
Also not sure how easy it would be to modify it to delta rather than star wiring. My understanding is it would drop voltage by a factor of 1.7x.
I guess I will upload pictures first and see what people think about a readjustment of wiring.
My idea would be for the classic to start loading turbine around 150v-200v. From there continue loading it to hold it to around 200v. I say 200v to leave what I believe is a good margin. But if 225-240v is still reliable I have no issues there.
My understanding of the clipper is to protect the classic. I was thinking the classic loading the turbine would keep voltage levels down, but if batteries are charged, or wind really pickup the clipper is there to protect the classic.
Thanks for the reply. Looking forward to other comments as well.
matthew
Okay here is the picture of the windings.
The blue in the photo is RTV sealant. I nicked the windings taking it out. Nothing is shorted, but to cover nicks. Also broke the winding in one spot. It has been solder and sealant applied. I did not know what to apply and figured the RtV would provide some protection. Bad move?? Where do I get appropriate epoxy for the job?
Anyway. A,B, and C each connected to a thicker aluminum wire(3 wires in total) that extended out of the head.
Af,Bf, and Cf were all connected together.
Now going to rewire in delta. Again if I am not mistaken voltage will go down by a factor of 1.7x This should put me in a good rpm range for use with the classic 250.
I used ohm meter to determine which wires were which. Each tested at 5.8 ohms
Now question. How does one connect the wiring to make delta.
Does it matter? I plan to connect A to Bf, B to Cf, and C to Af.
Is that any different than say A to Cf, B to Af and C to Bf.
I have read it does not matter just looking for confirmation. (http://animatt.net/Interests/wind/winding.jpg)
Once in delta that rpm to voltage charts will be drastically different. What was once 400v 450rpm corresponding to 1800 watts will now be 235v 450rpm at 1800 watt.
I would think my purposed idea would work alot better in this new situation?
Does the clipper have an upper working voltage. With delta wiring if permitted to spin up it looks like 300v could be possible. Modifying for earlier furling should help there.
Matthew
Have now wired up it up in delta.
Ohm reading between any of the three lead now 4.1 ohms.
ohm reading between A and Af was 5.8 ohms.
I forgot to measure ohm reading in star configuration. I sure it could be calculated. I have a spare gen head and will measure it there. It should be the same.
Will put the now delta wire stator back in the generator. Give it a spin and see where I can get rectified voltages to spike to.
I am thinking around 50v
Again any idea of what voltage limit of CLiPPER IS?
matthew
Quote from: animatt on May 15, 2013, 11:40:00 PM
Have now wired up it up in delta.
Ohm reading between any of the three lead now 4.1 ohms.
ohm reading between A and Af was 5.8 ohms.
I forgot to measure ohm reading in star configuration. I sure it could be calculated. I have a spare gen head and will measure it there. It should be the same.
Will put the now delta wire stator back in the generator. Give it a spin and see where I can get rectified voltages to spike to.
I am thinking around 50v
Again any idea of what voltage limit of CLiPPER IS?
matthew
You will have to run the alternator and find out the general open circuit voltages but for sure,
the maximum voltage you will want it to clip at is 249 volts for a classic 250 so the classic
never has to have a reason not to turn on.
boB
is there an upper voltage limit to clipper operations?
If I successfully changed wiring to delta it will put me in good territory with the classic 250 in terms of rpm to volts.
Not sure you checked the link to the generator operating voltage. But was very high previously.
http://www.ginlong.com/wind-turbine-pmg-pma-permanent-magnet-generator-alternator-GL-PMG-1800.htm
thanks for reply
matthew
I just spent a 1/2 hour typing up a response and my wifi crashed. windoze 7 virus or the Dell laptop hardware.
Anyway, those graphs are not an MPPT power curve. They need to show power (watts) vs. volts.
It shows power vs. RPM and open circuit (freewheeling) volts vs. RPM which won't mean much because
it is unloaded. The Clipper will keep the turbine and alternator from going above 250 Volts or
so which is all the higher it would need to hold it down to to keep the Classic from turning off from
going into HyperVOC (> 250V)
You also need to put blades on that Ginlong to correlate RPM with wind speed correctly.
Then, if the source impedance/resistance of that Ginlong is very low, the max power point
would be higher than 250 V from the open circuit voltage vs. RPM graph but not as high
as it shows open circuit. That alternator is probably meant to connect up to a Windy
Boy or Power One Aurora grid tie inverter but the curve will depend on more than
just the alternator itself to be precise. Wind learn mode is in the works for the Classic
but will be a while still.
boB
Thanks for the reply.
Ohm reading between phases when wired star was ~11 ohm I can not remember exactly. Delta wiring is at 4.2 ohms between phases.
With 6 leads exposed(prior to rewiring) I tested each set and between beginning and ending and was roughly 5.7-5.8 ohms. This was all measured with a cheap meter I am sure not super accurate.
It seems I messed up wiring the delta as there is major cogging. My lesson for working tired and at night. Have it opened back up and will hopefully straighten out wiring today.
The gen head came with blades. Not sure if they are garbage or not though. Will see how they perform later. I really only interested in the lower end power output anyway.
I will probably have it furl at less than 20mph. between 50w-300w is where i am really interested in. I only have a 24v 470ah battery array. Have 1000w coming in for any length of time would be all diversion load anyway.
The whole setup recommends a ginlong inverter for grid tie operation.
I looked at the aurura ones and not a bad way to go. Properly sized ones seem to be able to be had for less than $1000.
I am just not on the grid and do not have a fancy inverter to simulate the grid.
I was aware those graphs were not mppt. If i am correct voltages should be lower under normal operation(without clipper intervention)
with delta modification ~1.7x lower voltage.
You would not have any classic 250's getting ready for the scratch and dent sale? :)
I know classic are already the charge controller for battery charging from wind, but with learning mode wow, would be even better.
That would just be a firmware upgrade?
Anyway thanks for your response.
Matthew