First, I really like Midnight Solar products. The products are awesome and the staff have a passion for what they do. I would like to share some things with my stacked 120/240 Outback / Classic 150's, mounted on MS E boxes.
The issues:
1. By far the most concerning issue is the gray DIN breakers. I know Ryan mentioned there was to be a minor modification to these, but it did not sound like the major issue was going to be fully addressed The heads of the screws strip out before you can reach the required torque. I kid you not, last night i re-tightened one breaker with the screw clamp 20 times. I have ground down screw drivers to try to better match the screw head. I have discussed the issue with electrical contractor suppliers. Good thing my garage door was shut, because I was swearing like a sailor last night. Some of my breakers now have been modified to handle an Allen screw mod. These work really well. The only reason that I did not convert all of my breakers was the hardware store ran out of screws. I encourage anyone using these to look at my Youtube Video. Please don't comment on all the wires running everywhere lol I already know. http://youtu.be/FYgTA8gEwcU You will see that others have commented about the same problems. Use these mods at your own risk, I am not an expert, just a guy looking for a solution.
2. The aluminum doors need reinforcement. They seem to bend when compressing the heavy gauge wires when closing the door.
3. The Stacked Outback 120/240 wiring diagram is well...it needs some help : ) The left inverter wires don't show what they connect to. The bypass sliders shown in the diagram show the breakers in an an arrangement inconsistent with the bypass slider hardware. This may not be apparent until you try to put the slider on. It is very very confusing. I tried the dual bypass slider but, reverted back to the separate sliders. Too many wires running between the boxes. When the wires start falling out of the breakers after running all the wires, it is an absolutely awful experience. It would also be helpful to outline which connections would go to one's electrical panel box (the one that came with the house). The AC IN and AC OUT's get confusing: )
I describe my experiences in the interest of product improvement. As I mentioned, I like Midnight Solar a lot. I tell everyone in RE how much I like you guys! : ) Thank you for considering my comments : )
I will have Tom and Ryan take a look at the wiring diagrams. We have some that are 8 years old and a lot of newer ones too. I haven't looked at an Outback wiring diagram for years. The AC in and AC out should not be confusing? It seems self explanatory? Can you explain what was confusing? We do like the AC bypass all in one enclosure. When you have individual AC bypasses, you run the risk of blowing up an inverter. Don't ever flip just one bypass switch while things are running. That will backfeed the inverters. Bad things happen very quickly when you back feed inverters!
As far as the breaker screws go..... I used to have problems with them too. The screws are actually reed and Prince. This is something I did not know until visiting the factory a few months ago.
We would be happy to send you new breakers to replace the ones that are now ruined. We use slotted screw drivers without any issues. The screws are better than they were 5 years ago. We have sold 2 million breakers with this configuration. I have never had to replace one due to screws. I have had to replace a small handful over the past 13 years due to electrical issues, but after moving 2 million of them, I have to say they work just fine. You need to use a good screw driver and don't strip it. Once it is stripped, it is hard to get it tight. We push very hard on the screw while torqueing, but then we do it every day. I do agree that they do take special care though as the metal is soft. Let us know where to send replacements.
The door is .100 inch thick aluminum. If it is bending when closing, you need to tidy up the wiring. The box is very shallow. Again, after having sold 10,000 or so E-Panels, I just don't hear this? I will watch your video, but I suspect the wire routing could be the problem?
Hi, not sure what ga. wire you are using there but I did notice that you did not put in those 90 degree bends at the end of the wire that are in the Mounting a Classicl video... at about 6:50 to 8:30 minutes
http://www.midnitesolar.com/video/videoPlay.php?video_ID=5&videoCat_ID=3
Quote from: Westbranch on November 03, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
Hi, not sure what ga. wire you are using there but I did notice that you did not put in those 90 degree bends at the end of the wire that are in the Mounting a Classicl video... at about 6:50 to 8:30 minutes
Yep, mine were impossible to close until I put a couple bends in those battery cables. Being typical male, I didn't watch the video and just winged it from photos and the documentation. I used the recommended cables supplied with it but not sure of the size but it is stiff. Also put bends in the AC lines and the DC to / from the Classics.
My setup is pretty similar to the original poster's:
(http://pics.ww.com/d/495552-2/100_5517.JPG)
It has been upgraded some since the photo with more MNSPD's and a bit neater exterior cabling
Tom
While a lot more expensive you can use very flexible Ancor Marine grade wire. There are other brands besides Ancor also. Makes routing much more simple and is actually slightly larger than the same gage THHN wire. Which did make getting 4 gauge into the Classic terminals a little hard. There shouldn't be any code issue with the marine grade that you might get with welding cable. While a lot of people use the welding cable it won't past a marine survey inspection on a boat.
And if those screws are Reed & Prince then the Midnite documentation should spell that out including the size R&P to use. I agree allen heads would be easier to torque. ;D
Hi Robin,
I, too, have great trouble with the AC DIN-rail mount breakers. Perhaps mine date to about 5 years ago, BUT, trying to be a bit gentle, It is about impossible to use them in the field. It might be possible that if someone had pre-cut and stripped cables and was connecting them to the breaker with that breaker on a work bench, one could bear down enough on the screws to get the job done, but, have never had that luxury.
As you know, the DIN rail is not a very secure, sturdy, or stable mount. Generally, expect that one would need to apply SO much force on the wire's screw, that the rail would bend, in those deeper boxes, where the rail is flying, and not mounted to the rear of the box.
Personally, prefer the Square-D QOU breakers by a factor of 10,000 or more, as they have a LARGE slotted screw, that is front-facing, and is actually VISIBLE while the wire is being attached to the breaker.
Have tried to switch back to the QOUs, but the pricing is so low on the MN CBI breakers, that the QOUs seem to be an endangered species. I was surprised that CBI was even able to get Safety Agency approval on their DIN-rail AC breakers, have had numerous occasions where I thought that a wire was securely attached to the CBI breaker, only to later find it hanging free. Now do a Pull-Test on the wires, which still fail that test sometimes.
Sure wish that CBI would simply copy the external design of the QOUs.
Not to rag too much, BUT, feel that there is simply NO known-good DIN-rail AC breaker available at any reasonable cost. AND, and gently posting about this issue on this Forum in the past, the report was that the P/N has not been changed for the newer/improved unit, so, there is NO certain way to know in advance, while specing MN/CBI Din AC breakers weather the somewhat better ones, or the dreaded older ones will be delivered. Believe that there might have been a change to the body color of the improved DIN, but also believe that that this was not coincident with the improved screw/shoe design ...
Not trying to rag on you great guys too much, but this sure has been an issue on the systems that I deal with ... RAGGING over. Thanks, Vic
Quote from: Robin on November 03, 2013, 01:11:14 AM
I will have Tom and Ryan take a look at the wiring diagrams. We have some that are 8 years old and a lot of newer ones too. I haven't looked at an Outback wiring diagram for years. The AC in and AC out should not be confusing? It seems self explanatory? Can you explain what was confusing? We do like the AC bypass all in one enclosure. When you have individual AC bypasses, you run the risk of blowing up an inverter. Don't ever flip just one bypass switch while things are running. That will backfeed the inverters. Bad things happen very quickly when you back feed inverters!
As far as the breaker screws go..... I used to have problems with them too. The screws are actually reed and Prince. This is something I did not know until visiting the factory a few months ago.
We would be happy to send you new breakers to replace the ones that are now ruined. We use slotted screw drivers without any issues. The screws are better than they were 5 years ago. We have sold 2 million breakers with this configuration. I have never had to replace one due to screws. I have had to replace a small handful over the past 13 years due to electrical issues, but after moving 2 million of them, I have to say they work just fine. You need to use a good screw driver and don't strip it. Once it is stripped, it is hard to get it tight. We push very hard on the screw while torquing, but then we do it every day. I do agree that they do take special care though as the metal is soft. Let us know where to send replacements.
The door is .100 inch thick aluminum. If it is bending when closing, you need to tidy up the wiring. The box is very shallow. Again, after having sold 10,000 or so E-Panels, I just don't hear this? I will watch your video, but I suspect the wire routing could be the problem?
Hi Robin,
Again, I think you guys have great products.
In hindsight, I agree that my wires need a clean up and maybe that will solve the door issue.
Take a slider switch and put it next to the diagram. You will see that the order of the breakers on the diagram does not coincide with the sliders. They were done in a mirror fashion. So, one could wire up the breakers (like I did) and not realize that the positioning is wrong from a visual perspective and POOF!. Some things are self explanatory, but better safe than sorry with the assumed connections.
I think I'm going to be sick if I smoked my Outbacks from backfeeding :-\
I am not an electrical engineer, but you might consider my Allen screw mod if you chat with the CBI engineers. You can really torque them. I will say that the black breakers in my combiner seem to be just fine. I ground down a screw driver to fit the hole before I tried the Allen screw. I guess I would put a label on the breakers to use a flat head only. I think the Phillips head is trouble.
Most people avoid conflict, so you may not be aware of all the problems that people have.
Quote from: Robin on November 03, 2013, 01:11:14 AM
I will have Tom and Ryan take a look at the wiring diagrams. We have some that are 8 years old and a lot of newer ones too. I haven't looked at an Outback wiring diagram for years. The AC in and AC out should not be confusing? It seems self explanatory? Can you explain what was confusing? We do like the AC bypass all in one enclosure. When you have individual AC bypasses, you run the risk of blowing up an inverter. Don't ever flip just one bypass switch while things are running. That will backfeed the inverters. Bad things happen very quickly when you back feed inverters!
As far as the breaker screws go..... I used to have problems with them too. The screws are actually reed and Prince. This is something I did not know until visiting the factory a few months ago.
We would be happy to send you new breakers to replace the ones that are now ruined. We use slotted screw drivers without any issues. The screws are better than they were 5 years ago. We have sold 2 million breakers with this configuration. I have never had to replace one due to screws. I have had to replace a small handful over the past 13 years due to electrical issues, but after moving 2 million of them, I have to say they work just fine. You need to use a good screw driver and don't strip it. Once it is stripped, it is hard to get it tight. We push very hard on the screw while torqueing, but then we do it every day. I do agree that they do take special care though as the metal is soft. Let us know where to send replacements.
The door is .100 inch thick aluminum. If it is bending when closing, you need to tidy up the wiring. The box is very shallow. Again, after having sold 10,000 or so E-Panels, I just don't hear this? I will watch your video, but I suspect the wire routing could be the problem?
Thanks for you input Robin!
Is there a document that discusses where to put these bends? I'm in a remote area with no ability to stream video. I've noticed a fair amount of pressure on the door when closing - would love to improve it if I could!
Thanks,
Mike
Quote from: Westbranch on November 03, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
Hi, not sure what ga. wire you are using there but I did notice that you did not put in those 90 degree bends at the end of the wire that are in the Mounting a Classicl video... at about 6:50 to 8:30 minutes
http://www.midnitesolar.com/video/videoPlay.php?video_ID=5&videoCat_ID=3
I watched the video several times. You actually only need to see it once to get the idea, the bend is made as close to the stripped end of the wire as close as possible to the 'cut off' portion of insulation. Use a pair of linesman pliers, larger surface area than regular or lock-jaw type, ~ 1/2 inch. When bending #4 ga wire it can be a hard one to get bent to 90* so you need to over bend it and if it relaxes too far, bend again. What you really want to see starts at ~ 7 minutes in.
Thanks. My ISP has blocked all video because of limited bandwidth, but I think I get the idea.
OK, so you want to have a good 90* bend so that the wire enters the CB clamp or screw area completely and 'square' to the sides. tighten to torque setting and allow to rest a few hrs or more and re-torque. Copper has the ability to 'flow ' and it can become loose enough to barely make contact.